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Subject: They're blaming the media for youth violence again
I guess I won't be going to the mall dressed as Agent Smith anymore... :'(
TEEN IN 'MATRIX'
By IKIMULISA LIVINGSTON and RITA DELFINER
------------------------------------------------------------
July 8, 2003 -- The New Jersey teen accused of plotting a Columbine-like killing spree plot in his south Jersey suburb imagined himself as the star of "The Matrix" and kept a list of people who teased him going back to grade school, those who know him said.
Matthew Lovett, 18, and two pals aged 14 and 15 were dressed in black and armed to the teeth when they were nabbed early Sunday - an arrest that authorities said thwarted a 2,000-bullet rampage in Oaklyn, a small Philadelphia suburb.
Lovett's acquaintances said the "Matrix" fan often donned all-black garb and sometimes referred to himself as "The Mystic," "The One" or "Neo" - Keanu Reeves' computer-hacker character who is hailed as a savior by a band of humans battling machine mayhem.
Lovett and his juvenile companions had plotted since January to kill three unidentified teens in Oaklyn, then "go through the town" and randomly kill people, said Camden County Prosecutor Vincent Sarubbi.
The teens, armed with guns legally owned by Lovett's dad - including rifles, a shotgun and handguns - also had swords, knives and 2,000 rounds of ammunition when they were arrested after the failure of their "first step," a carjacking, Sarubbi said.
The boys were standing in front of Oaklyn Public School when Matthew Rich drove by.
Rich, the group's alleged intended victim, said he stepped on the gas, sped away and notified cops.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
eh, nothing new...of course everything is the media's fault in today's world...afterall, no on thinks for themselves anymore according to too many people...
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Why can't they just blame the youth for youth violence?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
if they want to blame something..why dont they focus on the news channels half the time
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Hmm....strange, we have an almost identical media in this country (U.K.) but completely different gunlaws. How many Columbine-like killings have we had?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
Hmm....strange, we have an almost identical media in this country (U.K.) but completely different gunlaws. How many Columbine-like killings have we had?
End Quote
ok, look at the state of Vermont, they have no gun laws...look at their crime statistics, lowest crime rate than any other state...
and columbine was done by older kids who thought on their own actions...you cannot blame guns for the fact that they were outcasts...unlike Michael More would say...
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Has anyone asked why they came up with this solution to their problems? In fact, has anyone asked them what their problems were in the first place?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Before blaming the media, maybe people should look to America's foreign policies. America is very quick to use force and violence to solve it's problems (including lack of oil) so why should American citizens act differently?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
To answer Hoeveel's question about U.K gun crime. I have not seen The Matrix so I don't know what a Columbine killing is.
But two examples that stick in my mind are Michael Ryan in Hungerford in the mid/late eighties who went on a gun crazed killing spree and then shot himself. The other, was the Scout leader in Dunblane in the 1990s (?) that went off his head, entered a school and shot everybody in sight.
Both cases are 'Time-bomb' killings.
We rarely have them in Britain but when they do occur are as harrowing as anywhere in the world.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
To answer Hoeveel's question about U.K gun crime. I have not seen The Matrix so I don't know what a Columbine killing is.
End Quote
Columbine is a high school in Colorado where a couple of guys went on a killing spree (like Dunblane)
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Ah! I remember now - I thought it was something specifically to do with The Matrix.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
ok, look at the state of Vermont, they have no gun laws...look at their crime statistics, lowest crime rate than any other state...
and columbine was done by older kids who thought on their own actions...you cannot blame guns for the fact that they were outcasts...unlike Michael More would say...
End Quote
Actually, that's exactly what Michael More said. Had you watched Bowling for Columbine, he doesn't blame our gun laws. He gives us Canada as an example. The number of guns in Canada equals half of its population, yet they have a teeny tiny murder rate.
More goes through every explanation for why we are such a violent country (our murder rate is like ten times that of any other industrialized nation). It isn't our history of violence, because the European powers used to be much more war-like than we used to be. It isn't violent media, because Japan is the violent video game capital of the world and they have around 100 or so gun deaths a year. More blames the incredible fear that we have of each other. He then blames the news media for instilling that fear in us. You have to watch his comparison between our news media and Canada's. It's pretty amusing.
One critic said that you may very much disagree with More on a lot of things, but you might actually find yourself agreeing with him on the observations he makes.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
Has anyone asked why they came up with this solution to their problems? In fact, has anyone asked them what their problems were in the first place?
End Quote
I can tell you their problems, their problems were that they were useless fu---POST CANNOT BE COMPLETED DUE TO ANTI-PROFANITY FORUM RULES---
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
you cannot blame guns for the fact that they were outcasts...unlike Michael More would say...
End Quote
Huy, nah. I weren't saying that. I was saying that outcasts with guns are slightly more dangerous than outcasts with nowt.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
On the subject of the profanity rules. Just for future reference: Is it just the usual F&C words that aren't allowed? And is using asterisks acceptable?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
I think that all the explanations advanced are just too simple. In the U.S., lots of parants just aren't involved in their kids lives - that must hurt (My dad was VERY involved in my life, from scouting to baseball, to fishing trips etc. at times, I thought then, too much involved. Now, I appreciate it). The media portrays violence as inconsequention. The government uses violence to achieve its ends. We read about violence ever day in the paper. Violence is normal in the U.S. Why should we be surprised that it is contagious?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
I think all behaviors are learned. It used to be that competition was good and even if you lost, you felt good for the effort. At least that is how I was taught as a child in little leauge baseball and sports. Now it is all about winning, or finding a way to screw the other person. Look at American political campaigns- There are more negative ad's then positive ones. What is a surefire way to make sure someone is not elected? Sling some mud their way. I think our society is more concerned about the "I" than the "we". And our television show illustrate the way we are. I do not watch the "American Idol" show (the one where people compete for who is the best singer), but from the clips I saw I was shocked. There was some guy telling singers how bad they were and how much they sucked. And there was commentary about who was fat/ugly/worst dressed. Are we getting to a culture where only the winner can leave feeling good? How about letting them all enjoy their singing and praising them. I guess there are no ratings in watching that.
So, what do kids do with their spare time? They watch movies where people get even by killing and hurting others. Then they play video games which re-inforce this "get even" behavior. I would like to see kids spend time outdoors playing sports and learning how to act as a team, and feeling good even if they do not win.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
I quite liked that bloke on the Idols prog - Simon Cowell, was he? Kind of refreshing. I'm sure some of you have seen that erm...Wannabe's programme on MTV where they get 3 people and see which one knows the most about and can act the most like a particular celebrity like J-Lo or Eminem. On that, there were some absolutely dire performances that made you cringe and all the judges would do would be to put on a big grin and to say something like 'That was nearly perfect, but i liked number 2's rendition just slightly more'. :-/ :)
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I think all behaviors are learned. It used to be that competition was good and even if you lost, you felt good for the effort. At least that is how I was taught as a child in little leauge baseball and sports. Now it is all about winning, or finding a way to screw the other person. Look at American political campaigns- There are more negative ad's then positive ones. What is a surefire way to make sure someone is not elected? Sling some mud their way. I think our society is more concerned about the "I" than the "we". And our television show illustrate the way we are. I do not watch the "American Idol" show (the one where people compete for who is the best singer), but from the clips I saw I was shocked. There was some guy telling singers how bad they were and how much they sucked. And there was commentary about who was fat/ugly/worst dressed. Are we getting to a culture where only the winner can leave feeling good? How about letting them all enjoy their singing and praising them. I guess there are no ratings in watching that.
So, what do kids do with their spare time? They watch movies where people get even by killing and hurting others. Then they play video games which re-inforce this "get even" behavior. I would like to see kids spend time outdoors playing sports and learning how to act as a team, and feeling good even if they do not win.
End Quote
You hit some really important issues. It seems today it is not how you play the game but whether you WIN. With the "American Idol" (which I have never watched), isn't there room for more than one singer? I always thought that veritility was the spice of life.
There are other shows that you have to work as a team but then, someone gets voted off the island or becomes the weakest link. What ever happened to "All for one and one for all"?
I always thought that you encourge people to be their best. There will ALWAYS be someone better than you-you don't have to be perfect. But constant put-downs, "You are fat/ugly/suck" etc. leads to low self-esteam. People with low self-esteam feel like they don't have anything to lose, so they either try to get revenge on the people who put them down (i.e. "go postal") or they just give up and commit suicide.
I really wish that more shows would show a more postive display towards their constants. But of course what baffles my mind is that people subject themselves to that abuse all for their 15 minutes of fame.
Cat
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I guess I won't be going to the mall dressed as Agent Smith anymore... :'(
TEEN IN 'MATRIX'
By IKIMULISA LIVINGSTON and RITA DELFINER
------------------------------------------------------------
July 8, 2003 -- The New Jersey teen accused of plotting a Columbine-like killing spree plot in his south Jersey suburb imagined himself as the star of "The Matrix" and kept a list of people who teased him going back to grade school, those who know him said.
Matthew Lovett, 18, and two pals aged 14 and 15 were dressed in black and armed to the teeth when they were nabbed early Sunday - an arrest that authorities said thwarted a 2,000-bullet rampage in Oaklyn, a small Philadelphia suburb.
Lovett's acquaintances said the "Matrix" fan often donned all-black garb and sometimes referred to himself as "The Mystic," "The One" or "Neo" - Keanu Reeves' computer-hacker character who is hailed as a savior by a band of humans battling machine mayhem.
Lovett and his juvenile companions had plotted since January to kill three unidentified teens in Oaklyn, then "go through the town" and randomly kill people, said Camden County Prosecutor Vincent Sarubbi.
The teens, armed with guns legally owned by Lovett's dad - including rifles, a shotgun and handguns - also had swords, knives and 2,000 rounds of ammunition when they were arrested after the failure of their "first step," a carjacking, Sarubbi said.
The boys were standing in front of Oaklyn Public School when Matthew Rich drove by.
Rich, the group's alleged intended victim, said he stepped on the gas, sped away and notified cops.
End Quote
>:( >:( ::) ::) :P :PWhat a stupid s#%@!!!!Obviously he deserved it.And what made those two stupid jerks decide to follow him???These people all say it was because someone was teasing them,but the ones who get killed are never anyone that does anything bad.I say print the names and photos of the two 'juveniles' in the paper;they'll be 18 soon enough anyway! >:(Cheers!
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I always thought that veritility was the spice of life.
End Quote
Oh Yeah! ;D ;) ;D
Or did I read that word wrong?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
Oh Yeah! ;D ;) ;D
Or did I read that word wrong?
End Quote
OOPS!!! I meant versatility. :-[
Cat
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I always thought that you encourge people to be their best. There will ALWAYS be someone better than you-you don't have to be perfect. But constant put-downs, "You are fat/ugly/suck" etc. leads to low self-esteam. People with low self-esteam feel like they don't have anything to lose, so they either try to get revenge on the people who put them down (i.e. "go postal") or they just give up and commit suicide.
Cat
End Quote
This is why I think sports are important for young children. If they keep trying, they will get better. Don't want to strike out? Take extra batting practice, and you will learn to make contact more often. And that will teach them that they are in control. The other great thing about sports is, even if you get into name calling, that chances are by the time you are done playing you will be so exhausted that you will not care what other people said. Nobody is born a "Barry Bonds" or "Micheal Jordan". What they all have in common is they started and did something well. Even the small things. And someone probably said "good job" or "nice shot". The next thing you know, 2000 games later, they are the best at what they do.
Contrast sports with a kid who watches TV and plays video games. What do they learn? If someone calls them a negative name, they have all night to stew with hate. And probably the next day to. All that negative energy builds up and has nowhere to be release. All this while learning about revenge in shoot'em-up games. And I bet that kid feels like he has less control. So what happnes? The kid takes as much teasing as they can and then they snap.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
OOPS!!! I meant versatility. :-[
CatEnd Quote
Don't be embarassed. Guys like this. 8)
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
Contrast sports with a kid who watches TV and plays video games. What do they learn? If someone calls them a negative name, they have all night to stew with hate. And probably the next day to. All that negative energy builds up and has nowhere to be release. All this while learning about revenge in shoot'em-up games. And I bet that kid feels like he has less control. So what happnes? The kid takes as much teasing as they can and then they snap.
End Quote
What about kids writing and/or having a hobbie?
As a former high school outsider (taunted by bullies & the only kid in H.S. & all the other schools with a cleft pallet) , I disliked sports. And not much atheletic, even in P.E. Not everybody likes sports.
Though I did tried some activities and left.
I took up writing on my high school journal. (Mostly about entertainment & everyday "stuff" from school)
Basically, I liked it, but I didn't want to be an entertainment journalist (nor the highschool newspaper) because I wasn't into nu metal/hip hop.
As for bullies, I ignored them. I used to fight in elementry school, I stopped in 4th grade. (through therapy)
Though some of my teachers thought the journal was interesting. (I graduated in 2002)
Now living my own life. That's all I'm mentioning.
...I decided to pick up hobbies as collecting vinyl & stuff that I was (still is) interested in.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
BTW, I think "blaming the media" is a lame excuse.
I assume that it's from society and how their parents raised them.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
What about kids writing and/or having a hobbie?
End Quote
I am for anything which is constructive. If writing your thoughts in a journal helps you reflect on what you are feeling/experiancing, then I think that is good.
What I think is wrong is the level of violence in video games and movies which are marketed for kids. It is kinda like what the tobbaco industry did when they marketed cigarettes with cartoon characters. I also think it would not be a bad idea to bar alcohol marketing from sporting events.
I guess I would like to see a more innocent time, when a kid could have fun and not be bombarded with so many negative signals.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
So, what do kids do with their spare time? They watch movies where people get even by killing and hurting others. Then they play video games which re-inforce this "get even" behavior. I would like to see kids spend time outdoors playing sports and learning how to act as a team, and feeling good even if they do not win.
End Quote
(edited fotr brevity)
Right on John.
We use to be a society of activists. Now, we are a society of spectators, or at best, passive participants. I remember playing sandlot baseball where kids changes teams in the middle of the game to make things more equal, without adult supervision - we just wanted to have fun - I don't remember even keeping score.
I coached my son's little league team several years ago. A kid on the opposing team "caught" by a line drive in the solar plexes, doubled over, and was crying. His dad raced onto the field yelling at him to stand up and "be a man". I raced on to the field to make sure the kid wasn't seriously hurt. My team applauded him as he came off the field. At that point I think the tears in his eyes were not from pain. His father, though, was a jerk (with respect to Hairspray ;)- he was worse than a jerk ).
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
I wouldn't blame violent movies and "get even" video games. And what does being a spectator society have to do with a kid going nuts and attempting to shoot people. (Unless you're just pointing out what's wrong with kids today. In which case, you're still wrong.)
I have a question. Why is it that when a shooting takes place in a white school/neighborhood everyone freaks out and demands to know what this world is coming to and why we have violent video games. Why do we wait for violence to occur in middle America before we do anything about it?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I couched my son's little leage team several years ago. A kid on the opposing team "caught" a line drive in the solar plexes, doubled over, and was crying. His dad raced onto the field yelling at him to stand up and "be a man". I raced on to the field to make sure the kid wasn't seriously hurt. My team applauded him as he came off the field. At that point I think the tears in his eyes were not from pain. His father, though, was a jerk (with respect to Hairspray ;)- he was worse than a jerk ).
End Quote
Actually, one of the best things which happened to me as a person was while playing baseball in little leauge (I was 9 or 10 years old). I was playing short stop, and for some reason I did not want to get directly in front of a line drive to catch it; I would side step and try to glove it and 90% of the time the ball would fly right by me into left field. One of the fathers who came to the practices came running on the field about the 5th or 6th time I did it, and YELLED at me to get in front of the ball. I wanted to quit and go home, but this man would not let me. I was so mad at him, and fed up with short stop. He yelled at me about "do not quit and let the team down" and "don't be scared of the ball". He would not let me off the field, he stood right next to third and stared at me. Funny thing is, I stayed in front of the ball out of fear of HIM, not the ball any more. I credit him with helping me learn how to play shortstop and not quitting. If I had coaches like him in high school, I still might be playing. He forced me to learn how to do it the right way. And he was nothing more than some kids dad who came to all the practices except that he happened to care enough to let me have it.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I wouldn't blame violent movies and "get even" video games. And what does being a spectator society have to do with a kid going nuts and attempting to shoot people. (Unless you're just pointing out what's wrong with kids today. In which case, you're still wrong.)
I have a question. Why is it that when a shooting takes place in a white school/neighborhood everyone freaks out and demands to know what this world is coming to and why we have violent video games. Why do we wait for violence to occur in middle America before we do anything about it?
End Quote
I think your second paragraph anwsers your first one.
Here are some interesting studies at universities:
http://web.lemoyne.edu/courseinformation/Psy101/Handouts/Research%20News%20Violent%20Video%20Game%20Play%20Increases%20Aggression.htm
http://lists.extension.umn.edu/pipermail/health/2003-January/000732.html
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
There was also a study that said shooting video games improves quick thinking and reactions. There are studies to prove everything.
As far as video game violence goes, I am desensitized to video game violence, yes. But real life violence still freaks me out. I really don't like seeing human blood. Big ugly bruises, scars, scabs, etc. are gross too... unless they're on me, then they're coooool!
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
What I think is wrong is the level of violence in video games and movies which are marketed for kids.
End Quote
I dunno. Personally, i don't think violence in videogames is much of a problem. I think it can serve as an outlet for those kinds of frustrations: you can kill a load of pixelated people rather than do it in real life and deal with guilt and consequences. :-/
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I dunno. Personally, i don't think violence in videogames is much of a problem. I think it can serve as an outlet for those kinds of frustrations: you can kill a load of pixelated people rather than do it in real life and deal with guilt and consequences. :-/
End Quote
I strongly disagree. Killing "pixelated people" as a method of venting is dead wrong. We should never let a kid think the correct way of venting is simulated violence. There was a time when people felt shame for doing wrong things. Instead of shame, when someone does something wrong like stealing, they feel happy that they "got away with it". What we will have is a new generation of criminals with no feelings of guilt for violence because that is what we taught them as children.
There is so much more wrong than violence. I found one link which is very imformative:
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2003-03-07/27.asp
Here is a paragraph reviewing vice city from the link above:
"We feel we need to push it into people's faces - we want violence and sex and everything else in our games - because we are adults. It's about living out your fantasies virtually that you are not able to. If you want to shoot Jesus and smoke crack with whores, that's all right.""
Like I originally said, I think kids should have the television turned off and be taken to a baseball field and taught how to hit a baseball. Or a basketball court. Or a bike path. Anything is better than what we have in video games.
Edited to add:
Give a kid something they can feel good about, something they can do and be proud of. I think a kid is much more likely to remember hitting a home run in a little leauge game and feeling great than to remember shooting up someone in a video game as a great event in their childhood memory.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
I wouldn't blame violent movies and "get even" video games. And what does being a spectator society have to do with a kid going nuts and attempting to shoot people. (Unless you're just pointing out what's wrong with kids today. In which case, you're still wrong.)
I have a question. Why is it that when a shooting takes place in a white school/neighborhood everyone freaks out and demands to know what this world is coming to and why we have violent video games. Why do we wait for violence to occur in middle America before we do anything about it?
End Quote
THe point is the extent to which we want to be entertained rather than entertaining ourselves. I once overheard a bunch of kids "playing". One said "Lets play the Cosby show". Another replied "Which episode?" Lots of people have been studying media for a long time and have come to recognize that its influence, taken as a whole, is pervasive. It influences all our preferences, all our choices, and the way we relate to each other.
As to your question, people freak out because violence in "nice middle class" neighborhoods has been unexpected. On the other hand violence in the inner cities IS expected, and so we have become habituated to it, and callous toward it. The same callousness is produced by the constant exposure to violence.
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Video games don't make you callous to the suffering of real people. I don't really think it would be cool to snipe someone between the eyes in real life, but when they are not real, it gives you some real satisfaction to get them when they're not looking. Feels the same in paintball, only more dramatic.
Why don't people complain about paintball? Why don't people complain when kids play war or play with army men?
I don't think exposure to fake violence makes you violent. I think people who are naturally violent (Poorly brought up, mentally unbalanced, chemically unbalanced etc.) use ideas from video games to reveal their violent nature. My point is that kid would have gone crazy with or without help from The Matrix. The Matrix just helped him create his dream world in which he could justify his killing.
Anyone up for a game of Halo?
Subject: Re: They're blaming the media for youth violence a
Quoting:
Video games don't make you callous to the suffering of real people.
End Quote
It's not just video games, it's the entire cultural melieu than either condons violence are sensationalizes it, that makes people callous.
So I would respond that your opinion is noted, but most phsychologist, phsyciatrists, and media experts disagree, and I think their work is sound.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.