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Subject: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/26/02 at 09:36 p.m.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020626/ts_nm/court_pledge_dc_4

A court in San Francisco has banned the Pledge because of the words "under god".  I believe that if you or your children attend public school which the state and federal goverments are paying for, then you should have to say the pledge, no questions asked.  I dont believe two words are enough to ban the pledge.  How come people that believe in god arn't offended by people who don't, but people who don't can't stand people who do? Thoughts?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Natalie on 06/26/02 at 09:59 p.m.

Oh, trust me, I believe in God and I am VERY offended.  It wasn't enough that they took prayer out of schools, now they are trying to destroy our pledge to God and our country.  Today I heard a commentator on MSNBC saying that over 96% of US citizens believe in God.  NINETY-SIX PERCENT!  So you mean to tell me that because 4% of the US population feels their rights are being infringed upon we all must suffer?  

This country needs God, IMO, and things aren't going to get any better until the people who are in positions of power realize this.  This politically correct garbage is for the dogs.  I think the government should work for the majority - not the minority.  If 96% of us believe in God, and only 4% of us don't, then why in the world aren't we allowed to pray in school anymore?  Why aren't we allowed to speak God's name in class?

I think if more children were introduced to God's awesome love at a younger age, they wouldn't have to turn to drugs, alcohol, sex during their teenage years.  Since separation of Church & State, our nation's youth has become progressively worse.  Hmmm, do you see a trend?  I surely do!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Zella on 06/26/02 at 10:04 p.m.

All I can sat Nat, Is AMEN to that!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/26/02 at 10:10 p.m.

Sorry, but we are still not "One Nation Under Allah" or "One Nation Under Nobody". Even the President believes in God. And just because two out of three Branches in the Fed Gov are anti-God doesn't mean we should stop believing Him. I'm not forcing a belief on anyone else. Why let a tiny minority push their agenda(s) on us? >:(

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/26/02 at 10:22 p.m.

   The notion that our "Pledge of Allegiance" should be discarded, part and parcel, on account of the mention of a deity, IMO, is going too far. On the other hand, I don't feel the need to acknowledge that the 'republic' of which I am a part exists under the benevolance malevolance of a fictional character in who's existance I do not acknowledge.
   Also, the argument presented by our friend Screwball54;

Quoting:if you or your children attend public school which the state and federal goverments are paying for, then you should have to say the pledge, no questions asked.End Quote

doesn't quite pass the sniff test, I'm afraid.  What you're saying is that if the government is writing the check, we could be made to do just about anything.  That's not a reassuring thought.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/26/02 at 10:41 p.m.


Quoting:
 
  Also, the argument presented by our friend Screwball54;
doesn't quite pass the sniff test, I'm afraid.  What you're saying is that if the government is writing the check, we could be made to do just about anything.  That's not a reassuring thought.
End Quote



 Here's what I believe: the kids in Public school are getting a free education, they should say the pledge out of respect for the country thats giving this education to them.  Whenever anyone does buisness with the government there is certain guidelines that they have follow, why should public school be any different?  If you don't like the country enough where you can't stand to see your kids spend one minute a day showing it respect, maybe you should persue some non-goverment ways of education.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/26/02 at 11:06 p.m.


Quoting:
...It wasn't enough that they took prayer out of schools, now they are trying to destroy our pledge to God and our country.End Quote



   Non-believers can love and make sacrifices for their country no less than believers.  The pay taxes just the same as everyone else, serve their country just as faithfully as everyone else and contribute to society just the same as everyone else.

Quoting:Today I heard a commentator on MSNBC saying that over 96% of US citizens believe in God.  NINETY-SIX PERCENT!  So you mean to tell me that because 4% of the US population feels their rights are being infringed upon we all must suffer?End Quote



...And those 4% should suffer just because they don't believe?  

Quoting:This country needs God, IMO, and things aren't going to get any better until the people who are in positions of power realize this.End Quote



   That's a tremendously frightening thought.

Quoting:This politically correct garbage is for the dogs.End Quote



   You're right.  Lets do away with social security, women's rights, minority's rights, care for the elderly and infirm and let's also bring back slavery and intern the Japanese again.
 

Quoting:I think the government should work for the majority - not the minority.End Quote



  Well, in a way, they do.  That's the beauty of our system of government.  Hopefully without respect for race, creed, national origin, disability, religious persuasion, so-on-and-so-forth.

Quoting:If 96% of us believe in God, and only 4% of us don't, then why in the world aren't we allowed to pray in school anymore?  Why aren't we allowed to speak God's name in class?End Quote



   You can pray in school (or wherever else you want, anytime you want.  God still hears you, yes?)  During recess or lunch or P.E. or whatever, say your little prayer, then go on with your life.

Quoting:I think if more children were introduced to God's awesome love at a younger age, they wouldn't have to turn to drugs, alcohol, sex during their teenage years.End Quote



  Who says non-believers have to turn to drugs alcohol and sex in their teen years for lack of faith?   How do you know this to be true?  
 

Quoting:Since separation of Church & State, our nation's youth has become progressively worse.  Hmmm, do you see a trend?  I surely do!End Quote



   Separation of Church and State is one of the intristic characteristics of our government and it's inception goes back to the founding of our country.  So our youth has become progressively worse since the ratification of our Constitution?
   

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Grendel on 06/26/02 at 11:17 p.m.


Quoting:


   Separation of Church and State is one of the intristic characteristics of our government and it's inception goes back to the founding of our country.  So our youth has become progressively worse since the ratification of our Constitution?
   

End Quote



Actually, what the Constitution does is prohibit the government from establishing a religion; ie: mandating how the citizenry worships. The seperation of church and state is an interpretation.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/26/02 at 11:20 p.m.


Quoting:


Actually, what the Constitution does is prohibit the government from establishing a religion; ie: mandating how the citizenry worships. The seperation of church and state is an interpretation.
End Quote



   An interpretation I hope continues.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/26/02 at 11:23 p.m.


Quoting:

   Separation of Church and State is one of the intristic characteristics of our government and it's inception goes back to the founding of our country.  So our youth has become progressively worse since the ratification of our Constitution?
   
End Quote



I think she was refering to the 1962 court cases "Engel v. Vitale (1962)" and Abbington School District v. Schempp & Murray v. Curlett (1963) where Prayer was removed from public schools.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/26/02 at 11:28 p.m.


Quoting:


Actually, what the Constitution does is prohibit the government from establishing a religion; ie: mandating how the citizenry worships. The seperation of church and state is an interpretation.
End Quote



I agree, but i think this is the exact opposite of what they are doing here.  The court today is saying that worshiping a god is unconstitutional, which I think is BS.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/26/02 at 11:33 p.m.


Quoting:


 Here's what I believe: the kids in Public school are getting a free education, they should say the pledge out of respect for the country thats giving this education to them.  Whenever anyone does buisness with the government there is certain guidelines that they have follow, why should public school be any different?  If you don't like the country enough where you can't stand to see your kids spend one minute a day showing it respect, maybe you should persue some non-goverment ways of education.
End Quote



   Like I said, I have no problem with the Pledge per se.  I don't know the history of the Pledge as it is written, but I would think it was conceived in a time in our nations past where belief in a god was, more-or-less, a given.  So, rewrite it?  Heck, I don't know.  Were I in a situation where it would be proper to say the pledge, I would probably just skip the ...under god..." part and go on with my life.
   I don't equate my respect for my country with a respect for a deity.  I don't feel I can't have one without the other.
   

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/26/02 at 11:36 p.m.


Quoting:


   Like I said, I have no problem with the Pledge per se.  I don't know the history of the Pledge as it is written, but I would think it was conceived in a time in our nations past where belief in a god was, more-or-less, a given.  So, rewrite it?  Heck, I don't know.  Were I in a situation where it would be proper to say the pledge, I would probably just skip the ...under god..." part and go on with my life.
   I don't equate my respect for my country with a respect for a deity.  I don't feel I can't have one without the other.
   
End Quote



I've never had a problem with someone not saying "under god" and when it was Originally writen in 1892 "under God wasn't even part of it. "Under god" was added in 1951 (I think).

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/26/02 at 11:41 p.m.


Quoting:


I've never had a problem with someone not saying "under god" and when it was Originally writen in 1892 "under God wasn't even part of it. "Under god" was added in 1951 (I think).
End Quote



  Thank's for the info on the pledge, Screwball54.  Without a history book opened-up in front of my face, I have a bad habit of generalizing more than I should.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 00:35 a.m.

Ok. The "Under God" part was added by Congress in 1954. Wouldn't it have been better and easier to omit those two words out of the pledge? ? ?

Technically, the words do violate the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state.

The words also seem to designate a specific religious identity for the government. The U.S. may be a melting pot with many different peoples & religions, but christianity is still the most practiced faith. In order for people to feel truly free in this country to practice their diverse religions and beliefs, the government should not be identified with a particular religion.

I know of one case from a while ago -

A city hall which had a plaque of the 10 commandments displayed at the entrance for over 80 years. City Hall was forced by a court ruling to cover the plaque until removed permanently. Under heavy protest, it was finally removed.

Here too the judge viewed the plaque of the 10 commandments in City Hall as a violation the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state. It was a tough but clear decision.

It's not pretty. I don't necessarily agree with the drastic changes ahead in reference to the pledge, but as a country we must remain true to the Constitution. I think they knew what they were doing back in the day. The tenet of separation of church and state is there for a good reason.

Sadly, the next thing to probably go will be the words on our money "In God We Trust".  :-/






Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 00:41 a.m.

The pledge should definitely stay if at least modified.
It's symbolic of our patriotism. It's a good thing and shouldn't be ripped away.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: southernspitfire on 06/27/02 at 00:51 a.m.

ok..anyone beat me for interrupting this ..but I had to say..cuz she is here......GAWD hairspray..that is my FAVORITE pix of D2 that was ever in print....what cheek bones...what faces...what MEN!!!!!


ok..once again..sorry..continue to your regular debate already in progess!!!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 00:53 a.m.


Quoting:
ok..anyone beat me for interrupting this ..but I had to say..cuz she is here......GAWD hairspray..that is my FAVORITE pix of D2 that was ever in print....what cheek bones...what faces...what MEN!!!!!


ok..once again..sorry..continue to your regular debate already in progess!!!
End Quote



  Heh, I like a woman with priorities! ;D

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 00:56 a.m.


Quoting:
Ok. The "Under God" part was added by Congress in 1954. Wouldn't it have been better and easier to omit those two words out of the pledge? ? ?

Technically, the words do violate the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state.

The words also seem to designate a specific religious identity for the government. The U.S. may be a melting pot with many different peoples & religions, but christianity is still the most practiced faith. In order for people to feel truly free in this country to practice their diverse religions and beliefs, the government should not be identified with a particular religion.

I know of one case from a while ago -

A city hall which had a plaque of the 10 commandments displayed at the entrance for over 80 years. City Hall was forced by a court ruling to cover the plaque until removed permanently. Under heavy protest, it was finally removed.

Here too the judge viewed the plaque of the 10 commandments in City Hall as a violation the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state. It was a tough but clear decision.

It's not pretty. I don't necessarily agree with the drastic changes ahead in reference to the pledge, but as a country we must remain true to the Constitution. I think they knew what they were doing back in the day. The tenet of separation of church and state is there for a good reason.

Sadly, the next thing to probably go will be the words on our money "In God We Trust".  :-/
End Quote




 The problem I have with all this is that our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not.  We may be a melting pot, and other religions should be practiced, but only Christianity being removed. The reason? So we don't offend other religions. In the case of god, I don't know of one religion that doesn't believe in a higher power (God) of sum sort.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 00:57 a.m.

I'm so happy to make you happy, Cricket!  ;D :D :)

<I'm thinking in "Yoda" thought here> Davester, nothing to say about my post, have you?  ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 00:57 a.m.


Quoting:
ok..anyone beat me for interrupting this ..but I had to say..cuz she is here......GAWD hairspray..that is my FAVORITE pix of D2 that was ever in print....what cheek bones...what faces...what MEN!!!!!


ok..once again..sorry..continue to your regular debate already in progess!!!
End Quote



we needed a break!  :)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: CeramicsFanatic on 06/27/02 at 00:59 a.m.


Quoting:
Today I heard a commentator on MSNBC saying that over 96% of US citizens believe in God.  NINETY-SIX PERCENT!  So you mean to tell me that because 4% of the US population feels their rights are being infringed upon we all must suffer?  
End Quote



Only 4%?  I beg to differ!  How come I wasn't a part of this poll?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: CeramicsFanatic on 06/27/02 at 01:00 a.m.


Quoting:
The pledge should definitely stay if at least modified.
It's symbolic of our patriotism. It's a good thing and shouldn't be ripped away.
End Quote



I agree, Hairspray!  ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 01:00 a.m.

   I know this wasn't addressed at me, but if I may...I'd say that the ban on worship in the schools would apply to any and all religions, not just Xianity.  We are all probably assuming that the "Pledge" is referring to the Xian God.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 01:03 a.m.

  Oh, yes, Hairspray.  Your post sounded reasonable to me, and that's all I'm asking for. ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: southernspitfire on 06/27/02 at 01:05 a.m.

Quoting:


  Heh, I like a woman with priorities! ;D
End Quote



hey Dave...what else do you like a woman to be without...ok..sorry.....I had to ask.....but your are not obliged to answer that question!!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 01:06 a.m.

   Wait a minute, here...the last part of your post Hairspray, about the "In God We Trust" on our currency...are you saying that non-believers would be inconsistent in their position if they continued to use currency thus marked?

(Edited because I'm an idiot)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 01:07 a.m.

Quoting:
   I know this wasn't addressed at me, but if I may...I'd say that the ban on worship in the schools would apply to any and all religions, not just Xianity.  We are all probably assuming that the "Pledge" is referring to the Xian God.
End Quote



It should, but the only time I ever hear about a religion not being allowed in a school it's christianity.  I remember a couple of months ago when in a California elementary school they were teaching an Islam class.  Your right it should be all or nothing, but instead its all but christianity.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 01:08 a.m.


Quoting:

The problem I have with all this is that our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not.  End Quote



I don't agree.

Quoting:

We may be a melting pot, and other religions should be practiced, but only Christianity being removed. The reason? So we don't offend other religions.
End Quote



Who said christianity should be removed? All religions should respect the other. I don't see christianity as a separate entity. Christianity is a religion just like any other.

Quoting:
In the case of god, I don't know of one religion that doesn't believe in a higher power (God) of sum sort.
End Quote



Actually, there are religions which have many gods and some that have none. Different cultures of the world, you know.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 01:14 a.m.


Quoting:


I don't agree.
End Quote



Hairspray, with all due respect it's not an opinion its a fact.

Quoting:
Who said christianity should be removed? All religions should respect the other. I don't see christianity as a separate entity. Christianity is a religion just like any other.
End Quote



Well, the Supreme Court for one, I gauranty you if there was a reference to another religon in that courthouse the fight to get it removed would not exist.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 01:14 a.m.


Quoting:
   Wait a minute, here...the last part of your post Hairspray, about the "In God We Trust" on our currency...are you saying that non-believers would be inconsistent in their position if they continued to use currency thus marked?

(Edited because I'm an idiot)
End Quote



Of course not. It stands to reason that once a change of this magnitude is solidified, other materials with/of religious reference will be targeted until no religious reference is left connected to the government.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 01:17 a.m.

   Any and all religions can be neatly bundled together under the term 'theism'.  
   I think all of this points to the larger issue of "Morality Without God".  What is the source of morality, or as I like to say, ethics?   Would we know right from wrong without any kind of theism, at all?  Do humans have the capacity to learn?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 01:24 a.m.


Quoting:


Hairspray, with all due respect it's not an opinion its a fact.

End Quote



I'll get back to you on that one.  ;)

Quoting:

Well, the Supreme Court for one, I gauranty you if there was a reference to another religon in that courthouse the fight to get it removed would not exist.

End Quote



Now that's an opinion.  ;D

Seriously, I don't see any particular discrimination against christianity itself. This is a very general religious thing of which we speak, all religions included. It just happens that we don't have "Under Zeus" included in the pledge, nor are there any references to "BUDHA" in the city hall or capitol building.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 01:28 a.m.

I wish I could stay an argue, but its 3:30 here and i probly should go to bed.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 01:28 a.m.


Quoting:
   Any and all religions can be neatly bundled together under the term 'theism'.  
   I think all of this points to the larger issue of "Morality Without God".  What is the source of morality, or as I like to say, ethics?   Would we know right from wrong without any kind of theism, at all?  Do humans have the capacity to learn?
End Quote




No, no, no. That's a whole other topic for another time, I think. This one's exhausting enough. Besides, it strays from the original issue as to whether or not the pledge is unconstitutional. I think it's more like the phrase "Under God" is.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 01:30 a.m.


Quoting:
I wish I could stay an argue, but its 3:30 here and i probly should go to bed.
End Quote



Have a good morning! Civil debating's almost exhilarating.  ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 01:35 a.m.

   LOL!  Of course, Hairspray.  It's just that it's easy to start on one and end up in the other.  When you take the base arguement out of it, i.e., "why refer to a deity in the pledge in the first place", all the rest seems rather empty and falls apart.
   Screwball54, are you thinking that the heathen atheists are trying to outlaw Xianity alltogether with the assistance of Uncle Sam?

  See you later, Screwball54. 

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 01:47 a.m.


Quoting:
   LOL!  Of course, Hairspray.  It's just that it's easy to start on one and end up in the other.  When you take the base arguement out of it, i.e., "why refer to a deity in the pledge in the first place", all the rest seems rather empty and falls apart.End Quote



Alright.

I read somewhere that the deity reference was added during the cold war, so as to help people identify the U.S. as good and Russia as evil. Crazy, huh? To people in the 50's, everything was black and white (no pun intended).

To answer your previous questions-

"Would we know right from wrong without any kind of theism, at all?  Do humans have the capacity to learn?"

We as a society would know right from wrong without religion/theism if we were taught right from wrong without religion/theism.

Humans do have the capacity to learn. But you know that already. Why did you ask that particular question? Sarcasm?  ;D

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 02:04 a.m.

Quoting:


Alright.

I read somewhere that the deity reference was added during the cold war, so as to help people identify the U.S. as good and Russia as evil. Crazy, huh? To people in the 50's, everything was black and white (no pun intended).

To answer your previous questions-

"Would we know right from wrong without any kind of theism, at all?  Do humans have the capacity to learn?"

We as a society would know right from wrong without religion/theism if we were taught right from wrong without religion/theism.

Humans do have the capacity to learn. But you know that already. Why did you ask that particular question? Sarcasm?  ;D
End Quote



  No, not sarcasm, I should've phrased it, "Do humans have the capacity to learn right from wrong (or ethics)."  I'll add that this was a question posed to theists. 
 
 

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 02:11 a.m.


Quoting:
Hairspray, with all due respect it's not an opinion its a fact.

End Quote



You stated "...our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not."


"Pagan philosophy, art, and culture are major threads in our Western Civilization, an inseparable part of its warp and woof?  That the founding fathers admired and adopted the common law of their pagan Anglo-Saxon ancestors, going back to the mists of time?  That they admired the art, architecture, laws and philosophies of the Romans, from whom they took the notion of their Senate and Republican form of government, and of the Greeks, from whom they took the idea of democracy and the architecture that graces the nation's chief buildings--its Capitol, its Lincoln and Washington Memorials and Supreme Court?  Whose ideas for the disciplines of science became the basis of the West's technological progress and superiority?  Try to tear out these threads from our nation's cultural cloth, and you would rip it to shreds.

The very organization of Western culture illustrates the fruitful melding of pagan and Christian ideas--just as Christians combined their religious practices with Jewish forms and traditions in the early church.  The earliest Christian Bibles were written in Greek (the Septuagint), Christian churches were designed after Greek and Roman temples, and even the church organization, with its structure of deacon, priest, bishop, and pontiff was ordered along the lines of the Imperial Roman hierarchy.  Our Western civilization has benefited from the impact of many other "pagan" cultures, deriving gunpowder, guns, cannons, and rockets from the Chinese, an efficient mathematics from India through the Arabs, and nutritious foodstuffs like corn and potatoes from north and South America--raising living standards in America and Europe."

It's this melding our whole civilization is based on.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 02:31 a.m.

   Once again on topic, I'll just say that I support the San Francisco court's decision as reasonable.
   I suppose it's the small victories that make the war worth fighting.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Rapture on 06/27/02 at 04:45 a.m.

Quoting:Ok. The "Under God" part was added by Congress in 1954. Wouldn't it have been better and easier to omit those two words out of the pledge? ? ?

Technically, the words do violate the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state.

The words also seem to designate a specific religious identity for the government. The U.S. may be a melting pot with many different peoples & religions, but christianity is still the most practiced faith. In order for people to feel truly free in this country to practice their diverse religions and beliefs, the government should not be identified with a particular religion.

End Quote



I have to agree with you, hairspray. :)   The words "under God" do not seperate religion from state.  I believe in God and yet feel the words should be ommited.    Although, I do think there are so many more important issues that need taken care of than this.  As for money...if need be, just make the new unprinted bills without the word 'God'   In reality,there is no way to change the bills already in print and besides that it would be ludicrous.   :)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 06/27/02 at 11:13 a.m.



as for the question at hand...in some ways i agree with the legislation, but i don't necessarily agree that it should be a legislation.  what i mean is, it would be easier for all involved to make a compromise, instead of an unneccessary law.  i think it should be decided by the institutions on an individual basis...kinda like the driving age is decided on a state-to-state asis.  schools, courthouses, etc. should be able to recite the pledge if they choose to.  and if they decide to say it, they should also let students/people know that it's an option to say it if they find any part offensive.  and those places that feel it is inappropriate to say the pledge shouldn't receive any flak for it.  i don't think this would be an unreasonable compromise for this issue and it would save time and money to let the individual institutions decide this.

Quoting:

Well, the Supreme Court for one, I gauranty you if there was a reference to another religon in that courthouse the fight to get it removed would not exist.


End Quote



if earth paganism or wicca was the religion in question, you could bet your bum that the fight would exist to get it out of the courthouse...but the fight would be a little different because the government doesn't exactly like the fact that they HAVE to recognize them as religions.  if it were up to the president, pagans would be screwed.  if it were up to him, we wouldn't have any legal base for our beliefs.  if it were up to him, we'd continue to have christianity shoved down our throats.  at least your religion is respected and recognized as such.  try seeing it from the non-christian side of things once in awhile.

i'm not saying that i disrespect people who have christian beliefs, because that's not the case.  but i do disrespect the fact that i'm told i'm wrong or don't have a real religion because i'm not a christian.  and i do disrespect the fact that christianity is pushed on us every where we are from being constantly referred to in the media and news to the people on the corner handing out their pamphlets telling me i'm a sinning heathen if i don't believe the same as they do.  i respect that they made the decision to believe one religion and i don't try to change their minds by pushing my beliefs on them, so please extend the same kindness and don't push yours on me.

sorry if this offends anyone, but i have been offended by a lot of this thread.  oh wait...i'm in the 4% minority, so i guess my beliefs and feelings don't count, do they?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: philbo_baggins on 06/27/02 at 11:21 a.m.


Quoting:
   Wait a minute, here...the last part of your post Hairspray, about the "In God We Trust" on our currency...are you saying that non-believers would be inconsistent in their position if they continued to use currency thus marked?
End Quote


:-)

Surely it's a part quote: "In Got We Trust - All Others Pay Cash" ;-)

On topic: coming from a country where the church is a part of the state, and being an atheist in the middle of it, it seems eminently sensible to try and avoid intermingling between church and state.  It causes nothing but trouble in the long run.

Phil


Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 06/27/02 at 11:24 a.m.


Quoting:



 The problem I have with all this is that our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not.  We may be a melting pot, and other religions should be practiced, but only Christianity being removed. The reason? So we don't offend other religions. In the case of god, I don't know of one religion that doesn't believe in a higher power (God) of sum sort.


End Quote



Aw, you're so funny :D :D :D I wouldn't be laughing if this wasn't such a wrong statement. I would go into detail, but, why bother?

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 11:44 a.m.

Quoting:


Aw, you're so funny :D :D :D I wouldn't be laughing if this wasn't such a wrong statement. I would go into detail, but, why bother?

Tarzan Boy
End Quote



Why is this such a wrong statement? How come everytime you dissagree with me you only come up with insults and not facts?  Besides I know you would support any ruling that made people respect the United States less.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/27/02 at 11:46 a.m.

Quoting:
oh wait...i'm in the 4% minority, so i guess my beliefs and feelings don't count, do they?
End Quote



I am of the belief everyone should count equally. Everyone should be taken into consideration, even the small percentages.

IMO, this issue has to be treated with logic, not emotion.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 06/27/02 at 12:04 a.m.


Quoting:


Why is this such a wrong statement? How come everytime you dissagree with me you only come up with insults and not facts?  Besides I know you would support any ruling that made people respect the United States less.
End Quote




Last time I came up with facts you resorted to petty excuses about my resources. Hey, at least I got you to admit that you fully trust Big Corporations...

If you were to look up in the phone book Donna Summer's name it would come up as: "Summer, Donna." Now, repeat after me:

Summer, Donna - Sammer, Danna - Sammar, Dawna - sammar, dawn - yeah, you got it! Simmer down. Now, you simmer down...

Soooo, what's for your encore? I plotted with the guy that went to Pakistan to make an H-bomb? Like I said, why bother?

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 12:05 a.m.


Quoting:
   
   Screwball54, are you thinking that the heathen atheists are trying to outlaw Xianity alltogether with the assistance of Uncle Sam?

  See you later, Screwball54. 
End Quote



 No, but I believe in this nation that christianity gets picked on a lot.  I also believe that a lot of christian beliefs arn't that bad to have.  On this issue though I'm more upset that the court has such disrespect for our country, that they made it Illegal and "under God" was just the scapegoat.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 12:09 a.m.


Quoting:



Last time I came up with facts you resorted to petty excuses about my resources. Hey, at least I got you to admit that you fully trust Big Corporations...

If you were to look up in the phone book Donna Summer's name it would come up as: "Summer, Donna." Now, repeat after me:

Summer, Donna - Sammer, Danna - Sammar, Dawna - sammar, dawn - yeah, you got it! Simmer down. Now, you simmer down...

Soooo, what's for your encore? I plotted with the guy that went to Pakistan to make an H-bomb? Like I said, why bother?

Tarzan Boy
End Quote



I still trust corporations and capitalism, Its some of the people in charge of a few corporations that you can't trust.  Maybe you should take your own advice.  ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 06/27/02 at 12:14 a.m.


Quoting:


I still trust corporations and capitalism, Its some of the people in charge of a few corporations that you can't trust.
End Quote



It never ceases to amaze me...

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 06/27/02 at 12:18 a.m.

I'm glad we don't have to say the pledge anymore. it's a waist of valuble learning time.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 12:18 a.m.


Quoting:


It never ceases to amaze me...

Tarzan Boy
End Quote



Tarzan Boy,
You have every right to disagree with me If you like a more "Public" form of economics thats your choice.  but i'm not amazed by it.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Marci on 06/27/02 at 12:22 a.m.

Quoting:
I'm glad we don't have to say the pledge anymore. it's a waist of valuble learning time.
End Quote



Alicia...depending on where you live, as I understand it, the ruling won't necessarily apply to you.  If I understand it right, it's only like 9 (?) states that the ruling applies to, and will likely be challenged and overturned before the school year starts up again this year.
Now for kids in year-round school, maybe it will go into effect immediately, but again, not in ALL states.   ;)

I just double checked.  The only states it applies to are:
Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon and Washington state.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 06/27/02 at 12:23 a.m.


Quoting:


Tarzan Boy,
You have every right to disagree with me If you like a more "Public" form of economics thats your choice.  but i'm not amazed by it.
End Quote



Actually, I'm a syndicalist, but, back on topic...Whenever I used to say the announcements back in HS, you could skip the inserted part and keep going and everyone was fine by that.

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 12:25 a.m.


Quoting:
I'm glad we don't have to say the pledge anymore. it's a waist of valuble learning time.
End Quote



A minute a day, taking time to respect your country is sure a waist of time.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 06/27/02 at 12:27 a.m.


Quoting:


A minute a day, taking time to respect your country is sure a waist of time.
End Quote



Yup it is. But this is just my opinion.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 12:30 a.m.


Quoting:


Yup it is. But this is just my opinion.
End Quote



So you shouldn't be taught to respect the country in public schools?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 06/27/02 at 12:34 a.m.


Quoting:


So you shouldn't be taught to respect the country in public schools?
End Quote



Yes you should. But you will learn it in the social studies books anyways.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 06/27/02 at 01:00 p.m.



Quoting:


I am of the belief everyone should count equally. Everyone should be taken into consideration, even the small percentages.

IMO, this issue has to be treated with logic, not emotion.
End Quote



the issue seems to lie in the fact that people (in general) are getting mightily p*ssed off because the small percentages ARE being taken into consideration.  now, i'm sure that the people who passed this stuff about the pledge thought they came to a logical decision, but that doesn't change the fact that no matter how logical the decision is, emotions will always come into play.  i don't support making emotionally-based decisions for public policy, but we have every right to be emotionally moved by the outcome of those decisions.

as i said before, the small percentages being taken into consideration in this issue clearly angers the larger percentages.  and how is that supposed to make the small percentages feel?  everytime we get government consideration, the people in the majority make us out to be almost like we're mutants because we believe in buddha or a goddess or nothing at all.  yeah, the decision was probably logical, but it has created alienated emotions because it was for the small percentage and the large percentages seem to think that we don't deserve a voice.

and on a personal note...just from reading this thread, i don't feel like i'm all that welcome here because i'm not christian.  not your goal here, i know, but many posts, natmc78's especially, made me feel like anyone who isn't like everyone else isn't wanted here.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Marci on 06/27/02 at 01:18 p.m.

Quoting:
and on a personal note...just from reading this thread, i don't feel like i'm all that welcome here because i'm not christian.  not your goal here, i know, but many posts, natmc78's especially, made me feel like anyone who isn't like everyone else isn't wanted here.      
End Quote



panda...I don't think you should feel that way.  I know what you mean, the folks that believe one way will certainly disagree with those that believe another.  On this post, as well as any others where opinions are involved.   As you noted yourself, many people are just  "emotionally moved by the outcome", and therefore they are going to speak their mind about it.  You can't take on a topic like this and expect everybody to agree.  IMO, as long as your thoughts and posts are well thought out, and well written, (and yours are) you deserve respect for that opinion, no matter who agrees or disagrees with it.  I don't always agree with stuff I read here either--but, if I get too upset, I just (try.. :-/) and avoid the post, and find something else to comment on.  As long as personal assaults don't come out of the posts made, I think we can ALL "belong" here.  ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: langdon_hughes on 06/27/02 at 01:31 p.m.

Quoting:


A minute a day, taking time to respect your country is sure a waist of time.
End Quote



I haven't read all the way through this thread yet, but I had to respond to this.

Reciting a pledge doesn't teach respect, in fact, it's just the opposite. It teaches blind loyalty. Did anyone ever explain exactly what a pledge is? What allegiance means? Were we ever given a choice? Nope, just taught to become a chorus of soldiers promising to support our government no matter what it did.

Respect is earned, not forced. And one of the ways my country earns my respect is by giving me the freedom to disagree with it.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 06/27/02 at 01:39 p.m.


Quoting:


I haven't read all the way through this thread yet, but I had to respond to this.

Reciting a pledge doesn't teach respect, in fact, it's just the opposite. It teaches blind loyalty. Did anyone ever explain exactly what a pledge is? What allegiance means? Were we ever given a choice? Nope, just taught to become a chorus of soldiers promising to support our government no matter what it did.

Respect is earned, not forced. And one of the ways my country earns my respect is by giving me the freedom to disagree with it.
End Quote



YES! I totally agree there are SOME people who don't respect this country but have to live in it anyways because they are still young and can't get out until they are adults and can move from their parents.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Zella on 06/27/02 at 02:22 p.m.

Hey! Screwball and Tarzan Boy! You two aren't going to go into this during our nice candlelit dinner in Hollywood are you? If you do, I'll have to make you sit on cones! Laaaaangdon....help me out here, they are going to spoil the duck l'orange.... :'(

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 06/27/02 at 03:29 p.m.

My opinion, for what it's worth. If anyone is in disagreement with the phrase "under God" they should simply skip that part of the pledge. Langdon is right in that saying the pledge isn't going to make anyone respect the country, but I also see no harm in saying it.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: RockandRollFan on 06/27/02 at 03:37 p.m.


Quoting:
My opinion, for what it's worth. If anyone is in disagreement with the phrase "under God" they should simply skip that part of the pledge. Langdon is right in that saying the pledge isn't going to make anyone respect the country, but I also see no harm in saying it.
End Quote

Very well put, Lester!  I completely agree...I only wish I'd said it first :D

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: CeramicsFanatic on 06/27/02 at 03:43 p.m.

I also agree with what Lester said.  :)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Crazy Don on 06/27/02 at 04:28 p.m.

And now the judge has blocked his own ruling!

With Madalyn Murray O'Hair gone, who was the idiot that brought up this cockamamie idea, anyway?  (Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the atheist who banned prayers in schools, BTW.)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 05:55 p.m.


Quoting:
And now the judge has blocked his own ruling!

With Madalyn Murray O'Hair gone, who was the idiot that brought up this cockamamie idea, anyway?  (Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the atheist who banned prayers in schools, BTW.)
End Quote



It's california atheist Michael Newdow, he also sued the government to get "In god we trust" off of coins.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/27/02 at 06:03 p.m.

It had to be a Californian. That state is crawling with atheists. I feel for both the Christians that live in that state and the atheists that this cretin gives a bad name to. :(

Quoting:


It's california atheist Michael Newdow, he also sued the government to get "In god we trust" off of coins.
End Quote

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 06/27/02 at 07:29 p.m.


Quoting:
It had to be a Californian. That state is crawling with atheists. I feel for both the Christians that live in that state and the atheists that this cretin gives a bad name too. :(

End Quote



don't blame the atheists it's not all their fault. And at least they don't go and try to sell everyone in what they believe in.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 06/27/02 at 07:37 p.m.


Quoting:


And at least they don't go and try to sell everyone in what they believe in.
End Quote



Um... what is it they believe in again?

Don't blow a gasket, Alicia... just having a little fun! ;D

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 06/27/02 at 07:39 p.m.


Quoting:


Um... what is it they believe in again?

Don't blow a gasket, Alicia... just having a little fun! ;D
End Quote



God......and I promise I won't blow a gasket  ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: jamminoldies on 06/27/02 at 07:44 p.m.


Quoting:
It had to be a Californian. That state is crawling with atheists. I feel for both the Christians that live in that state and the atheists that this cretin gives a bad name too. :(

End Quote



I've always wondered this:

Instead of saying"(God")Bless You...why not just say"Jesus" Bless You.How would you feel about this? -howard-(don't call me jammin'!)  8)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 06/27/02 at 08:03 p.m.



Quoting:


panda...I don't think you should feel that way.  I know what you mean, the folks that believe one way will certainly disagree with those that believe another.  On this post, as well as any others where opinions are involved.   As you noted yourself, many people are just  "emotionally moved by the outcome", and therefore they are going to speak their mind about it.  You can't take on a topic like this and expect everybody to agree.  IMO, as long as your thoughts and posts are well thought out, and well written, (and yours are) you deserve respect for that opinion, no matter who agrees or disagrees with it.  I don't always agree with stuff I read here either--but, if I get too upset, I just (try.. :-/) and avoid the post, and find something else to comment on.  As long as personal assaults don't come out of the posts made, I think we can ALL "belong" here.  ;)

End Quote



thanks for your words, marci.  and i do want to point out that i wasn't trying to say that you all have been attacking me personally, and i'm not even going to try and twist anyone's comments around to make it seem like you are attacking me...i was speaking as a member of the religious minority, which has been the brunt of many negative comments in this thread.  and i was going to say something else, but clear wording is eluding me at the moment, so i'll leave it at that.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Natalie on 06/27/02 at 08:21 p.m.


Quoting:

and on a personal note...just from reading this thread, i don't feel like i'm all that welcome here because i'm not christian.  not your goal here, i know, but many posts, natmc78's especially, made me feel like anyone who isn't like everyone else isn't wanted here.
End Quote



It was never my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome.  I am a Christian - have been for many years, and this topic is very important to me.  I know my statements were emotional, but that's just me.  I would apologize, but since I wouldn't take back one word I said in my first post, I don't feel an apology is necessary.

Trust me, there have been many statements made in this post that I've disagreed with - and some statements that have made me feel "unwelcome," but I understand that diversity is what makes this country great, and if everyone had the same opinions and beliefs, our country would be boring indeed.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/27/02 at 08:53 p.m.

To tell you the truth, Alicia, Californians are probably more offended by my post than atheists. ;)

Quoting:


don't blame the atheists it's not all their fault. And at least they don't go and try to sell everyone in what they believe in.
End Quote

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: langdon_hughes on 06/27/02 at 09:22 p.m.

Quoting:
To tell you the truth, Alicia, Californians are probably more offended by my post than atheists. ;)

End Quote



*looking up from the bottle of zinfandel I'm uncorking*

I'm sorry what? I can't be offended, I'm too busy making dinner for TB, SB, and Zella for our poolside picnic. What was the disparaging California remark? Did it have to do with the size of my thighs?

Oh wait. That's right, California is "crawling" with atheists. Yup. And Christians and Muslims and Jews and Witches...

Why should that offend me?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: dagwood on 06/27/02 at 09:32 p.m.


Quoting:
My opinion, for what it's worth. If anyone is in disagreement with the phrase "under God" they should simply skip that part of the pledge. Langdon is right in that saying the pledge isn't going to make anyone respect the country, but I also see no harm in saying it.
End Quote



This is exactly what I thought when I first heard of the decision.  But, to point out the other side, they could take the words out and if you want to you can say it.  (I would keep Under God in but that is just my opinion.)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/27/02 at 09:39 p.m.

I forgot. Nothing could offend you. Right Langdon? ;)

Quoting:


*looking up from the bottle of zinfandel I'm uncorking*

I'm sorry what? I can't be offended, I'm too busy making dinner for TB, SB, and Zella for our poolside picnic. What was the disparaging California remark? Did it have to do with the size of my thighs?

Oh wait. That's right, California is "crawling" with atheists. Yup. And Christians and Muslims and Jews and Witches...

Why should that offend me?
End Quote

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 09:42 p.m.


Quoting:


It was never my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome.  I am a Christian - have been for many years, and this topic is very important to me.  I know my statements were emotional, but that's just me.  I would apologize, but since I wouldn't take back one word I said in my first post, I don't feel an apology is necessary.

Trust me, there have been many statements made in this post that I've disagreed with - and some statements that have made me feel "unwelcome," but I understand that diversity is what makes this country great, and if everyone had the same opinions and beliefs, our country would be boring indeed.  
End Quote



   This kind of thread is nothing new to this board, at least since I've been a member, so speak your mind and post confidently knowing that most, if not all, of us here discuss the topic not the person.  Right J.C.?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Natalie on 06/27/02 at 09:46 p.m.


Quoting:
discuss the topic not the person
End Quote



I couldn't agree more.  Well said, Davester.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/27/02 at 09:48 p.m.

C'est Moi?!! :o

Quoting:


   This kind of thread is nothing new to this board, at least since I've been a member, so speak your mind and post confidently knowing that most, if not all, of us here discuss the topic not the person.  Right J.C.?
End Quote

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/27/02 at 09:49 p.m.

Does that mean I should take back all those posts that said how beautiful you are?! ;)

Quoting:


I couldn't agree more.  Well said, Davester.
End Quote

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: langdon_hughes on 06/27/02 at 09:49 p.m.

Quoting:
I forgot. Nothing could offend you. Right Langdon? ;)

End Quote



Actually, I find myself frequently offended, but I try to distinguish between the issue and my own personal reactions to the issue and remember that we don't know everybody's life stories. Then I open another bottle of wine and thank God, god, Allah, Buddah, Mom, fill in the blank that I live in the Land of Therapists.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Natalie on 06/27/02 at 09:51 p.m.


Quoting:
Does that mean I should take back all those posts that said how beautiful you are?! ;)

End Quote



No way!  I loved your posts - you were so kind.  You can make posts like that anytime, trust me, I won't mind! ;) ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/27/02 at 09:58 p.m.

But Langdon. We live in a society that would rather listen to their hearts than their heads. (No one here, I hope.) I was just kidding on Californians (although the press wants you to believe that California is crawling with atheists.) The issue on this thread calls for personal reactions. But our "founding fathers" did not write the Pledge of Allegiance to please everybody, because they only knew God. And they are not alive to defend themselves today. :'(

Quoting:


Actually, I find myself frequently offended, but I try to distinguish between the issue and my own personal reactions to the issue and remember that we don't know everybody's life stories. Then I open another bottle of wine and thank God, god, Allah, Buddah, Mom, fill in the blank that I live in the Land of Therapists.
End Quote

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 10:36 p.m.


Quoting:


 No, but I believe in this nation that christianity gets picked on a lot.  I also believe that a lot of christian beliefs arn't that bad to have.  On this issue though I'm more upset that the court has such disrespect for our country, that they made it Illegal and "under God" was just the scapegoat.  
End Quote



   Yes, it may seem that way, but I think that's mostly bacause Xianity is the predominant faith in this country, as well as the faith of the founders.
   I still maintain that throwing out the Pledge in its entirety was going a bit far.  I say take it back to it's pre-1951 ('52?) form.  This transforms the Pledge immensely, IMO, from a govenment endorsement of theism (the faithfull would say 'monotheism') and restore its original meaning.
   Furthermore,  if our Constitution guarantees the right of non-belief, how can the official pledge to uphold that Constitution contain a mandatory reference to a deity in which we are not required by law to believe?
   

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/27/02 at 10:43 p.m.


Quoting:


   Yes, it may seem that way, but I think that's mostly bacause Xianity is the predominant faith in this country, as well as the faith of the founders.
   I still maintain that throwing out the Pledge in its entirety was going a bit far.  I say take it back to it's pre-1951 ('52?) form.  This transforms the Pledge immensely, IMO, from a govenment endorsement of theism (the faithfull would say 'monotheism') and restore its original meaning.
   Furthermore,  if our Constitution guarantees the right of non-belief, how can the official pledge to uphold that Constitution contain a mandatory reference to a deity in which we are not required by law to believe?
   
End Quote



I can see your point here since christianity is the majority in our society, odds of probability would be that christianity would get detested/picked on more.  The question is how far are we going to take it? I'm definately aginst taken "In god we trust of off the money.  Its hard enough to get coins/bills to work in vendidng/game/paper machines as it is, and changing the money would just make the problem worse.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 10:47 p.m.


Quoting:

I'm definately aginst taken "In god we trust of off the money.  Its hard enough to get coins/bills to work in vendidng/game/paper machines as it is, and changing the money would just make the problem worse.
End Quote



   LOL!  Yeah, and when I want a Coke, I want it NOW, dammit!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Indy Gent on 06/27/02 at 10:51 p.m.

LOL! Dave.
And I apologize to all the Californians, atheists or not, that I have offended. :-X

Quoting:


   LOL!  Yeah, and when I want a Coke, I want it NOW, dammit!
End Quote

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/27/02 at 10:54 p.m.

   Nah, forget it, bro.  I need to use the winking faces more often.  ;) ;) ;) :)
  I just wanted to add that it's generally accepted that the city Berkeley is not of this earth.  If you ever hear me muttering something like "Imagine you're rolling a three-sided die...", "I'm Monty Hall! I know where all 98 booby prizes are..."
or "LSD melts in your mind, not in your hand...",  just put me out of my misery.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 06/28/02 at 09:59 a.m.



Quoting:
most, if not all, of us here discuss the topic not the person.
End Quote




i'm pretty sure that this comment was in no way aimed at me, but i can't help but wonder.  i really hope it isn't in reference to my using a specific post to illustrate a point, because that would be a gross misinterpretation of my words.  all i did was point out a post as an example of why i feel somewhat unwelcome here as part of a minority of alternative belief(s).  in no way did i discuss her as a person, and if you want to get right down to it, i did't even discuss her post, either.  i only mentioned it as an example because it was the one that made the biggest impression.  
like i said, i don't think that this comment was aimed at me because i didn't discuss anyone or attack anyone.  i'm not here to do that.  i just wanted to clarify in case there was a misunderstanding.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/28/02 at 10:00 a.m.


Quoting:

IMO, this issue has to be treated with logic, not emotion.
End Quote



Just wanted to explain I meant the above statement in reference to the decision-making process in the courts, not in the reactions and expressions of our opinion.

This is a very passionate subject.  ;)

I am very, very proud of us for respecting each other's opinion even if we disagree with it and for being able do debate the issue successfully in general.  :)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 06/28/02 at 11:30 a.m.


Quoting:


Just wanted to explain I meant the above statement in reference to the decision-making process in the courts, not in the reactions and expressions of our opinion.

This is a very passionate subject.  ;)

I am very, very proud of us for respecting each other's opinion even if we disagree with it and for being able do debate the issue successfully in general.  :)
End Quote



I'm suprised at me you know how I usually blow up  :-[ ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/28/02 at 09:57 p.m.


Quoting:




i'm pretty sure that this comment was in no way aimed at me, but i can't help but wonder.  i really hope it isn't in reference to my using a specific post to illustrate a point, because that would be a gross misinterpretation of my words.  all i did was point out a post as an example of why i feel somewhat unwelcome here as part of a minority of alternative belief(s).  in no way did i discuss her as a person, and if you want to get right down to it, i did't even discuss her post, either.  i only mentioned it as an example because it was the one that made the biggest impression.  
like i said, i don't think that this comment was aimed at me because i didn't discuss anyone or attack anyone.  i'm not here to do that.  i just wanted to clarify in case there was a misunderstanding.
End Quote



   No, panda, my comments we're not aimed at you or anyone in particullar, well, maybe a slight elbow in JC's ribs... ;)
   Re-reading all of your posts in this thread I detect a little defensiveness on your part, which I think was unnecessary though not improper.
   I can also tell (from your text) that your 'worldview' may be, more-or-less, similar to mine which is nice to see.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: merry-beth on 06/29/02 at 00:09 a.m.

I agree that the most "user-friendly" decision would be to just eliminate the words "under God".  I wasn't suprised by the decision.  I'm just afraid that this will lead to bigger arguments.  For example, the majority of public schools in this country are excused for a "winter break" (a.k.a Christmas), Easter, and so forth.  Notice that the schools do not release for other religious holidays.  Will this lead to a change in holiday closure (as in...wil there no longer be a holiday for Easter, etc.) ?  Or will we have to take off every day because there is "something" being celebrated? (anybody get what I'm saying? I can seem to phrase it right....). Will there be a lawsuit that includes the argument "all the Christians get holidays.  Why can't school shut down for (fill in the blank)?" Sorry...scratch that...I have no idea what my point is anymore....
 I apologize for the sarcasm.  I am not a very religious person, but I do have to consider what will come of this.  It just seems that in a time when our nation needs to come together, there are to many things pulling us apart.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 06/29/02 at 00:29 a.m.


Quoting:
I agree that the most "user-friendly" decision would be to just eliminate the words "under God".  I wasn't suprised by the decision.  I'm just afraid that this will lead to bigger arguments.  For example, the majority of public schools in this country are excused for a "winter break" (a.k.a Christmas), Easter, and so forth.  Notice that the schools do not release for other religious holidays.  Will this lead to a change in holiday closure (as in...wil there no longer be a holiday for Easter, etc.) ?  Or will we have to take off every day because there is "something" being celebrated? (anybody get what I'm saying? I can seem to phrase it right....). Will there be a lawsuit that includes the argument "all the Christians get holidays.  Why can't school shut down for (fill in the blank)?" Sorry...scratch that...I have no idea what my point is anymore....
 I apologize for the sarcasm.  I am not a very religious person, but I do have to consider what will come of this.  It just seems that in a time when our nation needs to come together, there are to many things pulling us apart.  
End Quote



Well, in my old HS, we used to get the Jewish holidays too :D No objection there on my behalf, but I took my own proper holidays whenever I damwell pleased too :D :D

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/29/02 at 00:31 a.m.


Quoting:
I agree that the most "user-friendly" decision would be to just eliminate the words "under God".  I wasn't suprised by the decision.  I'm just afraid that this will lead to bigger arguments.  For example, the majority of public schools in this country are excused for a "winter break" (a.k.a Christmas), Easter, and so forth.  Notice that the schools do not release for other religious holidays.  Will this lead to a change in holiday closure (as in...wil there no longer be a holiday for Easter, etc.) ?  Or will we have to take off every day because there is "something" being celebrated? (anybody get what I'm saying? I can seem to phrase it right....). Will there be a lawsuit that includes the argument "all the Christians get holidays.  Why can't school shut down for (fill in the blank)?" Sorry...scratch that...I have no idea what my point is anymore....
 I apologize for the sarcasm.  I am not a very religious person, but I do have to consider what will come of this.  It just seems that in a time when our nation needs to come together, there are to many things pulling us apart.  
End Quote



When I was in High School, the Jewish Kids got to take their own holidays off, but they got the regular ones off two. I don't think the federal government would ever declare Easter or christmas no longer a national holiday, If anything well get more federal ho;idays before we get less.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/29/02 at 00:55 a.m.

  Aye, yae, yae...One step at a time, merry-beth.  I see what you're saying but the 'package deal' is waaay to optimistic.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 06/29/02 at 01:16 a.m.


Quoting:
Hey! Screwball and Tarzan Boy! You two aren't going to go into this during our nice candlelit dinner in Hollywood are you? If you do, I'll have to make you sit on cones! Laaaaangdon....help me out here, they are going to spoil the duck l'orange.... :'(
End Quote



Ooooow! Unless the cone is upside-down; then it's ok, I guess (like one of those Jetsons furniture pieces). Whoa! I missed this whole candle-light dinner fiasco and I just got a RL dark-grey suit too (won't be buying or eating anything for a while now...). I was gonna go with the MIB/Pulp Fiction drag, but the salesman was very convincing - this dude could sell an Emperor a set of new clothes! Is this RSVP or do I just show up fashionably late and impromptu?

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: merrybeth on 06/29/02 at 11:09 a.m.

Quoting:
 Aye, yae, yae...One step at a time, merry-beth. I see what you're saying but the 'package deal' is waaay to optimistic.
End Quote



actually,I'm NOT in support of that....I just think that this opens the door for ridiculous lawsuits.  last night, as I was signing off, I caught a debate on Fox news.  apparantly a woman of Middle Eastern descent went to get a driver's license photo taken (I believe it was in California, of all places).  Her religion provides that she wear a scarf over her head and covering her face.  The person taking her picture told her she needed to remove it for the license.  You can see where this is going.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/29/02 at 11:27 a.m.

   Sure, I understand what you're saying and I agree.  I hope that people don't lose sight of what this movement is trying to accomplish.  It's not tit-for-tat and compromise on less harmfull issues is always the way to go.  I suppose the quagmire is deciding exactly what is and is not harmfull.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 06/29/02 at 02:12 p.m.


Quoting:I suppose the quagmire is deciding exactly what is and is not harmfull.
End Quote



And there will never be a consensus there because it's always relative to the individual.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 06/29/02 at 02:19 p.m.

Maybe this version of the Pledge might be suitable... this made the rounds on many radio morning shows the other day.


I may or may not pledge allegiance -- depending on if my parents let me -- to the flag of the less than United States of America.  And, to the Republic, for which that pagan symbol which I reserve the right to burn, stands.  One overly litigious nation...under the arbitrary sway of a random Universe controlled solely by immutable natural laws...often divided...with ever decreasing liberty...and justice...for those with a law degree and too much free time.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Banasy on 06/29/02 at 09:44 p.m.

If the words "under God" was not added until 1954, why can't they just amend it again? My goodness, what is all the fuss about?
To me, separation of church and state is up to one's own interpretation... and the meaning to me is that the government will not tell me how to or WHO to worship in any way.  IMO, it was probably added in view of Henry VIII's creating a new religion to suit HIS needs when the Pope declined to give him an anullment so he could rid himself of Catherine of Aragon. In any case, IMO the government has no business making theological policy, and the various religions have no business governing anything but their own churches.
Do I think that either saying it/not saying it is going to hinder our child's development in any way? No. I see no harm in trying to instill a little respect for the country and the flag. I don't see a lot of little zombies running around without an independent thought of their own because they heard the Pledge in school. What they may decide to do down the road is up to them. Many times they are influenced by their parent's prejudices anyway, which, IMO, will cause more damage than saying the Pledge. However, if a person disagrees with pledging their allegiance to The United States and the Flag, or considers it to be a waste of time by saying the pledge, OK. Don't say it. Use that minute for personal contemplation, daydreaming, birdwatching, whatever...maybe brushing up on spelling would be good, too.

Perhaps there should be a little question on the enrollment application: My child ___will ___will not be saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/29/02 at 09:57 p.m.


Quoting:
If the words "under God" was not added until 1954, why can't they just amend it again?
End Quote


 Theoretically they could, but it is an election year and no politician or supreme court judge is going to suport this during an election year. Even the judge that decided this pulled a 180.


Quoting:

Perhaps there should be a little question on the enrollment application: My child ___will ___will not be saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

End Quote



Good Idea, but once "under god" is taken out, and a parent marks no, their kid should be ineligible for further enrollment in public school.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Banasy on 06/29/02 at 10:22 p.m.


Quoting:

 Theoretically they could, but it is an election year and no politician or supreme court judge is going to suport this during an election year. Even the judge that decided this pulled a 180.End Quote


Why not, given that so many people object to the Pledge having those two words included?


Quoting:Good Idea, but once "under god" is taken out, and a parent marks no, their kid should be ineligible for further enrollment in public school.
End Quote


That was assuming that the Pledge would remain unaltered. If "Under God" were deleted from the pledge, there would be no reason to have the question on the enrollment forms.  However, if the Pledge sans "Under God" is still considered unconstitutional to those parents marking "no," I would guess that they have very little respect for anything our country stands for and would find our public educational system sorely lacking. Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's views, home schooling is probably the best way for them. They get the education that their parents desire, and the parents get to hold on to their own views.
Such a pity the kids would be inflicted with views THEY may not agree with, but HAVE to listen to because they are taught by the folks who think they know best...their parents. Choice and alternative thinking....hmmmm. Not at Mama's school!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/29/02 at 10:41 p.m.


Quoting:

Why not, given that so many people object to the Pledge having those two words included?

End Quote



I don't think a lot of people really object to the words being included, a lot of the regular posters on this massageboard do, but thats probaly to small a sample of the general public to get a good estimate.  Also I minority with a loud voice can create the "Ilusion" that a lot of people support thier cause.

  Up until three days ago did you even think about it or care?  It's been my expierience that more people want to resist change than conform to change, even when the change is for the better, not that I beleive that changing the pledge is for the better( I beleive the opposite, as you can tell from my earlier posts).

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Zella on 06/30/02 at 00:04 a.m.


Quoting:


Ooooow! Unless the cone is upside-down; then it's ok, I guess (like one of those Jetsons furniture pieces). Whoa! I missed this whole candle-light dinner fiasco and I just got a RL dark-grey suit too (won't be buying or eating anything for a while now...). I was gonna go with the MIB/Pulp Fiction drag, but the salesman was very convincing - this dude could sell an Emperor a set of new clothes! Is this RSVP or do I just show up fashionably late and impromptu?

Tarzan Boy
End Quote



I think it has now been changed to a candlelit dinner and pool party at Langdons. So forget the suit and be sure to pack your swimtrunks! ;) Hey, do cones float? ???

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 06/30/02 at 00:28 a.m.


Quoting:


I think it has now been changed to a candlelit dinner and pool party at Langdons. So forget the suit and be sure to pack your swimtrunks! ;) Hey, do cones float? ???
End Quote



Why am I the last to know about these things? I've already had the suit altered and everything to be picked up this blue Monday :-/ I was going to suggest The Irvine Improv since an acquaintance of mine will be there for amateur Open Mic Nite...

Langdon Hughes has a pool!? (BTW, cones do float...wait, you mean, like, orange cones, right?). If I had a pool, I'd sleep there. Seriously, it was so damme hotte ootside!

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 06/30/02 at 01:41 a.m.

Quoting:


"...I would guess that they have very little respect for anything our country stands for and would find our public educational system sorely lacking."End Quote



   Ugh...,this again...why, my dear Banasy, would you assume this?

Quoting:"Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's views, home schooling is probably the best way for them."End Quote



1) "Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's athiest views..."

2) Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's theist views..."
   
   Get the picture...?


Quoting:"They get the education that their parents desire, and the parents get to hold on to their own views."End Quote



Absolutely!  I will raise my children with the ideas, ideals and values that I hold dear.  When they've reached an age and a capacity to take-over for themselves, they're free to decide to live how they wish.  Would Xian parents do any different?


Quoting:"Such a pity the kids would be inflicted with views THEY may not agree with, but HAVE to listen to because they are taught by the folks who think they know best...their parents."End Quote



   Untill my child reaches a certain maturity and a certain mental capacity to have some inkling of which views are the one's for him/her, they will continue to have my views, as you say 'inflicted' upon them, i.e., they learn the values and views of the household they're raised in.  Plain and simple.  
   And their parents don't know best?  Well, if not the parents, whom?  You?  George Busch?  Jerry Falwell?  Some guy named Larry in E. Podunk, New Jersey?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Crazy Don on 06/30/02 at 07:29 a.m.

I had to throw two more cents into this.  Recently, the school where my niece goes had their graduation and an atheist filed suit to block the prayer that normally goes into these graduations and was successful.  This forced the other schools in the area to forgo the prayers that went with the graduation ceremonies.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/30/02 at 04:12 p.m.


Quoting:
Good Idea, but once "under god" is taken out, and a parent marks no, their kid should be ineligible for further enrollment in public school.
End Quote




Nah.

I know this is hypothetical and all, but I firmly disagree with this statement (above) and I don't believe the children should ever be denied their right to an education based on whether they recite the pledge of allegiance or not, no matter how patriotic it is to do so and no matter how much of a lack of respect towards our country is perceived. Whether the words "Under God" are an issue or not, the children haven't much control over any and all decisions made during their schoolastic years to adulthood. Thus, my respectful disagreement with the aforementioned statement.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/30/02 at 04:29 p.m.


Quoting:



Nah.

I know this is hypothetical and all, but I firmly disagree with this statement (above) and I don't believe the children should ever be denied their right to an education based on whether they recite the pledge of allegiance or not, no matter how patriotic it is to do so and no matter how much of a lack of respect towards our country is perceived. Whether the words "Under God" are an issue or not, the children haven't much control over any and all decisions made during their schoolastic years to adulthood. Thus, my respectful disagreement with the aforementioned statement.


End Quote



Maybe If education was treated as a Privledge and not a right, then we wouldn't waste our money educating kids that are just going to turn around and hate this country, people don't relize how good they have it here.  The only reason we have public education set up is because educating our kids benefits us, How much benefit is it going to be if someone we educate has so much hartred for this country that they start blowing up buildings, or start thier own militia, or anthrax Huston.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Banasy on 06/30/02 at 04:55 p.m.


Quoting:


   Ugh...,this again...why, my dear Banasy, would you assume this?End Quote



Neatly taken out of context. What I said was if "Under God" were taken out, (which is what the people are saying is unconstitutional) and still don't want their kids saying it, then, IMO, those parents have very little respect for the country they live in.  What the heck is so wrong about pledging an oath of allegiance to your country? What is so unconstitutional about that?

Quoting:
1) "Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's athiest views..."

2) Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's theist views..."
   
   Get the picture...?



End Quote


No...

Again, if "Under God" were deleted...what's the problem?

Quite clearly it is not the CHILDREN that are beefing about the Pledge, it is the adults.  It is the ADULTS who are offended. And while it if fine for kids make up their own minds about their own beliefs, they also need to be taught a wide variety of things in which to form their own beliefs in the first place. When on earth would they ever learn these tools, or  the Pledge at all, if not in school?

Some people may decide that math is unconstitutional because the sign for addition looks a ltitle bit to much like a cross...smacking of the church! Church and State, Church and State! Unconstitutional! So when, exactly, are kids supposed to get the lessons that they need to MAKE the choices to agree or disagree?  And at what age do you suggest it? 5? 10? When?

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Banasy on 06/30/02 at 05:21 p.m.


Quoting:


   




   Untill my child reaches a certain maturity and a certain mental capacity to have some inkling of which views are the one's for him/her, they will continue to have my views, as you say 'inflicted' upon them, i.e., they learn the values and views of the household they're raised in.  Plain and simple.  
   And their parents don't know best?  Well, if not the parents, whom?  You?  George Busch?  Jerry Falwell?  Some guy named Larry in E. Podunk, New Jersey?


End Quote



I worded that badly....I'll give you that...parents do know their own children best. No need to be so mean spirited  about it.



Values and morals are best taught by parents, that is true. But plain and simple, until the kids are old enough to make up their own minds about whether or not to say the Pledge, the parents ARE "inflicting" their own agenda onto them. Whatever spin one puts on it, that is what it is.


I said OVER AND OVER was if "Under God" were taken out of the pledge, what is quarrel over? I just cannot fathom what people are objecting over...

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/30/02 at 05:26 p.m.


Quoting:
Maybe If education was treated as a Privledge and not a right, then we wouldn't waste our money educating kids that are just going to turn around and hate this country... End Quote




Privilege is synonymous with right.

There is absolutely no way to predict how a child will develop and grow to the point of outright denying them an education on account that they may grow-up to hate the country.

You'd be better off thinking of other ways of saving money.  ::)

Quoting:

The only reason we have public education set up is because educating our kids benefits us...End Quote



That is your opinion and I respect your difference of it.

Mine is:

No. One of the reasons we have public education set up is because educating our kids benefits our kids.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/30/02 at 09:09 p.m.


Quoting:



Privilege is synonymous with right.



End Quote




I disagree, a right is something you're guaranteed, but a privilege is something that's given to you and can be taken away.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 06/30/02 at 10:33 p.m.


Quoting:

I disagree, a right is something you're guaranteed, but a privilege is something that's given to you and can be taken away.

End Quote



Privilege is synonymous with right according to the thesaurus.

Besides, is that the only point with which you disagree in reference to my last post?  ;)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 06/30/02 at 10:45 p.m.


Quoting:


Privilege is synonymous with right according to the thesaurus.

Besides, is that the only point with which you disagree in reference to my last post?  ;)
End Quote



It's not, but I've tired out my arguements.  By now everybody's probaly thinking that screwball54 he's a fascist SOB.  Your right theres easier ways to save money, but its not really about saving money. I guess If you really hated this country  you wouldn't enroll your kid in a government school to begin with.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: philbo_baggins on 07/01/02 at 06:36 a.m.


Quoting:
Privilege is synonymous with right according to the thesaurus.
End Quote


That's pure semantics: one of the definitions of the word "privilege" coincides with one of the definitions of the word "right" - using a thesaurus as a tool of debate is not exactly helpful.

Take, for example, the world of prison visits (since that's what I'm working on today): a sentenced prisoner has the right to one half-hour visit per week; he can also earn an extra visit per fortnight as a privilege.  Those two words are not the same and cannot be used interchangeably - which I think is what SB54 was implying.

Having said that, I think that education has to be treated as a right, as not to earn the privilege would be the action of the parent rather than the child, and it would be the child who suffers from their parent's actions.  So, even though I disagree with your argument, I do concur with the thesis behind it.

Phil

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Tarzan Boy (Guest) on 07/01/02 at 06:45 a.m.


Quoting:

That's pure semantics: one of the definitions of the word "privilege" coincides with one of the definitions of the word "right" - using a thesaurus as a tool of debate is not exactly helpful.

Phil
End Quote



Ha! You got me there coach 8)

Tarzan Boy

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 07/01/02 at 09:01 a.m.


Quoting:


It is. Which thesaurus says it isn't? Don't bother to answer that since it was a rhetorical question. Geez, maybe I should sign that petition to teach English-only in schools ::)

Tarzan Boy
End Quote



Once again no points, just insults.  BTW it wasn't an "English-only" petition it was a petition to teach English, not get rid of other languages.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Hairspray on 07/01/02 at 09:17 a.m.


Quoting:

That's pure semantics: one of the definitions of the word "privilege" coincides with one of the definitions of the word "right" - using a thesaurus as a tool of debate is not exactly helpful.

Take, for example, the world of prison visits (since that's what I'm working on today): a sentenced prisoner has the right to one half-hour visit per week; he can also earn an extra visit per fortnight as a privilege.  Those two words are not the same and cannot be used interchangeably - which I think is what SB54 was implying.

End Quote



Understood.

Quoting:
Having said that, I think that education has to be treated as a right, as not to earn the privilege would be the action of the parent rather than the child, and it would be the child who suffers from their parent's actions. End Quote



My thoughts, exactly.  ;)


Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 07/01/02 at 10:09 a.m.

an opinion to ponder:

i think that one of the core issues here is that some think that those opposed to saying the pledge of allegiance are disrespecting the country.  this position assumes that saying the pledge is the only way to show patriotism and respect for our country.  this is not true.  just as there are many ways to worship the religion/deity you choose, i think that there are many ways to respect one's country, from singing a patriotic song to reciting the pledge to volunteering at a local charity to help your fellow citizens.  refraining from doing one or another of these things does not make one's respect for their country any less.  i also don't believe that not saying the pledge will create less of a sense of national unity.  frankly, i feel more national unity singing the national anthem than by saying the pledge.  so again, there's more that one way to promote unity.  furthermore, i very firmly do not believe that not saying the pledge is a sign of hatred, nor do i think that hatred would be perpetuated if more people chose not to say it.  i choose not to say the pledge and i neither disrespect nor hate this country.  and i don't feel any less united with my fellow citizens.

do i think that the pledge of allegience, in any form, should be banned on a large (state or national) basis?  no, that would be ridiculous.  that would be taking away a mode of showing national respect for many people.  as i said before, it should be decided on an individual basis.  for example, the student government at the university i attended felt that because there were many other nationalities and religious traditions represented in the council, they should change the mandatory recitation to voluntary recitation at their meetings.  that way, those who weren't of this country wouldn't feel disloyal to their land and those of this country who were uncomfortable with it for whatever reason did not have to say it.  what a simple solution to the problem and they didn't even need a lawyer.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Goreripper on 07/01/02 at 05:52 p.m.

Nothing stirs the passions more than questioning the foundations of a nation. This argument is rather like the other one here about language. The US is a Christian country; those who live there should accept that the belief in God is an integral part of US society and culture and that should be respected regardless of one's one personal beliefs. Lodging a court action because one feels uncomfortable with the wording of a statement that is the cornerstone of the nation is a frivolous, petty and selfish action. It should have been thrown out of court. Even the smallest of pebbles can cause the largest waves. It's ruling like this that can potentially cause unrest and lead to the villification of minority groups, and we all know what lies down that path.

BTW I don't agree with Screwball's comments regarding the 'privilege' of education. Education is a basic human right, and is defined as so by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948, of which the US is a signatory. Refusing a child an education on the basis of their belief system (or for any reason whatsoever) is in breach of that declaration.  

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Taoist on 07/02/02 at 08:52 a.m.

Quoting:
The US is a Christian country; those who live there should accept that the belief in God is an integral part of US society and culture and that should be respected regardless of one's one personal beliefs.  
End Quote


Hi Gore!

I agree that people should always respect the beliefs of others.
But..I dispute that the US is a Christian country.
It may well be that the majority of people are Christian but that's not the same thing.
Unfortunately (IMO) too many people seem to believe that democracy is all about forcing the minority to follow the majority.
People - Chill out, live and let live, and be thankful for the wonderous variety in the world.

Taoist

"I am treated as evil by those who feel persecuted because they are not allowed to force me to believe as they do"

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Goreripper on 07/02/02 at 09:21 a.m.


Quoting:
But..I dispute that the US is a Christian country.
It may well be that the majority of people are Christian but that's not the same thing.
Unfortunately (IMO) too many people seem to believe that democracy is all about forcing the minority to follow the majority.
End Quote



Well maybe not but someone said here earlier that 96% of Americans are Christian; to me that would define a 'Christian country', just as 'Muslim country' would define somewhere like Iraq, where 96% of people are Islamic (or 'Heathen country' like Oz, where 96% of us are too damn lazy to get up to go to church on Sunday and the rest don't care  ;D). But definitions and semantics obscure the true issues. A democracy should be the election of leaders by a majority to rule the entirety, not just the people who vote for them or those who contribute to election campaigns.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Taoist on 07/02/02 at 09:28 a.m.

Yeah, no point wasting time on semantics!

Quoting:
A democracy should be the election of leaders by a majority to rule the entirety...
End Quote


Absolutely!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: philbo_baggins on 07/02/02 at 09:42 a.m.


Quoting:
"I am treated as evil by those who feel persecuted because they are not allowed to force me to believe as they do"
End Quote


I thought I recognized that one - originally by a Christian, it seems, but of course it is extremely apposite to whomsoever it applies...

On checking, I found it here: http://filebox.vt.edu/users/dwatson/morequotes.html which starts off with the other corker "Killing for peace is like fucking for chastity", and lots more :-)



Phil

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Taoist on 07/02/02 at 09:52 a.m.

Quoting:
I thought I recognized that one - originally by a Christian, it seems, but of course it is extremely apposite to whomsoever it applies...
End Quote


Yes it does, unfortunately.  (and I never claimed to be original ;))
In a similar vein...

"A Christian: One who believes the bible to be a divinely inspired book, perfectly suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbour"
Ambrose Pierce.

Good quotes, I have surfed numerous pages like that but there's always room for one more (I'd hate to run out of things to read, I might actually have to work)

Cheers

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 07/02/02 at 10:02 a.m.



Quoting:


Well maybe not but someone said here earlier that 96% of Americans are Christian; to me that would define a 'Christian country'End Quote

 

actually, the statistic you're referencing here states that 96% of people in this country believe in god, not that 96% of people here are christians.  it doesn't specify what god or what the original question was and the options for answers (i suspect it was from a poll, which are typically multiple choice).  many religions have a god-figure, but with a different name.  probably for the purposes of a poll, they would generalize their answer to god if their being wasn't an option.  so you can't say that because 96% of americans believe in god that 96% of americans are christian, hence you can't call america a christian country based on that statistic.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Taoist on 07/02/02 at 10:10 a.m.

Panda

Right on, and let's not forget that there are lies, damned lies and statistics!
I've seen posts (elsewhere) claiming that 96% of the WORLD are Christian!
I'm sure all interest groups can call upon statistics to claim they are in some kind of majority.
Personally, I'm comfortable with my beliefs (religious and otherwise) so I don't really care if 6 or 6 billion people agree with me!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 07/02/02 at 10:19 a.m.


Quoting:


 

actually, the statistic you're referencing here states that 96% of people in this country believe in god, not that 96% of people here are christians.  it doesn't specify what god or what the original question was and the options for answers (i suspect it was from a poll, which are typically multiple choice).  many religions have a god-figure, but with a different name.  probably for the purposes of a poll, they would generalize their answer to god if their being wasn't an option.  so you can't say that because 96% of americans believe in god that 96% of americans are christian, hence you can't call america a christian country based on that statistic.
End Quote



Your right, but the christian god is named god, so that can cause confusion.  Anyways heres an independent site that has data on the percentages of religons in the US (Look at pie chart on right):

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/88/story_8830_1.html

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 07/02/02 at 10:23 a.m.

taoist

i couldn't agree more with your view on statistics and polls.  i did the figures on how many people the 4% minority is in this country...it's roughly 11.5 million people out of over 260 million...now if the majority is christian, then i know of a lot of non-christians (pagans, muslims, etc.) in this country who are claiming otherwise.

panda

p.s.  i love your avatar...it's very relaxing...almost hypnotic in it's swirlie-spinning.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Taoist on 07/02/02 at 10:30 a.m.

Quoting:
...i know of a lot of non-christians (pagans, muslims, etc.) in this country who are claiming otherwise.
End Quote


I agree, I'd like to see the figures for my country (UK) but from personal experience, approx 80-90% of people I know are infact atheist, altho, here (The UK and Brighton in particular) you can get away with that view in public, I'm sure that wouldn't be socially acceptable in all countries.

Quoting:
p.s.  i love your avatar...it's very relaxing...almost hypnotic in it's swirlie-spinning.
End Quote


Thanks, I'm glad it brings you pleasure :)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 07/02/02 at 11:34 a.m.

What I would be interested in seeing is the percentage of those claiming to be Christian who actually give more than lip service to the religion.  :-X

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Goreripper on 07/02/02 at 07:50 p.m.


Quoting:
What I would be interested in seeing is the percentage of those claiming to be Christian who actually give more than lip service to the religion.  :-X
End Quote



Indeed! Christian when they need to be. It's the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: panda on 07/03/02 at 09:16 a.m.



Quoting:


Indeed! Christian when they need to be. It's the worst kind of hypocrisy.
End Quote



yeah, like on christmas or easter.  or for a wedding (that happens in my family a lot...someone wants to get married in a particular church, so they go long enough to get the priest's/pastor's consent and stop going not long after the ceremony).  i mean, if you're finding that the requirements for your particular religion are becoming too much or too intense that you only go when you think you HAVE to, maybe it's time to rethink what you believe and find a more flexible denomination of your religion.  or find a new religion entirely.  that's why (after a long and conflicted journey into atheism and other types of beliefs) i decided on paganism...it can be as flexible as i want/need it to be.  that's what's important to me, flexibility.  some people need to remember that they have the right to change their beliefs if they need to.

Subject: Re: Spirituality/Religion

Written By: Taoist on 07/03/02 at 09:22 a.m.

Quoting:
that's why (after a long and conflicted journey into atheism and other types of beliefs) i decided on paganism...it can be as flexible as i want/need it to be.
End Quote


I'm glad your spiritual journey is going well
Do you feel you need a religion of some description?
I prefer to leave the labels to retrospect.  If, upon viewing my life, I find I fit the 'spec' for Pagan/Christian/Buddhist, etc. then so be it!

Subject: Re: Spirituality/Religion

Written By: panda on 07/03/02 at 09:59 a.m.



Quoting:

I'm glad your spiritual journey is going well
Do you feel you need a religion of some description?
I prefer to leave the labels to retrospect.  If, upon viewing my life, I find I fit the 'spec' for Pagan/Christian/Buddhist, etc. then so be it!
End Quote



there are so many different paths and types of paganism that as a religion, it almost defies description.  i do consider myself pagan, but the label isn't so much for my satisfaction as it for clarification when i'm discussing religion(s) with peers or when i'm asked what my religion is.  i know what i believe and i don't think i should have to define it because i think beliefs are infinite and to put a label or definition on them  makes them finite.  i do embrace the title with pride when asked, but i don't go around town saying 'oh, look at me i'm a pagan'...that would give those of us who consider ourselves as such a pretty bad reputation.  

Subject: Re: Spirituality/Religion

Written By: Goreripper on 07/03/02 at 06:45 p.m.


Quoting:
i do embrace the title with pride when asked, but i don't go around town saying 'oh, look at me i'm a pagan'...that would give those of us who consider ourselves as such a pretty bad reputation.  
End Quote



And unfortunately there's a lot of people around who do exactly that. Mostly, they're just doing it because it's "cool", like all the people who claim to be wiccans, but really aren't.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: goldie on 07/04/02 at 11:35 a.m.

Yesterday, the Governor of Missouri made it a law that all schools in the state recite the pledge at least once a week. Most schools already recite it every day. The law allows children who don't want to particpate or if is against something that they believe in, they will not be forced to recite the pledge, just to stand quietly while the others do. I think especially right now, it is so important to instill a sense of respect in our children for our country and the freedoms that go along with it.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Alicia. on 07/04/02 at 01:26 p.m.


Quoting:
Yesterday, the Governor of Missouri made it a law that all schools in the state recite the pledge at least once a week. Most schools already recite it every day.
End Quote



Yeah I had to be in one of those schools. My teacher made us recite everyday! I just stood there though  :D

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Screwball54 on 07/04/02 at 03:43 p.m.


Quoting:
Yesterday, the Governor of Missouri made it a law that all schools in the state recite the pledge at least once a week.
End Quote



Good for him.  :)

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: ldhfurello on 07/10/02 at 08:38 p.m.

my husband  made the statement that if this man has a problem with GOD, he needs to turn in all his money because every bill refers to GOD. IN GOD WE TRUST is our  motto.

GOD BLESS THE USA !!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: ldhfurello on 07/10/02 at 08:40 p.m.


Quoting:
Oh, trust me, I believe in God and I am VERY offended.  It wasn't enough that they took prayer out of schools, now they are trying to destroy our pledge to God and our country.  Today I heard a commentator on MSNBC saying that over 96% of US citizens believe in God.  NINETY-SIX PERCENT!  So you mean to tell me that because 4% of the US population feels their rights are being infringed upon we all must suffer?  

This country needs God, IMO, and things aren't going to get any better until the people who are in positions of power realize this.  This politically correct garbage is for the dogs.  I think the government should work for the majority - not the minority.  If 96% of us believe in God, and only 4% of us don't, then why in the world aren't we allowed to pray in school anymore?  Why aren't we allowed to speak God's name in class?

I think if more children were introduced to God's awesome love at a younger age, they wouldn't have to turn to drugs, alcohol, sex during their teenage years.  Since separation of Church & State, our nation's youth has become progressively worse.  Hmmm, do you see a trend?  I surely do!
End Quote







i agree with you 100%.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: philbo_baggins on 07/11/02 at 03:26 a.m.

Just as a thought: why does the wording have to be exactly the same for everybody?  Instead of forcing the 4% of the people who are not Christian to swear on a God they don't believe in, let those who do believe put the extra two words in when they're reciting the thing.

Phil

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: dagwood on 07/11/02 at 06:04 a.m.


Quoting:
Just as a thought: why does the wording have to be exactly the same for everybody?  Instead of forcing the 4% of the people who are not Christian to swear on a God they don't believe in, let those who do believe put the extra two words in when they're reciting the thing.

Phil
End Quote



This could also work the other way around.  If you don't like it, don't say it.  Either way would make too much sense, which is why it won't ever happen.  There are always going to be people in this country that think their beliefs are more important than someone elses, so everyone should follow theirs.

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: Davester on 07/11/02 at 10:32 p.m.


Quoting:
my husband  made the statement that if this man has a problem with GOD, he needs to turn in all his money because every bill refers to GOD. IN GOD WE TRUST is our  motto.

GOD BLESS THE USA !!!!!!!!
End Quote




   That's a wonderful philosophy, I was wondering when this one would come-up. ::)

doG Bless the USA!

Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance Unconstitutional?

Written By: philbo_baggins on 07/12/02 at 03:11 a.m.


Quoting:
my husband  made the statement that if this man has a problem with GOD, he needs to turn in all his money because every bill refers to GOD. IN GOD WE TRUST is our  motto.
End Quote


I thought the full quote was "In God we trust... all others pay cash" and was an intimation of not being allowed credit (hence being printed on notes etc.)

...I get a feeling of déjà vu (or should that be déjà écrit?)...I'm sure I've made that joke before here sometime ;-)

Phil