You know how things can be controversial and generally disliked while it's occuring (especially music, technology, the way youth act, or just the state of the world in general), but gets regarded as "innocent" or at least "much better than today" when people look back on it in the following decades?

This is absolutely simple but I was just thinking....a big reason for that probably is because we know the outcome of anything controversial in the past. So since it's no longer considered a threat, we can say "ah it wasn't too bad after all". But when it's actually going on, nobody knows how it'll progress, which I think is why it worries people. Like it's obvious that the world didn't collapse by teenagers listening to Elvis (and just generally starting to have more fun) in the mid '50s, or watching MTV in 1983.

Does anyone agree with this? It just came to me, but it might make sense in relation to everything people have said over the years about this stuff.

Good point, Marty, and Karma +1. 

The sex, violence, and dissolution of any era seems like the end of the world when you're actually in it.  The way Tipper Gore was talking about MTV in 1985 (and I remember) you'd think it was the four horsemen of the apocalypse!  More to the point, people forget.  There was sex, violence, and dissolution in every era.  In the past it was more repressed, but it was there.  A director 50 years ago could not get a film distributed with profanity, nudity/sex, raunchy themes, or realistic violence in it...but there was plenty of all that in the country in 1958!

Things seem particularly nasty today with the Internet porn and the gang violence, but on the other hand, 50 years ago it was unthinkable that a black and a woman would be serious contenders for the presidency.

Agree with you there. ^

Back then things like that where repressed(which is why it didn't seem like there was much porn then... oh, there was... just harder to find).

I remember seeing something about when Elvis performed on TV(I forgot if it was Sullivan or not)... They only showed him from the waste up on camera... Just because they fought his dancing was risque.(Which is nothing compared to today... heck it didn't really look like anything obscene back then)

:D

You know how things can be controversial and generally disliked while it's occuring (especially music, technology, the way youth act, or just the state of the world in general), but gets regarded as "innocent" or at least "much better than today" when people look back on it in the following decades?

This is absolutely simple but I was just thinking....a big reason for that probably is because we know the outcome of anything controversial in the past. So since it's no longer considered a threat, we can say "ah it wasn't too bad after all". But when it's actually going on, nobody knows how it'll progress, which I think is why it worries people. Like it's obvious that the world didn't collapse by teenagers listening to Elvis (and just generally starting to have more fun) in the mid '50s, or watching MTV in 1983.

Does anyone agree with this? It just came to me, but it might make sense in relation to everything people have said over the years about this stuff.



Great point Marty. I have always thought that at least one part of what makes nostalgia so powerful, is the safety of the past, and knowing that things you though were terrible before really turned out to be 'no big deal'. To add to Max's point about the '50s, there was plenty of violence in the '50s and before, and that was also around the time that the Cold War really began, not to mention the fact that the Civil Rights movement began in earnest then, even if it didn't reach its apex until the '60s. Yet, the '50s are often considered to be an extremely 'innocent' time, and I'm sure to many they were, but just ask my grandparents about some of the things they saw here in the south around then, and it really changes your point of view.

I will admit that I fall into the same trap myself. The '90s, especially when I was really young in the late '80s and early '90s, always seem like such a more innocent time than today, but there were many problems then. Also, events later on in the '90s like the Oklahoma City bombing, the Olympic Park bombing not far from here in Atlanta, and the school shootings in the late '90s all effected me as a kid, but now that so many years have gone by, I've almost sort of forgotten how big of a deal they were at the time.

Agree with you there. ^

Back then things like that where repressed(which is why it didn't seem like there was much porn then... oh, there was... just harder to find).

I remember seeing something about when Elvis performed on TV(I forgot if it was Sullivan or not)... They only showed him from the waste up on camera... Just because they fought his dancing was risque.(Which is nothing compared to today... heck it didn't really look like anything obscene back then)

:D


That was Ed Sullivan indeed.  Not the decision of Ed himself, but the network.  

There is much more porn nowadays because its so cheap to make and distribute and girls work so cheap, just throw in the Internet and a liberal interpretation of the 1st Amendment and voila!

Smut mags were expensive and available only in certain corners of certain towns.  I'm talking hardcore stuff, not Playboy and Hustler;  stuff that's now just a mouse click away!

I agree with everyone so far. I'll have to go into more detail later, but I agree it's really a tradeoff as far as the '50s and the first half of the '60s compared to anytime after, say the Vietnam War and the Summer of Love...which, for the next generation would correspond to, say 1982 to pre-September 11th 2001.

Both are the "more innocent" times for their era in relation to what came later, but especially with the Fifties, on the one hand, I believe people (especially who were kids then) consider it to be innocent because of being more shielded from the negative aspects. It's true you didn't really hear about people smoking drugs and there wasn't "wild and crazy" music like Jimi Hendrix and it had a more family-oriented, quiet feeling. Yet on the other hand, in some ways it was far worse beneath the surface, with things like public racism and sexism still being tolerated.

That was Ed Sullivan indeed.  Not the decision of Ed himself, but the network.  

There is much more porn nowadays because its so cheap to make and distribute and girls work so cheap, just throw in the Internet and a liberal interpretation of the 1st Amendment and voila!

Smut mags were expensive and available only in certain corners of certain towns.  I'm talking hardcore stuff, not Playboy and Hustler;  stuff that's now just a mouse click away!


Stuff not unlike 2 Girls 1 Cup. :P :D

Heck, some of the ones who thought that Elvis's gyrating pelvis was bad just need to see that one and they'll change their mind. :D

Stuff not unlike 2 Girls 1 Cup. :P :D

Heck, some of the ones who thought that Elvis's gyrating pelvis was bad just need to see that one and they'll change their mind. :D

Elvis the Pelivs had a little brother named Enos who was popular at dances.
:P

This is very true.  Throughout history, one can see a cycle.  The older people bemoan the state of affairs in the world and complain about the youth.  Then the youth grow up and start bemoaning the state of affairs in their world and complaining about the new generation of youth.  

I think that knowing the outcome, as you said, is a key part of why we view the past as innocent.  I'll use the 60s and 70s as examples of this.  At the time in the 60s, it seemed like America was coming apart to many people.  The questioning of age-old values, the sexual revolution, the unwinnable war of Vietnam, and a newly rebellious and socially concious youth coming of age were all things that people bemoaned in the 60s.  However, now, many of these elements (the rebellious youth, sexual revolution, questioning age-old values) are seen in a more positive light and even seem to be romanticized by some people (including myself, I must admit, although I dislike how the politically involved anti-war boomers seemed to sell out in the 80s and become yuppies).

The 1970s were a dark time that seemed impossible to romanticize and make the 00s situation look like a picnic.  An exploding divorce rate, violent crime rates higher than they were in the 90s or 00s, a seemingly decade long recession complete with gas shortages (even rationing), Watergate, and the continuation and eventual loss of Vietnam.  It was just total disillusionment.  I even saw a book from 1980 about the 70s that called it "the decade America lost faith in everything."  It's no coincidence that nostalgia first started to become mainstream in the 70s (look at all the 50s nostalgia - Happy Days, Grease, etc.).  However, most people I know who grew up in the 70s neglect to remember these facts.  For them, its all about disco, Star Wars, Happy Days, and stuff like that.

We sort of gloss over the bad when remembering things.  I think that, as you said, knowing the outcome is partially a result of this, although I think people in general tend to gloss over the bad things, especially if they're remembering something from their youth.  Look at how many people romanticize high school as being "the best years of your life" when I knew plenty of people who hated high school when they were actually in it.  They just forgot the bad, or at least tend to put it in the back of minds rather than having it front and center, in favor of the good.

Yes...collective hindsight is a wonderful thing.......

The 1970's were not "innocent" as far as porno and local newspapers were concerned.

Back in '72 through '77, you could pick up any local newspaper and see full-page ads for the latest porno movie, such as "Flesh Gordon", "Deep Throat", "Tell Them Johnny Wadd is Here", or the classic "Behind the Green Door", featuring the Ivory Snow Girl.

Porn stars like Linda Lovelace, Harry Reems, John C Holmes, and Tony "The Hook" Perez were common household names back then.

Can you imagine picking up a newpaper with that kind of stuff advertised today?

The 1970's were not "innocent" as far as porno and local newspapers were concerned.

Back in '72 through '77, you could pick up any local newspaper and see full-page ads for the latest porno movie, such as "Flesh Gordon", "Deep Throat", "Tell Them Johnny Wadd is Here", or the classic "Behind the Green Door", featuring the Ivory Snow Girl.

Porn stars like Linda Lovelace, Harry Reems, John C Holmes, and Tony "The Hook" Perez were common household names back then.

Can you imagine picking up a newpaper with that kind of stuff advertised today?


Yes..but to see them you had to catch three trains and a bus (from memory) and then show ID to prove you were over 21 (and then 18 later). Now you can see all of that (and a lot more) without ever leaving the home.....

The 1970's were not "innocent" as far as porno and local newspapers were concerned.

Back in '72 through '77, you could pick up any local newspaper and see full-page ads for the latest porno movie, such as "Flesh Gordon", "Deep Throat", "Tell Them Johnny Wadd is Here", or the classic "Behind the Green Door", featuring the Ivory Snow Girl.

Porn stars like Linda Lovelace, Harry Reems, John C Holmes, and Tony "The Hook" Perez were common household names back then.

Can you imagine picking up a newpaper with that kind of stuff advertised today?


What?  Where do you get this?  ??? No, you could not pick up any local paper and see full page ads for porno, and Lovelace, Reems, and Perez were not in any way common household names. There were specific newspapers(one or two), usually in large cities with large a huge student population that would have these papers. 99% of the population probably never set eyes on them, and anyone who did had to make an effort to get them.

This is very true.  Throughout history, one can see a cycle.  The older people bemoan the state of affairs in the world and complain about the youth.  Then the youth grow up and start bemoaning the state of affairs in their world and complaining about the new generation of youth. 

I think that knowing the outcome, as you said, is a key part of why we view the past as innocent.  I'll use the 60s and 70s as examples of this.  At the time in the 60s, it seemed like America was coming apart to many people.  The questioning of age-old values, the sexual revolution, the unwinnable war of Vietnam, and a newly rebellious and socially concious youth coming of age were all things that people bemoaned in the 60s.  However, now, many of these elements (the rebellious youth, sexual revolution, questioning age-old values) are seen in a more positive light and even seem to be romanticized by some people (including myself, I must admit, although I dislike how the politically involved anti-war boomers seemed to sell out in the 80s and become yuppies).

The 1970s were a dark time that seemed impossible to romanticize and make the 00s situation look like a picnic.  An exploding divorce rate, violent crime rates higher than they were in the 90s or 00s, a seemingly decade long recession complete with gas shortages (even rationing), Watergate, and the continuation and eventual loss of Vietnam.  It was just total disillusionment.  I even saw a book from 1980 about the 70s that called it "the decade America lost faith in everything."  It's no coincidence that nostalgia first started to become mainstream in the 70s (look at all the 50s nostalgia - Happy Days, Grease, etc.).  However, most people I know who grew up in the 70s neglect to remember these facts.  For them, its all about disco, Star Wars, Happy Days, and stuff like that.

We sort of gloss over the bad when remembering things.  I think that, as you said, knowing the outcome is partially a result of this, although I think people in general tend to gloss over the bad things, especially if they're remembering something from their youth.  Look at how many people romanticize high school as being "the best years of your life" when I knew plenty of people who hated high school when they were actually in it.  They just forgot the bad, or at least tend to put it in the back of minds rather than having it front and center, in favor of the good.



I agree. The '60s and '70s were not only far from 'innocent', they were probably two of the most turbulent decades in American history.

Elvis the Pelivs had a little brother named Enos who was popular at dances.
:P


LMAO!  ;D ;D ;D

(+1 karma to Max)

What?  Where do you get this?   ??? No, you could not pick up any local paper and see full page ads for porno, and Lovelace, Reems, and Perez were not in any way common household names. There were specific newspapers(one or two), usually in large cities with large a huge student population that would have these papers. 99% of the population probably never set eyes on them, and anyone who did had to make an effort to get them.


Well where I live (Pittsburgh PA area) all the local papers carried these ads... that oncludes the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, the now-defunct Pittsbirgh Press, and the Beaver County Times.  Lovelace and Reems were big names in porno 'round these parts, ever since their movie "Deep Throat" made the scene in 1972.  :P

Behind the Green Door... This movie was shown ON CAMPUS when I was going to Penn State along with "The Devil in Miss Jones".  :o

So in my part of the world... porno was indeed widely advertised in the newspapers.  The biggest local venue was a drive-in theatre called The Dependable, and there was also a porn district back then in Pittsburgh along Liberty Avenue (which has since been legislated out of existence).

I remember when I was a kid, one of the theatres always ran an ad, promoting the "all male action" in their movies.  For a really long time I thought these were Army flicks until somebody told me what "all male action" really was.  :-[

This is very true.  Throughout history, one can see a cycle.  The older people bemoan the state of affairs in the world and complain about the youth.  Then the youth grow up and start bemoaning the state of affairs in their world and complaining about the new generation of youth.  

I think that knowing the outcome, as you said, is a key part of why we view the past as innocent.  I'll use the 60s and 70s as examples of this.  At the time in the 60s, it seemed like America was coming apart to many people.  The questioning of age-old values, the sexual revolution, the unwinnable war of Vietnam, and a newly rebellious and socially concious youth coming of age were all things that people bemoaned in the 60s.  However, now, many of these elements (the rebellious youth, sexual revolution, questioning age-old values) are seen in a more positive light and even seem to be romanticized by some people (including myself, I must admit, although I dislike how the politically involved anti-war boomers seemed to sell out in the 80s and become yuppies).

The 1970s were a dark time that seemed impossible to romanticize and make the 00s situation look like a picnic.  An exploding divorce rate, violent crime rates higher than they were in the 90s or 00s, a seemingly decade long recession complete with gas shortages (even rationing), Watergate, and the continuation and eventual loss of Vietnam.  It was just total disillusionment.  I even saw a book from 1980 about the 70s that called it "the decade America lost faith in everything."  It's no coincidence that nostalgia first started to become mainstream in the 70s (look at all the 50s nostalgia - Happy Days, Grease, etc.).  However, most people I know who grew up in the 70s neglect to remember these facts.  For them, its all about disco, Star Wars, Happy Days, and stuff like that.

We sort of gloss over the bad when remembering things.  I think that, as you said, knowing the outcome is partially a result of this, although I think people in general tend to gloss over the bad things, especially if they're remembering something from their youth.  Look at how many people romanticize high school as being "the best years of your life" when I knew plenty of people who hated high school when they were actually in it.  They just forgot the bad, or at least tend to put it in the back of minds rather than having it front and center, in favor of the good.


  From my own experience, and to the best of my recollection, comes to ethics, morals, &etc. I think I was expected to know about these already for some reason.  It was a kind of "hands off" policy.  The situation reminds me of the warden's line in The Shawshank Redemption to the new inmates, "Rule Number One: No blasphemy.  I'll not have the Lord's name taken in vain in my prison.  The other rules you'll figure out as you go along..."

  The 70s were about parental experimentation and some of the best selling books were "Ourselves and our Children" ("Ourselves" coming before "Our Children") where parents are encouraged to:

        ~"Consider yourself first..."
        ~"Benefitting our children is not necessarily our first motivation..."

  New Realism Movement.  Determinism.  Zero Population Growth Movement, blah, blah, blah.  Experimentation...

  People don't realize how screwed things were until they're old enough, or interested enough, to look back on them with a little curiosity.  But give me my chocolate coated sugarbombs and my cartoons and I was good to go... ;D



 

As far as past times being "more innocent," well, just look at the 1920's and 30's during Prohibition. As a matter-of-fact, think about the whole idea behind Prohibition in the first place. Apparently after World War I, there was such an perceived decline in morality that enough people in high places deemed it necessary to outlaw the consumption of alcohol. And all Prohibition really accomplished in the end was to allow the rapid rise of organized crime and a dramatic increase in gang-related violence, particularly in Chicago.

Not to mention that there was also a large public outcry due to the perceived immorality of Hollywood in the 1920's (triggered in large part by the Fatty Arbuckle scandal) that culminated in the Hollywood Production Code (also known as the Hays Code) of 1930, which heavily censored motion pictures and ultimately wasn't abandoned until 1968, when the MPAA adopted a new rating system.

Throughout human history there has always been a demand for vice, whether they be mind-altering substances, gambling, or sexual gratification in one form or another, and there's no shortage of passages in the Bible that address those very things (Sodom and Gomorrah, for example). As far as people believing that past times were "more innocent," I can't help but think that this belief may very well have also been a common theme throughout human history as well. For example, as the Roman Empire fell into decline and decadence during its waning years, it's not hard to imagine that there was no shortage of Romans wishing out loud that they had been alive during "the good old days."  ;)