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Subject: Indian Politics

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/04/03 at 05:48 p.m.

This one will cross a guys legs.

Indian Court Rules Eunuchs Are Men

By CHANDNI SINGH
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

JABALPUR, India -- A court in central India has ruled that eunuchs are male, barring them from seeking elected offices reserved for women.

The High Court of Madhya Pradesh state on Monday upheld a lower court ruling barring Kamla Jaan from becoming mayor of the town of Katni because the post was set aside for women to encourage their participation in politics.

The town planned to hold another election. Jaan - who had been the first eunuch to win public office in India - planned to appeal to India's Supreme Court.

Eunuchs live on the fringes of India's class-conscious society, surviving by begging and collecting tips for dancing at weddings, blessing newborns and taking part in other ceremonies. Most of the country's tens of thousands of eunuchs are castrated as babies or children, though a few are born without male genitalia.

Eunuchs, who refer to each other by female pronouns and consider themselves women, are believed by some Hindus to bring good luck. But they are discriminated against in education and barred from government and other high-level jobs.

After independence from Britain in 1947, India launched an affirmative action plan to wipe out caste distinctions. Eunuchs weren't included in the plan.

Jaan was elected mayor in 1999 in a vote seen as a reaction against government corruption. Later, three eunuchs won seats on municipal bodies and one was elected to the Madhya Pradesh state legislature.


Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: John_Seminal on 02/04/03 at 11:27 p.m.

In India, whatever caste you are born to you must live in. If you try and change to a different(better) caste then you can get killed. They believe in reincarnation, and if you did bad things in a previous life then you come back in a worse caste in this life. They believe the only way to get to a better caste is to do what their religion requires of you in this life.

I remember reading a story where someone changed their name so it would sound like it came from a better caste, and then travled to go to a city where nobody would know who he was. This person hoped that they could learn a trade and have a better life. Somehow, people discovered what he did, so they took him back to his viliage and killed his entire family. Their caste system is based on religion, so they see it as a duty to keep caste order.

I think the real problem is not with India or the people who live in India but with a few currupt politicians who see the caste system as a way to hold onto power. I would bet you if you eliminated dirty cops and politicians, India would flourish. They really are a nice people.

Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: Goreripper on 02/05/03 at 05:33 a.m.


Quoting:
I think the real problem is not with India or the people who live in India but with a few currupt politicians who see the caste system as a way to hold onto power. I would bet you if you eliminated dirty cops and politicians, India would flourish. They really are a nice people.
End Quote



India has a lot of problems, not the least of which is the caste system. As you've already explained, the caste system doesn't allow people to elevate themselves from their position in society. A person from a lower caste can never be a company president over someone from a higher caste, for example. India is a country where the vast majority of people exist at or below poverty level, and yet the country has a highly developed nuclear capacity and an extensive space program. Millions die of hunger in the streets, and yet herds of cattle wander the nation untouched because the Hindu religion fetes them as incarnations of the god Brahma. It's madness.

Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: XenaKat13 on 02/05/03 at 12:35 a.m.


Quoting:

JABALPUR, India -- A court in central India has ruled that eunuchs are male, barring them from seeking elected offices reserved for women.


{...}


Most of the country's tens of thousands of eunuchs are castrated as babies or children, though a few are born without male genitalia.



End Quote



I gotta agree with India's court on this one.

They are born in a male body, and no matter what they do to themselves surgically, (or have done TO them) for culture or religion, it does not change the basic fact of birth.

Now, if they were taking female hormones to affect an actual sex change, it would be an entirely different story.

Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: Paul S. on 02/05/03 at 02:25 p.m.


Quoting:
In India, whatever caste you are born to you must live in. If you try and change to a different(better) caste then you can get killed. They believe in reincarnation, and if you did bad things in a previous life then you come back in a worse caste in this life. They believe the only way to get to a better caste is to do what their religion requires of you in this life.

I remember reading a story where someone changed their name so it would sound like it came from a better caste, and then travled to go to a city where nobody would know who he was. This person hoped that they could learn a trade and have a better life. Somehow, people discovered what he did, so they took him back to his viliage and killed his entire family. Their caste system is based on religion, so they see it as a duty to keep caste order.

I think the real problem is not with India or the people who live in India but with a few currupt politicians who see the caste system as a way to hold onto power. I would bet you if you eliminated dirty cops and politicians, India would flourish. They really are a nice people.
End Quote



Actually the caste system was abolished in India way back in 1947.  It's illegal to discriminate against someone because of caste or anything else like that in India.

BUT, like was the case here in America, old habits die hard.  In America, segregation was made illegal in 1954, but it wasn't till the late 60s/early 70s that people started obeying those laws.  Since India isn't as socially progressive as America, it's taking them even longer to break the social customs that have been ingrained in them for thousands of centuries.  But has the caste system has been illegal in India for over 50 years now, but people still like to brag about it if they come from a high caste, and discrimination still goes on there.  

Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/05/03 at 02:50 p.m.

A local talk raidio station I listen to on occasion discussed it this morning.  Kind of fascinating that a culture like this still exists in a country that is astechnologically advanced as India.  I thankfully don't understand it, a family that would choose to asexualize thier children in the name of tradition or culture is bizarre.  
This one ranks right up their with clitorectamies in some African cultures.

Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: John Seminal on 02/05/03 at 02:59 p.m.


Quoting:


Actually the caste system was abolished in India way back in 1947.  It's illegal to discriminate against someone because of caste or anything else like that in India.

BUT, like was the case here in America, old habits die hard.  In America, segregation was made illegal in 1954, but it wasn't till the late 60s/early 70s that people started obeying those laws.  Since India isn't as socially progressive as America, it's taking them even longer to break the social customs that have been ingrained in them for thousands of centuries.  But has the caste system has been illegal in India for over 50 years now, but people still like to brag about it if they come from a high caste, and discrimination still goes on there.  
End Quote



I dunno about the law being that effective. The whole caste system is tied in with the religion. India is going to have a hard time enforcing that law. It would be the equivelent if the USA decided to outlaw some Christian religious practice. It would be very difficult to make that change because many people see religion as above country. Who would you rather be loyal to: your God or your country?

I also wonder if schools are opening up to the untouchables. While there may be some headway in social integration of some of the lower caste classes, I would bet that the untouchable class is not allowed to benifit. They are considered so dirty and low that people from higher castes are not to talk to them or touch them. From what I have read, they are not allowed to learn how to read and are not allowed to go to school.

Plus, India is having lots of trouble with muslims. Evidently they go back and forth killing one another. I am not a history expert, but I recall from a college class learning that India gave as a gift a huge chunk of land for muslims to have as their own seperate country, but the muslims are not happy and want more, so they terrorize Indians by burning temples and killing people. This is tied into the question of caste because when your religion is threatened it tends to make people defensive and want to protect it. It is next to impossible to be introspective under these conditions.

If anyone is interested in India, there is an excellent book called "A Fine Balance". It was on the Oprah show and it won many awards. It is based on actual living conditions in India. I highly reccomend this book. Once you start reading it, you will not be able to put it down.

Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: Goreripper on 02/05/03 at 06:54 p.m.

That large chunk of land you're referring to is now known as Pakistan. There is still dispute between the two countries over the Punjab region.  

Subject: Re: Indian Politics

Written By: Paul S. on 02/05/03 at 11:26 p.m.


Quoting:
That large chunk of land you're referring to is now known as Pakistan. There is still dispute between the two countries over the Punjab region.  
End Quote



Yup, it's Pakistan.  The nuclear war that almost broke out last year between India and Pakistan was over the disputed region of Kashmir.  The Muslims wanted their own state, and broke off a northern part of India in 1947 and called it Pakistan.  This was much to Ghandi's objection, he never wanted to see his country be divided up.  Pakistan wants more, they want Kashmir because it already has a heavy Muslim population, but India doesn't want to give up more land to Pakistan.

But the Indians have been learning a hard lesson that Israelis have known for centuries.  And Americans are learning too.  When you occupy a Muslim land, you will get terrorism, and the Indians have been getting plenty of it.  The Indian Parliment building was attacked by suicide bombers in December of 2001, and that pushed India to the brink with Pakistan.  America could only sit and watch, because we had already talked big about cracking down on terrorists, and then India gets attacked and they want to go to war---using us as an example!  I was scared to death last year that a nuclear war would break out.  I knew India probably wouldn't strike first, they are the more reasonable country, but Pakistan is scary.