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Subject: Faith
I'm kinda stealing this topic away from another thread (just a bit though)
Faith in religion- Where does it come from, how is it aquired? I know there is so many people that have some sort of faith in a higher being or power or whichever it is best labled for you. It crosses all lines from origin, education, income, etc so it must be a powerful thing, so why don't I got it ???
My family on mom's side is Episocpal, dads, is LDS, I've done some churching with both and my ears didn't bleed. I go with the Christian ethics and morals, they work well when applied. I've never been abused by any church related person or event, I've got nothing against organized religion or people that practice and I think that it does well for society for the most part. I just don't got that faith part down. I don't have trouble with the idea of faith, I'm faithful to my wife and family friends and even that maddening dog. I have faith in my wife so I don't think it has anything to do with no being able to aquire faith.
I think what it comes down to is that religious faith doesn't make a whole lot of sence to me and I don't seek answers to questions I haven't found the answers to yet.
Faith- It's more than just a George Michael song, right? ;)
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
Faith- It's more than just a George Michael song, right? ;)
End Quote
You KNEW I would do this, Race! You just KNEW it!!! :D
Well I guess it would be nice.
If I could touch your body.
I know not everybody
Has got a body like you.
But I've got to think twice.
Before I give my heart away
And I know all the games you play.
Because I play them too.
Oh but I Need some time off from that emotion.
Time to pick my heart up off the floor
And when that love comes down.
Without devotion.
Well it takes a strong man baby
But I'm showing you the door.
'Cause I gotta have faith...
Baby I know you're asking me to stay.
Say please, please, please, don't go away
You say I'm giving you the blues.
Maybe.
You mean every word you say
Can't help but think of yesterday.
And another who tied me down to loverboy rules.
Before this river.
Becomes an ocean.
Before you throw my heart back on the floor
Oh baby I reconsider.
My foolish notion.
Well I need someone to hold me But I'll wait for something more.
Yes I've gotta have faith..
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
You KNEW I would do this, Race! You just KNEW it!!! :D
End Quote
Well Rice, I did have Faith! ;D
That is still a great tune.
Subject: Re: Faith
Faith is belief against what your reason will tell you. You cannot reason with faith. It is a blind trust, and not everyone can do that I guess. I believe in Jesus. I believe he came and he died for me, and that his wisdom is a treasure and a life guide. As for the details, well , that is why I am a Progressive Christian. There are too many questions and I believe my faith will lead me to a life long pursuit of knowledge. I don't have all of the answers, but I have faith that one day, I may.This is just IMHO- I do not speak for anyone else for myself, and I respect other people and their right to seek faith where they may, or if they choose not to, I respect that as well.
My description of faith? See under my avatar. :) BTW it isn't a quote from the bible.
It is a quote from Dracula. ;D
Subject: Re: Faith
Just because I have zero faith in religion doesn't mean that I lack faith. I just believe in other things...
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
Just because I have zero faith in religion doesn't mean that I lack faith. I just believe in other things...
End Quote
This is a good point.
Subject: Re: Faith
People are gonna believe what they believe....I knew a gal a few years back who's ancestors were killed by Joseph Smith (IMO the guy who "Made Up" the Mormon Church)...who in turn was shot in his cell by an angry mob....who had most likely had there loved ones killed by joe because they didn't believe in him. I would just like to say that I have had friends who are LDS...it's just something I choose not to follow....anyway, I cite some examples for my feelings.
1. In the late 1800's the US Government would not grant statehood to Utah unless they gave up practicing Poligamy....next thing you know thier leader says he'd recieved a "Revelation" that it shouldn't be practiced anymore and Utah became a state.
2. In 1978 the show "60 Minutes" was looking into why no blacks were allowed to hold the priesthood.....it was a 2 part show covering 2 weeks....well...you guessed it....the church president recieved a "Revelation" in between the shows and just like that blacks could become priests....please note that I think they should've had that right all along anyway....
3. In the 80's there was a "Mysterious" fire at the church offices that just happened to destroy the criminal records of good old joe....
Okay...tie me up and burn me now ::)
Subject: Re: Faith
Sooo... certain aspects of faith have to do with trying to debunk anothers' beliefs? I don't get it.
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
Sooo... certain aspects of faith have to do with trying to debunk anothers' beliefs? I don't get it.
End Quote
I was just expressing my views on mormonism...only MY opinion....they have as much right to thier believes as does anyone of any denomination. As for MY faith, it has been severely tested since my sons death.....
Subject: Re: Faith
Lets keep it nice boys, the subject is to discuss faith as it pertains to religion. :)
Is it innate or aquired? Found or a gift bestowed? Flexible, or rigid as a rock?
Am I going to go to your faiths hell cause I haven't found it? Don't worry, I won't be offended with anyones answer to that question. ;)
Subject: Re: Faith
Ah faith! But the question is -- what degree of faith is required for a belief system? Most religions agree that a certain amount of faith must be involved in the spiritual process. But do any or most religions encourage a scrutiny of whatever facts can be gleaned from the bowels of history? I cannot speak for Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, etc., but I do know that any Christian preacher worth his salt will encourage a seeker to go beyond the process of faith alone. God gave us brains and the ability to reason and he certainly expects us to use them. Would a God who provided us with such attributes expect us to bury our heads in the sand, and live on blind faith alone? Absolutely not!
Most religious belief systems are grounded in some type of literature that stems from a period of historical time. Therefore, anyone wishing to seriously assess a faith must go forth with an open mind and then diligently study the texts of that faith. Read them. Read also what has been said about them and their claims, both pro and con. And then use your brain and your reason to determine which, if any, might be based on a distinguishable truth. After you have determined the basic solidity of a particular religion's claims, you will still have ample opportunity to exercise your faith on the details. No religion can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but one or more may stand firm on preponderance of evidence. Faith can take you from there...
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
Just because I have zero faith in religion doesn't mean that I lack faith. I just believe in other things...
End Quote
Good point, TB...
The consideration is further complicated by my personal belief that "religion" is somehow intrinsic to human nature. Christianity can die off, Islam can disappear in a nuclear cloud, and the Buddhists can disappear into caves forever, but baseball fans will always believe that holding their breath at just the right moment somehow affects the outcome of the game; children will eternally fear the mysterious shadows of evil creatures that are not really there; lovers will forever exaggerate the significance of their passions. I'm not sure superstition can be thoroughly stamped out of humanity; it seems a necessary part of the psyche. And, being cooperative beasts such as we are, the notion of organized superstition--e.g. religion--seems to be something that will plague us until the end of time.
After all, when we slay the gods, what next? How many generations will wrangle and sweat and weep and bleed over economic theories? Human moral demands will meet again on this battlefield as competing paradigms square off to the discord of vastly-differing presumptions.
And when we figure economy, what of love and pride and the differentiations that cause our hearts to break?
It may be that the joy of life derives its legitimacy from a concept that we would call religious. After all--can you imagine a human species that is wholly objective? Do we aspire to become the Borg?
Just the daily myth wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in a henley, wrapped up for smoking ....http://images.andale.com/f2/116/115/6042312/1047199367399_leaf.gif ;D
Subject: Re: Faith
I think Shaz said it perfectly. Faith is not easy to keep but it does keep me happy.
Rice, Race...you guys said it exactly. I read the topic of the thread and started in with "you gotta have faith" ;D
Subject: Re: Faith
As I said before....MY faith is being severely tested lately :-/
Subject: Re: Faith
I don't know how people come by their faith.
The only thing I can add to this discussion is a quote from William James:
Knowledge about a thing is not the thing itself. You remember what Al-Ghazzali told us in the Lecture on Mysticism,- that to understand the causes of drunkenness, as a physician understands them, is not to be drunk. A science might come to understand everything about the causes and elements of religion, and might even decide which elements were qualified, by their general harmony with other branches of knowledge, to be considered true; and yet the best man at this science might be the man who found it hardest to be personally devout. Tout savoir c'est tout pardonner. ... If religion be a function by which either God's cause or man's cause is to be really advanced, then he who lives the life of it, however narrowly, is a better servant than he who merely knows about it, however much. Knowledge about life is one thing; effective occupation of a place in life, with its dynamic currents passing through your being, is another.
This is from James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience." You can pick it up cheap just about anywhere, or read it off the web. Here's a link to one e-text site: http://www.csp.org/experience/james-varieties/james-varieties.html
Subject: Re: Faith
I am in awe of people who have great faith in God. I believe in God and I have faith in him - but for me it is a HUGE struggle. I know how I should live, it is just hard to put that into practice and live that way. It seems to come easier to other people.
In my case, I had a number of experiences that just made me believe - something happens to you (or it did in my case) that makes everything seem real. It's like you cant ignore the message anymore cos God is speaking directly to you. This may sound very strange to people who havent experienced it - but it is what I have experienced.
Subject: Re: Faith
First Race, let me explain what faith is. It is not (sorry Shaz) a belief in something that we know to be untrue. It is a belief in something that we have no evidence whether it is true or not.
For example; if someone you trust tells you something. You will tend to believe it because you trust that someone. Even if you have absolutely no evidence of the truthfulness of the thing which you are told, you believe it anyway because you trust the person who told it to you.
In this instance you have faith in two things:
1- The person who told it to you would not lie.
2- The thing they told you is true.
Religion is based on faith because there is nothing else to base it on. It's no wonder that many, many people thumb their noses at religion and the practices thereof.
In order to believe in a religion you must believe those who are telling you that you must, for one reason or another, follow that religion or you are going to suffer.
So, if you believe them then you are exercising "faith" in that what they are telling you is true.
If you are looking for faith in a religious context you have to ask yourself a question:
Do I believe what the leaders of this church are telling me?
If the answer is yes then you have faith in that church. If the answer is no then you don't. If the answer is "I don't know, but I want to know" then you need to do more soul searching and more research into the beliefs of that particular church.
I hope this was helpful to you.
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
First Race, let me explain what faith is. It is not (sorry Shaz) a belief in something that we know to be untrue. It is a belief in something that we have no evidence whether it is true or not.
For example; if someone you trust tells you something. You will tend to believe it because you trust that someone. Even if you have absolutely no evidence of the truthfulness of the thing which you are told, you believe it anyway because you trust the person who told it to you.
In this instance you have faith in two things:
1- The person who told it to you would not lie.
2- The thing they told you is true.
Religion is based on faith because there is nothing else to base it on. It's no wonder that many, many people thumb their noses at religion and the practices thereof.
In order to believe in a religion you must believe those who are telling you that you must, for one reason or another, follow that religion or you are going to suffer.
So, if you believe them then you are exercising "faith" in that what they are telling you is true.
If you are looking for faith in a religious context you have to ask yourself a question:
Do I believe what the leaders of this church are telling me?
If the answer is yes then you have faith in that church. If the answer is no then you don't. If the answer is "I don't know, but I want to know" then you need to do more soul searching and more research into the beliefs of that particular church.
I hope this was helpful to you.
End Quote
This is why spirituality (as opposed to religion) is a very personal life search for everyone. This is why I am a "Progressive Christian", I do not belong to a particular denomination. Denomination means exclusion. Exclusion of other faith systems and values. I do not exclude anyone, I do not tell others how to find God. I accept that their path to God is different from mine. My phrase under my avatar means this to me: I, as a creature of reason, know that I have never seen God physically. I still believe He is there. Therefore, I believe what to my reasoning mind is untrue. That is the difference between my faith and someone who goes to church every day but has no idea why they do it.
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
This is why spirituality (as opposed to religion) is a very personal life search for everyone. This is why I am a "Progressive Christian", I do not belong to a particular denomination. Denomination means exclusion. Exclusion of other faith systems and values. I do not exclude anyone, I do not tell others how to find God. I accept that their path to God is different from mine. My phrase under my avatar means this to me: I, as a creature of reason, know that I have never seen God physically. I still believe He is there. Therefore, I believe what to my reasoning mind is untrue. That is the difference between my faith and someone who goes to church every day but has no idea why they do it.
End Quote
Well, I hope you're farther along in your search for personal spirituality than I am in mine right now.
After reading your post I understand better what the saying below your avatar means. Thank you.
I was raised LDS but got into some morality trouble ( I was bangin' my girlfriend) and got ex'd. This was about 20 years ago and since then I've been just kind of drifting as far as clinging to any religion is concerned.
It's hard for me to get away from the things I was taught the whole time I was a child and a young adult. If I say anything directly against the LDS religion I feel like a blasphemer and that God will punish me for it.
Sometimes though, I think that if I had been raised a Muslim I would feel the same about Allah and Mohammed as I do now about God and Jesus Christ.
I believe that my faith in God and Jesus is a true faith but that the faith of a Muslim in Allah and Mohammed is not a true faith. Then I have to ask myself "how can that be?"
Isn't their faith just as valid as mine?
I don't know that God exists and I don't know that Jesus was his son and is the savior of the world.
And the muslims don't know that Allah exists.
Maybe I should get myself adopted into some Native American Indian tribe. Then I can just believe in the "Great Spirit".
Sorry if I've offended any Native Americans.
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
Maybe I should get myself adopted into some Native American Indian tribe. Then I can just believe in the "Great Spirit".
Sorry if I've offended any Native Americans.
End Quote
Pass the bong over here, Davester 8)
Animism is not so bad, man.
That's why I couldn't think of myself as atheist, agnostic, or a deist. When all I believe in is energy, there is no need for a conscious superior being dispensing justice among mankind. Energy is just energy. It only changes form, right? First law of thermodynamics. Btw, has it ever been proven that energy can be made and destroyed? Because, thermodynamically speaking, your energy will go on for a long time; it will become part of your surroundings. You may not have recollection of your past atoms and molecules, but they existed long before your consciousness did and they will exist long after you lose it.
May the Force be with you,
-g. b.
----------------------------------------------------
Proud to be un... bah! You know what I mean :) :D ;D
---------------------------- ------------------------
Subject: Re: Faith
I'd have to say that faith in anything or anyone is something you acquire, you cannot be born with it.
You cannot possibly have faith that the girl you meet today will become your wife five years from now. You have to spend time with her, get to know her, her personality, her beliefs, her backgroud, before you can ever have faith that she will not only say "yes" when you propose, but will also remain monogamous with you. You acquire your faith in her love and fidelity over time.
I believe religious faith works the same way. A lot of people have intense faith in the religion they were born to. A lot don't. I couldn't even begin to guess why, I just know it is, otherwise there would not be so many thousands of people converting to different religious traditions all the time.
If people were born with faith, those who do convert would not need to change from the church, temple, mosque, or other house of worship they were born to. For these folks, it takes years of soul-searching, research, and sometimes a unique experience (not necessarily of the supernatural type) before they realize exactly what it is they believe, and why they do so.
Subject: Re: Faith
Quoting:
God gave us brains and the ability to reason and he certainly expects us to use them. Would a God who provided us with such attributes expect us to bury our heads in the sand, and live on blind faith alone? Absolutely not!
End Quote
Actually, this is quite a modern theory, and still one that isn't necessarily espoused by the more fundamentalist religious teachers. The Taliban, for example, basically banned education beyond elementary school level because they believed that everything one needed to know could be found in the Koran and the teachings of Mohammed. There are also Christian fundamentalist groups that disavow any teaching disciplines that don't agree with the Bible. The idea that independent thought and discovery is a gift from God only really gained acceptance in Western society around the time of the Renaissance and the Reformation of the Church. Prior to that, people who espoused theories that were contrary to the Bible were forced to recant or die.
Subject: Re: Faith
I think the lyrics to this song sums it up pretty well for a lot of people. Like its creator, it's a little rough-edged, direct, and as close to the bone as you can get. It's from The Highwaymen's The Road Goes On Forever.
I DO BELIEVE
------------
by Waylon Jennings
I'n my own way I'm a believer
in my own way right or wrong
I don't talk too much about it
it's something I keep working on
I don't have too much to build on
my faith has never been that strong
There's a man in that old building
he's a holy man, they say
he keeps talking about tomorrow
while I keep struggling with today
he preaches hell, fire and brimstone
and heaven seems so far away
I do believe in a higher power
one that loves us one and all
not someone to solve our problems
or to catch me when I fall
he gave us all a mind to think with
and to know what's right or wrong
he is that inner spirit
that keeps us strong
In my own way I'm a believer
but not in voices I can't hear
I belive in a loving father
one I never have to fear
that I should live life at it's fullest
just as long as I am here