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Subject: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Screwball54 on 08/20/02 at 12:28 a.m.

How do you feel about spending our tax dollars to pay desendants of slaves for the hardships their ansesters had to endure?

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Hairspray on 08/20/02 at 01:34 p.m.

Just a friendly reminder to those who may be interested in reasponding to this subject:

Keep your responses within the Forum Guidelines:

http://www.inthe80s.com/rules.shtml


Violations will not be tolerated.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Taoist on 08/20/02 at 01:54 p.m.

This is a difficult one!
I think compensation's fitting when it will help victims overcome the effects of the 'crime' and it's appropriate to take this from the perpetrators of the 'crime' or others who benefit from it.
The problem here is:
1. Are the descendents of slaves still suffering from the effects of slavery and will these reparations help?
2. Are the current tax payers responsible for slavery or still benefitting from it?

IMHO, The bottom line is, if people in your country need help, then give it to them!  A culture is not only judged by it's best and brightest, but also it's lowest and most wretched citizens.

This question is also relevent to current events in Zimbabwe where minority (white) landowners are being forced to return land to the (black) majority.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 08/20/02 at 04:44 p.m.

In a word, no. In two words, hell no!

If there is a person alive out there who was a slave in this country, then by all means pay them. But their descendents? I don't think so!

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: dagwood on 08/20/02 at 06:49 p.m.


Quoting:
In a word, no. In two words, hell no!

If there is a person alive out there who was a slave in this country, then by all means pay them. But their descendents? I don't think so!
End Quote



I agree with you, Lester.  Besides the fact that there are no slaves or slaveowners alive anymore, there are alot of people in this country who's ancestors had nothing to do with slavery.  Is it right for them to pay?  I think the reparations should have been made to the actual slaves by the actual slave owners.  

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Natalie on 08/20/02 at 09:32 p.m.

I'll keep it short and sweet on this one (mainly because I could go on for days and days, and I'm sure I would fail to keep within the forum guidelines).

NO!

For starters, if we paid reparations to descendants of slaves, shouldn't we also be required to pay reparations to Native American descendants or Jewish descendants?  You can't pay one ethnic group and not another.  It's unfortunate, but MOST of our ancestors suffered.  Times have changed, however, and great strides have been made toward equality and civility.  Why must we always revert back to the past?  All our ancestors ever wanted was equality - now we've got it (well, for the most part), so what's the problem?  

Also, Why in the world should WE, the people of the 00s, have to pay for mistakes our ancestors made hundreds of years ago.  Furthermore...

Actually, I better quit while I'm ahead.   :-X :-X :-X

I guess that wasn't too "short & sweet."

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Screwball54 on 08/20/02 at 09:32 p.m.


Quoting:


I agree with you, Lester.  Besides the fact that there are no slaves or slaveowners alive anymore, there are alot of people in this country who's ancestors had nothing to do with slavery.  Is it right for them to pay?  I think the reparations should have been made to the actual slaves by the actual slave owners.  
End Quote



Good point, another one to consider is that if are tax dollars go to reperations then decendants of slaves would also be paying reporations.  Also, how do we tell who was a decendant?

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: langdon_hughes on 08/21/02 at 08:02 a.m.

My question is this: If Reparations are paid, do we then call it even and get rid of all African-American equal opportunity employment demands, African-American exclusive scholarships, African-American exclusive government assistance, African-American small business assistance, and claims of racial discrimination? Worst thing the community could do.

I'm with Taoist, help members of your society. But don't tell me a particular individual is OWED anything. Oh, I've benefitted? Well, then I'd like to be paid for all the railroads MY ancestors put down but were never paid for...

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Jessica on 08/21/02 at 08:37 a.m.

No, they shouldn't get paid for something their ancestors suffered through.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Screwball54 on 08/21/02 at 09:05 a.m.


Quoting:
My question is this: If Reparations are paid, do we then call it even and get rid of all African-American equal opportunity employment demands, African-American exclusive scholarships, African-American exclusive government assistance, African-American small business assistance, and claims of racial discrimination? Worst thing the community could do.

End Quote



If this were to happen, I would fully support reperations.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Thursday on 08/21/02 at 10:35 a.m.


Quoting:
For starters, if we paid reparations to descendants of slaves, shouldn't we also be required to pay reparations to Native American descendants or Jewish descendants?  You can't pay one ethnic group and not another.  
End Quote


actually the situations are completely different between the treatment of the ethnic groups.. the government is mainly to blame for the treatment of the africans being slaves in plantations.. they put out the laws and allowed these things to happen... with the jews... their hardships were in no way forced upon by Americans... the american government made laws to allow and condone the wrongful treatment of africans... although it would be the descendants being payed, it would still be the right thing to do to compensate for thier horrible mistakes... now do i think americans should pay for this compensation?
no. but as a voting public you are responsible for the decisions of the government in some small ways..



Closing song:
Billy Joel - We Didn't Start The Fire

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 08/21/02 at 02:43 p.m.


Quoting:
but as a voting public you are responsible for the decisions of the government in some small ways..
End Quote



But not for slavery. There is not a person alive today who was a slave, owned a slave or voted for any public official who was in office during that period of history.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Thursday on 08/21/02 at 04:54 p.m.

do you think the germans should pay higher taxes to compensate for the descendants of holocaust victims?
i sure as hell do...


Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Indy Gent on 08/21/02 at 06:16 p.m.

I would say if, and only if, the people asking for reparations can prove they were descendants of slaves,contrary to popular belief. Not everyone with dark skin can make that claim. But I do feel uncomfortable answering this question, as do others. :-/

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: dagwood on 08/21/02 at 06:42 p.m.


Quoting:

the american government made laws to allow and condone the wrongful treatment of africans


End Quote



It wasn't today's government, though.  I don't think people should be made to pay for mistakes their ancestors made.  If they do have to pay then what is to stop someone from making a descendent of a mass murder go to jail for the murders commited by an ancestor.  

Remember, too, that alot of people were sold into slavery by fellow countrymen.  I don't know how to say this without offending so I will say it, please don't be offended anyone.  Black men sold their brothers into slavery in Africa.  Those sold then came to america.  It was wrong, but if America should pay reparations then shouldn't the descendents of those men who sold these people to begin with?

Ok, I am off my soap box ;)

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 08/21/02 at 07:07 p.m.


Quoting:
do you think the germans should pay higher taxes to compensate for the descendants of holocaust victims?
i sure as hell do...



End Quote



No, I don't.  How do you determine which Germans should pay? Do those born post-WW II have to pay as well? Is this some sort of general tax that they have to pay simply for being German? Do we also have the Japanese pay reparations to the families of all the Americans killed at Pearl Harbor?  Once this path is started down, there is no end.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: southernspitfire on 08/21/02 at 07:29 p.m.

I think it is another crock of sh!t to try to get more money out of people for something that happened way to long ago.  Someone, somewhere is always looking to get rich..and this is another way....Hey..I have it...lets have reparations for all men that did not have the choice to be circumcised as infants!! ::)  

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Zella on 08/21/02 at 11:03 p.m.

Hmmmm.... if I can prove that my ancestor fought for the North against slavery during the Civil War, am I exempt from the tax....? ???

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: RockandRollFan on 08/22/02 at 09:23 a.m.

Hey...I have relatives who fought in WW2 so the government owes ME....or how about all the people who died at Pearl Harbor...or Hiroshima....or The Holocaust.....and what if I could prove I am riencarnated and was killed during the Revolutionary War... :-/

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Natalie on 08/22/02 at 10:18 a.m.


Quoting:
and what if I could prove I am riencarnated and was killed during the Revolutionary War... :-/
End Quote



Then I think you've got yourself a case, my fine young friend.

As ludicrous as that sounds, that's pretty much what's going on right now.  Amazing!

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Natalie on 08/22/02 at 10:34 a.m.


Quoting:

actually the situations are completely different between the treatment of the ethnic groups.. the government is mainly to blame for the treatment of the africans being slaves in plantations.. they put out the laws and allowed these things to happen... with the jews... their hardships were in no way forced upon by Americans... the american government made laws to allow and condone the wrongful treatment of africans... although it would be the descendants being payed, it would still be the right thing to do to compensate for thier horrible mistakes... now do i think americans should pay for this compensation?
no. but as a voting public you are responsible for the decisions of the government in some small ways..



Closing song:
Billy Joel - We Didn't Start The Fire


End Quote



I disagree, the situations aren't completely different.  The point I was trying to make was that there have been many ethnicities that have suffered throughout time.  Regardless if the Govt. had anything to do with their situation or if we as Americans had anything to do with their situation, they still suffered.  

Besides, how is receiving money going to compensate for their suffering?  What's done is done, and no amount of money is going to change that.  

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: RockandRollFan on 08/22/02 at 10:46 a.m.


Quoting:


Then I think you've got yourself a case, my fine young friend.

As ludicrous as that sounds, that's pretty much what's going on right now.  Amazing!
End Quote

Thanks, my Much Finer & Younger friend ;)  It really does work too...when I was drafted I told them I had already served in the military :D

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: FussBudgetVanPelt on 08/23/02 at 05:35 a.m.


Quoting:
Someone, somewhere is always looking to get rich..and this is another way....Hey..I have it...lets have reparations for all men that did not have the choice to be circumcised as infants!! ::)  
End Quote



Hey hey !

I knew if I waited long enough there would be a way of making some money out of it  ;D

The First Cut Is The Deepest....

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Zella on 08/23/02 at 09:09 a.m.


Quoting:


Hey hey !

I knew if I waited long enough there would be a way of making some money out of it  ;D

The First Cut Is The Deepest....
End Quote



LOL! That is the second time this morning you almost made milk come out of my nose! ;D (and hey -- saved me and J.C. doing that beschnitten oder unbeschnitten thread! ;D ::) )

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: the_OlLine_Rebel on 08/26/02 at 02:29 p.m.


Quoting:
Oh, I am all for paying reparations.

Let's start with the African countries from whence the slaves came from and collect money from the tribes that sold their own people to the White Man. Next, we can go to Portugal, The Netherlands, Spain, France, and England and collect money from these evil Imperialists since, they too, dealt in the slave trade that directly led to the propagation of slavery in the United States.

End Quote



OMG!  This is what I was going to say - how scary is that?  Not often that TB and I can see things the same way.

Yup, who gets the main blame?  The US is a set of colonies from the British who got involved in the slave trade along w/Spain (big time) who really started the whole Africa-to-America thing.

I'd also like to add, that we must not only use simplistic phraseology like "descendents", but must calculate more precisely what % of our ancestors were slavers or slaves, and that is how much you pay, or get paid, out of so much 100% per person if they paid/rcvd full.  After all, given that that was 150 years ago, the average person has 8 to 32 ancestors from that specific period, not to mention earlier periods.  You can't believe that most people have every 1 of those ancestors fit the categories.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Meltd0wn on 08/29/02 at 12:55 a.m.

how about this?
If they only use the money to "turn back time and save the ancestors from slavery"

i know this sounds silly and childish, but its no less silly or childish than expecting strangers to pay you for something that happened to a populace that has absolutely no impact on you in this day and age.

I guess im just trying to say. Get a real job and pay for things yourself. and stop trying for a free ride.

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: Edgewood_Dirk on 08/30/02 at 08:03 a.m.

My question is, who would pay? Would the government do a background check on every white person in the U.S. to see if an ancestor had slaves? Or would they simply raise the taxes of white people in a special fund and disperse among blacks? In the latter case, it would ignore people decending for non-slave-owning families as well as people who immigrated to the U.S. after the abolishment of slavery...

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: the_OlLine_Rebel on 08/30/02 at 11:36 a.m.


Quoting:
My question is, who would pay? Would the government do a background check on every white person in the U.S. to see if an ancestor had slaves? Or would they simply raise the taxes of white people in a special fund and disperse among blacks? In the latter case, it would ignore people decending for non-slave-owning families as well as people who immigrated to the U.S. after the abolishment of slavery...
End Quote



Dirk, the latter would be the most efficient way so that those wanting to exploit their (alleged) ancestors' misery could get the most money most quickly.  Figuring out who had any ancestors fitting those categories - and maybe how many to boot - would take a massive genealogical effort.  Then again, what a great way to create jobs, huh?!

Subject: Re: Reperations for slavery?

Written By: philbo_baggins on 09/02/02 at 03:33 a.m.


Quoting:
 Black men sold their brothers into slavery in Africa.  Those sold then came to america.
End Quote


It wasn't really their brothers they sold: AIUI, warring tribes would sell off as many of the opposition as they could get their hands on. (my info mainly comes from reading "Flash for Freedom/Flashman and the Angel of the Lord" - can't recommend them and the other Flashman books highly enough as a fun trip through history http://www.harryflashman.org/home.htm)

Phil