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I am also looking forward to the coming of Christ and the Millennial reign.
As you can see from the posts above, what other hope is there? ;D
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I see this as one of the problems with religion.
I don't believe this will happen, so if I want a better society I have to work for it myself.  Given that no mere mortal could ever hope to create a society like the Millennial reign, why bother?

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I see this as one of the problems with religion.
I don't believe this will happen, so if I want a better society I have to work for it myself. End Quote

To be honest, Tao, before Jesus came into my life I couldn't give a rat's patootie about a better society, unless it directly effected me. I was very selfish,  "looking out for number one"  as they said in the 70's. Jesus opened my eyes to a better way. Today, I know I can do nothing without Him.

 

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Given that no mere mortal could ever hope to create a society like the Millennial reign, why bother?
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Because Christ is no mere mortal... ;)

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Add "Brave New World" to the list...
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yeah, almost forgot about that one...

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you cant have a perfect world...it is impossible....further, I would never want to live in a pefect world.....or, at least a perfect world as you see it (which is the normal thing that comes to peoples minds)...
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Nice to dream though, int it?

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I forgive you Carlos  ;D ;D
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Thanks GF.  Let me add another thought.  It sems to me that just about everyone - with few exceptions - wants a better world, and that applies especially to both religious people and to we leftist/liberal/reformist/... types.  The Liberation Theology movement within the Catholic Church rejected both "godless (that is Soviet) communism" and capitalism because neither, in their view, could realize what they considered to be the heart of Christ's message - the meek shall inherit the EARTH (not pie in the sky).  Herbert Apthecker (a Marxist historian) called for a Marxist-Christian diologue, and Fidel once said that when true Christians recognize that there is much more of the Christian vision in Marx than in capitalism, an unstopable force would be created.

The point of all this is to say that I, for one, don't care whether your motivation derives from religion or from any other source.  As long as your goals are social justice, brotherly love, peace, and prosperity for all, I'm on your side.  And, call my a cockeyed optimist if you like, I think we can, as a human family, move together toward these goals.

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Thanks GF.  Let me add another thought.  It sems to me that just about everyone - with few exceptions - wants a better world, and that applies especially to both religious people and to we leftist/liberal/reformist/... types.  The Liberation Theology movement within the Catholic Church rejected both "godless (that is Soviet) communism" and capitalism because neither, in their view, could realize what they considered to be the heart of Christ's message - the meek shall inherit the EARTH (not pie in the sky).  Herbert Apthecker (a Marxist historian) called for a Marxist-Christian diologue, and Fidel once said that when true Christians recognize that there is much more of the Christian vision in Marx than in capitalism, an unstopable force would be created.

The point of all this is to say that I, for one, don't care whether your motivation derives from religion or from any other source.  As long as your goals are social justice, brotherly love, peace, and prosperity for all, I'm on your side.  And, call my a cockeyed optimist if you like, I think we can, as a human family, move together toward these goals.
End Quote

I'll have to do some reading up on Marx. It does seem that the early apostles practiced a form of communism in that those who were unable to work were provided for by those who could work. I do believe that the earth will not be destroyed, but renewed, and that is what the "meek" will inherit, a literally renewed planet earth.

Also, the Bible does not teach that we are to lay around doing nothing waiting for Christ's return. We are to do what we can to work toward "social justice, brotherly love, peace, and prosperity for all" among other things, as you mentioned Carlos.

Alas, I think you are a little more optimistic about our "human family" than I am, though.

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What we call "society" is actually an abstraction.  It doesn't really exist.  What does exist are individuals, each wired to behave in what he perceives to be his own self-interest.  It's a good thing.  But something that doesn't exist can't be perfect; the best we can hope for is for those individuals to enjoy as much freedom and responsibility as their nosy-ass neighbors will allow them to pursue their individual happiness.
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Sorry, but I beg to differ.  "Society" is not an abstraction, but a culturally defined reality.  In our John Lockian, Jeffersonian, Madisonian tradition you are more right than wrong.  But you make a big mistake in projecting that set of ideas onto other parts of the world where they have no power and no influence.  In short, and I mean no offence by saying this, your post is based on a Eurocentric view of the world, one NOT accepted by many peoples who inhabit it.  In fact, most people view the world from a "corporatist/tribal perspective.  Very different from our "western individualaism".  I advance no judgement between the 2, just point out the vast difference between them.

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I'll have to do some reading up on Marx. It does seem that the early apostles practiced a form of communism in that those who were unable to work were provided for by those who could work. I do believe that the earth will not be destroyed, but renewed, and that is what the "meek" will inherit, a literally renewed planet earth.

Also, the Bible does not teach that we are to lay around doing nothing waiting for Christ's return. We are to do what we can to work toward "social justice, brotherly love, peace, and prosperity for all" among other things, as you mentioned Carlos.

Alas, I think you are a little more optimistic about our "human family" than I am, though.
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Hay GF,

I can in no way claim to be a biblical scholar, but from my limited understanding of the teachings, I would have to agree with what you said.

Might I suggest to you that, although I might be "more optimistic" than you, in any case, my ethical/moral/political commitment and your religious commitment lead us both to the same place - to struggle for "social justice, brotheryly love, peace and prosperity for all".  To my mind, that makes us allies in a noble (religious) struggle.

As to being more optimistic, let me gently (very gently) chide you.  If the project we both have outlined is truely God's design, how can you be pessimistic as to it's ultimate success?  In other words, as Adam Clyton Powell use to say, "Keep the faith baby". ;D

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Sorry, but I beg to differ.  "Society" is not an abstraction, but a culturally defined reality.  In our John Lockian, Jeffersonian, Madisonian tradition you are more right than wrong.  But you make a big mistake in projecting that set of ideas onto other parts of the world where they have no power and no influence.  In short, and I mean no offence by saying this, your post is based on a Eurocentric view of the world, one NOT accepted by many peoples who inhabit it.  In fact, most people view the world from a "corporatist/tribal perspective.  Very different from our "western individualaism".  I advance no judgement between the 2, just point out the vast difference between them.
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Sorry, but I also beg to differ.  I don't see how anyone--whatever culture they belong to--can fail to accept the reality that we exist as individuals.  It's not "Eurocentric"; it's common sense.  I'm a person, living my life.  You're a person, living yours.  USA Today may see me as an "employed white male" or "former smoker" or whatever group they choose to include me in on a given day--that doesn't give that group any substance.  They're just numbers in the paper that represent real individuals.  That principle doesn't change with geography, or because you say it does.  People are people.  A is A.

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Ahhh, Carlos...

The only thing I am pessimistic about is that man will bring about perfection in the world. How can we, as imperfect beings, bring about that which is perfect?

My hope lies in the Lord. Peace will never fully exist world-wide without His return to set things right. I've got faith, baby!! ;D ;D  But my faith lies in the Lord, not men...
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I'm not sure how to take this and wonder what it implies for how you live your life.  If you believe God has a purpose for you than you have to act on it, right?  If you believe God wants you to pursue his work, than whether you, as a person can achieve that goal or not is irrelevant, you have to pursue it regardless, no?

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Sorry, but I also beg to differ.  I don't see how anyone--whatever culture they belong to--can fail to accept the reality that we exist as individuals.  It's not "Eurocentric"; it's common sense.  I'm a person, living my life.  You're a person, living yours.  USA Today may see me as an "employed white male" or "former smoker" or whatever group they choose to include me in on a given day--that doesn't give that group any substance.  They're just numbers in the paper that represent real individuals.  That principle doesn't change with geography, or because you say it does.  People are people.  A is A.
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Try living your life for a day as a pure individual, untouched by anything for which another peron is responsible.  No car, no electricity, no water, no cloths etc.

We are social beings.  We produce our lives socially, and not just our lives, our ideologies as well.  "It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that detrermines their consciousness."  You and I, and evveryone else are products of the societies in which we were raised.  

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Try living your life for a day as a pure individual, untouched by anything for which another peron is responsible.  No car, no electricity, no water, no cloths etc.

We are social beings.  We produce our lives socially, and not just our lives, our ideologies as well.  "It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that detrermines their consciousness."  You and I, and evveryone else are products of the societies in which we were raised.  
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Not a single luxury?  Kidding; of course my fellow individuals conspire to make many products and services available for my consumption; they do this not because they are my societal brothers but because they wants my cash.  We associate with others all the time;  we influence and are influenced by others all the time--hopefully these associations are voluntary as much as possible.  It works extremely well if we keep government interference to a minimum.  

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I'm not sure how to take this and wonder what it implies for how you live your life.  If you believe God has a purpose for you than you have to act on it, right?  If you believe God wants you to pursue his work, than whether you, as a person can achieve that goal or not is irrelevant, you have to pursue it regardless, no?
End Quote

Right, and yes, Carlos.

God has a purpose for every life. As a Christian, I focus on living my life to bring glory to Him. This means loving (helping) others, giving of my time and resources to do so. It also means living peaceably with others, as much as is possible. And probably most important, preaching the Gospel, using words if necessary. ;)

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Right, and yes, Carlos.

God has a purpose for every life. As a Christian, I focus on living my life to bring glory to Him. This means loving (helping) others, giving of my time and resources to do so. It also means living peaceably with others, as much as is possible. And probably most important, preaching the Gospel, using words if necessary. ;)
End Quote

So you are working to make a better world.  Therefore, even though our motivations differ, we share the same goals, and that was the point. ;D

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The perfect society? I'll settle for seeing George Bush booted out of office. That's a step in the right direction.

;D
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I agree 100%


Cat

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The perfect society? I'll settle for seeing George Bush booted out of office. That's a step in the right direction.

;D
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Make that 3!

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Me either, living in a perfect world would be boring and pointless, but then if it was boring and pointless would it be perfect?  It wouldn't happen anyway, look how unperfect we are.End Quote

That's the problem I face. I long for a better world but it appears to me that a better world wouldn't be better (?)

I think a perfect world is a subjective notion. We all have our own ideas of what makes a better world in relation to our preferences and tastes. My perfect world would be to have my nan and grandad back again (God bless them). I'm not sure if it would be a relevance let alone an idea of somebody else's perfect world (and rightfully so).