Quoting:if you or your children attend public school which the state and federal goverments are paying for, then you should have to say the pledge, no questions asked.End Quote

doesn't quite pass the sniff test, I'm afraid.  What you're saying is that if the government is writing the check, we could be made to do just about anything.  That's not a reassuring thought.

Quoting:
 
  Also, the argument presented by our friend Screwball54;
doesn't quite pass the sniff test, I'm afraid.  What you're saying is that if the government is writing the check, we could be made to do just about anything.  That's not a reassuring thought.
End Quote

 Here's what I believe: the kids in Public school are getting a free education, they should say the pledge out of respect for the country thats giving this education to them.  Whenever anyone does buisness with the government there is certain guidelines that they have follow, why should public school be any different?  If you don't like the country enough where you can't stand to see your kids spend one minute a day showing it respect, maybe you should persue some non-goverment ways of education.

Quoting:
...It wasn't enough that they took prayer out of schools, now they are trying to destroy our pledge to God and our country.End Quote

   Non-believers can love and make sacrifices for their country no less than believers.  The pay taxes just the same as everyone else, serve their country just as faithfully as everyone else and contribute to society just the same as everyone else.

Quoting:Today I heard a commentator on MSNBC saying that over 96% of US citizens believe in God.  NINETY-SIX PERCENT!  So you mean to tell me that because 4% of the US population feels their rights are being infringed upon we all must suffer?End Quote

...And those 4% should suffer just because they don't believe?  

Quoting:This country needs God, IMO, and things aren't going to get any better until the people who are in positions of power realize this.End Quote

   That's a tremendously frightening thought.

Quoting:This politically correct garbage is for the dogs.End Quote

   You're right.  Lets do away with social security, women's rights, minority's rights, care for the elderly and infirm and let's also bring back slavery and intern the Japanese again.
 

Quoting:I think the government should work for the majority - not the minority.End Quote

  Well, in a way, they do.  That's the beauty of our system of government.  Hopefully without respect for race, creed, national origin, disability, religious persuasion, so-on-and-so-forth.

Quoting:If 96% of us believe in God, and only 4% of us don't, then why in the world aren't we allowed to pray in school anymore?  Why aren't we allowed to speak God's name in class?End Quote

   You can pray in school (or wherever else you want, anytime you want.  God still hears you, yes?)  During recess or lunch or P.E. or whatever, say your little prayer, then go on with your life.

Quoting:I think if more children were introduced to God's awesome love at a younger age, they wouldn't have to turn to drugs, alcohol, sex during their teenage years.End Quote

  Who says non-believers have to turn to drugs alcohol and sex in their teen years for lack of faith?   How do you know this to be true?  
 

Quoting:Since separation of Church & State, our nation's youth has become progressively worse.  Hmmm, do you see a trend?  I surely do!End Quote

   Separation of Church and State is one of the intristic characteristics of our government and it's inception goes back to the founding of our country.  So our youth has become progressively worse since the ratification of our Constitution?
   

Quoting:


   Separation of Church and State is one of the intristic characteristics of our government and it's inception goes back to the founding of our country.  So our youth has become progressively worse since the ratification of our Constitution?
   

End Quote

Actually, what the Constitution does is prohibit the government from establishing a religion; ie: mandating how the citizenry worships. The seperation of church and state is an interpretation.

Quoting:


Actually, what the Constitution does is prohibit the government from establishing a religion; ie: mandating how the citizenry worships. The seperation of church and state is an interpretation.
End Quote

   An interpretation I hope continues.

Quoting:

   Separation of Church and State is one of the intristic characteristics of our government and it's inception goes back to the founding of our country.  So our youth has become progressively worse since the ratification of our Constitution?
   
End Quote

I think she was refering to the 1962 court cases "Engel v. Vitale (1962)" and Abbington School District v. Schempp & Murray v. Curlett (1963) where Prayer was removed from public schools.

Quoting:


Actually, what the Constitution does is prohibit the government from establishing a religion; ie: mandating how the citizenry worships. The seperation of church and state is an interpretation.
End Quote

I agree, but i think this is the exact opposite of what they are doing here.  The court today is saying that worshiping a god is unconstitutional, which I think is BS.

Quoting:


 Here's what I believe: the kids in Public school are getting a free education, they should say the pledge out of respect for the country thats giving this education to them.  Whenever anyone does buisness with the government there is certain guidelines that they have follow, why should public school be any different?  If you don't like the country enough where you can't stand to see your kids spend one minute a day showing it respect, maybe you should persue some non-goverment ways of education.
End Quote

   Like I said, I have no problem with the Pledge per se.  I don't know the history of the Pledge as it is written, but I would think it was conceived in a time in our nations past where belief in a god was, more-or-less, a given.  So, rewrite it?  Heck, I don't know.  Were I in a situation where it would be proper to say the pledge, I would probably just skip the ...under god..." part and go on with my life.
   I don't equate my respect for my country with a respect for a deity.  I don't feel I can't have one without the other.
   

Quoting:


   Like I said, I have no problem with the Pledge per se.  I don't know the history of the Pledge as it is written, but I would think it was conceived in a time in our nations past where belief in a god was, more-or-less, a given.  So, rewrite it?  Heck, I don't know.  Were I in a situation where it would be proper to say the pledge, I would probably just skip the ...under god..." part and go on with my life.
   I don't equate my respect for my country with a respect for a deity.  I don't feel I can't have one without the other.
   
End Quote

I've never had a problem with someone not saying "under god" and when it was Originally writen in 1892 "under God wasn't even part of it. "Under god" was added in 1951 (I think).

Quoting:


I've never had a problem with someone not saying "under god" and when it was Originally writen in 1892 "under God wasn't even part of it. "Under god" was added in 1951 (I think).
End Quote

  Thank's for the info on the pledge, Screwball54.  Without a history book opened-up in front of my face, I have a bad habit of generalizing more than I should.

Quoting:
ok..anyone beat me for interrupting this ..but I had to say..cuz she is here......GAWD hairspray..that is my FAVORITE pix of D2 that was ever in print....what cheek bones...what faces...what MEN!!!!!


ok..once again..sorry..continue to your regular debate already in progess!!!
End Quote

  Heh, I like a woman with priorities! ;D

Quoting:
Ok. The "Under God" part was added by Congress in 1954. Wouldn't it have been better and easier to omit those two words out of the pledge? ? ?

Technically, the words do violate the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state.

The words also seem to designate a specific religious identity for the government. The U.S. may be a melting pot with many different peoples & religions, but christianity is still the most practiced faith. In order for people to feel truly free in this country to practice their diverse religions and beliefs, the government should not be identified with a particular religion.

I know of one case from a while ago -

A city hall which had a plaque of the 10 commandments displayed at the entrance for over 80 years. City Hall was forced by a court ruling to cover the plaque until removed permanently. Under heavy protest, it was finally removed.

Here too the judge viewed the plaque of the 10 commandments in City Hall as a violation the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state. It was a tough but clear decision.

It's not pretty. I don't necessarily agree with the drastic changes ahead in reference to the pledge, but as a country we must remain true to the Constitution. I think they knew what they were doing back in the day. The tenet of separation of church and state is there for a good reason.

Sadly, the next thing to probably go will be the words on our money "In God We Trust".  :-/
End Quote

 The problem I have with all this is that our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not.  We may be a melting pot, and other religions should be practiced, but only Christianity being removed. The reason? So we don't offend other religions. In the case of god, I don't know of one religion that doesn't believe in a higher power (God) of sum sort.

Quoting:
ok..anyone beat me for interrupting this ..but I had to say..cuz she is here......GAWD hairspray..that is my FAVORITE pix of D2 that was ever in print....what cheek bones...what faces...what MEN!!!!!


ok..once again..sorry..continue to your regular debate already in progess!!!
End Quote

we needed a break!  :)

Quoting:
Today I heard a commentator on MSNBC saying that over 96% of US citizens believe in God.  NINETY-SIX PERCENT!  So you mean to tell me that because 4% of the US population feels their rights are being infringed upon we all must suffer?  
End Quote

Only 4%?  I beg to differ!  How come I wasn't a part of this poll?

Quoting:
The pledge should definitely stay if at least modified.
It's symbolic of our patriotism. It's a good thing and shouldn't be ripped away.
End Quote

I agree, Hairspray!  ;)

Quoting:


  Heh, I like a woman with priorities! ;D
End Quote

hey Dave...what else do you like a woman to be without...ok..sorry.....I had to ask.....but your are not obliged to answer that question!!!!!!!!!

Quoting:
   I know this wasn't addressed at me, but if I may...I'd say that the ban on worship in the schools would apply to any and all religions, not just Xianity.  We are all probably assuming that the "Pledge" is referring to the Xian God.
End Quote

It should, but the only time I ever hear about a religion not being allowed in a school it's christianity.  I remember a couple of months ago when in a California elementary school they were teaching an Islam class.  Your right it should be all or nothing, but instead its all but christianity.  

Quoting:

The problem I have with all this is that our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not.  End Quote

I don't agree.

Quoting:

We may be a melting pot, and other religions should be practiced, but only Christianity being removed. The reason? So we don't offend other religions.
End Quote

Who said christianity should be removed? All religions should respect the other. I don't see christianity as a separate entity. Christianity is a religion just like any other.

Quoting:
In the case of god, I don't know of one religion that doesn't believe in a higher power (God) of sum sort.
End Quote

Actually, there are religions which have many gods and some that have none. Different cultures of the world, you know.

Quoting:


I don't agree.
End Quote

Hairspray, with all due respect it's not an opinion its a fact.

Quoting:
Who said christianity should be removed? All religions should respect the other. I don't see christianity as a separate entity. Christianity is a religion just like any other.
End Quote

Well, the Supreme Court for one, I gauranty you if there was a reference to another religon in that courthouse the fight to get it removed would not exist.

Quoting:
   Wait a minute, here...the last part of your post Hairspray, about the "In God We Trust" on our currency...are you saying that non-believers would be inconsistent in their position if they continued to use currency thus marked?

(Edited because I'm an idiot)
End Quote

Of course not. It stands to reason that once a change of this magnitude is solidified, other materials with/of religious reference will be targeted until no religious reference is left connected to the government.

Quoting:


Hairspray, with all due respect it's not an opinion its a fact.

End Quote

I'll get back to you on that one.  ;)

Quoting:

Well, the Supreme Court for one, I gauranty you if there was a reference to another religon in that courthouse the fight to get it removed would not exist.

End Quote

Now that's an opinion.  ;D

Seriously, I don't see any particular discrimination against christianity itself. This is a very general religious thing of which we speak, all religions included. It just happens that we don't have "Under Zeus" included in the pledge, nor are there any references to "BUDHA" in the city hall or capitol building.

Quoting:
   Any and all religions can be neatly bundled together under the term 'theism'.  
   I think all of this points to the larger issue of "Morality Without God".  What is the source of morality, or as I like to say, ethics?   Would we know right from wrong without any kind of theism, at all?  Do humans have the capacity to learn?
End Quote

No, no, no. That's a whole other topic for another time, I think. This one's exhausting enough. Besides, it strays from the original issue as to whether or not the pledge is unconstitutional. I think it's more like the phrase "Under God" is.

Quoting:
I wish I could stay an argue, but its 3:30 here and i probly should go to bed.
End Quote

Have a good morning! Civil debating's almost exhilarating.  ;)

Quoting:
   LOL!  Of course, Hairspray.  It's just that it's easy to start on one and end up in the other.  When you take the base arguement out of it, i.e., "why refer to a deity in the pledge in the first place", all the rest seems rather empty and falls apart.End Quote

Alright.

I read somewhere that the deity reference was added during the cold war, so as to help people identify the U.S. as good and Russia as evil. Crazy, huh? To people in the 50's, everything was black and white (no pun intended).

To answer your previous questions-

"Would we know right from wrong without any kind of theism, at all?  Do humans have the capacity to learn?"

We as a society would know right from wrong without religion/theism if we were taught right from wrong without religion/theism.

Humans do have the capacity to learn. But you know that already. Why did you ask that particular question? Sarcasm?  ;D

Quoting:


Alright.

I read somewhere that the deity reference was added during the cold war, so as to help people identify the U.S. as good and Russia as evil. Crazy, huh? To people in the 50's, everything was black and white (no pun intended).

To answer your previous questions-

"Would we know right from wrong without any kind of theism, at all?  Do humans have the capacity to learn?"

We as a society would know right from wrong without religion/theism if we were taught right from wrong without religion/theism.

Humans do have the capacity to learn. But you know that already. Why did you ask that particular question? Sarcasm?  ;D
End Quote

  No, not sarcasm, I should've phrased it, "Do humans have the capacity to learn right from wrong (or ethics)."  I'll add that this was a question posed to theists. 
 
 

Quoting:
Hairspray, with all due respect it's not an opinion its a fact.

End Quote

You stated "...our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not."


"Pagan philosophy, art, and culture are major threads in our Western Civilization, an inseparable part of its warp and woof?  That the founding fathers admired and adopted the common law of their pagan Anglo-Saxon ancestors, going back to the mists of time?  That they admired the art, architecture, laws and philosophies of the Romans, from whom they took the notion of their Senate and Republican form of government, and of the Greeks, from whom they took the idea of democracy and the architecture that graces the nation's chief buildings--its Capitol, its Lincoln and Washington Memorials and Supreme Court?  Whose ideas for the disciplines of science became the basis of the West's technological progress and superiority?  Try to tear out these threads from our nation's cultural cloth, and you would rip it to shreds.

The very organization of Western culture illustrates the fruitful melding of pagan and Christian ideas--just as Christians combined their religious practices with Jewish forms and traditions in the early church.  The earliest Christian Bibles were written in Greek (the Septuagint), Christian churches were designed after Greek and Roman temples, and even the church organization, with its structure of deacon, priest, bishop, and pontiff was ordered along the lines of the Imperial Roman hierarchy.  Our Western civilization has benefited from the impact of many other "pagan" cultures, deriving gunpowder, guns, cannons, and rockets from the Chinese, an efficient mathematics from India through the Arabs, and nutritious foodstuffs like corn and potatoes from north and South America--raising living standards in America and Europe."

It's this melding our whole civilization is based on.

Quoting:Ok. The "Under God" part was added by Congress in 1954. Wouldn't it have been better and easier to omit those two words out of the pledge? ? ?

Technically, the words do violate the basic Constitutional tenet of separation of church and state.

The words also seem to designate a specific religious identity for the government. The U.S. may be a melting pot with many different peoples & religions, but christianity is still the most practiced faith. In order for people to feel truly free in this country to practice their diverse religions and beliefs, the government should not be identified with a particular religion.

End Quote

I have to agree with you, hairspray. :)   The words "under God" do not seperate religion from state.  I believe in God and yet feel the words should be ommited.    Although, I do think there are so many more important issues that need taken care of than this.  As for money...if need be, just make the new unprinted bills without the word 'God'   In reality,there is no way to change the bills already in print and besides that it would be ludicrous.   :)

Quoting:

Well, the Supreme Court for one, I gauranty you if there was a reference to another religon in that courthouse the fight to get it removed would not exist.


End Quote

if earth paganism or wicca was the religion in question, you could bet your bum that the fight would exist to get it out of the courthouse...but the fight would be a little different because the government doesn't exactly like the fact that they HAVE to recognize them as religions.  if it were up to the president, pagans would be screwed.  if it were up to him, we wouldn't have any legal base for our beliefs.  if it were up to him, we'd continue to have christianity shoved down our throats.  at least your religion is respected and recognized as such.  try seeing it from the non-christian side of things once in awhile.

i'm not saying that i disrespect people who have christian beliefs, because that's not the case.  but i do disrespect the fact that i'm told i'm wrong or don't have a real religion because i'm not a christian.  and i do disrespect the fact that christianity is pushed on us every where we are from being constantly referred to in the media and news to the people on the corner handing out their pamphlets telling me i'm a sinning heathen if i don't believe the same as they do.  i respect that they made the decision to believe one religion and i don't try to change their minds by pushing my beliefs on them, so please extend the same kindness and don't push yours on me.

sorry if this offends anyone, but i have been offended by a lot of this thread.  oh wait...i'm in the 4% minority, so i guess my beliefs and feelings don't count, do they?

Quoting:
   Wait a minute, here...the last part of your post Hairspray, about the "In God We Trust" on our currency...are you saying that non-believers would be inconsistent in their position if they continued to use currency thus marked?
End Quote

:-)

Surely it's a part quote: "In Got We Trust - All Others Pay Cash" ;-)

On topic: coming from a country where the church is a part of the state, and being an atheist in the middle of it, it seems eminently sensible to try and avoid intermingling between church and state.  It causes nothing but trouble in the long run.

Phil

Quoting:



 The problem I have with all this is that our whole civilization is based on Christian beliefs, like it or not.  We may be a melting pot, and other religions should be practiced, but only Christianity being removed. The reason? So we don't offend other religions. In the case of god, I don't know of one religion that doesn't believe in a higher power (God) of sum sort.


End Quote

Aw, you're so funny :D :D :D I wouldn't be laughing if this wasn't such a wrong statement. I would go into detail, but, why bother?

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:


Aw, you're so funny :D :D :D I wouldn't be laughing if this wasn't such a wrong statement. I would go into detail, but, why bother?

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

Why is this such a wrong statement? How come everytime you dissagree with me you only come up with insults and not facts?  Besides I know you would support any ruling that made people respect the United States less.

Quoting:
oh wait...i'm in the 4% minority, so i guess my beliefs and feelings don't count, do they?
End Quote

I am of the belief everyone should count equally. Everyone should be taken into consideration, even the small percentages.

IMO, this issue has to be treated with logic, not emotion.

Quoting:


Why is this such a wrong statement? How come everytime you dissagree with me you only come up with insults and not facts?  Besides I know you would support any ruling that made people respect the United States less.
End Quote

Last time I came up with facts you resorted to petty excuses about my resources. Hey, at least I got you to admit that you fully trust Big Corporations...

If you were to look up in the phone book Donna Summer's name it would come up as: "Summer, Donna." Now, repeat after me:

Summer, Donna - Sammer, Danna - Sammar, Dawna - sammar, dawn - yeah, you got it! Simmer down. Now, you simmer down...

Soooo, what's for your encore? I plotted with the guy that went to Pakistan to make an H-bomb? Like I said, why bother?

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:
   
   Screwball54, are you thinking that the heathen atheists are trying to outlaw Xianity alltogether with the assistance of Uncle Sam?

  See you later, Screwball54. 
End Quote

 No, but I believe in this nation that christianity gets picked on a lot.  I also believe that a lot of christian beliefs arn't that bad to have.  On this issue though I'm more upset that the court has such disrespect for our country, that they made it Illegal and "under God" was just the scapegoat.  

Quoting:



Last time I came up with facts you resorted to petty excuses about my resources. Hey, at least I got you to admit that you fully trust Big Corporations...

If you were to look up in the phone book Donna Summer's name it would come up as: "Summer, Donna." Now, repeat after me:

Summer, Donna - Sammer, Danna - Sammar, Dawna - sammar, dawn - yeah, you got it! Simmer down. Now, you simmer down...

Soooo, what's for your encore? I plotted with the guy that went to Pakistan to make an H-bomb? Like I said, why bother?

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

I still trust corporations and capitalism, Its some of the people in charge of a few corporations that you can't trust.  Maybe you should take your own advice.  ;)

Quoting:


I still trust corporations and capitalism, Its some of the people in charge of a few corporations that you can't trust.
End Quote

It never ceases to amaze me...

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:


It never ceases to amaze me...

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

Tarzan Boy,
You have every right to disagree with me If you like a more "Public" form of economics thats your choice.  but i'm not amazed by it.

Quoting:
I'm glad we don't have to say the pledge anymore. it's a waist of valuble learning time.
End Quote

Alicia...depending on where you live, as I understand it, the ruling won't necessarily apply to you.  If I understand it right, it's only like 9 (?) states that the ruling applies to, and will likely be challenged and overturned before the school year starts up again this year.
Now for kids in year-round school, maybe it will go into effect immediately, but again, not in ALL states.   ;)

I just double checked.  The only states it applies to are:
Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon and Washington state.

Quoting:


Tarzan Boy,
You have every right to disagree with me If you like a more "Public" form of economics thats your choice.  but i'm not amazed by it.
End Quote

Actually, I'm a syndicalist, but, back on topic...Whenever I used to say the announcements back in HS, you could skip the inserted part and keep going and everyone was fine by that.

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:
I'm glad we don't have to say the pledge anymore. it's a waist of valuble learning time.
End Quote

A minute a day, taking time to respect your country is sure a waist of time.

Quoting:


A minute a day, taking time to respect your country is sure a waist of time.
End Quote

Yup it is. But this is just my opinion.

Quoting:


Yup it is. But this is just my opinion.
End Quote

So you shouldn't be taught to respect the country in public schools?

Quoting:


So you shouldn't be taught to respect the country in public schools?
End Quote

Yes you should. But you will learn it in the social studies books anyways.

Quoting:


I am of the belief everyone should count equally. Everyone should be taken into consideration, even the small percentages.

IMO, this issue has to be treated with logic, not emotion.
End Quote

the issue seems to lie in the fact that people (in general) are getting mightily p*ssed off because the small percentages ARE being taken into consideration.  now, i'm sure that the people who passed this stuff about the pledge thought they came to a logical decision, but that doesn't change the fact that no matter how logical the decision is, emotions will always come into play.  i don't support making emotionally-based decisions for public policy, but we have every right to be emotionally moved by the outcome of those decisions.

as i said before, the small percentages being taken into consideration in this issue clearly angers the larger percentages.  and how is that supposed to make the small percentages feel?  everytime we get government consideration, the people in the majority make us out to be almost like we're mutants because we believe in buddha or a goddess or nothing at all.  yeah, the decision was probably logical, but it has created alienated emotions because it was for the small percentage and the large percentages seem to think that we don't deserve a voice.

and on a personal note...just from reading this thread, i don't feel like i'm all that welcome here because i'm not christian.  not your goal here, i know, but many posts, natmc78's especially, made me feel like anyone who isn't like everyone else isn't wanted here.

Quoting:
and on a personal note...just from reading this thread, i don't feel like i'm all that welcome here because i'm not christian.  not your goal here, i know, but many posts, natmc78's especially, made me feel like anyone who isn't like everyone else isn't wanted here.      
End Quote

panda...I don't think you should feel that way.  I know what you mean, the folks that believe one way will certainly disagree with those that believe another.  On this post, as well as any others where opinions are involved.   As you noted yourself, many people are just  "emotionally moved by the outcome", and therefore they are going to speak their mind about it.  You can't take on a topic like this and expect everybody to agree.  IMO, as long as your thoughts and posts are well thought out, and well written, (and yours are) you deserve respect for that opinion, no matter who agrees or disagrees with it.  I don't always agree with stuff I read here either--but, if I get too upset, I just (try.. :-/) and avoid the post, and find something else to comment on.  As long as personal assaults don't come out of the posts made, I think we can ALL "belong" here.  ;)

Quoting:


A minute a day, taking time to respect your country is sure a waist of time.
End Quote

I haven't read all the way through this thread yet, but I had to respond to this.

Reciting a pledge doesn't teach respect, in fact, it's just the opposite. It teaches blind loyalty. Did anyone ever explain exactly what a pledge is? What allegiance means? Were we ever given a choice? Nope, just taught to become a chorus of soldiers promising to support our government no matter what it did.

Respect is earned, not forced. And one of the ways my country earns my respect is by giving me the freedom to disagree with it.

Quoting:


I haven't read all the way through this thread yet, but I had to respond to this.

Reciting a pledge doesn't teach respect, in fact, it's just the opposite. It teaches blind loyalty. Did anyone ever explain exactly what a pledge is? What allegiance means? Were we ever given a choice? Nope, just taught to become a chorus of soldiers promising to support our government no matter what it did.

Respect is earned, not forced. And one of the ways my country earns my respect is by giving me the freedom to disagree with it.
End Quote

YES! I totally agree there are SOME people who don't respect this country but have to live in it anyways because they are still young and can't get out until they are adults and can move from their parents.

Quoting:
My opinion, for what it's worth. If anyone is in disagreement with the phrase "under God" they should simply skip that part of the pledge. Langdon is right in that saying the pledge isn't going to make anyone respect the country, but I also see no harm in saying it.
End Quote

Very well put, Lester!  I completely agree...I only wish I'd said it first :D

Quoting:
And now the judge has blocked his own ruling!

With Madalyn Murray O'Hair gone, who was the idiot that brought up this cockamamie idea, anyway?  (Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the atheist who banned prayers in schools, BTW.)
End Quote

It's california atheist Michael Newdow, he also sued the government to get "In god we trust" off of coins.

Quoting:


It's california atheist Michael Newdow, he also sued the government to get "In god we trust" off of coins.
End Quote

Quoting:
It had to be a Californian. That state is crawling with atheists. I feel for both the Christians that live in that state and the atheists that this cretin gives a bad name too. :(

End Quote

don't blame the atheists it's not all their fault. And at least they don't go and try to sell everyone in what they believe in.

Quoting:


And at least they don't go and try to sell everyone in what they believe in.
End Quote

Um... what is it they believe in again?

Don't blow a gasket, Alicia... just having a little fun! ;D

Quoting:


Um... what is it they believe in again?

Don't blow a gasket, Alicia... just having a little fun! ;D
End Quote

God......and I promise I won't blow a gasket  ;)

Quoting:
It had to be a Californian. That state is crawling with atheists. I feel for both the Christians that live in that state and the atheists that this cretin gives a bad name too. :(

End Quote

I've always wondered this:

Instead of saying"(God")Bless You...why not just say"Jesus" Bless You.How would you feel about this? -howard-(don't call me jammin'!)  8)

Quoting:


panda...I don't think you should feel that way.  I know what you mean, the folks that believe one way will certainly disagree with those that believe another.  On this post, as well as any others where opinions are involved.   As you noted yourself, many people are just  "emotionally moved by the outcome", and therefore they are going to speak their mind about it.  You can't take on a topic like this and expect everybody to agree.  IMO, as long as your thoughts and posts are well thought out, and well written, (and yours are) you deserve respect for that opinion, no matter who agrees or disagrees with it.  I don't always agree with stuff I read here either--but, if I get too upset, I just (try.. :-/) and avoid the post, and find something else to comment on.  As long as personal assaults don't come out of the posts made, I think we can ALL "belong" here.  ;)

End Quote

thanks for your words, marci.  and i do want to point out that i wasn't trying to say that you all have been attacking me personally, and i'm not even going to try and twist anyone's comments around to make it seem like you are attacking me...i was speaking as a member of the religious minority, which has been the brunt of many negative comments in this thread.  and i was going to say something else, but clear wording is eluding me at the moment, so i'll leave it at that.

Quoting:

and on a personal note...just from reading this thread, i don't feel like i'm all that welcome here because i'm not christian.  not your goal here, i know, but many posts, natmc78's especially, made me feel like anyone who isn't like everyone else isn't wanted here.
End Quote

It was never my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome.  I am a Christian - have been for many years, and this topic is very important to me.  I know my statements were emotional, but that's just me.  I would apologize, but since I wouldn't take back one word I said in my first post, I don't feel an apology is necessary.

Trust me, there have been many statements made in this post that I've disagreed with - and some statements that have made me feel "unwelcome," but I understand that diversity is what makes this country great, and if everyone had the same opinions and beliefs, our country would be boring indeed.  

Quoting:


don't blame the atheists it's not all their fault. And at least they don't go and try to sell everyone in what they believe in.
End Quote

Quoting:
To tell you the truth, Alicia, Californians are probably more offended by my post than atheists. ;)

End Quote

*looking up from the bottle of zinfandel I'm uncorking*

I'm sorry what? I can't be offended, I'm too busy making dinner for TB, SB, and Zella for our poolside picnic. What was the disparaging California remark? Did it have to do with the size of my thighs?

Oh wait. That's right, California is "crawling" with atheists. Yup. And Christians and Muslims and Jews and Witches...

Why should that offend me?

Quoting:
My opinion, for what it's worth. If anyone is in disagreement with the phrase "under God" they should simply skip that part of the pledge. Langdon is right in that saying the pledge isn't going to make anyone respect the country, but I also see no harm in saying it.
End Quote

This is exactly what I thought when I first heard of the decision.  But, to point out the other side, they could take the words out and if you want to you can say it.  (I would keep Under God in but that is just my opinion.)

Quoting:


*looking up from the bottle of zinfandel I'm uncorking*

I'm sorry what? I can't be offended, I'm too busy making dinner for TB, SB, and Zella for our poolside picnic. What was the disparaging California remark? Did it have to do with the size of my thighs?

Oh wait. That's right, California is "crawling" with atheists. Yup. And Christians and Muslims and Jews and Witches...

Why should that offend me?
End Quote

Quoting:


It was never my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome.  I am a Christian - have been for many years, and this topic is very important to me.  I know my statements were emotional, but that's just me.  I would apologize, but since I wouldn't take back one word I said in my first post, I don't feel an apology is necessary.

Trust me, there have been many statements made in this post that I've disagreed with - and some statements that have made me feel "unwelcome," but I understand that diversity is what makes this country great, and if everyone had the same opinions and beliefs, our country would be boring indeed.  
End Quote

   This kind of thread is nothing new to this board, at least since I've been a member, so speak your mind and post confidently knowing that most, if not all, of us here discuss the topic not the person.  Right J.C.?

Quoting:
discuss the topic not the person
End Quote

I couldn't agree more.  Well said, Davester.

Quoting:


   This kind of thread is nothing new to this board, at least since I've been a member, so speak your mind and post confidently knowing that most, if not all, of us here discuss the topic not the person.  Right J.C.?
End Quote

Quoting:


I couldn't agree more.  Well said, Davester.
End Quote

Quoting:
I forgot. Nothing could offend you. Right Langdon? ;)

End Quote

Actually, I find myself frequently offended, but I try to distinguish between the issue and my own personal reactions to the issue and remember that we don't know everybody's life stories. Then I open another bottle of wine and thank God, god, Allah, Buddah, Mom, fill in the blank that I live in the Land of Therapists.

Quoting:
Does that mean I should take back all those posts that said how beautiful you are?! ;)

End Quote

No way!  I loved your posts - you were so kind.  You can make posts like that anytime, trust me, I won't mind! ;) ;)

Quoting:


Actually, I find myself frequently offended, but I try to distinguish between the issue and my own personal reactions to the issue and remember that we don't know everybody's life stories. Then I open another bottle of wine and thank God, god, Allah, Buddah, Mom, fill in the blank that I live in the Land of Therapists.
End Quote

Quoting:


 No, but I believe in this nation that christianity gets picked on a lot.  I also believe that a lot of christian beliefs arn't that bad to have.  On this issue though I'm more upset that the court has such disrespect for our country, that they made it Illegal and "under God" was just the scapegoat.  
End Quote

   Yes, it may seem that way, but I think that's mostly bacause Xianity is the predominant faith in this country, as well as the faith of the founders.
   I still maintain that throwing out the Pledge in its entirety was going a bit far.  I say take it back to it's pre-1951 ('52?) form.  This transforms the Pledge immensely, IMO, from a govenment endorsement of theism (the faithfull would say 'monotheism') and restore its original meaning.
   Furthermore,  if our Constitution guarantees the right of non-belief, how can the official pledge to uphold that Constitution contain a mandatory reference to a deity in which we are not required by law to believe?
   

Quoting:


   Yes, it may seem that way, but I think that's mostly bacause Xianity is the predominant faith in this country, as well as the faith of the founders.
   I still maintain that throwing out the Pledge in its entirety was going a bit far.  I say take it back to it's pre-1951 ('52?) form.  This transforms the Pledge immensely, IMO, from a govenment endorsement of theism (the faithfull would say 'monotheism') and restore its original meaning.
   Furthermore,  if our Constitution guarantees the right of non-belief, how can the official pledge to uphold that Constitution contain a mandatory reference to a deity in which we are not required by law to believe?
   
End Quote

I can see your point here since christianity is the majority in our society, odds of probability would be that christianity would get detested/picked on more.  The question is how far are we going to take it? I'm definately aginst taken "In god we trust of off the money.  Its hard enough to get coins/bills to work in vendidng/game/paper machines as it is, and changing the money would just make the problem worse.

Quoting:

I'm definately aginst taken "In god we trust of off the money.  Its hard enough to get coins/bills to work in vendidng/game/paper machines as it is, and changing the money would just make the problem worse.
End Quote

   LOL!  Yeah, and when I want a Coke, I want it NOW, dammit!

Quoting:


   LOL!  Yeah, and when I want a Coke, I want it NOW, dammit!
End Quote

Quoting:
most, if not all, of us here discuss the topic not the person.
End Quote

i'm pretty sure that this comment was in no way aimed at me, but i can't help but wonder.  i really hope it isn't in reference to my using a specific post to illustrate a point, because that would be a gross misinterpretation of my words.  all i did was point out a post as an example of why i feel somewhat unwelcome here as part of a minority of alternative belief(s).  in no way did i discuss her as a person, and if you want to get right down to it, i did't even discuss her post, either.  i only mentioned it as an example because it was the one that made the biggest impression.  
like i said, i don't think that this comment was aimed at me because i didn't discuss anyone or attack anyone.  i'm not here to do that.  i just wanted to clarify in case there was a misunderstanding.

Quoting:

IMO, this issue has to be treated with logic, not emotion.
End Quote

Just wanted to explain I meant the above statement in reference to the decision-making process in the courts, not in the reactions and expressions of our opinion.

This is a very passionate subject.  ;)

I am very, very proud of us for respecting each other's opinion even if we disagree with it and for being able do debate the issue successfully in general.  :)

Quoting:


Just wanted to explain I meant the above statement in reference to the decision-making process in the courts, not in the reactions and expressions of our opinion.

This is a very passionate subject.  ;)

I am very, very proud of us for respecting each other's opinion even if we disagree with it and for being able do debate the issue successfully in general.  :)
End Quote

I'm suprised at me you know how I usually blow up  :-[ ;)

Quoting:




i'm pretty sure that this comment was in no way aimed at me, but i can't help but wonder.  i really hope it isn't in reference to my using a specific post to illustrate a point, because that would be a gross misinterpretation of my words.  all i did was point out a post as an example of why i feel somewhat unwelcome here as part of a minority of alternative belief(s).  in no way did i discuss her as a person, and if you want to get right down to it, i did't even discuss her post, either.  i only mentioned it as an example because it was the one that made the biggest impression.  
like i said, i don't think that this comment was aimed at me because i didn't discuss anyone or attack anyone.  i'm not here to do that.  i just wanted to clarify in case there was a misunderstanding.
End Quote

   No, panda, my comments we're not aimed at you or anyone in particullar, well, maybe a slight elbow in JC's ribs... ;)
   Re-reading all of your posts in this thread I detect a little defensiveness on your part, which I think was unnecessary though not improper.
   I can also tell (from your text) that your 'worldview' may be, more-or-less, similar to mine which is nice to see.

Quoting:
I agree that the most "user-friendly" decision would be to just eliminate the words "under God".  I wasn't suprised by the decision.  I'm just afraid that this will lead to bigger arguments.  For example, the majority of public schools in this country are excused for a "winter break" (a.k.a Christmas), Easter, and so forth.  Notice that the schools do not release for other religious holidays.  Will this lead to a change in holiday closure (as in...wil there no longer be a holiday for Easter, etc.) ?  Or will we have to take off every day because there is "something" being celebrated? (anybody get what I'm saying? I can seem to phrase it right....). Will there be a lawsuit that includes the argument "all the Christians get holidays.  Why can't school shut down for (fill in the blank)?" Sorry...scratch that...I have no idea what my point is anymore....
 I apologize for the sarcasm.  I am not a very religious person, but I do have to consider what will come of this.  It just seems that in a time when our nation needs to come together, there are to many things pulling us apart.  
End Quote

Well, in my old HS, we used to get the Jewish holidays too :D No objection there on my behalf, but I took my own proper holidays whenever I damwell pleased too :D :D

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:
I agree that the most "user-friendly" decision would be to just eliminate the words "under God".  I wasn't suprised by the decision.  I'm just afraid that this will lead to bigger arguments.  For example, the majority of public schools in this country are excused for a "winter break" (a.k.a Christmas), Easter, and so forth.  Notice that the schools do not release for other religious holidays.  Will this lead to a change in holiday closure (as in...wil there no longer be a holiday for Easter, etc.) ?  Or will we have to take off every day because there is "something" being celebrated? (anybody get what I'm saying? I can seem to phrase it right....). Will there be a lawsuit that includes the argument "all the Christians get holidays.  Why can't school shut down for (fill in the blank)?" Sorry...scratch that...I have no idea what my point is anymore....
 I apologize for the sarcasm.  I am not a very religious person, but I do have to consider what will come of this.  It just seems that in a time when our nation needs to come together, there are to many things pulling us apart.  
End Quote

When I was in High School, the Jewish Kids got to take their own holidays off, but they got the regular ones off two. I don't think the federal government would ever declare Easter or christmas no longer a national holiday, If anything well get more federal ho;idays before we get less.  

Quoting:
Hey! Screwball and Tarzan Boy! You two aren't going to go into this during our nice candlelit dinner in Hollywood are you? If you do, I'll have to make you sit on cones! Laaaaangdon....help me out here, they are going to spoil the duck l'orange.... :'(
End Quote

Ooooow! Unless the cone is upside-down; then it's ok, I guess (like one of those Jetsons furniture pieces). Whoa! I missed this whole candle-light dinner fiasco and I just got a RL dark-grey suit too (won't be buying or eating anything for a while now...). I was gonna go with the MIB/Pulp Fiction drag, but the salesman was very convincing - this dude could sell an Emperor a set of new clothes! Is this RSVP or do I just show up fashionably late and impromptu?

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:
 Aye, yae, yae...One step at a time, merry-beth. I see what you're saying but the 'package deal' is waaay to optimistic.
End Quote

actually,I'm NOT in support of that....I just think that this opens the door for ridiculous lawsuits.  last night, as I was signing off, I caught a debate on Fox news.  apparantly a woman of Middle Eastern descent went to get a driver's license photo taken (I believe it was in California, of all places).  Her religion provides that she wear a scarf over her head and covering her face.  The person taking her picture told her she needed to remove it for the license.  You can see where this is going.  

Quoting:I suppose the quagmire is deciding exactly what is and is not harmfull.
End Quote

And there will never be a consensus there because it's always relative to the individual.

Quoting:
If the words "under God" was not added until 1954, why can't they just amend it again?
End Quote

 Theoretically they could, but it is an election year and no politician or supreme court judge is going to suport this during an election year. Even the judge that decided this pulled a 180.

Quoting:

Perhaps there should be a little question on the enrollment application: My child ___will ___will not be saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

End Quote

Good Idea, but once "under god" is taken out, and a parent marks no, their kid should be ineligible for further enrollment in public school.

Quoting:

 Theoretically they could, but it is an election year and no politician or supreme court judge is going to suport this during an election year. Even the judge that decided this pulled a 180.End Quote

Why not, given that so many people object to the Pledge having those two words included?

Quoting:Good Idea, but once "under god" is taken out, and a parent marks no, their kid should be ineligible for further enrollment in public school.
End Quote

That was assuming that the Pledge would remain unaltered. If "Under God" were deleted from the pledge, there would be no reason to have the question on the enrollment forms.  However, if the Pledge sans "Under God" is still considered unconstitutional to those parents marking "no," I would guess that they have very little respect for anything our country stands for and would find our public educational system sorely lacking. Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's views, home schooling is probably the best way for them. They get the education that their parents desire, and the parents get to hold on to their own views.
Such a pity the kids would be inflicted with views THEY may not agree with, but HAVE to listen to because they are taught by the folks who think they know best...their parents. Choice and alternative thinking....hmmmm. Not at Mama's school!

Quoting:

Why not, given that so many people object to the Pledge having those two words included?

End Quote

I don't think a lot of people really object to the words being included, a lot of the regular posters on this massageboard do, but thats probaly to small a sample of the general public to get a good estimate.  Also I minority with a loud voice can create the "Ilusion" that a lot of people support thier cause.

  Up until three days ago did you even think about it or care?  It's been my expierience that more people want to resist change than conform to change, even when the change is for the better, not that I beleive that changing the pledge is for the better( I beleive the opposite, as you can tell from my earlier posts).

Quoting:


Ooooow! Unless the cone is upside-down; then it's ok, I guess (like one of those Jetsons furniture pieces). Whoa! I missed this whole candle-light dinner fiasco and I just got a RL dark-grey suit too (won't be buying or eating anything for a while now...). I was gonna go with the MIB/Pulp Fiction drag, but the salesman was very convincing - this dude could sell an Emperor a set of new clothes! Is this RSVP or do I just show up fashionably late and impromptu?

Tarzan Boy
End Quote

I think it has now been changed to a candlelit dinner and pool party at Langdons. So forget the suit and be sure to pack your swimtrunks! ;) Hey, do cones float? ???

Quoting:


I think it has now been changed to a candlelit dinner and pool party at Langdons. So forget the suit and be sure to pack your swimtrunks! ;) Hey, do cones float? ???
End Quote

Why am I the last to know about these things? I've already had the suit altered and everything to be picked up this blue Monday :-/ I was going to suggest The Irvine Improv since an acquaintance of mine will be there for amateur Open Mic Nite...

Langdon Hughes has a pool!? (BTW, cones do float...wait, you mean, like, orange cones, right?). If I had a pool, I'd sleep there. Seriously, it was so damme hotte ootside!

Tarzan Boy

Quoting:


"...I would guess that they have very little respect for anything our country stands for and would find our public educational system sorely lacking."End Quote

   Ugh...,this again...why, my dear Banasy, would you assume this?

Quoting:"Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's views, home schooling is probably the best way for them."End Quote

1) "Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's athiest views..."

2) Although it is unfair to hold the children responsible for their parent's theist views..."
   
   Get the picture...?

Quoting:"They get the education that their parents desire, and the parents get to hold on to their own views."End Quote

Absolutely!  I will raise my children with the ideas, ideals and values that I hold dear.  When they've reached an age and a capacity to take-over for themselves, they're free to decide to live how they wish.  Would Xian parents do any different?

Quoting:"Such a pity the kids would be inflicted with views THEY may not agree with, but HAVE to listen to because they are taught by the folks who think they know best...their parents."End Quote

   Untill my child reaches a certain maturity and a certain mental capacity to have some inkling of which views are the one's for him/her, they will continue to have my views, as you say 'inflicted' upon them, i.e., they learn the values and views of the household they're raised in.  Plain and simple.  
   And their parents don't know best?  Well, if not the parents, whom?  You?  George Busch?  Jerry Falwell?  Some guy named Larry in E. Podunk, New Jersey?