Quoting:
The question I have is how well do they work with sand in the engine and other parts of the planes?
End Quote

Obviously they aren't going to be in working condition, now that they have been under sand.

That doesn't change the fact that Saddam felt the need to bury and hide them in the first place.

If fighter jets can be buried and missed by the "inspectors" that were there earlier this year and in years past, who knows what else is out there.

Quoting:
Who are NewsMax?
End Quote

an online Conservative-leaning news site...and interestingly enough, the only site that bothered to carry this story of the incovered jets.

Quoting:
Those jets do not look like they can fly. They look very old.
End Quote

Theres no question they aren't in flying condition right now.

Some are old, and some are being reported as re-con jets more recently used within the last few years.

Thats not the issue.

The issue is that if the UN "inspectors" can literally walk over a bunch of fighter jets buried and hidden in the sand, what else is out there?

Quoting:
Fighter jets aren't weapons of mass destruction.
End Quote

obviously.

But, as was said earlier, if Saddam felt the need to bury and hide his air force jets, what else is hidden in the sand?  After all, Irag is basically a big desert with tons of space and sand to hide and bury things, such as fighter jets in this case.  And more importantly, the UN "inspectors" didn't even know they were there, and may have literally walked right on top of them.

Quoting:



If fighter jets can be buried and missed by the "inspectors" that were there earlier this year and in years past, who knows what else is out there.



End Quote

Assuming that these sources are accurate, the answer to you question is that the inspectors weren't looking for hidden jet planes, they were looking for WMDs.  Not the same thing, as I suspect you already know.

And beyond that, if our intelligence, that was so certain Saddam HAD these WMDs, how come they didn't know whjere they were?  I know my neighbor has a car because I can see it parked in the driveway.  I have no idea if you have one though.  If I was a "car inspector" though, I'd make sure I had found your's before I made a pronouncment.  And I'd have a pritty good idea where to look.

Quoting:Could these weapons have been unearthed and ready to launch in 45 minutes like we were told? I highly doubt it.
End Quote

as for launching a buried warhead in 45 minutes, probably not.

But if weapons are found buried somewhere in Iraq (which after this discovery seems very possible) will the argument that they couldn't have been fired in 45 minutes overshadow the fact that they were there, as we were told?

Quoting:
Assuming that these sources are accurate, the answer to you question is that the inspectors weren't looking for hidden jet planes, they were looking for WMDs.  Not the same thing, as I suspect you already know.
End Quote

arrghh.

You guys are missing the whole point!  (or possibly ignoring the whole point slectively) ::)

If an "inspector" can literally stroll over a bunch of buried jets without even knowing they are there, who's to say they didn't stroll over, oh lets say, WMD's?

Thats the point and relivence to this story, as I suspect you already know.

Nobody is claiming this discovery as a "smoking gun", and nor should they.  But its not something that can be ignored, in my opinion.

Quoting:
I agree that the recovery of these planes might mean that there are WMD buried out there too.

But considering that they would be buried out in the middle of the desert, and under the constant surveilance of the world, was Iraq as big a threat as we were told? Could these weapons have been unearthed and ready to launch in 45 minutes like we were told? I highly doubt it.




End Quote

Excellant point.  And let me re-emphasise what I said above;  if you KNOW something is "there", that implies that you know where is it.  With all our sophisticated spy "stuff" and CIA spooks, and all the assurances we were given (which I never believed) we should have been able to drive up to the sites and rubbed the inspectors' noses in all those WMD's.  We haven't because we can't.  Gotta make you wonder...

Quoting:
But if weapons are found buried somewhere in Iraq (which after this discovery seems very possible) will the argument that they couldn't have been fired in 45 minutes overshadow the fact that they were there, as we were told?End Quote

I still don't think that the WMD just being there would overshadow the fact that they couldn't be used within 45 minutes. The only justification that the US and Britain had for invading was that Iraq was an imminent threat to the world.

And right now I think it's safe to say that Iraq was hardly a threat to anyone in the region, let alone a country thousands of miles away.

But I will agree with you that with this discovery, maybe they might come across these WMD. Time will tell.

Quoting:

The only justification that the US and Britain had for invading was that Iraq was an imminent threat to the world.

And right now I think it's safe to say that Iraq was hardly a threat to anyone in the region, let alone a country thousands of miles away.

End Quote

Absolutely correct!

Quoting:
On a side note:  isn't it interesting how the major media just kinda blurbed over this?  That is, if they bothered mentioning it at all.  Call me crazy, but I consider finding 2-dozen fighter jets buried in the desert news-worthy.
End Quote

You are deffinantly right that it is very news-worthy and something like this WOULD be plastered all over the place. I have been watching all day-Reuters, AP, CNN, NY Times, and I have not seen it anywhere. So, I tend to believe that either these very highly qualified (whether you trust what they say or not) do not have a clue about this very news-worthy story or that Charles R. Smith and/or MSGT T. Collins are full of it. So until I hear otherwise, I am going to think that latter.


Cat

Quoting:
You are deffinantly right that it is very news-worthy and something like this WOULD be plastered all over the place. I have been watching all day-Reuters, AP, CNN, NY Times, and I have not seen it anywhere. So, I tend to believe that either these very highly qualified (whether you trust what they say or not) do not have a clue about this very news-worthy story or that Charles R. Smith and/or MSGT T. Collins are full of it. So until I hear otherwise, I am going to think that latter.


Cat
End Quote

well, I too have occasionally watched CNN and FOX News today seeing if they would mention it.  FOX News covered it both on TV and online, the AP and Reuters both have several wirters covering it online in several places, but CNN is a no-show.(surprise surprise)  They apparently feel that the Kobe Bryant case is more important. ::)  



However, if you don't trust the NewsMax's article I posted and wanted to read about it fom another source, all you really had to do was "Google" it.  I found several results in just one search.

Here's a few, for starters:



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13247135_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-JETS-FOUND-BURIED-AT-IRAQ-AIRFIELD-name_page.html


(Reuters and AP)http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/01/1059480557364.html

(AP)
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/0803/01iraqjets.html

(AP)
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_805155.html?menu=news.iraqaftermath

(AP)
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6846672%255E1702,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93483,00.html


(AP)
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/6433232.htm


If you want more sources, I will be glad to provide them.  They're out there if you want to find them.

Quoting:
Yes, I did find an article from the AP but not from Reuters.End Quote

This one is from both AP and Reuters.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/01/1059480557364.html

Quoting:If they DID find these war planes, why wouldn't all the major media cover it? I just find this VERY strange. End Quote

According to the dates on the articles, this happened possibly last Friday.  And I heard about it on our local talk show just yesterday while they were talking about it, shortly before I posted it here.  According to a few callers, they said ABC News, NBC News, and Good Morning America covered it quickly on Monday night and Tuesday morning and I saw it on the ticker on FOX News yesterday even, but CBS News never mentioned it, nor did CNN.  

Quoting:

As to the question as to why a lot of the American media is ignoring this story, I think its obvious.  And I'm not at all surprised, unfortunately.

End Quote

Yeah,I think it is obvious too.  Because it is not very important.  Soviet era MIGs don't constitute WMDs.  In fact, they don't consitute any kind of formidable air combat threat, at least not against our planes.  So I'm not surprised that this isn't "big news", but as you demonstrated with your posts, it was covered.  Your "unfortunately" indicated that you are raising "left wing media bias" which is such a joke.  If Howard Dean is "left" according to the media, than I wonder what those journalists were reading in college.  There certainly IS media bias, but it is tilted to the right of the political spectrum, and those on the left have ABSOLUTELY no media presence.  The continuum of our political discourse is very much skewed to the right.

Quoting:Yeah,I think it is obvious too.  Because it is not very important.  Soviet era MIGs don't constitute WMDs.  In fact, they don't consitute any kind of formidable air combat threat, at least not against our planes.  End Quote

Don, the significance of this story has been covered in this thread multiple times.  If you haven't got it by now, don't bother.  

Iraq is a big sand box.  If jets can be buried without anyone knowing, even the "prestigious" "Inspectors", God knows what else is buried.  

Thats the point.  Not rocket science.

Quoting:
i watched CBS evening news all this week and last, and I could have pointed out at least 13 times when the anchorperson (not always Dan Rather) said something that was left bias, or an article took a left wing viewpoint exclusivly, or a reporter said something like, "hopefully this will mean the end of Bush's presidency".......now, Im no expert on the media, but this kinda makes me wonder where these "Right wing bias" remarks are coming from.    
End Quote

Well, without characterizing YOUR politics, I would propose that hoping for the demise of our current neo-fascist administration hardly qualifies one as being "left wing".  As a matter of fact, I think that the corporate establishment is becoming very fearful of Junior and his neofasc cabal.  And you have got to know that the main stream media you refer to are not leftists.  They represent the corporate elite.  No, the "right wing bias" I am refering to is, for example, the fact that everything we hear about Cuba is a gross distortion of reality, that those who demonstrate against the WTO are marginalized, their critique ignored.  And on and on and on.  I would suggest to you that if the main stream media is looking to get rid of junior, you, my friend, and the neofasc's you seem to support, are in BIG TROUBLE.  ;D  ;D  ;D

Quoting: But hidden planes are not the same as hidden WMDs.  End Quote

...and nobody said they were.  Nobody is claiming this is a "smoking gun" by any means.

Quoting:The inspectors didn't miss them as they were not the target of the search...The fact that WMDs can be hidden in the desert was never an issue.
End Quote

true they weren't there to look for jets, but the fact they can just walk over them without knowing it broadens the possibility that weapons may be buried elsewhere.

Quoting:


...and nobody said they were.  Nobody is claiming this is a "smoking gun" by any means.





true they weren't there to look for jets, but the fact they can just walk over them without knowing it broadens the possibility that weapons may be buried elsewhere.
End Quote

Sure, anything is possible.  GOOD LORD, there are COMMUNISTS sleeping under (on) my bed!  Call the FBI!  Call the CIA!  Call the President!  How about calling the Americxan people and, for a change cut the lie and level with us?  

Gotta say, you Bush supporters are really going off the deep end.  Why can't yo admit that your guy has problems with the truth?

Quoting:
 Why can't yo admit that your guy has problems with the truth?
End Quote

YOU WANT THE TRUTH?!?!  YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!


sorry, couldn't resist ;D

Quoting:


Sure, anything is possible.  End Quote

Yes, yes it is ;)  That's what 80sRocked was saying, and yet you're still arguing...

Quoting:

Gotta say, you Bush supporters are really going off the deep end.  Why can't yo admit that your guy has problems with the truth?
End Quote

He doesn't.  You just hate him, so you're taking any shot you can at him.

Quoting:


YOU WANT THE TRUTH?!?!  YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!


sorry, couldn't resist ;D
End Quote

Say what?  Truth is that Junior and his neofasc buddies have been lying to us, and I think it was Wolfowitz who admitted it.  I can handle that truth, but it seems that the bush league among us has problems with that concept.

Quoting:


You just hate him, so you're taking any shot you can at him.
End Quote

Hate him?  No I reserve that emotion for my persoanal life.  Think he his a felon, an idiot, a fascist pig, a destroyer of the environment, an insider trader, a Maciavellian, a disaster as president - yes, that and more.  And every "shot" I take at him has been documented and verified.  You neofasc'st just don't want to acknowledge that your little darling is an absolute fraud.  I could easilly tolerate a decent Republican president, but this guy is just off the wall.  He is dangerous to democracy, which I hope you still believe in.

Quoting:


Say what?  Truth is that Junior and his neofasc buddies have been lying to us, and I think it was Wolfowitz who admitted it.  I can handle that truth, but it seems that the bush league among us has problems with that concept.
End Quote

I was trying to be funny by quoting Jack Nicholas from "A Few Good Men".  Obviously, you didn't get it. ::)

And, as far as a politician lying?  Call the National Enquirer...I'm sure they would pay big money for this story ::)

Quoting:

I was trying to be funny by quoting Jack Nicholas from "A Few Good Men".  Obviously, you didn't get it. ::)

End Quote

*cough cough* Nicholson ;D

Quoting:

I was trying to be funny by quoting Jack Nicholas from "A Few Good Men".  Obviously, you didn't get it. ::)

End Quote

there was golfing in that movie?  ;) ;D

Quoting:
And, as far as a politician lying?  Call the National Enquirer...I'm sure they would pay big money for this story ::)

End Quote

wait a minute..are you trying to tell me politicians lie?  OMG, I cant beleive that these respectable people that we elected would do such a thing....

<Picks up newspaper>


Oh my God!  Britneys not a virgin!

;D

Quoting:

I was trying to be funny by quoting Jack Nicholas from "A Few Good Men".  Obviously, you didn't get it. ::)

And, as far as a politician lying?  Call the National Enquirer...I'm sure they would pay big money for this story ::)
End Quote

Sorry Cheerleader, I DID miss the reference, and A Few Good Men is one of my fav's.  Nicholson (I knew who you meant) did a fantastic job.  Sometimes I guess I'm just thick - sorry  ;)

You cynic you ;D  Of course politicians stretch the truth, make promises they can't keep, and even exagurate (sp) their record.  And a number of recent Presidents have outright lied to both we, the people, and to Congress.  That doesn't make it either right, or a good basis on which to make national policy.

Quoting:
Sorry, Rice and Billy, I was on the phone to hubby listening to him gush over his new golf clubs and...the rest is history ;D
End Quote

Cheer, you confuse me sometimes as to what side of the specturm youre actually on... ???  :)

Quoting:


Cheer, you confuse me sometimes as to what side of the specturm youre actually on... ???  :)
End Quote

She votes her conscience, not party lines.  Can't ask for a better American ;)

Quoting:


She votes her conscience, not party lines.  Can't ask for a better American ;)
End Quote

Yeah thats true, demonstrating freedom of choice...

Quoting:


Cheer, you confuse me sometimes as to what side of the specturm youre actually on... ???  :)
End Quote

As far as politics go, Rice is pretty much right...I don't consider myself dem or rep.  I listen to the candidates, and choose the candidates that I identify with most, regardless of party.  That's why I usually don't vote in the primary elections.  I have to choose either ALL republican candidates or ALL democratic candidates and I wanted to vote for a little of each.   ;D ;) 8) :P

Quoting:


As far as politics go, Rice is pretty much right...I don't consider myself dem or rep.  I listen to the candidates, and choose the candidates that I identify with most, regardless of party.  That's why I usually don't vote in the primary elections.  I have to choose either ALL republican candidates or ALL democratic candidates and I wanted to vote for a little of each.   ;D ;) 8) :P
End Quote

And, my friend (I hope I can call you that without offense) I respect your independence.  Unfortunately, too many people just follow the party line, some on this board.  I can assure you, and everyone else, that I had much to critisize about Bubba.  I just wasn't here at the time.  I'm sure I will get off on whoever wins the next election, unless Howard hires me in some capacity, which is a possibility. ;D ;) (you don't bite the hand that feeds you).

So hang on to that independence, nurture it by probing deeper, and deeper still.  And excersise that independence of mind aas your lights lead you.  You seem to have very good values.  Let them guide you, and you can't go any further wrong than the rest of us independants.  

In short, you're cool!

Quoting:


And, my friend (I hope I can call you that without offense) I respect your independence.  Unfortunately, too many people just follow the party line, some on this board.  I can assure you, and everyone else, that I had much to critisize about Bubba.  I just wasn't here at the time.  I'm sure I will get off on whoever wins the next election, unless Howard hires me in some capacity, which is a possibility. ;D ;) (you don't bite the hand that feeds you).

So hang on to that independence, nurture it by probing deeper, and deeper still.  And excersise that independence of mind aas your lights lead you.  You seem to have very good values.  Let them guide you, and you can't go any further wrong than the rest of us independants.  

In short, you're cool!
End Quote

Hey, I try 8)  

I grew up in a household where my mom is dem & my dad is rep.  It was instilled in me at an early age to follow my heart/mind, especially when it comes to politics.  Until someone comes up with a party that has the EXACT ideals/beliefs that I do, I will continue to consider myself an individual.