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Subject: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Indy Gent on 02/13/04 at 02:11 p.m.

There have been examples in history of people getting shot by police simply by lunging, or leaning forward, towards the cops. Recently a wrongful death lawsuit was filed by the family of a Ball State student who was killed by a campus policeman when he lunged towards the officer. An investigation by the University found no signs of wrongdoing by the shooting officer. The allegedly drunk student mistook a residential home as a friend's house, and the police were called. The Family's attorney, Greg Fieger, is known for defending Jack "Dr. Death" Kevorkian for his murder trial. Is Ball State responsible? Was the student mistaken for a burglar? Was the officer just doing his job? This trial could set a precedent in excessive force cases.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: GWBush2004 on 02/13/04 at 02:40 p.m.

If you move in a way thats threatning to a police officer they should have the right to shoot.  Police don't shoot enough and often end up getting shot by not having thier pistols out and ready.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: LyricBoy on 02/13/04 at 03:04 p.m.

Indy,

Let me frame it a different way.  You are walking down a dark steet and somebody lunges at you.  Do you just stand there and take it, or whip out your gun and shoot him?

Note... in the split second that he lunges at you, you do not know if the assailant has a gun, a knife, or other weapon.

My decision... whip out my rod and shoot him (if I'm packing heat at the time).

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 02/13/04 at 04:04 p.m.

There have also been cases of police being killed because they DIDN'T shoot someone who came at them.  I don't think the University was responsible as the officer was doing his job.  Sure, in this case, the kid didn't have a gun, but what if he did?  Then we might be talking about the officer being killed, not the student.  You can probably bet, also, that if the roles were reversed, the cop's family wouldn't be suing the shooter's.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: GWBush2004 on 02/13/04 at 04:36 p.m.

Well 3 for yes and 0 for no.....

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Bobby on 02/13/04 at 04:55 p.m.

If I was a policeman and someone was about to go for me I would have to do the best I can to protect myself.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 02/13/04 at 05:04 p.m.


Quoting:
Well 3 for yes and 0 for no.....
End Quote



OMG!!!  We actually agree on something :o ;D

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: GWBush2004 on 02/13/04 at 05:12 p.m.

Lol, no one can disagree on everything....except maybe Alan Colms and Bill OReilly.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Indy Gent on 02/13/04 at 05:48 p.m.

And I guess when you've been drinking, your sense of judgement is the first thing to go. This student may not have intended to hurt anyone before he drank, but he might fall into that line of thinking after a few cold ones. But I'm not blaming alcohol for this either. The man has a right to drink at a bar. My only qualm is that the officer should have had access to pepper spray or mace (maybe a tazer) as well as a gun. Shooting should always be a last resort, but he should have some form of protection.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Snowcrystal on 02/13/04 at 05:48 p.m.

But why shoot him dead, in that case?
Why not shoot at his leg or feet, that'll bring him down just in case he did have a gun.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Bobby on 02/14/04 at 04:55 a.m.

Quoting:
But why shoot him dead, in that case?
Why not shoot at his leg or feet, that'll bring him down just in case he did have a gun.
End Quote



Absolutely agree. Just make sure you're a good shot or else that person isn't going to be able to have kids.  ;)

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: LyricBoy on 02/14/04 at 05:16 a.m.


Quoting:
But why shoot him dead, in that case?
Why not shoot at his leg or feet, that'll bring him down just in case he did have a gun.

End Quote



In close quarters, policemen (and policewomen) are trained to "aim for the torso" to maximize the probability of hitting the target.  If you aim for the head or feet, the chances of missing are much higher (especially for the feet).

On the other hand, long-distance snipers who are shooting at a stationary target DO attempt to aim for less-lethal parts of the body, unless the perp starts moving (like he is aiming a gun at a hostage).

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Race_Bannon on 02/15/04 at 00:28 a.m.

Quoting:
But why shoot him dead, in that case?
Why not shoot at his leg or feet, that'll bring him down just in case he did have a gun.

End Quote

A good question that is simply answered.  You aim for the most massive part of the body to avoid missing the intended target and unfortuanatley hitting the wrong target.  If a bullet misses it's intended point it will contine to travel until it meets another mass, and it's very unfortuante it it's an innocent bystander.

I have to add, I am a gun owner and regulary visit a gun range, it's not easy to shoot straight and true every time, especially under great stress.  Please believe me when I say you want them to shoot the best target possible if they need to draw their weapons.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 02/15/04 at 11:16 a.m.


Quoting:
And I guess when you've been drinking, your sense of judgement is the first thing to go. This student may not have intended to hurt anyone before he drank, but he might fall into that line of thinking after a few cold ones. But I'm not blaming alcohol for this either. The man has a right to drink at a bar. My only qualm is that the officer should have had access to pepper spray or mace (maybe a tazer) as well as a gun. Shooting should always be a last resort, but he should have some form of protection.
End Quote



Every cop I know has mace/pepper spray.  It's part of their uniform, along with the gun.  However, if someone lunges at you, and you don't know if they have a weapon, pepper spray isn't going to do much as their momentum is already going forward.  Also, if a person is intoxicated enough, or is on certain illicit drugs, the tazers/pepper spray will have no effect.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Indy Gent on 02/16/04 at 12:12 a.m.

I think lunging without a weapon and lunging with a weapon are 2 different things, but I can also feel for cops who are trained to do what they've learned at the academy. But in this case, the student and the cop were the only ones present, and he should tell bystanders to stay from harm's way. And the cop should have called for back-up if the situation got out of hand. I don't know how campus security works though.

Subject: Re: Is

Written By: Secret_Squirrell on 02/16/04 at 06:22 p.m.

I think anyone who lunges at a police officer is just plain stupid.  The officer was probably justified with the amount of info given on this case.

Heck.. I have a personal rule of NOT lunging at anyone bearing a firearm!  ;D

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Mr_80s on 02/17/04 at 10:03 a.m.

Quoting:
But why shoot him dead, in that case?
Why not shoot at his leg or feet, that'll bring him down just in case he did have a gun.
End Quote



Simple, because that only works in the movies.

The arms and legs are a VERY hard target to hit.  They are small, and move around very easily.  The head is also a very hard target to hit.  Military and law enforcement are all trained to shoot for the head.

Add to that the fact that a limb being shot rarely disables somebody, ESPECIALLY if they are under the influence.

This may be of interest.  This is the "legal definition" of Deadly Force, as used by the US Marines.  I first learned it 20 years ago, and it still is my guideline:

"Deadly force is that force which a person uses, which he knows (or should reasonably know) will create a substantial risk of death or serious bodily harm.  It is used only in cases of extreme necessity, as a last resort, or when all other means have failed."

Having guarded Military facilities (including Nuclear stockpiles), I can tell you that I take such responsibility very seriously.  Such a decision normally has to be made in a split second, and is very traumatic.

As for pepper spray or other "non lethal tactics", they are not always effective.  Just watch a few shows of "Cops", and you will see people that were sprayed and kept comming.  Even Rodney King got shocked numerous times with a Taser, and he still tried to get back up on his feet.

Having been on the "good" side, I know how hard the job is.  And if somebody is stupid enough to get drunk in public and break into somebodies house, then we are better off without them in the gene pool.

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: chefjamie on 03/09/04 at 08:03 p.m.

I guess I'm not sure where I stand on this one. While I do feel for the cops and their safety, I can't help but think of a situation that happened here a couple of years ago. A friend of mine became very unstable and things kind of turned into a standoff with the police. He was holding a knife to his throat, begging to talk to one of his friends as the police surrounded him. As per policy, the cops attempted to negotiate with him, and shot at him with the customary bean bag type item. The problem was that he was hit in the back- which naturally propelled his body forward- in turn appearing to lunge at the police where an officer who had been with this particular squad for less that 18 months "jumped the gun" and shot him. He died almost instantly. I didn't hear about  anything until my birthday a couple of days later when one of our mutual friends called to tell me that Mike was dead. I'm not saying that what Mike did in the first place was justified at all, but in retrospect there were a number of things that could have been handled a little differently. Just wanted to give you all a different insight into the topic.

:'(

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: Indy Gent on 03/09/04 at 08:34 p.m.

I am sorry to hear about your friend, chefjamie. I guess I would have a hard time dealing with someone that I knew getting shot by the cops like that. The officer in the Muncie shooting was only a month into his duty.

Quoting:
I guess I'm not sure where I stand on this one. While I do feel for the cops and their safety, I can't help but think of a situation that happened here a couple of years ago. A friend of mine became very unstable and things kind of turned into a standoff with the police. He was holding a knife to his throat, begging to talk to one of his friends as the police surrounded him. As per policy, the cops attempted to negotiate with him, and shot at him with the customary bean bag type item. The problem was that he was hit in the back- which naturally propelled his body forward- in turn appearing to lunge at the police where an officer who had been with this particular squad for less that 18 months "jumped the gun" and shot him. He died almost instantly. I didn't hear about  anything until my birthday a couple of days later when one of our mutual friends called to tell me that Mike was dead. I'm not saying that what Mike did in the first place was justified at all, but in retrospect there were a number of things that could have been handled a little differently. Just wanted to give you all a different insight into the topic.

:'(
End Quote

Subject: Re: Is "Lunging" A Good Excuse To Shoot?

Written By: chefjamie on 03/10/04 at 08:23 p.m.

Thanks Indy, I appreciate that. I guess what made the whole thing really hard to deal with was all the investigations that followed the whole thing- was the shooting justified, etc. There were a number of witnesses who told the story that I have repeated to you  (that the police were responsible and not justifiable) who were dismissed from the investigation. After all was said and done, the police department was found to have acted in a manner that was justified and were cleared of any wrongdoing. A newspapter article that was published six months later (the end of the year highlights and lowlights) criticized the fact that the police were more than 12 feet away from Mike when they shot him, yet they felt that he posed an immediate threat from that distance.
It took us all a while to come to terms with things, and now I totally think differently when I hear about standoff situations like this on the news.