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Subject: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Don_Carlos on 07/19/03 at 07:21 p.m.

I just finished watching a "discovery Channel" show about two stone aged groups, one in Etheopia and one in Brazil.  Both peaceful, seemingly happy, content with their lives.  Both probably have a life expectency much lower than ours, and a significantly higher infant mortality rate.  Both follow an "anamistic" religion, beliving that god inhabits all creatures, and all must therefore be revered, even as they eat some of them.  Both are hunters/gatherers/horticulturalists/hearders.  Both tend to go naked, by the way, and have rather unwestern notions of beauty - wearing "things" in the lips of their women.  What obligation to them do we moderns have?  Should we intervene in their lives to help them with our modern marvels, or should we leave them alone to make their own way?  What is our moral obligation to these people?  I ask this because I have very mixed feelings about it myself, and would appreciate the input of others.

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: John_Seminal on 07/19/03 at 07:36 p.m.


Quoting:
I just finished watching a "discovery Channel" show about two stone aged groups, one in Etheopia and one in Brazil.  Both peaceful, seemingly happy, content with their lives.  Both probably have a life expectency much lower than ours, and a significantly higher infant mortality rate.  Both follow an "anamistic" religion, beliving that god inhabits all creatures, and all must therefore be revered, even as they eat some of them.  Both are hunters/gatherers/horticulturalists/hearders.  Both tend to go naked, by the way, and have rather unwestern notions of beauty - wearing "things" in the lips of their women.  What obligation to them do we moderns have?  Should we intervene in their lives to help them with our modern marvels, or should we leave them alone to make their own way?  What is our moral obligation to these people?  I ask this because I have very mixed feelings about it myself, and would appreciate the input of others.
End Quote



I think they should be left alone. For all you know, they could be having much more fulfilling lives than we do. What is life? You do something which makes you feel important, try to anwser the question of why you are here, and try to find enjoyment. Tribal people may have it as good as anyone. You said they have a theory of God and there is no reason to rush to thier village to tell them they are wrong by western standards. It could be that they fish every day or hunt, provide for their families and community and are happy. Why ruin it for them when we do not have all the anwsers yet. Maybe a more relaxed life is better? I would bet that Americans could learn something about community from them (from the few programs i have seen about tribal people, they have a strong sence of community and help each other and share)!

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Billy_Florio on 07/20/03 at 00:18 a.m.

darned if you do, darned if you dont

if we dont help them then we are not helping the less fortunate and we will get complaints from socialists for not sharing the wealth

If we do help them then we are infringing on their way of life, and their values, and their systems of society.  and we will get yelled at by Hippies for not letting people live the way they want....

its a perfect catch-22

has anyone seen the movie "The Gods have gone crazy"?  Look what a coke bottle did!  Personally, I say leave them alone....its too much trouble to help them...

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Race_Bannon on 07/20/03 at 01:32 a.m.

Good question Don Carlos.  
Sad thing is we're going to effect them whether we intend to or not, it may be a few more years until it's direct but modern societies  arel about growth and expansion, even into remote rainforests.  Should we send christian missionaries and bright eyed peace corps volunteers?  No, they should allowed to live and die their culture and beliefs, look at the american indian and the aleuts up north, we didn't do them any better than what they had.  

Subject: Re: Obligations to

Written By: Dude on 07/20/03 at 04:51 a.m.

Quoting:


has anyone seen the movie "The Gods have gone crazy"?  Look what a coke bottle did!  
End Quote

Not nickpicking here but it's "The Gods Must Be Crazy", and yeah, I've seen it a bunch of times and loved it!!
AFA the excellent question DC asked, I'm like him in that I really don't know "the answer". I lean toward leaving them be. The eloquent way John Seminal explains it comes close to expressing my sentiments. When it's all said and done "tribal people have it as well as anyone". If it a'int broke, don't fix it.

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 07/20/03 at 10:51 a.m.

I also say "leave them alone", but I agree with Billy, it's a catch-22.  If they come to us and ask for help, I say we give it to them, but if not, let them live their lives in the way they choose.

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: John_Seminal on 07/20/03 at 11:00 a.m.


Quoting:
I also say "leave them alone", but I agree with Billy, it's a catch-22.  If they come to us and ask for help, I say we give it to them, but if not, let them live their lives in the way they choose.
End Quote



Yep, if they ask for help I think we should give it to them. If we see things like massive disease that can be easily cured, we should go and ask if they want help. The cool thing about these tribes (I think tribe is a better word than primitive) is they sometimes know things we do not. I remember reading something about how many new drugs are discovered by talking to people in tribes, and looking at what herbs/leaves/roots they use to treat their sick. Western scientists then look at the chemical structure of what is in the root, and mass produce the drugs. In some ways, they are just as advanced as us, except they do not manufacture drugs, they wait for nature to grow it.

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: CatwomanofV on 07/20/03 at 12:29 a.m.


Quoting:

I think tribe is a better word than primitive.

End Quote




When I took African History in college, my professor HATED the word "tribe." She thought that "Clan" or some other word was better. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the word.


I think we should leave them alone. They have lived for centuries without the help of the "civilized" (and I used that term very loosely) world. Sure, our medicine could help them but knowing the "civilized" world as I do, they don't do anything for nothing. I think it will cost them far more then they intend to pay. They are probably not exposed to diseases that we live with everyday-chicken pox, polio, measles, etc. (though, I could be wrong about this) and they are also seem to be away from diseases like AIDS and SARS. How do we know, just by contacting them, that we don't expose them to something they are not amune to. Look what happened when the conquestidors landed in South American. Most of the natives were wiped out by small pox.

I think these people get along just fine without computers, cars, the Simpsons, guns, and coke bottles. (Yes, I have seen "The Gods Must Be Crazy" Part I and II)



Cat

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Hoeveel on 07/20/03 at 12:32 a.m.


Quoting:



When I took African History in college, my professor HATED the word "tribe." She thought that "Clan" or some other word was better. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the word.

End Quote



The P.C. term for Native American tribes is 'nations', right?

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: CatwomanofV on 07/20/03 at 01:04 p.m.


Quoting:


The P.C. term for Native American tribes is 'nations', right?
End Quote



That sounds about right.


Cat

Subject: Re: Obligations to

Written By: Billy_Florio on 07/20/03 at 02:55 p.m.


Quoting:

Not nickpicking here but it's "The Gods Must Be Crazy", and yeah, I've seen it a bunch of times and loved it!!
AFA the excellent question DC asked, I'm like him in that I really don't know "the answer". I lean toward leaving them be. The eloquent way John Seminal explains it comes close to expressing my sentiments. When it's all said and done "tribal people have it as well as anyone". If it a'int broke, don't fix it.
End Quote



Oops  :P  my mistake...thanks for correcting me..lol

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Don_Carlos on 07/20/03 at 04:04 p.m.

Seems ther consensus is "leave them alone unless they ask for help.  That sounds good to me, but what if they are sitting on a hugh oil field, or lots of gold?  And another question.  Do we "technological people" (home techologicous) have the right to religate these people to the status of an anthrologpolical meuseum?  Again, I just ask.  My own beliefs are very ambivolent.  ???

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Hairspray on 07/20/03 at 06:16 p.m.


Quoting:
Do we "technological people" (home techologicous) have the right to religate these people to the status of an anthrologpolical meuseum? End Quote



Relegate? Opinion-wise, yes we do. ;D ;)

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Hairspray on 07/20/03 at 06:21 p.m.

I agree with the leave 'em alone thing, by the way. :)

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Don_Carlos on 07/20/03 at 08:09 p.m.


Quoting:
I agree with the leave 'em alone thing, by the way. :)
End Quote



I tend in that direction too, but I also wonder, am I not "my brother's Keeper"?  Are these not my brothers?  

I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here, but their infant mortality rate is much higher than our, and our medicine/technology could reduce it.  But then, their population would increase, and their food supply wouldn't - unless we intervened more.  Don't know.  Your thoughts here are as good as mine.  Like to hear what 80'srocked thinks about this, just to get an other perspective.

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: John_Harvey on 07/20/03 at 08:34 p.m.

Quoting:
if we dont help them then we are not helping the less fortunate and we will get complaints from socialists for not sharing the wealth

If we do help them then we are infringing on their way of life, and their values, and their systems of society.  and we will get yelled at by Hippies for not letting people live the way they want....
End Quote


Hippies disagree with socialists?

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: Billy_Florio on 07/21/03 at 00:18 a.m.


Quoting:

Hippies disagree with socialists?
End Quote



it depends on the kind of socialist..there are different kinds of socialism, and not all of it is aligned with the Counter culture of the Hippies

Subject: Re: Obligations to "primative" societies

Written By: cs on 07/21/03 at 08:55 a.m.

I don't think anyone has an obligation to modernize these people.  I say let them be.  If they are sitting on oil or gold, let them be.
Everyone has brought up valid points.  Nice to see a thread like this - it's been a while.  :)