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Subject: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: shazzaah on 02/17/03 at 09:42 a.m.

At Least 21 Die in Chicago Night Club Stampede



By Andrew Stern

CHICAGO (Reuters) - At least 21 people were killed, mostly trampled or crushed to death at a Chicago night club on Monday when they scrambled to escape fumes from a crowd control spray used to break up a fight, fire department and local media reports said.

"People just died in my arms," Tonita Matthews, a young woman who was at the club and tried to help those injured, told the Chicago NBC television affiliate.


Witnesses said a fight broke out between two women and a security guard used a crowd control agent, perhaps pepper spray, to break it up. Patrons began to flee the fumes and were told they had to exit via a steep front stairway, witnesses said, even though there was at least one rear exit.


There were an estimated 1,500 party goers in a second floor dance hall above the Epitome restaurant on Chicago's near South Side when the stampede occurred before 3 a.m. CST.


Matthews said she was at the front of a group which ran down the stairs and managed to get out the front door where she started giving CPR. While some responded she said she knows at least one man died in her arms and fears she lost others as well.


"I seen so many people on top of each other dead," she said.


Lamont James Jr., who works for the Chicago park district, said he was trapped for a while in a pile of bodies on the front stairs but managed to escape.


"The bodies were literally piled up from the top to the bottom of the stairs," he told WGN television in Chicago. He also said a rear exit was not open.


The Chicago Fire Department said four died at the scene and many more were taken away suffering cardiac arrest. It did not have a final official death toll but the Chicago Tribune and other media outlets said a check of several hospitals to which victims were taken showed that 21 had died.


The club was in a popular black entertainment district south of downtown Chicago, across the street from the Chicago Defender newspaper.


The Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites) who came to the scene said he had been told that between 18 and 20 people had perished in the stampede and that the tragedy was clearly accidental.


The club was packed with party-goers staying out before dawn on Monday's national holiday.


Derrick Mosley, a community activist who lives in the area, said city officials had been concerned about some violent incidents that had occurred in or near the club and that the venue was often heavily crowded. .

I am sure there could have been another way to handle the situation. You have to wonder who was in charge here.



Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: philbo_baggins on 02/17/03 at 10:02 a.m.

If pepper spray was harmless, it'd be no use, either...

However, to use it in such an environment seems to show a lack of understanding of the (entirely predictable) effects on bystanders - it's nasty stuff, and of course people are going to try and get away.

Phil

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: dagwood on 02/17/03 at 10:02 a.m.

This is so sad.  Pepper spray should not be discharged inside, especially in a crowded room, to stop a fight.  I think it should be used to fend off an attacker...but not for much else.  This is an example of people not thinking before they act.  My prayers are with the families of those killed and injured.

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Crazy Don on 02/17/03 at 10:41 a.m.

My heart goes out to those who lost loved ones in this incident.  This is all too sad.  :'(

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/17/03 at 10:47 a.m.

I just read this incident and I could not think of a more horrible death, my sympathies to all involved.  The sheer stupidity of this club and the bouncers to not only spray the stuff indoors but to also have many of the exits blocked.  This is going to involve criminal charges and lengthy lawsuits.

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Goreripper on 02/17/03 at 08:18 p.m.

The exits were blocked. If this had been a fire, no one would have escaped.

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Wicked Lester on 02/18/03 at 01:45 p.m.

Wasn't there a night club in Harlem or someplace a few years ago that caught fire, but had all the exits locked?

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Rice Cube on 02/18/03 at 04:37 p.m.

A lot of bars do seem to break fire codes, at least the ones I have been to in Chapel Hill.  There are some that are underground, where it's like you only have one exit and if the roof collapses on it then you're screwed.  Then there are the clubs that are on upper stories--those are just as bad because there is only one way out and it's along a really narrow staircase.  Not good business.

The way I heard the story in Chicago, it was just a couple of girls fighting.  I'm sorry to sound sexist, but them bouncers (who I will assume are professional and BIG) couldn't take care of two catfighting girls without pepper spray?

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/18/03 at 05:55 p.m.

You see that the Rev. Jesse Jackson is involving himself in this?  Apparently he is an old friend of the father of the club manager and is trying to stear the liability towards the city because they didn't follow through on the violations and crowd control.  I new this was going to get ugly, just didn't think this bad this quick.  

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Steve_H on 02/18/03 at 05:57 p.m.


Quoting:
You see that the Rev. Jesse Jackson is involving himself in this?  Apparently he is an old friend of the father of the club manager and is trying to stear the liability towards the city because they didn't follow through on the violations and crowd control.  I new this was going to get ugly, just didn't think this bad this quick.  
End Quote



You've GOT to be joking...

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: 80sRocked on 02/18/03 at 06:02 p.m.

Quoting:
You see that the Rev. Jesse Jackson is involving himself in this?  Apparently he is an old friend of the father of the club manager and is trying to stear the liability towards the city because they didn't follow through on the violations and crowd control.  I new this was going to get ugly, just didn't think this bad this quick.  
End Quote



::)

Well, surprise surprise.  

Nothing more than a ploy by the ol' so-called "Reverend" to get some face time on TV, if you ask me.  And I'm sure he'll find a way to make a few $$$ out of it too, he always does. ::)

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Rice Cube on 02/18/03 at 06:02 p.m.

People STILL listen to Jesse Jackson?  ???

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/18/03 at 07:15 p.m.

Here is a small piece on it, I saw something earlier today that had a bit more to it but can't locate yet.
Club Owner's Connections Include Jesse Jackson & Son
'A Responsible Individual And A Responsible Businessman'

POSTED: 7:08 p.m. CST February 18, 2003
UPDATED: 7:12 p.m. CST February 18, 2003

CHICAGO --

Crushed To Death

Friends, including Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. (D-Ill.), are coming to the defense of the club owner whose Chicago nightclub was the scene of 21 deaths when customers piled up in a rush for the door early Monday morning.

Dwain Kyles' father is a civil rights leader and friend of Rev. Jesse Jackson. Jesse Jackson Jr. -- a childhood friend -- issued a statement Tuesday calling Kyles "a responsible individual and a responsible businessman."

Kyles' pastor, Bishop Larry Trotter, said Kyles is confused and hurt by the incident but willing to take full responsibility for it.

The city is seeking criminal charges against Kyles for keeping the club open despite building code violations.

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/18/03 at 07:17 p.m.

A bit more detail from a Chicago news radio station site.
Tuesday, February 18, 2003, 4:02 p.m.

(Chicago) -- The Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. spoke outside the club Tuesday morning, calling for an independent investigation, at a governmental level above the city, possibly by Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan. Because the city agencies may have culpability in the incident, they may not be able to police themselves.

"My sense is they know lawsuits are on the way. They are looking for a quick fix solution that would leave the people in the cold."

Jackson began his talk outside the club, then walked to the makeshift memorial, where he bowed his head in prayer.

Late Tuesday morning outside the club, Pastor Anthony Williams of St. Stephen's Evangelical Lutheran Church, 910 W. 61st St., joined the call for an investigation independent of the city departments.

"If there isn't a full-scale investigation independent of the city, then we'll never know the truth," said Williams.

Williams said he intends to send a letter to Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office.

A representative from Madigan's office could not be reached Tuesday afternoon Williams accused police and fire officials of having knowledge of the club's "illegal activities," and accused other community activists such as the Rev. Jesse Jackson of "pulling a grief hustle."

Williams claimed Jackson was "using this tragedy for his own gain" and had helped keep the club open, saying Jackson knew the club owner and the club owner's father.

A representative for Jackson could not be reached to comment on the accusations.

But Andre Peden, stepfather of 22-year-old Nicole Patterson, who died in the stampede, said Williams was using the disaster as "a stepping stone for attention and personal gain."

Speaking to the media after Williams, Peden described the attacks on Jackson and the Chicago Police Department as "in bad taste."

"This is not the way to handle the situation," Peden said. "We need to wait until the dust settles, and until we know the facts, before we begin pointing fingers."

"People are mourning the loss of their loved ones, and these people are trying to profit off it," said Peden, a security guard for 27 years.

Peden arrived outside the nightclub at about 10 a.m. Tuesday, carrying pictures of Patterson and her 3-year-old son Angelo.

He described Patterson as "a wonderful person, who loved to dance."

Patterson had recently taken a job as a security guard, said Peden, who did not know where she worked.

He said Patterson's mother was getting ready for work Monday morning when she saw television coverage of the disaster, knowing her daughter frequented the club.

The family began calling area hospitals and eventually learned Patterson did not survive the tragedy

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 02/18/03 at 09:15 p.m.

This is all I've been hearing on the news here.   ::)  Someone called Jesse Jackson less than 1 hour after it happened to get him involved.  The club has a long history of violations, and was about to lose it's liquor license.  Also, in the past, it had used off-duty Chicago cops as security.  It's a tragedy, yes, but I have to say that I have a problem with the city, as well.  They say that the club wasn't supposed to be open due to code violations so why was it?  

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/18/03 at 11:16 p.m.


Quoting:
This is all I've been hearing on the news here.   ::)  Someone called Jesse Jackson less than 1 hour after it happened to get him involved.  The club has a long history of violations, and was about to lose it's liquor license.  Also, in the past, it had used off-duty Chicago cops as security.  It's a tragedy, yes, but I have to say that I have a problem with the city, as well.  They say that the club wasn't supposed to be open due to code violations so why was it?  
End Quote

Please keep us posted on what happens with this, it will drop from the National news pretty soon but I know that there is going to be heads rolling.

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Indy Gent on 02/19/03 at 07:58 p.m.

Yes pepper spray is harmless and people nowadays will react to spraying water being thrown in their eyes since 9/11.
Although I am saddened by the trampling deaths in Chicago, I think a lot of common sense could have prevented this tragedy. :(

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Goreripper on 02/19/03 at 08:24 p.m.

After the Happy Land tragedy in 1990, the victims' families were awarded a share of $15 million from a civil suit against the city of New York, which didn't close it down even though it was illegal. So yes, the city should share some of the blame; however, the fire exits were blocked. That's the club's fault, not the city's.

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/19/03 at 08:51 p.m.

Anyone here see the movie Barbershop?  It was a good black cast ensemble flick that featured one goofy character that questioned the ethics and motives of Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks.  He was quickly shouted down and told that his opinions were silly.  I bring this up because Jesse Jackson publically denounced this movie without seeing it, he felt that it was bad for the black cause.  21 people die a horrid, painful, slow death, crushed and/or suffucated by other bodies in a BLACK club and he is quick to defend the management of the facility.  I don't understand his priorities.
Perhaps the city is responicble for not making certain the club was not operation, but were they responsible for operating it under code?  Selling entrance to it?  Blocking the exits? The actions of it's security staff?

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 02/20/03 at 07:48 a.m.


Quoting:
Anyone here see the movie Barbershop?  It was a good black cast ensemble flick that featured one goofy character that questioned the ethics and motives of Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks.  He was quickly shouted down and told that his opinions were silly.  I bring this up because Jesse Jackson publically denounced this movie without seeing it, he felt that it was bad for the black cause.  21 people die a horrid, painful, slow death, crushed and/or suffucated by other bodies in a BLACK club and he is quick to defend the management of the facility.  I don't understand his priorities.
Perhaps the city is responicble for not making certain the club was not operation, but were they responsible for operating it under code?  Selling entrance to it?  Blocking the exits? The actions of it's security staff?

End Quote



Well, Jesse Jackson was a longtime friend of the owner's father (Rev. Billy Kyles) and has known him all his life.  He told the Chicago Police Chief "This was a legitimate black business, and would I see what I could do to work with them."  He (Jackson) wanted the Chicago police to have a car there from midnight to 4 am for security, which they said they couldn't, but stepped up patrols in the area during those hours.

I agree that the city is not responsible for the operation of the club, but they are saying that they had done everything they could to close the club through legal channels.  I disagree with this.  The problems with this club started when the club opened.  I just don't believe that it was a priority until this occurred.  The club had been operating in violation of a court order since July 2002.  I honestly believe that if Jesse Jackson wasn't involved, the club would have been closed long ago.

Subject: Re: Still think pepper spray is harmless?

Written By: shazzaah on 02/20/03 at 07:53 a.m.

This just goes to prove that if you put a weapon, lethal or no, in the wrong hands, people die. Something as "harmless" as pepper spray can cause allergic reactions, suffocation, and cardiac arrest (duh!!!!). If the girls were fighting, they would have been better off turning a fire extinguisher on them. The club should not have been operational in the first place. And as far as Rev. Jesse Jackson, well, I think if I were him I would be finding something a little less ghetto to defend: A nightclub operating in violation of a court order that is now responsible for the deat of 20+ people  isn't exactly moral high ground.