Hillary isn't a great role model for women who want to be president.  Her claims of experience mostly stem from being wife to a former president.  I know she was active politically in college, but she plays on Bill's success as if it were hers.  Nancy Pelosi might be a better example, if it weren't for the really poor manner in which she's run Congress for the last 18 months.



I think you downplay Hillarys resume.  She was a graduate of Wellesley, a successful lawyer, many attribute Bills making the White House to her, and she is Senator of New York.  I would say the Bills success was hers. Love her or hate her she is a formidable person in her own right.

I sometimes use guys even if I mean women!


Me too

Personally, I find most forms of 'ist' (apart from manichurist and artist of course, lol) to be extreme attitudes and maybe we are too ready to place other people in categories/neat little boxes rather than accept them as they are.

I do know there is an ambiguous dual mentality with women, a lot wanting feminism yet a regression back to older standards when it suits them and, in a way, I don't blame them. If I was in their position I would probably try to wing it so I could have my cake and eat it too. I think this is one of the reasons why men these days (especially myself) get confused with issues like dating and what women expect from us as men.

Like the First World War dictates, if a woman truly wants equal rights then she should be prepared to work in an ammunition factory.

The way I see it, if a woman wants to put on a phoney voice, act like a prostitute and reject her own standards and ideals,  just ignore her when she cries 'sexist!' - all the other women will, lol.

Well, I don't think anybody really gives a hoot about anything anymore. At least not the general public. Has anybody else noticed how some feminists were into womens' rights, but still expected to be treated better as a lady, such as having a door held open, etc.? Maybe you all have and I just didn't know since I haven't really read this thread.

As for grown women being called girls, I've always just sort of considered a girl any female... Kids are just... little girls, I guess.

It's sad that nobody gives a damn, but that's what our culture's become.

i think a big part of it is that much of feminism seems to have conspired with its political opponents to make itself unpalatable. a lot of the radical college-campus stuff that went on in the 90s when i was in college really put me off institutional feminism at the same time that i still feel invested in seeing a more fair and equitable society. they'd do things like post lists of all men on campus with the title "Potential Rapists" and just would generally be quite obnoxious and militant. and the thing is, most of these were well-to-do middle class women from the suburbs, and they're running around like they're members of the symbionese liberation army!
Most of the date rape occurred because women refused to stop hanging around with the campus azzwholes.  Sorry, but it's true.  The big aggressive guys get the girls because both sexes are still playing on 300,000 year-old genetic instincts.  They say they want sensitive men who aren't afraid to cry...but they really want the captain of the basketball team or tattooed bad boy on parole.  Then they're surprised at the results. Every man is a potential rapist, they used to say.  I dunno, when the girl said to stop, I always stopped.  Me and Holden Caulfield. 

You and I were in college at about the same time.  Before I realized what a HORRENDOUS little sh*t he was, I thought Dinesh D'Souza's "Illiberal Education" made some salient points.  I lived through a lot of them.  I took Women's Studies 'coz it got a gen ed requirement out of the way and I thought it would an easy A.  It was an easy A.  However, "Basic Instinct" and "Thelma and Louise" were required viewing.  I also said the wrong thing and got told by the instructor (a husky-voiced lesbian who smoked l'il cigars) that I had NO RIGHT...NO RIGHT...to say anything about the homosexual lifestyle because I didn't "identify as queer."  Just because I had a crew cut didn't make me Doug Neidermeyer!

i think there's definitely an undeserved backlash against the idea of feminism and gender equality, but i also think the specifics of how the political movement of feminism rarified in the 80s and 90s made it a very difficult movement to support. the politically active self-described "feminists" i knew often presumed a position of moral superiority, were largely humorless, did in fact view men rather than patriarchy as the enemy -- despite the language they used -- and responded to criticism with half-baked moral outrage rather than reasoned counterargument or earnest consideration. there were, of course, exceptions to this in the feminist movement, and they tended to be just as frustrated as i was.
Some of them were humorously large!
Sorry. 

I remember when the campus newspaper ran an insert froma pro-life group once...just once...a group called POWER* popped up on the Student Union steps and all these young women were screaming hysterically that "the Collegian hates women!"  I took to the podium and asked whether the group of protesters weren't exercising intolerance themselves!  A dude in the crowd  pointed at me and yelled, "You just say that because you're a man!" 
"That makes one of us," I replied, "and you're cynically hoping to get some nookie out of this riot!" 
Then I split.

Not angry at women?  Campus militant feminists can change that! 

I had some growing up to do myself.  I wouldn't do that nowadays.

*An acronym.  The W was for Women.  I forgot the rest.


ironically, a lot of the "do-me" feminism that came out of the poison pill aspects of second-wave feminism is responsible for the stuff you guys are talking about, this cheapened sexual self-image of a lot of women coming of age these days. that said, being a fan of 60s and 70s stuff the way i am i WILL say that the subtle oppression of women in the mass media of the time is really staggering. go to youtube and watch a commercial for "Tab" cola (search on "be a mind-sticker"  ;D ) or check out any ad for a commercial airline in the 60s or 70s to see the way they portray the stewardesses. feminism has done a lot of good, warts and all, in terms of making that sort of malarky socially unacceptable.

The media totally objectifies women and I wish fewer women would buy into it.  It does pay off in some ways.  Like I said about Elliot Spitzer's consort, she might make a million dollars but men will never respect her.  To me, feminism is about the advancement of women in society, not petty collegiate sexual politics, which is what it got reduce to on campus. 

Well, I don't think anybody really gives a hoot about anything anymore. At least not the general public. Has anybody else noticed how some feminists were into womens' rights, but still expected to be treated better as a lady, such as having a door held open, etc.? Maybe you all have and I just didn't know since I haven't really read this thread.

As for grown women being called girls, I've always just sort of considered a girl any female... Kids are just... little girls, I guess.

It's sad that nobody gives a damn, but that's what our culture's become.



I think you are right that people don't care about anything these days.

As for expecting to be treated like a lady-I expect to be treated with respect. If I going through a door and there are people (male and/or female) behind me, I will hold the door for them and I hope they would do the same for me, especially if my hands are full. To me, that is just common courtesy. And going out to eat, there are many times when I will pay. I love seeing the waitperson's face when I grab the check instead of Carlos.  :D ;D ;D




Cat

Personally, I find most forms of 'ist' (apart from manichurist and artist of course, lol) to be extreme attitudes and maybe we are too ready to place other people in categories/neat little boxes rather than accept them as they are.

I do know there is an ambiguous dual mentality with women, a lot wanting feminism yet a regression back to older standards when it suits them and, in a way, I don't blame them. If I was in their position I would probably try to wing it so I could have my cake and eat it too. I think this is one of the reasons why men these days (especially myself) get confused with issues like dating and what women expect from us as men.

Like the First World War dictates, if a woman truly wants equal rights then she should be prepared to work in an ammunition factory.

The way I see it, if a woman wants to put on a phoney voice, act like a prostitute and reject her own standards and ideals,  just ignore her when she cries 'sexist!' - all the other women will, lol.


Feminism is about equal rights...is about not letting anyone tell you no because of your gender. So IF a woman wants to work in a gun factory she can and that's it,there are millions of women who do what some consider "man jobs" and they do it as well as men.
People forget we despite our genders are all so different...there's no mold for women like there's not one for men.
I'm so tired of men and women complaining about eachother like every guy is a jerk and every woman is a bitch. That's not true and if all the experiences we have with the opposite sex makes you think like that then maybe the problem is in yourself.

I think you are right that people don't care about anything these days.

As for expecting to be treated like a lady-I expect to be treated with respect. If I going through a door and there are people (male and/or female) behind me, I will hold the door for them and I hope they would do the same for me, especially if my hands are full. To me, that is just common courtesy. And going out to eat, there are many times when I will pay. I love seeing the waitperson's face when I grab the check instead of Carlos.  :D ;D ;D




Cat


A lot of it comes down to respect.  If I see an elderly person on the bus or the train I offer him or her my seat.  It can create awkward moments.  The custom used to be expected, now it's just about forgotten. 

I remember reading in my Girlfriend's Cosmo about what the new feminists do.  This must have been 20 years ago: "Today a woman always offers to split the check, but is furious if the man accepts."  Cosmo is not sociological observation; it is how-to instructions.  Hair Do's and Don'ts.  What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  Heady stuff!
:P

A lot of it comes down to respect.  If I see an elderly person on the bus or the train I offer him or her my seat.  It can create awkward moments.  The custom used to be expected, now it's just about forgotten. 

I remember reading in my Girlfriend's Cosmo about what the new feminists do.  This must have been 20 years ago: "Today a woman always offers to split the check, but is furious if the man accepts."  Cosmo is not sociological observation; it is how-to instructions.   Hair Do's and Don'ts.  What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  Heady stuff!
:P


You had a girlfriend who reads Cosmo? Oh Max :( was she at least pretty?

What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  i find the most interesting people at a party are typically under the back porch.

I hope McCain doesn't win, because if he does, it will "prove" in some people's minds that a woman can't be President.

I hope McCain doesn't win, because if he does, it will "prove" in some people's minds that a woman can't be President.


I think a woman can be President, but this particular woman is not the ideal :P

Feminism is about equal rights...is about not letting anyone tell you no because of your gender. So IF a woman wants to work in a gun factory she can and that's it,there are millions of women who do what some consider "man jobs" and they do it as well as men.

My point was actually made to encourage women to do the same work as men and not rest on their gender as a means of resisting equal responsibility for themselves.

People forget we despite our genders are all so different...there's no mold for women like there's not one for men.

Which is exactly what I said in my post.

I'm so tired of men and women complaining about eachother like every guy is a jerk and every woman is a bitch. That's not true and if all the experiences we have with the opposite sex makes you think like that then maybe the problem is in yourself.

Is this last statement directed at me?  ???

I do my very best to treat people as people but I did have a stumbling block which I have dealt with. For a long time, as a result of growing up with my mother, it took a lot of convincing to turn around my belief that all women are emotionally irrational. Yes, I suppose the problem was in myself . . .

. . . However, what I wrote above is not based on beliefs I held because I have got past them. What I wrote was based on first-hand observation and experience.

Is this last statement directed at me?  ???


Nah, I think she's just talking in general. If you've ever had the misfortune to watch some of the reality shows on now, you'd see it. The ideal for these shows is bitchy women and douchebag men, and this gives the idea that we're all like that. :P

My point was actually made to encourage women to do the same work as men and not rest on their gender as a means of resisting equal responsibility for themselves.

Which is exactly what I said in my post.

Is this last statement directed at me?  ???

I do my very best to treat people as people but I did have a stumbling block which I have dealt with. For a long time, as a result of growing up with my mother, it took a lot of convincing to turn around my belief that all women are emotionally irrational. Yes, I suppose the problem was in myself . . .

. . . However, what I wrote above is not based on beliefs I held because I have got past them. What I wrote was based on first-hand observation and experience.


No Bobby i wasn't directing it at you,i quoted your post because its content made me think of that women against men mentality. And when you talked about the "ammunition factory" it seemed to me you were saying that if a woman wants to be treated the same way she needs to act like a man,i'm sorry if got that wrong.

What i was trying to say is that when it comes to dating/love relationships we all have the tendency to blame not making it work on silly gender differences,my girlfriends are always saying "men are pigs" because some guy treated them wrong and my guy friends say "women don't know what they want" because a girl broke their heart...the thing is when we think of eachother that way we're biased by feelings that have nothing to do with what reality is. Yes everyone is either man or woman (by birth or not) but before and after that we're just people,some are great and some are awful and some the majority a mix of both.

No Bobby i wasn't directing it at you,i quoted your post because its content made me think of that women against men mentality. And when you talked about the "ammunition factory" it seemed to me you were saying that if a woman wants to be treated the same way she needs to act like a man,i'm sorry if got that wrong.

No you were right, I just misinterpreted your post, lol.

Not neccessarily to 'act like blokes' but 'not be scared to do bloke's jobs'. I don't want a girlfriend who looks and acts like a bloke - I am perfectly happy doing that myself, ha ha.

You will probably notice I don't treat women with kid gloves. That's not because I am a sexist but . . . well . . . for good or worse I treat them like blokes. Someone has to keep them in line once in a while. ;)

What i was trying to say is that when it comes to dating/love relationships we all have the tendency to blame not making it work on silly gender differences,my girlfriends are always saying "men are pigs" because some guy treated them wrong and my guy friends say "women don't know what they want" because a girl broke their heart...the thing is when we think of eachother that way we're biased by feelings that have nothing to do with what reality is. Yes everyone is either man or woman (by birth or not) but before and after that we're just people,some are great and some are awful and some the majority a mix of both.


That's right. Men and women give these reasons because it's an easy way out. Instead of positively internalising the blame (as in 'what REALLY did go wrong and how can I prevent it in the future?') they externalise them and blame the gender as you mentioned. I think a lot of men and women do this to vent because they find being alone so painful.

One thing I have realised that's stops people moving on from past relationships (probably moving towards a different topic now) is their inability to actually simplify their own situation. For example, someone can come up to me and say 'Why did s/he leave me? Is it because I said/did/thought this? Could my hair be different? Could I lose more weight? Could I get a better job . . . ?' The simple reason is 'because s/he isn't interested'. That's it. If we go back to a point in time where a man/woman has showed interest in us and we haven't felt the same way or we were in a relationship and our feelings changed for the other person then this is exactly the same thing but in reverse and once we accept that it's easier to move on.

No you were right, I just misinterpreted your post, lol.

Not neccessarily to 'act like blokes' but 'not be scared to do bloke's jobs'. I don't want a girlfriend who looks and acts like a bloke - I am perfectly happy doing that myself, ha ha.

You will probably notice I don't treat women with kid gloves. That's not because I am a sexist but . . . well . . . for good or worse I treat them like blokes. Someone has to keep them in line once in a while. ;)

That's right. Men and women give these reasons because it's an easy way out. Instead of positively internalising the blame (as in 'what REALLY did go wrong and how can I prevent it in the future?') they externalise them and blame the gender as you mentioned. I think a lot of men and women do this to vent because they find being alone so painful.

One thing I have realised that's stops people moving on from past relationships (probably moving towards a different topic now) is their inability to actually simplify their own situation. For example, someone can come up to me and say 'Why did s/he leave me? Is it because I said/did/thought this? Could my hair be different? Could I lose more weight? Could I get a better job . . . ?' The simple reason is 'because s/he isn't interested'. That's it. If we go back to a point in time where a man/woman has showed interest in us and we haven't felt the same way or we were in a relationship and our feelings changed for the other person then this is exactly the same thing but in reverse and once we accept that it's easier to move on.


Ah now with that last part i got reminded of that weirdo with the "He's not that into you!"  ;D

I know what you mean i always thought that when sex pursue is not in the way we all pretty much treat women and men the same way.

Ah now with that last part i got reminded of that weirdo with the "He's not that into you!"  ;D

I don't know him, lol.

I know what you mean i always thought that when sex pursue is not in the way we all pretty much treat women and men the same way.


Yeah . . . though you will be surprised how men treat women based on how they look, we poor sods are given good visual skills but poor judgement of character.  ;)

You had a girlfriend who reads Cosmo? Oh Max :( was she at least pretty?

And smart too!  But she liked to play the ditz which is what drove me crazy and away from her!  It wasn't like I could afford to be fussy either.  One time just before I split, she wanted me to take the Cosmo compatability quiz with her.  I was absorbed in Sozhenitsyn or Kafka or something cheerless.  I growled, "I'm REALLY NOT interested!!!"
"You're such a self-centered asswhole," says she.

Was there a need for a compatability quiz?
:D

And smart too!  But she liked to play the ditz which is what drove me crazy and away from her!  It wasn't like I could afford to be fussy either.  One time just before I split, she wanted me to take the Cosmo compatability quiz with her.  I was absorbed in Sozhenitsyn or Kafka or something cheerless.  I growled, "I'm REALLY NOT interested!!!"
"You're such a self-centered asswhole," says she.

Was there a need for a compatability quiz?
:D


Well, you do know that once you're done with a Kafka reading, you think you're in charge of everything.

Well, you do know that once you're done with a Kafka reading, you think you're in charge of everything.
actually, i think it's the opposite, once you're done with a kafka reading you find that shadowy forces are controlling and guiding your every feckless move toward a hopeless random fate. or something.

actually, i think it's the opposite, once you're done with a kafka reading you find that shadowy forces are controlling and guiding your every feckless move toward a hopeless random fate. or something.


You mean he didn't turn into a giant beetle on purpose?

You mean he didn't turn into a giant beetle on purpose?
you know what's a hot one? "the castle." he wrote it before he died, didn't quite finish it. it's very freaky, i get the feeling the folks who made the movie "brazil" were probably big fans of "the castle."

"the trial"'s good too. aaannnnddd... short stories, "report to the academy" and "in the penal colony." it's weird, weird stuff, it's too bad he's become a bit of a joke ("it's... kafkaesque!") cuz he really did some pretty cool stuff.

patriarchal, though. to get back on subject.

you know what's a hot one? "the castle." he wrote it before he died, didn't quite finish it. it's very freaky, i get the feeling the folks who made the movie "brazil" were probably big fans of "the castle."



I think that Brazil was written by one of the Monty Python crew.  Can't recall who  :-\\

I think that Brazil was written by one of the Monty Python crew.  Can't recall who  :-\\


t'was, i can almost remember the name. terry jones? no, gilliam. he also did "twelve monkeys" and "baron munchausen." he's so kafkaesque!

you know what's a hot one? "the castle." he wrote it before he died, didn't quite finish it. it's very freaky, i get the feeling the folks who made the movie "brazil" were probably big fans of "the castle."

"the trial"'s good too. aaannnnddd... short stories, "report to the academy" and "in the penal colony." it's weird, weird stuff, it's too bad he's become a bit of a joke ("it's... kafkaesque!") cuz he really did some pretty cool stuff.

patriarchal, though. to get back on subject.


I've read "The Trial" and "In the Penal Colony."

I have one of the short stories books.

>:-}D And screw staying on topic - I mean... um... So, feminism. I did a report on that for English. I can't wait to present it and have the class laugh at me for being a woman. :D

I've read "The Trial" and "In the Penal Colony."

I have one of the short stories books.

>:-}D And screw staying on topic - I mean... um... So, feminism. I did a report on that for English. I can't wait to present it and have the class laugh at me for being a woman. :D
ah! good man. manly men read kafka. and, um, women too.

I remember when the campus newspaper ran an insert froma pro-life group once...just once...a group called POWER* popped up on the Student Union steps and all these young women were screaming hysterically that "the Collegian hates women!"  I took to the podium and asked whether the group of protesters weren't exercising intolerance themselves!  A dude in the crowd  pointed at me and yelled, "You just say that because you're a man!" 
"That makes one of us," I replied, "and you're cynically hoping to get some nookie out of this riot!" 
Then I split.

(+1 karma to Max)

*An acronym.  The W was for Women.  I forgot the rest.

You don't happen to remember if they spelled "women" with a "y," do you?

Because the deliberate misspelling of the word as "womyn" is one of those things that annoys the living sh*t out of me.

(+1 karma to Max)

You don't happen to remember if they spelled "women" with a "y," do you?

Because the deliberate misspelling of the word as "womyn" is one of those things that annoys the living sh*t out of me.


i always had a bit of trouble taking it seriously. it seemed like even the real far out feminists were mostly embarrassed to break that one out. but i went to a state college, i'm sure at vassar there's a lot more of that sort of thing.

A lot of it comes down to respect.  If I see an elderly person on the bus or the train I offer him or her my seat.  It can create awkward moments.  The custom used to be expected, now it's just about forgotten. 

I remember reading in my Girlfriend's Cosmo about what the new feminists do.  This must have been 20 years ago: "Today a woman always offers to split the check, but is furious if the man accepts."  Cosmo is not sociological observation; it is how-to instructions.   Hair Do's and Don'ts.  What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  Heady stuff!
:P


As a sidenote, I've actually been reading Cosmo since the mid-late '90s. ;) Even though I don't always agree with some of the categorizations they put things in (i.e. like with what they think boyfriends/husbands or men in general will like or how they may react in a given situation. Then again I'm not the stereotypical guy, lol)...I always liked it and thought it was interesting. I guess because it's from womens' perspective and is aimed towards a female demographic, it kinda helped me understand where they're coming from on certain things.

Feminism and other causes have fizzled out because generally everyone is too self-indulgent to:
1. Care about any specific cause
2. Fight for that particular cause

As a sidenote, I've actually been reading Cosmo since the mid-late '90s. ;) Even though I don't always agree with some of the categorizations they put things in (i.e. like with what they think boyfriends/husbands or men in general will like or how they may react in a given situation. Then again I'm not the stereotypical guy, lol)...I always liked it and thought it was interesting. I guess because it's from womens' perspective and is aimed towards a female demographic, it kinda helped me understand where they're coming from on certain things.


Put the Cosmo aside,Mcfly. Unless you want to learn about makeup tricks and how to loose 10 pounds in one day that magazine will not help anyone understand anything.

Put the Cosmo aside,Mcfly. Unless you want to learn about makeup tricks and how to loose 10 pounds in one day that magazine will not help anyone understand anything.
thanks iz. i wasn't sure how to handle that one. ;D

i actually had a subscription to "bitch" magazine for a while tho.  :-[

Put the Cosmo aside,Mcfly. Unless you want to learn about makeup tricks and how to loose 10 pounds in one day that magazine will not help anyone understand anything.


I've found it best to understand women by talking to them.

... Although I just kind of do/say what I please and I haven't gotten slapped yet...

It's so freaky, but as of about 2005 I've beagn to notice a slow decline in feminist values and whatnot, especially in the way society treats girls from about 8 to 14. Think about it: I read in Time a couple months ago about a return to modesty, there's a current trend in stay-at-home mmothership, and also people's comments and jeers at Hillary Clinton. Also, most girls my age (I'm fifteen) don't care about women's rights or even their own rights. It's beginning to really freak me out. Another thng I've noticed: People frequently call adult women "girls". It's hyper-irritating to hear a forty-year-old woman calling herslef a girl. It's demeaning.


Heh...  you think women's rights are in danger here?  You ought to see what they are like in the Islamic World...   Or, in some cases, you can just talk with the more conservative Muslims in America to see what they think of women.

I'm all for gender equality, but the worst conditions for women's rights are typically in the Third World (especially many Muslim nations).

Heh...  you think women's rights are in danger here?  You ought to see what they are like in the Islamic World...  Or, in some cases, you can just talk with the more conservative Muslims in America to see what they think of women.

I'm all for gender equality, but the worst conditions for women's rights are typically in the Third World (especially many Muslim nations).


All the more reason to make sure that there isn't an erosion of rights here, and erosion of rights can happen, and it isn't just conservative Muslims who do not think well of rights of anyone but males.  I work in a male dominated profession so I have seen both sides of that mountain.

Heh...  you think women's rights are in danger here?  You ought to see what they are like in the Islamic World...   Or, in some cases, you can just talk with the more conservative Muslims in America to see what they think of women.

I'm all for gender equality, but the worst conditions for women's rights are typically in the Third World (especially many Muslim nations).


Sorry Mac but what a poor argument. Unless you are talking about the role of religion in how women are seen and if you are then conservative Muslims are certainly not alone ::)

I agree with Danoota about "erosion of rights"  in fact i believe that is already happening in other fields.
What is more troubling are the societies like America we were pioneers in the fight for equal rights for men and women and now seem to see it as a minor issue and don't realise how dangerous it can be if we allow ourselves to forget how crucial those rights are and how important it is to protect them.

Sorry Mac but what a poor argument. Unless you are talking about the role of religion in how women are seen and if you are then conservative Muslims are certainly not alone ::)

I agree with Danoota about "erosion of rights"  in fact i believe that is already happening in other fields.
What is more troubling are the societies like America we were pioneers in the fight for equal rights for men and women and now seem to see it as a minor issue and don't realise how dangerous it can be if we allow ourselves to forget how crucial those rights are and how important it is to protect them.



It's not a poor argument if you understand that everything is relative.  There's a much stronger argument in favor of supporting gay rights than there is in some perceived threat against women's rights.  Sure, some progress is still left to be made, but logically speaking, you have to understand that America and the First World in general treats women far better than the rest of the world.  Gender relations really are equal here when you consider what Saudi Arabian women have to go through, for example.

All I'm asking is that people be more realistic and sober in their logic when confronting sexism.  Some of you in this thread sound like you're willing to equate our treatment of women to forcing them to wear hijabs.  In a global sense, women have it better in the West than anywhere else in the world, and that's something we should be proud of, rather than complaining about every little thing or getting paranoid over perceived slights.

It's not a poor argument if you understand that everything is relative.  There's a much stronger argument in favor of supporting gay rights than there is in some perceived threat against women's rights.  Sure, some progress is still left to be made, but logically speaking, you have to understand that America and the First World in general treats women far better than the rest of the world.  Gender relations really are equal here when you consider what Saudi Arabian women have to go through, for example.

All I'm asking is that people be more realistic and sober in their logic when confronting sexism.  Some of you in this thread sound like you're willing to equate our treatment of women to forcing them to wear hijabs.  In a global sense, women have it better in the West than anywhere else in the world, and that's something we should be proud of, rather than complaining about every little thing or getting paranoid over perceived slights.


We are not in Saudi Arabia, or any other country, we are in the United States, so suggesting that we should be happy because we have it better as opposed to women, or any other group that has issues of equality, in any other country is just condescending crap. 

It's not a poor argument if you understand that everything is relative.  There's a much stronger argument in favor of supporting gay rights than there is in some perceived threat against women's rights.  Sure, some progress is still left to be made, but logically speaking, you have to understand that America and the First World in general treats women far better than the rest of the world.  Gender relations really are equal here when you consider what Saudi Arabian women have to go through, for example.

All I'm asking is that people be more realistic and sober in their logic when confronting sexism.  Some of you in this thread sound like you're willing to equate our treatment of women to forcing them to wear hijabs.  In a global sense, women have it better in the West than anywhere else in the world, and that's something we should be proud of, rather than complaining about every little thing or getting paranoid over perceived slights.



We are not in Saudi Arabia, or any other country, we are in the United States, so suggesting that we should be happy because we have it better as opposed to women, or any other group that has issues of equality, in any other county is just condescending crap. 


Again Dannota just nailed it. That sort of excuse makes my nerves bad "you think here is bad? look at so an so", next will come "if you don't like it here then move to so and so and you'll see how worse it is there" ::) Just because other places have it worse doesn't mean you can't complain or push for things to get better here because we are far from ideal.

It's so freaky, but as of about 2005 I've beagn to notice a slow decline in feminist values and whatnot, especially in the way society treats girls from about 8 to 14. Think about it: I read in Time a couple months ago about a return to modesty, there's a current trend in stay-at-home mmothership, and also people's comments and jeers at Hillary Clinton. Also, most girls my age (I'm fifteen) don't care about women's rights or even their own rights. It's beginning to really freak me out. Another thng I've noticed: People frequently call adult women "girls". It's hyper-irritating to hear a forty-year-old woman calling herslef a girl. It's demeaning.


  Feminism is evolving, so it is a moving target to try to judge...

  We need to give feminism and feminists more time to see what happens and how whatever happens goes down with both women and men.  We've had thousands of years to sort out "masculism."  Let's give the women a bit more than a mere half century before expecting a coherent philosophy with results to be proud of...

  And you should always hold doors open for men and women, alike... :)

   Feminism is evolving, so it is a moving target to try to judge...

   We need to give feminism and feminists more time to see what happens and how whatever happens goes down with both women and men.  We've had thousands of years to sort out "masculism."  Let's give the women a bit more than a mere half century before expecting a coherent philosophy with results to be proud of...

  And you should always hold doors open for men and women, alike... :)


Thank you for pointing that out!
Major pet peeve of mine people who don't hold the door for the person behind them and people who don't say thank you when someone holds the door for them >:(

Thank you for pointing that out!
Major pet peeve of mine people who don't hold the door for the person behind them and people who don't say thank you when someone holds the door for them >:(


I'd rather people don't hold the door open for me, usually.
Same with saying "bless you" whenever I sneeze. It's tough to find some common traditions and rituals that everybody agrees on, and sometimes it can't be done.

HOWEVER: I do think men AND women should close the toilet seat and cover after using the toilet - that way, everybody has to lift something and it can really be equal.





Now, as far as feminism goes - Yes, there are sexist people, and you really can't change that. Some people just have ideas in their heads and that's their right as a human being; but the number of sexist people is dropping dramatically, and I'm sure that within a couple of generations, there will only be a couple left... In America, at least. The rights of America aren't sexist (although the whole thing about women being paid less for work really should change, I can't believe some employers still do that!) and so the sexist people are just something we have to put up with, much like the racists and the other prejudice people.

Again Dannota just nailed it. That sort of excuse makes my nerves bad "you think here is bad? look at so an so", next will come "if you don't like it here then move to so and so and you'll see how worse it is there" ::) Just because other places have it worse doesn't mean you can't complain or push for things to get better here because we are far from ideal.


I never said you couldn't complain.  Although...  the ideal part is kind of part of the problem.  Do you really expect it EVER to be ideal?  You have to be realistic about these things.

Besides, if you really care that much about gender equality, how about evening out gender rights in custody battles?  You do realize women have a major advantage in retaining custody of their children, even when the man clearly would provide a better environment for them.

In addition to this, single mothers generally receive more financial aid than single fathers for no other reason than their gender.  We also have affirmative action, which favors women in getting hired over men despite the fact that this program claims to support equality.

I never said you couldn't complain.  Although...  the ideal part is kind of part of the problem.  Do you really expect it EVER to be ideal?  You have to be realistic about these things.

Besides, if you really care that much about gender equality, how about evening out gender rights in custody battles?  You do realize women have a major advantage in retaining custody of their children, even when the man clearly would provide a better environment for them.

In addition to this, single mothers generally receive more financial aid than single fathers for no other reason than their gender.  We also have affirmative action, which favors women in getting hired over men despite the fact that this program claims to support equality.


MMmmmmmm.  Affirmative action doesn't favor women in getting hired over men, it tries to level the playing field.  Single mothers generally receive more financial aid then single fathers because they, like women and men in the workforce, generally make less money than single fathers, Right now affirmative action is allowing caucasian males who are less qualified than women to enter college in the name of diversity.  It seems that while women have been doing much better academically, the reverse is true of males, so to even out the playing field they, males, are given points to get them in. Don't hear any complaints, or court cases, on that.

    I do care about gender equality, which is what the feminist movement, at its core is about, especially when it comes to parental rights, and I more than support fathers that have custody issues.  I have seen both sides of that mountain also, and know some women who shouldn't be within 50ft of their children retain custody, and I have seen fathers who are the same.  A lot of this has to do with historically entrenched perceptions that the feminist movement has done a lot to dispel.

    No I do not expect any situation to be ideal, but I do not see any reason not to strive towards making life closer to what is perceived as ideal.  It is what my great grands did, my grands did, and my parents did.  I am a beneficiary of their activism.  I do not believe that gives me the right to look at my child, or any child, and say "close enough".  I believe I have the responsibility to do what I can to make sure that their lives are a bit better.  History shows advances of Reconstruction can be demolished..."post-reconstruction" happens.  That may not mean much to you, to me there is always that vague nagging apprehension that keeps me close to the border.

MMmmmmmm.  Affirmative action doesn't favor women in getting hired over men, it tries to level the playing field.  Single mothers generally receive more financial aid then single fathers because they, like women and men in the workforce, generally make less money than single fathers, Right now affirmative action is allowing caucasian males who are less qualified than women to enter college in the name of diversity.  It seems that while women have been doing much better academically, the reverse is true of males, so to even out the playing field they, males, are given points to get them in. Don't hear any complaints, or court cases, on that.

What you just mentioned should demonstrate quite clearly how ridiculous affirmative action really is.  Leveling the playing field is a good thing in a financial sense, but favoring one gender or race over another is just reverse racism or sexism.  If any group needs help, it's the poor.  Affirmative action should simply aid people who are poor regardless of race or gender.  "Diversity" is mostly window dressing for the politically correct.  Employers should hire whoever is most qualified, rather than having to fill quotas based on arbitrary demographics.  By the same token, students with the best grades should be helped to enter college, regardless of the ratio of races and gender.

If you want a colorblind and genderblind system, you gotta have the same traits in laws and systems.

I do care about gender equality, which is what the feminist movement, at its core is about, especially when it comes to parental rights, and I more than support fathers that have custody issues.  I have seen both sides of that mountain also, and know some women who shouldn't be within 50ft of their children retain custody, and I have seen fathers who are the same.  A lot of this has to do with historically entrenched perceptions that the feminist movement has done a lot to dispel.

No I do not expect any situation to be ideal, but I do not see any reason not to strive towards making life closer to what is perceived as ideal.  It is what my great grands did, my grands did, and my parents did.  I am a beneficiary of their activism.  I do not believe that gives me the right to look at my child, or any child, and say "close enough".  I believe I have the responsibility to do what I can to make sure that their lives are a bit better.  History shows advances of Reconstruction can be demolished..."post-reconstruction" happens.  That may not mean much to you, to me there is always that vague nagging apprehension that keeps me close to the border.


You do realize that Reconstruction did a better job of making blacks victims and targets of hate than it did of creating racial equality.

You do realize that Reconstruction did a better job of making blacks victims and targets of hate than it did of creating racial equality.




No, it was post-Reconstruction that allowed the perpertrators of atrocities to do what they would unchecked for several generations.

I thought this was relevant to the subject.

Male Geishas

Historically, geishas used to be men anyways, but this is a new twist on it. :)

It's so freaky, but as of about 2005 I've beagn to notice a slow decline in feminist values and whatnot, especially in the way society treats girls from about 8 to 14. Think about it: I read in Time a couple months ago about a return to modesty, there's a current trend in stay-at-home mmothership, and also people's comments and jeers at Hillary Clinton. Also, most girls my age (I'm fifteen) don't care about women's rights or even their own rights. It's beginning to really freak me out. Another thng I've noticed: People frequently call adult women "girls". It's hyper-irritating to hear a forty-year-old woman calling herslef a girl. It's demeaning.


I think its wonderful that feminism is on the decline. Im all for equal rights, but you dont always have to start some revolution to get things done.
As far as being called "girls" Wait until your fourty and see if you like it when your referred to as "maam" or an "old lady". You are retarded if you think its demeaning. Just because someone wants to feel young.

Each Person, as an individual has rights, Its people like you that screw things up. Calling it "womens rights". Are there specific rights only held by women that somehow all men missed? I didnt thinks so, they are "Human Rights" the sex of a person has nothing to do with rights. And if you are dumb enough to be blinded by your fellow females. You dont even deserve the rights you currently have.

I think its wonderful that feminism is on the decline. Im all for equal rights, but you dont always have to start some revolution to get things done.
As far as being called "girls" Wait until your fourty and see if you like it when your referred to as "maam" or an "old lady". You are retarded if you think its demeaning. Just because someone wants to feel young.

Each Person, as an individual has rights, Its people like you that screw things up. Calling it "womens rights". Are there specific rights only held by women that somehow all men missed? I didnt thinks so, they are "Human Rights" the sex of a person has nothing to do with rights. And if you are dumb enough to be blinded by your fellow females. You dont even deserve the rights you currently have.


Wowee.  First of all I am 56 and I do not like being called a girl, I have been there and done that and believe I deserve a bit more respect.  Ma'am is fine, but old lady can go either way.  Yes each person has individual rights, but they are not always observed.  How many men have had to argue for the right to buy a house, have a credit card in there own name, or use birth control.  Your lack of  education is patently obvious. Who are you to decide who has rights and who doesn't?

I thought this was relevant to the subject.

Male Geishas

Historically, geishas used to be men anyways, but this is a new twist on it. :)


Women work alot these days and are moving up the ranks and running companies (probably better than men because women can actually multi-task).  They work hard and may seek male companionship as the men do for female companionship - Hello, Eliot Spitzer.

Saudi Arabia is the worst nation for womens' rights. They have none and are possessions.  Very bad!

Wowee.  First of all I am 56 and I do not like being called a girl
Oh, I thought you were "fourty."
::)

Women work alot these days and are moving up the ranks and running companies (probably better than men because women can actually multi-task).  They work hard and may seek male companionship as the men do for female companionship - Hello, Eliot Spitzer.

Saudi Arabia is the worst nation for womens' rights. They have none and are possessions.  Very bad!





;D

I have to admit that's true about me too, whatever the setting is. I'm a horrible multi tasker lol. Don't get me wrong I can do it when it's necesarry, but I generally have a one-track mind. That's one of the few ways in which I'm something of a typical guy I guess.

I do agree with you about Saudi Arabia and alot of those middle-eastern nations being totally disgusting and deplorable as far as how they treat women. Especially since the government not only allows but encourages it. Makes even the worst stuff in the US look mild by comparison. Imagine going through your whole life having no rights or abilities to express yourself and were owned by someone else who was supposed to love you.


As for the "ma'am" thing, I think it depends on the individual but I can understand why some people don't like it. I feel kinda awkward when people call me "sir". I admit it doesn't happen that often (maybe because I'm only 26 and plus people say I look youngish for my age at that), but when it does it's like "Whoa, come on I'm cooler than that!"

It depends on the context too though, like a policeman or a doctor calling me that is perfectly fine. But I don't particularly like it when it's with someone closer to my age who could potentially be a friend, especially a cute girl, lol. ;) I like just generally feeling like a young man, so that doesn't always help. Even when I hear it from little kids I don't really mind but it's still kinda weird. "Dude" "bro" or "man" all feel much better in a casual environment.

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.


Lol.  ;D

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.

Somebody you should meet: Valerie Solanas' & SCUM!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.


1968:  (Thanks to feminism), a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.
2008:  (Thanks to omnipresent pr0n), a man needs a woman like a bicycle needs a fish.

Careful what you ask for, Valerie.  You might get it.  :)

;D

I have to admit that's true about me too, whatever the setting is. I'm a horrible multi tasker lol. Don't get me wrong I can do it when it's necesarry, but I generally have a one-track mind. That's one of the few ways in which I'm something of a typical guy I guess.

I do agree with you about Saudi Arabia and alot of those middle-eastern nations being totally disgusting and deplorable as far as how they treat women. Especially since the government not only allows but encourages it. Makes even the worst stuff in the US look mild by comparison. Imagine going through your whole life having no rights or abilities to express yourself and were owned by someone else who was supposed to love you.


As for the "ma'am" thing, I think it depends on the individual but I can understand why some people don't like it. I feel kinda awkward when people call me "sir". I admit it doesn't happen that often (maybe because I'm only 26 and plus people say I look youngish for my age at that), but when it does it's like "Whoa, come on I'm cooler than that!"

It depends on the context too though, like a policeman or a doctor calling me that is perfectly fine. But I don't particularly like it when it's with someone closer to my age who could potentially be a friend, especially a cute girl, lol. ;) I like just generally feeling like a young man, so that doesn't always help. Even when I hear it from little kids I don't really mind but it's still kinda weird. "Dude" "bro" or "man" all feel much better in a casual environment.


Hell, some people call me sir.

I don't think what they call you is as important as what they mean when they call you by that name.

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.


Fair enough.

Just do me a favor: Next time you're driving down the freeway and you have a blowout, don't stand there next to your car and start acting like you're "helpless" or something.

If you hate men so much, then change your own freakin' tire.  ;D

Fair enough.

Just do me a favor: Next time you're driving down the freeway and you have a blowout, don't stand there next to your car and start acting like you're "helpless" or something.

If you hate men so much, then change your own freakin' tire.  ;D


I think the guest who made that post was either (1) angry, or more likely (2) exaggerating and not being totally serious, maybe just to see what the reaction would be. Assuming she is being serious, I actually can agree to a point and I can see where anger and resenement of (typical) men can come from...but it's not cool to be extremist like that either.

BTW, lots of women can change a flat tire too. ;) And probably some a heck of a lot better than me!


Hell, some people call me sir.

I don't think what they call you is as important as what they mean when they call you by that name.


LMAO I actually forgot I made that post until you quoted it. ;)

Oh yeah, I started getting "sirred" when I was as young as 14 (usually just by store clerks lol), but I absolutely agree. I don't care about a word nearly as much as its meaning.

I think the guest who made that post was either (1) angry, or more likely (2) exaggerating and not being totally serious, maybe just to see what the reaction would be. Assuming she is being serious, I actually can agree to a point and I can see where anger and resenement of (typical) men can come from...but it's not cool to be extremist like that either.

BTW, lots of women can change a flat tire too. ;) And probably some a heck of a lot better than me!

Probably a troll, but if she is serious then she can go f*ck herself.

I'm all for equal rights and treating women with respect and all that, but at the same time I'm not going to apologize for being male.

It's not as if the male gender has a monopoly on assholishness, as our "guest" just proved.

Probably a troll, but if she is serious then she can go f*ck herself.

I'm all for equal rights and treating women with respect and all that, but at the same time I'm not going to apologize for being male.

It's not as if the male gender has a monopoly on assholishness, as our "guest" just proved.


No offense Al, but I'm not always proud of being a straight guy, just because of common stereotypes I don't fit into...and I disagree with you. Even if that person is a good example of going WAY too far the other way, telling someone to F off isn't cool. Then again, discriminating gender either way isn't either, so I get what you're saying in a way.

I think men are sometimes (even unintentionally or subconciously) looked at as being meaner, less approachable and more "threatening", so no I'm not always crazy about being lumped into that. Of course that's not true for everyone, but the ones who ARE a*sholes, they make the others look bad by comparison. Point blank, I've always been able to relate to girls/women, I like them alot and I value their feelings or just having shared interests and conversations. I don't look at them "because they're hot" or ask them out because I'm "trying to get laid". I can see past that, but the pigs make us all look bad, so I understand why they don't like us sometimes. ;)

Seriously, I don't mean to insult you or anything dude, I apologize but it's just a kinda sensitive issue with me.

No offense Al, but I'm not always proud of being a straight guy, just because of common stereotypes I don't fit into...and I disagree with you. Even if that person is a good example of going WAY too far the other way, telling someone to F off isn't cool. Then again, discriminating gender either way isn't either, so I get what you're saying in a way.

I think men are sometimes (even unintentionally or subconciously) looked at as being meaner, less approachable and more "threatening", so no I'm not always crazy about being lumped into that. Of course that's not true for everyone, but the ones who ARE a*sholes, they make the others look bad by comparison. Point blank, I've always been able to relate to girls/women, I like them alot and I value their feelings or just having shared interests and conversations. I don't look at them "because they're hot" or ask them out because I'm "trying to get laid". I can see past that, but the pigs make us all look bad, so I understand why they don't like us sometimes. ;)

Seriously, I don't mean to insult you or anything dude, I apologize but it's just a kinda sensitive issue with me.


No offense taken. :)

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