One more religious topic...

Many Christians believe their duty on earth is to be as much like Christ as possible. What does that mean? Which of Christ's actions are you supposed to emulate?

You know the popular phrase, "What Would Jesus Do?" Perhaps you could also look at the answers to "What Did Jesus Do?"

Jesus taught that the unfortunate of this world would be blessed.
He called people to follow him.
He called the scribes and Pharisees "hypocrites".
He fed the hungry.
He healed the sick.

What are you supposed to do in order to be "Christlike"?

I was part of the Jehovah's Witness's, Womberty and they were very strict. A man was rarely allowed to be alone with a woman for example, if he had a date with a lady within the organisation, he should have a 'chaperone' (the chaperone was usually some poor sod who had nothing better to do that night). This is to reduce the temptation of fornication - they quoted Jesus saying 'If a man was to look at a woman to have passion for her, he has commited fornication in his heart' (or something to that effect). I was a red-blooded teenager around that period of time, this scripture did absolutely nothing to help me.  ;D

I am currently living with my girlfriend in a full relationship before marriage, does this mean that I am bad and worthy of going to metaphorical/literal hell?

If these were the levels of strictness to be Christ-like, and remember we are all imperfect as Jesus was not, how can we obtain an impossible task? It's like Sissyphus rolling a big boulder up a hill only for it to roll back down again.  :(

I think Dagwood put it very nicely in her previous post on another topic.  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." 


Very true. I'm afraid my feelings about this topic are a little more complex than humanitarian morality, 80s cheerleader. To be 'Christlike', I would have thought would take a lot more. The 'Faith without works is dead' scripture springs to mind (I have no idea where it is in the bible).

If the righteous are the only ones to be saved come God's time of judgement. What is it going to take to get saved?

If the righteous are the only ones to be saved come God's time of judgement. What is it going to take to get saved?


IMO, it isn't the 'righteous' it is those with faith.  Good works won't get you to heaven, it is accepting the gift of salvation that Christ gave us when he died for our sins on the cross.  Of course, God likes it when we do good...it's just that works doesn't save us.  It really is that simple...just believe that Christ died for our sins and accept that gift.  There are no other requirements.  Church is good because of the fellowshiping with other Christians and learning more about the bible, but it isn't required.  God knows the heart and that is what matters.

IMO, it isn't the 'righteous' it is those with faith.  Good works won't get you to heaven, it is accepting the gift of salvation that Christ gave us when he died for our sins on the cross.  Of course, God likes it when we do good...it's just that works doesn't save us.  It really is that simple...just believe that Christ died for our sins and accept that gift.  There are no other requirements.  Church is good because of the fellowshiping with other Christians and learning more about the bible, but it isn't required.  God knows the heart and that is what matters.





What about non-Christians? Jews, Muslims, etc. Will they NOT go to Heaven? I'm not trying to cause an argument, just trying to understand your religion.



Cat

What about non-Christians? Jews, Muslims, etc.


Cat


I read this book a long time ago called ''One God: Many ways of worship.''  It pointed out that the 3 major religions (Christians, Jews, and Muslims) basically all worship the same God.  God and Allah and the jewish God are the same and it explained why.  Jesus though is a different case, he is what seperates the Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

IMO, it isn't the 'righteous' it is those with faith.  Good works won't get you to heaven, it is accepting the gift of salvation that Christ gave us when he died for our sins on the cross.  Of course, God likes it when we do good...it's just that works doesn't save us.  It really is that simple...just believe that Christ died for our sins and accept that gift.  There are no other requirements.  Church is good because of the fellowshiping with other Christians and learning more about the bible, but it isn't required.  God knows the heart and that is what matters.


I will repeat what I said previously. In the bible it said 'faith without deeds is dead' (James 2:26). You may have faith and accept the salvation that Christ gave us, but if we do nothing to show this then our faith, according to the bible is 'dead' anyway.

At the risk of sparking off a completely different debate, I'll answer the question with one word: "mythical"

(..and before anyone jumps down my throat for this, could they please cite a contemporary document which even mentions his existance)

Doesn't Revelations say that only those whose names are recorded in the Book of Life will be saved, and the rest cast into the Lake of Fire? To me that sounds like the fate of our souls has already been predetermined. Therefore, you were either born righteous and bound for Heaven, or you're not.

What about non-Christians? Jews, Muslims, etc. Will they NOT go to Heaven? I'm not trying to cause an argument, just trying to understand your religion.

Cat


Jews are still the chosen people.  What my religion teaches is that if you do not accept the gift of salvation and Christ as your Lord and savior then you won't go to heaven. 

I will repeat what I said previously. In the bible it said 'faith without deeds is dead' (James 2:26). You may have faith and accept the salvation that Christ gave us, but if we do nothing to show this then our faith, according to the bible is 'dead' anyway.




I understand that.  I still say it is faith in Christ that gets you there.  If you truly have faith then usually you want to do good for others.  If you are out there robbing liquor stores (or other things that people consider un christian) then you probably don't have the faith.  Kinda like wanting to please your parents so you do what they want.

Doesn't Revelations say that only those whose names are recorded in the Book of Life will be saved, and the rest cast into the Lake of Fire? To me that sounds like the fate of our souls has already been predetermined. Therefore, you were either born righteous and bound for Heaven, or you're not.


Revelation does say this.  But, when a person accepts Christ (becomes saved) then their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, which to think of it in our terms would be sort of like a roll call. 

I do my very best to live my life exactly how I think God and Jesus would  want me to live it. That's my number one goal. I want to go to Heaven and have Jesus and/or God look me right in the eye the same way Sholess Joe Jackson  said to Archie Graham in Field of Dreams and say "Hey (name), you were good."

I originally had my name up their, but I don't feel right posting my real name on the internet.

Revelation does say this.  But, when a person accepts Christ (becomes saved) then their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, which to think of it in our terms would be sort of like a roll call. 


Exactly. 

I understand that.  I still say it is faith in Christ that gets you there.  If you truly have faith then usually you want to do good for others.  If you are out there robbing liquor stores (or other things that people consider un christian) then you probably don't have the faith.  Kinda like wanting to please your parents so you do what they want.


I was kind of inspired to read the whole of that chapter of James last night and yes it is those kind of deeds it talks about (helping the needy etc . . .). The Jehovah's Witnesses use this chapter to advertise the preaching work (ministry). That was why I got so confused.

I was kind of inspired to read the whole of that chapter of James last night and yes it is those kind of deeds it talks about (helping the needy etc . . .). The Jehovah's Witnesses use this chapter to advertise the preaching work (ministry). That was why I got so confused.


Nothing wrong with good works.  It is just the understanding that that isn't what gets you into heaven. 

I think Dagwood put it very nicely in her previous post on another topic.  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." 


Cat can't log out, SO THIS IS DC

I think that is just a beginning.  I'm not at all religious, but I believe that wer have an obligation, and I don't care how you rationalize it, to help our fellows in need.  In another thread Cat spoke of the "law of three".  "What you sow, so shall ye reap" is how the bible states it - if I'm not mistaken.  I don't mean to be argumentative or disrespectful, but I think these are clearer than "do unto others..."  In the venacular, what goes around, comes around, unless if you are in the very priveliged minority, where scr**ing others gets you additional millions.  Sorry to be cynical, but its all to true.

IMO, it isn't the 'righteous' it is those with faith.  Good works won't get you to heaven, it is accepting the gift of salvation that Christ gave us when he died for our sins on the cross.  Of course, God likes it when we do good...it's just that works doesn't save us.  It really is that simple...just believe that Christ died for our sins and accept that gift.  There are no other requirements.  Church is good because of the fellowshiping with other Christians and learning more about the bible, but it isn't required.  God knows the heart and that is what matters.




This is DC again

Dag, I respect your beliefs, although  I find them a bit contradictory.  No matter - they are your religious beliefs and are therefore beyond debate.  But let me ask you this.  I DO NOT accept Christ as my personal savior or any other kind of savior.  I accept Jesus as a good and wise man who can serve as a guide (only a guide) to moral behavior.  I think, though, that I have led a fairly moral life.  In fact I think that even my x wife would say that I have treated her fairly and that she was at least as responsible for our split as I was (I would say more so - but that's another story).  So, I think that I can stand bewfore the pearly gates with as pure a heart as most mortals, and maybe purer than some, since I believe in, and practice "random acts of kindness and help".  So what's your read?

DC - just delete your cookies! It will log off Cat's acount. :P

Revelation does say this.  But, when a person accepts Christ (becomes saved) then their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, which to think of it in our terms would be sort of like a roll call. 


Is the name written at the time they are saved, or were all the names written down at the beginning of the world? (meaning God already knows who will and will not be saved, and if your name's not there already, you won't be?)

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

(emphasis mine)

The Holy Trinity is a dysfunctional family.
:P

Is the name written at the time they are saved, or were all the names written down at the beginning of the world? (meaning God already knows who will and will not be saved, and if your name's not there already, you won't be?)

Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

(emphasis mine)



That is the exactly verse I was thinking of when I made my post. It's actually a pretty ambiguous line, but the way I read it, you're either in the Book right from the start, or you're not, and if THAT'S the case it doesn't matter what you do.

Do unto others, and split!
;D

A very popular bumper sticker/t-shirt in the 70s. 8)
Do unto others, and split!
;D

This is DC again

Dag, I respect your beliefs, although  I find them a bit contradictory.  No matter - they are your religious beliefs and are therefore beyond debate.  But let me ask you this.  I DO NOT accept Christ as my personal savior or any other kind of savior.  I accept Jesus as a good and wise man who can serve as a guide (only a guide) to moral behavior.  I think, though, that I have led a fairly moral life.  In fact I think that even my x wife would say that I have treated her fairly and that she was at least as responsible for our split as I was (I would say more so - but that's another story).  So, I think that I can stand bewfore the pearly gates with as pure a heart as most mortals, and maybe purer than some, since I believe in, and practice "random acts of kindness and help".  So what's your read?


Well, you know I believe that the only thing that can get you into heaven is accepting the gift.  If you choose not to believe that, I respect that.  We will all figure out the truth one day for sure, until then we need to keep doing our best to stick with the path we have chosen for ourselves. 

A very popular bumper sticker/t-shirt in the 70s. 8)


You are correct, sir!
"I'M ONLY HERE FOR THE BEER"

Doesn't Revelations say that only those whose names are recorded in the Book of Life will be saved, and the rest cast into the Lake of Fire? To me that sounds like the fate of our souls has already been predetermined. Therefore, you were either born righteous and bound for Heaven, or you're not.


Not exactly.  Names recorded in the Book of Life refer to those who are predestinated to be saved.  According to God, no one is born righteous and all are sinners.  But before time, God had already chosen those whom he would save.  Now, many "Bible-believers" don't like this doctrine (even though it's THERE) because they're looking at it from the perspective that "You're not allowed to be saved if you're not one of the elect."  The thing is, nobody can know just who the elect are, unless you have been saved and then you know that you are one.  In Revelation it says that "Whosoever will may come..."  The elect are the ones who WILL come, the ones who WANT to be save.  Those who aren't, will not come because their heart will be hardened.

That is the exactly verse I was thinking of when I made my post. It's actually a pretty ambiguous line, but the way I read it, you're either in the Book right from the start, or you're not, and if THAT'S the case it doesn't matter what you do.


Another thing...being saved isn't about a person DOING anything...It's about having faith that Christ died for YOU, personally. 
Ephesians 2: 8 & 9- "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.  Not of works lest any man shold boast"

Another thing...being saved isn't about a person DOING anything...It's about having faith that Christ died for YOU, personally. 
Ephesians 2: 8 & 9- "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.  Not of works lest any man shold boast"


I totally agree!  Very well put.

Well, you know I believe that the only thing that can get you into heaven is accepting the gift.  If you choose not to believe that, I respect that.  We will all figure out the truth one day for sure, until then we need to keep doing our best to stick with the path we have chosen for ourselves.   



I agree with that. No one REALLY knows until we leave this Earth and then of course, it is too late. We all may be right, we all maybe wrong. I think that religion is  VERY personal and everyone must choose for themselves what they believe. I have heard many Christians-and it doesn't matter what denomination they belong to, say, "I believe this but I don't believe that which my church preaches."  I don't think anyone, (individual or a church) call tell anyone what TO believe. It has to come from within. As Joseph Campbell once said, "Follow your bliss".




Cat

Personally, I don't think it matters what you believe or don't believe.  I believe it's solely based on your deeds and whether or not you feel true remorse for the wrongs you've done.  IMO, "being saved" gets you a first-class ticket to the door (the rest go coach ;D),

What makes you think that?

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


but there are many who are "saved" who are truly horrible people.

Then maybe they aren't really "saved".



Just as there are truly wonderful people who haven't been saved.  This partially comes from my Catholic upbringing as none of us are "saved", but I'm sure there are more than a couple of Catholics up there ;)

The Bible teaches that no one is "good enough" to get in on their own merit. Even the most noble people on earth have sinned, right?

I agree with that. No one REALLY knows until we leave this Earth and then of course, it is too late. We all may be right, we all maybe wrong. I think that religion is  VERY personal and everyone must choose for themselves what they believe. I have heard many Christians-and it doesn't matter what denomination they belong to, say, "I believe this but I don't believe that which my church preaches."  I don't think anyone, (individual or a church) call tell anyone what TO believe. It has to come from within. As Joseph Campbell once said, "Follow your bliss".

Cat


Some churches or some people within churches believe in things which either aren't in the Bible, or it's taking passages out of context.  
For example, there are some churches that don't let woman wear pants...EVER.  It's not in the Bible, but I guess some people think it makes them more righteous.  I think that should just be a personal/family decision.  Another thing is that some people take the verse about women covering their heads literally, so they think a woman must ALWAYS wear a hat/cap/bonnet/veil/etc.  The thing is, in that area in that time, women wearing a head covering was the equivalent to today's ring on the left hand...it was to show that she was married or that she was under a man's authority; it was a CUSTOM of the day.  I personally find it silly that people here do that because, well nobody here is gonna see a lady wearing a hat and say "Oh, darn, she must be married."

Because I've been told by many "born again Christians" that I'm not going to Heaven because I'm Catholic and being "baptized" at birth doesn't make you "saved".

I never said baptism at birth saves anyone. The Bible doesn't say that, either. Most Baptists don't believe that baptism is what saves; it's just something people are expected to do after they are saved (just as they are expected to do good works and be "Christlike").


I also don't believe that God would exclude someone who has never gotten the chance TO be "saved" (such as third world country inhabitants who live in their own little world and have never even heard of God or Jesus).

Why don't you believe that? Because it doesn't seem fair? Do you have anything in the Bible to back that up, or do you think it's possible to know more about God than what is said in the Bible?


I never said they didn't.  But, there are also those who don't believe in God who have done wondrous acts.  Are you saying that they don't "deserve" to be in Heaven?

The Bible says no one deserves to be in Heaven.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

"All" means "even the most wonderful person in the world" -- doesn't it?

As Joseph Campbell once said, "Follow your bliss".

Cat


He's one of my heroes. R.I.P. :\'(

He's one of my heroes. R.I.P. :\'(



Mine, too. The world lost a great man.  :\'(




Cat

I don't think anyone, (individual or a church) call tell anyone what TO believe. It has to come from within. As Joseph Campbell once said, "Follow your bliss".

From within yourself, or from within the Bible? If God says that you're inherently corrupted, how can you trust what's within?

Doesn't the Bible say the devil offers illusions of bliss?



The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (NLT, Romans 2:12-16) * this seems to me to say that whether or not we believe, we will be judged by God

Certainly, but other Biblical accounts of the judgement indicate that while all will be judged, only some will be forgiven.

From within yourself, or from within the Bible? If God says that you're inherently corrupted, how can you trust what's within?

Doesn't the Bible say the devil offers illusions of bliss?




It HAS to come from within yourself. You really can't believe what the Bible says unless there is a little voice inside of you telling you to believe it. Same with any other belief.


Personally, I don't believe IN the Bible. I believe it is an ancent text of myths with maybe a little historical aspect to it. Have I read it? Parts of it. But I am very interested in religions-not just Christianity-there are many, many more in this world then just the one. I have many books on different myths from all over the world and books on different religions like, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Native American religions, etc. While some of the stories may differ, the basic beliefs are very similar-there is a Creator, and most religions honor their Creator. How the Creator is honored differs. To me, there is no ONE way to honor the Creator, you honor him/her as you feel is right. That comes from within yourself. The Bible is basically a guide book, so to speak, as a way for Christians to honor the Creator.




Cat

From within yourself, or from within the Bible? If God says that you're inherently corrupted, how can you trust what's within?

Doesn't the Bible say the devil offers illusions of bliss?




Certainly, but other Biblical accounts of the judgement indicate that while all will be judged, only some will be forgiven.

That was my Puritan ancestors.  No bliss on Earth, you don't deserve it ye sinning wretches, bliss in heaven IF you ever get there.  Oh, and if you think you're saved, your probably damned.

  See, that's just it, one part of the bible says one thing, then another negates it:

(Romans 10:13) For whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved
(Matthew 7:21) Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven.

So, which is it?  Romans says that everyone will be saved, then Matthew says they won't?  Who's right?


Ok, so Romans 10:13 says "For whosoever shal call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."....Try reading the next verse as well:  "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?..."    The passage in Matthew, he's basically saying that just by saying some prayer doesn't make you saved.  God must give you the faith to trust in the Lord and then you will truly call on His name.