I have said this in the old board, but some people seem to have forgotten it.  SO I will post it again.

I consider myself color blind.  I do not care about race.

I do not care if somebody is oppressed because they are black (red, yellow, white).  All I care about is if they are oppressed.  Period.  I do not care about race in any way.  To me, all people are people.  Period.

Now I have been accused of being a raceist 2 times while I was in the military.  Ironically, both times I was accused of being raceist against Hispanics.  And both times, was after I had to bring somebody up on charges.

One incident was after I caught 2 guys who had broken into a building they were supposed to be guarding.  They broke in so they could take a nap out of the rain.  The second time was when I asked somebody to do something, and he told me to do something I am not anatomically able to do.  I then rephrased my request as an order, and he tried to take a swing at me.

Both times, they requested lawyers and filed charges of raceism against me.  Both times, it was thrown out before it got anywhere.  Luckily, in the military you have to have more then just a scumbag's say-so.

Luckily, the first incident occured about 6 months after I got married.  THe second time was after my son was born.  I say luckily, because my wife was born and raised in Argentina.

I am glad that military lawyers were able to see how silly it was to claim I was raceist against Hispanics, when I was married to one, and my son is also Hispanic.  But that did not stop people from making the claim.  And I admit that there are raceist people out there.  In fact, I work with a few.

Everybody at my work now knows not to say raceist things around me.  I will turn and walk away from them.  In fact, I will not even talk to them for 20 minutes to 2 hours after I hear them saying "the N word" or some other such garbage.  I will simply act like they are not there.  Is rather effective, because I treat them how I see them at that time, as nothing.

Raceism disgusts me.  Even more so is people who throw the raceism word around all the time, whether it applies or not.  That is prejudging me, just as much as when a raceist assumes that something is true/not true just because of somebodies race.

I am proud of the fact that I do not care about race.  I view the world and judge people just as Dr. King wished.  I judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

I'm with you man!  Because I'm prejudiced against....racists.  People who think they can just assume stuff about people based on the color of their skin obviously can't be very rational about much anything else.

The thing that disturbs me most is that a lot of the racists I know are at CHURCH!  I was told that a long time ago, when there weren't any black people at my church, some of the men used to tell these really cruel racial jokes during PRAYER BREAKFAST!  And my brother said he remembers a time when the associate pastor was preaching and he said that "...more *n-words* need to get shot..."  That just sickens me how some who calls themself a Christian can talk like that. 

Also all these old-school people think that interracial dating/marriage is SUCH A SIN!  One guy said he was "so disappointed in Bob Jones University" when he heard they dropped their interracial dating policy.......HELLO!!! That has ABSOLUTELY NO BIBLICAL BASIS!!!  The college adopted that policy WAY BACK IN THE DAY and it was only because a Middle-Eastern family tried to sue the school because they're daughter got married to a white guy.
Oh well, some people argue that if people of two different races marry and have kids, the children won't know what to identify themselves as.....um...DUH!  Try half and half? They don't have to PICK one or the other.

Oh well, some people argue that if people of two different races marry and have kids, the children won't know what to identify themselves as.....um...DUH!  Try half and half? They don't have to PICK one or the other.


How about a race that everybody else in the world throws on us, American?

I am your typical Heinz-57 American.  I have so many races in my background, that I could never count them all.  But I only identify myself as American.

I am not Irish-American, Scottish-American, German-Aaerican, Native-American, or French-American.  My son does not consider himself Argentinian-American or Hispanic (unless he is FORCED to claim that status).  He is simply an American.

In fact, my ex-wife finds it funny that she is classified as "Hispanic", while all of her ancestors come from France and Spain. In fact,  I am darker then she is!  She still considers herself white, while everybody else considers her "Hispanic".

Hyphenating race to me just makes people different.  And that is not how I view our nation.  We are not any one race, but an amalgamation of the best from everywhere.  I often say we are the best of the rejects from everywhere else.  We rejects all came together to make our own nation, where that does not matter.

It is OK to be proud of your heritage.  I go to Scottish Games on occasion.  But I look to my present and future to set my path in life, not the past of my ancestors which I have no control over.

As for raceists at a Church, that is simply disgusting.  I would not go to a church like that.  And if it is part of a large denomination, then you should go to their governing body and register a complaint.  If the elders and preacher condone such behavior, I would say it is time for the higher authority in the Church to clean house.

As for raceists at a Church, that is simply disgusting.  I would not go to a church like that.  And if it is part of a large denomination, then you should go to their governing body and register a complaint.  If the elders and preacher condone such behavior, I would say it is time for the higher authority in the Church to clean house.


It is an independent church, meaning one local church that governs itself.  We do have a new pastor now and he's younger, but the associate is still there.  There are now more people of different races and I'm glad because then people will at least watch their mouth.  I know some people are still think the wrong things sometimes, but I am seeing them be kind to others.  And if anyone had ever complained if I had brought my black boyfriend to church, well I'd just have to point how how hypocritical they are, since our youth leader is a white guy and he's married to an Asian woman, and they are a very good Christian family.  I think it's good they're there cuz then some of the old-school people can see that "Oh, I guess interracial marriage isn't so bad after all..."

Funny story:

The other day, I went to this fast-food restaurant with my boyfriend and we got some hamburgers and fries... and we needed ketchup. And for whatever reason, we both went up to the counter - and the girl who finally came over to help us didn't realize we were together. (Okay, there was maybe 2 feet between us because I was trying to poke my head around the counter to find the ketchup 'cause they were taking too long.) She was like, "Oh, are you --? Well, she was over there ..." Anyway, it kinda pissed off my (non-white) boyfriend... guess we didn't quite look like a couple. :P

Funny story:

The other day, I went to this fast-food restaurant with my boyfriend and we got some hamburgers and fries... and we needed ketchup. And for whatever reason, we both went up to the counter - and the girl who finally came over to help us didn't realize we were together. (Okay, there was maybe 2 feet between us because I was trying to poke my head around the counter to find the ketchup 'cause they were taking too long.) She was like, "Oh, are you --? Well, she was over there ..." Anyway, it kinda pissed off my (non-white) boyfriend... guess we didn't quite look like a couple. :P


Becca told me about a time yall went out to eat and the waitress was talking to your bf very slowly, to make sure he could understand.  And he got mad...or at least a little upset.

Well, anyway I wonder if not enough people realize that "whites" are discriminated against too.  There was this black girl on my hall at school who, everytime we were in the bathroom (community bathrooms suck!) she was on her cellphone and I always heard  "Man it was some WHITE dude/girl..." Was it really necessary to point out what they are?
And the other day I was hanging out with my friend from Bangladesh.  He had to go stop at this little Bangla convenience store and the woman inside just glared at me the whole time. 

LOL. Sad thing is, he has to talk slowly sometimes, 'cause people don't understand (or don't want to make an effort to understand) his (rather mild) accent.

And the other day I was hanging out with my friend from Bangladesh.  He had to go stop at this little Bangla convenience store and the woman inside just glared at me the whole time.

Maybe she was just surprised. ;)

As most people know, my husband is half Puerto Rican (his father is of German decent). His cousin (on his mother's side) is also married to a "white woman." The two of them went into Dennys one time and they were basically igorned. This was in California.  >:(  We don't "do" Dennys anymore.




Cat

I'm sick of partisan Republicans making up this paranoid narrative about liberals benefiting from racism.  It's completely bogus, especially in the face of what the Republicans did in the 2000 election.

Racism is alive and sick in America, and it isn't some 'tards in white sheets who are perpetuating it.

The only prejudice I have is against morons. 

I can't stand any type of racism.  A person is not their skin color, a person is who is inside. 

I have been accused of being racist because I am white and live in Utah where there aren't alot of African Americans.  (the town I grew up in had one family.  The main minority population in Utah are Asian and Hispanic) It hurt being told to my face that I must be racist because of where I was raised.  I was raised not to care about color.  Too many people judge by the color of skin and it needs to stop.

     I used to drive a semi cross-country and when I was in the South, I don't think I ever saw one single white person working in a fast-food restaurant. All the crews were all African-Americans. I don't know if white Southerners think that this kind of work is beneath them or something, but if anyone here is from that region I was wondering if they could explain that to me.
 

The only prejudice I have is against morons. 

I can't stand any type of racism.  A person is not their skin color, a person is who is inside. 

I have been accused of being racist because I am white and live in Utah where there aren't alot of African Americans.  (the town I grew up in had one family.  The main minority population in Utah are Asian and Hispanic) It hurt being told to my face that I must be racist because of where I was raised.  I was raised not to care about color.  Too many people judge by the color of skin and it needs to stop.


I think my mom is oblivously racist.  She's one of those people who always has to mention someone's race even when it has nothing to do with anything.  And when we go to eat at restaurants on the "poor side of town" she always has to make some comment like the people there "must be on welfare..."  I keep telling her she needs to stop.
The way someone is brought up is no excuse for being racist.  My roommate my 1st semester was ALWAYS making very rude racial jokes, and always did it around me and teased me because my boyfriend was black.  Then she'd say "Sorry, I was just brought up that way..."  >:(

So far, this conversation has focused on members'ack of person prejudice, which I believe is totally sincere and which I applaude.  Might I suggest, though, that there is a differance between prejudice and racism.  Prejudice has to do with who you chose to assosiate with (I am prejudiced against fundamentalist Christians, am reluctant to talk to them because we sleak different languages, and so avoid them whenever possible - although there was 1 cute one when I was a teaching assistant who apparantly wanted to violate a few of the Commandments with me...I declined!).  Racism has to do with the disadvantages built into the system that denies people, usually of color, the advantages that those of us who can pass as "white" usually get. 

And I'm not denying that there is "reverse racism".  Apparently, when I interviewed at Castleton, some thought that I would be darker than I am.  In fact, one said something like "we thought you were black", or "we would have prefered if you were black" (this was 20 years ago mind, so memory isn't as clear as I might like).

Regardeless, race is a fundfamental issue for this country.  I look forward to a "colorblind" day, but it will take more than just the good intentions and good actions of you all and other average folks to end the legacy of racism that is the heratage of the U.S.  Your personal conquests of racial prejudice are admirable, are a start, and I applaude them.  The deeper, systematic racism remains to be confronted.

And talking about not being "racist", as a Puerto Rican man, I married a white woman, twice.  Slumming?  No offence, its just all in your point of view.

prejudice and racism.  Prejudice has to do with who you chose to assosiate with (I am prejudiced against fundamentalist Christians, am reluctant to talk to them because we sleak different languages, and so avoid them whenever possible - although there was 1 cute one when I was a teaching assistant who apparantly wanted to violate a few of the Commandments with me...I declined!). 

You just couldn't do it could you?  All Christians are fundamentalist....what was that ''i'' word?

     I used to drive a semi cross-country and when I was in the South, I don't think I ever saw one single white person working in a fast-food restaurant. All the crews were all African-Americans. I don't know if white Southerners think that this kind of work is beneath them or something, but if anyone here is from that region I was wondering if they could explain that to me.
 


I haven't noticed...... ::)


Seriously i'm glad someone pointed this out.  But with a high drop-out can you blame them.  I'm glad people of all races work in fast food, i'd rather them doing that then living on unemployment.

I haven't noticed...... ::)


Seriously i'm glad someone pointed this out.  But with a high drop-out can you blame them.  I'm glad people of all races work in fast food, i'd rather them doing that then living on unemployment.

Why is the drop-out rate for African Americans so high?

I have to admit, this week I have been applauding one of my idols when I was growing up, Bill Cosby.

Dr. Cosby stood up at a Brown Vs. Board Of Education this week, and really tore into the aspects of the "Black Community" that he feels is dragging them down.

Blacks useing the "N word" about each other and themselves, not speaking English, unwed mothers, abscent fathers, drugs, and crime are all things he blasted.  And again at a Rainbow-PUSH dinner, he continued his castigation.

I always thought that he was a real man, and a gentleman.  In the early days of his career, he tried to spread himself between teaching (he was a Junior High teacher) and his comedy career.  I remember my parents going to see him in Vegas, which he did every summer during the school break.  It was only when his career took off to the point that he could not do both that he stopped teaching.

His oldest son Ennis was also involved in education when he was murdered several years ago.  And I applaud him for making this stance.  I only hope he is not blasted to harshly by other blacks for his needed opinions.

http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/5425/1/221

Living in Chicago, there have been countless stories on this.  What amazes me is that there are African Americans who are chastizing him because he dared to speak out against "his people". ::)


I agree.  And to me, Bill Cosby is somebody well worth idolizing.

His shows are classics.  Even skits he did 30+ years ago are as funny now as they were when they were first performed.  He also does not swear.  ALL of his bits are clean, and able to be enjoyed by people of any age.

I remember when Eddie Murphy lashed out at him 20 years ago.  When I first saw Eddie on SNL, I thought he was fantastic.  Then I heard him swearing and cussing like Richard Pryor, and my first thought was "Eddie, you don't need to be like this".  Obviously he later realized this, because his popularity is now back where it was 20 years ago.  More kids know of him as "Donkey" then anything else.

I often think that is part of the problem.  Bill is a self-made man, who worked his way through college, then was a successful teacher.  His comedy is clean and family oriented.  I guess among the "thug" element, he is just not cool.

He didn't say that, he said "fundamentalist Christians" meaning (IMO) "those Christians who are 'fundamentalists' "  It's called an adjective and it defines what type of Christians of which he speaks.  I'm sure he associates with some Christians, just not the fundamentalist ones.



I'm sure DC will respond to this himself but you right that he does associate with Christians. In fact, there are many in his family as well as mine. Being a Christian does not make one a "fundamentalist".



Cat

You just couldn't do it could you?  All Christians are fundamentalist....what was that ''i'' word?


Those who responded to this are correct.  I never said that ALL Christians are "fundamentalists".  I used the word as an adjective modifying (ergo limiting) the term "Christian", as you well know.  If fact, some of my best friend are Christian.  Seems you have mastered the tactic of the right wing media in misrepresenting what people say.  I think you owe me an apology.

I haven't noticed...... ::)


Seriously i'm glad someone pointed this out.  But with a high drop-out can you blame them.  I'm glad people of all races work in fast food, i'd rather them doing that then living on unemployment.


You hadn't noticed that in the south most "servers" are people of color?  I guess I'm not surprised.

During the late 19th Century and early 20th the drop out rate was high for all working class people because their families needed the $$$ to get by.  That is what people of color face today.  Cheeze, it effects lots of working class families who need 2 or 3 incomes, or more, to get by.  The middle class is shrinking, the poor are increasing, and the rich want "just one more dance".  Villified as he was by the right in his own day, FDR understood that to save the system, it had to improve the standard oif living of at least some of the people who do the work that creates the wealth of society.  So we got the National Labor Relations Act and Social Security.  Neocons are undermining that "social safty net" as weak as it already is.  As under attack as the working class is, minorities are under a greater attack.  But the ball can't go on forever.

I think you owe me an apology.


You are right, I do.  I am sorry.

I have said this in the old board, but some people seem to have forgotten it.  SO I will post it again.

I consider myself color blind.  I do not care about race.

I do not care if somebody is oppressed because they are black (red, yellow, white).  All I care about is if they are oppressed.  Period.  I do not care about race in any way.  To me, all people are people.  Period.

Now I have been accused of being a raceist 2 times while I was in the military.  Ironically, both times I was accused of being raceist against Hispanics.  And both times, was after I had to bring somebody up on charges.

One incident was after I caught 2 guys who had broken into a building they were supposed to be guarding.  They broke in so they could take a nap out of the rain.  The second time was when I asked somebody to do something, and he told me to do something I am not anatomically able to do.  I then rephrased my request as an order, and he tried to take a swing at me.

Both times, they requested lawyers and filed charges of raceism against me.  Both times, it was thrown out before it got anywhere.  Luckily, in the military you have to have more then just a scumbag's say-so.

Luckily, the first incident occured about 6 months after I got married.  THe second time was after my son was born.  I say luckily, because my wife was born and raised in Argentina.

I am glad that military lawyers were able to see how silly it was to claim I was raceist against Hispanics, when I was married to one, and my son is also Hispanic.  But that did not stop people from making the claim.  And I admit that there are raceist people out there.  In fact, I work with a few.

Everybody at my work now knows not to say raceist things around me.  I will turn and walk away from them.  In fact, I will not even talk to them for 20 minutes to 2 hours after I hear them saying "the N word" or some other such garbage.  I will simply act like they are not there.  Is rather effective, because I treat them how I see them at that time, as nothing.

Raceism disgusts me.  Even more so is people who throw the raceism word around all the time, whether it applies or not.  That is prejudging me, just as much as when a raceist assumes that something is true/not true just because of somebodies race.

I am proud of the fact that I do not care about race.  I view the world and judge people just as Dr. King wished.  I judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.


I don't believe the color thing for a minute.  Let me ask you this, say you got mugged and while talking to the police about it they ask you to describe the person and what race was he.  Are you saying you would say something like ''I don't know, I don't see color, it was just a person.  There is only one race the human race.''

You are right, I do.  I am sorry.


Accepted, thanks.

I don't believe the color thing for a minute.  Let me ask you this, say you got mugged and while talking to the police about it they ask you to describe the person and what race was he.  Are you saying you would say something like ''I don't know, I don't see color, it was just a person.  There is only one race the human race.''


Obviously, in this situation, one would give as complete a description as possible.  Equally obvious is that fact that we all have different skin colors.  But you might be interested in the fact that the genetic differences between, say Sweedes and Sudanese are less than the genetic differences between Sweedes and Sweedes and Sudanese and Sudanese.  Race is a social construct, not a biological one.  In fact, biologically, we ARE one race.

You hadn't noticed that in the south most "servers" are people of color?  I guess I'm not surprised.

During the late 19th Century and early 20th the drop out rate was high for all working class people because their families needed the $$$ to get by.  That is what people of color face today.  Cheeze, it effects lots of working class families who need 2 or 3 incomes, or more, to get by.  The middle class is shrinking, the poor are increasing, and the rich want "just one more dance".  Villified as he was by the right in his own day, FDR understood that to save the system, it had to improve the standard oif living of at least some of the people who do the work that creates the wealth of society.  So we got the National Labor Relations Act and Social Security.  Neocons are undermining that "social safty net" as weak as it already is.  As under attack as the working class is, minorities are under a greater attack.  But the ball can't go on forever.

Members of my family travelling in the south noted that kitchen help and busboys were almost exclusively of color.  Hosts and waitstaff were almost exclusively white.  
Frankly, I'm tired of hearing conservatives say there's no more racism in America.  Denying racism in America should be treated akin to denying the Holocaust.  What's worse is the way conservatives play the craven tactic of blaming those who try to remedy the problems of racism of perpetuating the issue.  If it weren't for pesky liberals, there would be no racism, goes the thinking.
Don Carlos is correct about the shrinking middle class.  The natural order of things in the history of civilization has been a tiny minority at the top controlling the wealth, and a vast underclass desperately scrambling to stay alive.
The "middle class" is a socialist construct brought about by government regulation and organized labor.  The only reason why the Right woos the "middle class" is because the plutocracy needs a mandate from the masses to carry on its evil deeds.  Thus, the Republican party charms the middle class voters the way Ted Bundy charms a college girl.  Pretty soon, though, the plutocracy will gain enough power to outgrow this "democracy" ruse.

Members of my family travelling in the south noted that kitchen help and busboys were almost exclusively of color.  Hosts and waitstaff were almost exclusively white.  
Frankly, I'm tired of hearing conservatives say there's no more racism in America.  Denying racism in America should be treated akin to denying the Holocaust.  What's worse is the way conservatives play the craven tactic of blaming those who try to remedy the problems of racism of perpetuating the issue.  If it weren't for pesky liberals, there would be no racism, goes the thinking.
Don Carlos is correct about the shrinking middle class.  The natural order of things in the history of civilization has been a tiny minority at the top controlling the wealth, and a vast underclass desperately scrambling to stay alive.
The "middle class" is a socialist construct brought about by government regulation and organized labor.  The only reason why the Right woos the "middle class" is because the plutocracy needs a mandate from the masses to carry on its evil deeds.  Thus, the Republican party charms the middle class voters the way Ted Bundy charms a college girl.  Pretty soon, though, the plutocracy will gain enough power to outgrow this "democracy" ruse.


Unless people wake up, that's where we are heading, to hell in a hand basket.

I'm really glad this topic has been raised, because I think that one of America's biggest problems is that we don't just sit down and really talk to each other enough. When I was in the Army, there was an black man in my unit with whom I would discuss racial issues with, and we had some really great conversations. He really opened my eyes to a lot of things.  I think that most people of all races sidestep these issues for fear of offending each other (I am guilty of this myself), and I believe our society is suffering because of this.
   I just read Bill Cosby's most recent comments, and while what he said was pretty harsh, it was also true, and it really needed to be said. All Americans, no matter what race they may be, need to realize that this is a two-way street, and we really need to start working together to solve our problems rather than pointing fingers and blaming each other.

I don't believe the color thing for a minute.  Let me ask you this, say you got mugged and while talking to the police about it they ask you to describe the person and what race was he.  Are you saying you would say something like ''I don't know, I don't see color, it was just a person.  There is only one race the human race.''


Now we are not talking about "People", but about a "Person".

I remember my dad had his van broken into in 1982.  One of his co-workers told him that he saw 2 Hispanics hanging around the parking lot, and they did not work for the company.  One of his other co-workers busted in and said "So they are thieves, because they are Hispanic?"

My dad's friend said no, that he is simply saying 2 people who did not work there were in the parking lot, and they happened to be Hispanic.

I dated a gal several years ago, and made the mistake of moving to Conneticut for 3 months to live with her.  I did not realize how she was until I said I was going to visit a used bookstore in a neighboring town.

When I asked for the directions to go there, she said "You do not want to go there, that is a Puerto Rican neighborhood."  I gave her a blank stare, and said "so what".  She then informed me that people like "us" (meaning White) did not go into "those" areas.  Needless to say, I went there anyways, and did not have any problems at all.

When I say I am colorblind to people's race, that means people as people.  When it comes to a PERSON, a single individual, the race just does not matter to me.  I have lived in both Compton, Watts, and Inglewood, which are largely black ghettos.  I lived in Garden Grove, which is a Vietnamese area.  My first job in Alabama was as a DJ at a club where 98% of the clients were black.  My ex-wife and my son are Hispanic.  These are awefully strange places for me to live and work, if I am this Republican Raceist that so many seem to want to believe me to be.

When I see a scumbag, I just see a scumbag.  When I see a great person, I see a great person.  Their color means nothing in that in any way, shape, or form.

we really need to start working together to solve our problems rather than pointing fingers and blaming each other.


Certainly, but at the same time we need to understand that the playing fielf is far from level.  Should it ever become level, then we "white" people can say "go for it" until it is level we need to say something else, like "we recognize the disability that hundreds of years of slavery and Jim Crow have saddled you with, and we want to make amends".  I don't hear that on this thread.  Working together, it seems to me, implies a common goal.  I'm not sure that elite white America has the goal of "dark" equality in mind.  Note!  This is in reference to institutional racism, not personal prejudice.  I also admire Cos, I just question his understanding of the deeper issues, or his willingness to confront them.

I'm really glad this topic has been raised, because I think that one of America's biggest problems is that we don't just sit down and really talk to each other enough. When I was in the Army, there was an black man in my unit with whom I would discuss racial issues with, and we had some really great conversations. He really opened my eyes to a lot of things.  I think that most people of all races sidestep these issues for fear of offending each other (I am guilty of this myself), and I believe our society is suffering because of this.
   I just read Bill Cosby's most recent comments, and while what he said was pretty harsh, it was also true, and it really needed to be said. All Americans, no matter what race they may be, need to realize that this is a two-way street, and we really need to start working together to solve our problems rather than pointing fingers and blaming each other.


A lot of what Cosby is saying is right on.  The only thing that bugs me is that his message for African Americans to take charge of their own destiny is getting co-opted by "The Man."  The Man likes Cosby's message because he can twist it into more propaganda against social programs, affirmative action, and other remedies to racism.  I haven't heard Cosby try to distinguish his point of view from that of the conservative white establishment.  I wish he would.

The same conservative white establishment has used he implimentation of social welfare and affirmative action programs to stir up even more racial antagonism.  It's easy to play poor whites off agains poor minorities to distract them from the fact that they're both being screwed over by the super-rich.

America has to finally face the big C word: Class.  The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King talked about "race" for ten years and became a national icon.  He talked about "class" for five weeks and got shot dead.

The same conservative white establishment has used he implimentation of social welfare and affirmative action programs to stir up even more racial antagonism.  It's easy to play poor whites off agains poor minorities to distract them from the fact that they're both being screwed over by the super-rich.
Exactly. I've thought for a long time that the powers that be have been using the media to stir up fear and mistrust between the races. A while ago, I heard a Chris Rock comedy tape where he said that it p*sses him off that every time there is a story involving race on the news, they always try to find the scummiest-looking black person possible to interview. And it's true.

if I am this Republican Raceist that so many seem to want to believe me to be.

When I see a scumbag, I just see a scumbag.  When I see a great person, I see a great person.  Their color means nothing in that in any way, shape, or form.


I hope you are not suggesting that I implied or suggested that you were racist, nor do I recall anyone else making that suggestion.  Further, I am quite willing to belive that you are not prejudiced.

But I can't emphasise enough that, as I said above, there is a difference bewteen racims and prejudice.  Racism is institutional, as in preventing Florida blacks from voting.  Prejudice has to do with our personal likes and dislikes.  Frankly, I don't really care if some people don't like me because I'm Puerto Rican, its their lose.  They are missing out on some great food and music - and yes, I got that latin rythem.  Its institutional limitations, as when prejudice is combined with power that equate to racism.  If you don't want to associate with .... who cares?  If they are last hired and first fired from the most menial jobs, than it becomes a problem.

The same conservative white establishment has used he implimentation of social welfare and affirmative action programs to stir up even more racial antagonism.  It's easy to play poor whites off agains poor minorities to distract them from the fact that they're both being screwed over by the super-rich.

America has to finally face the big C word: Class.  The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King talked about "race" for ten years and became a national icon.  He talked about "class" for five weeks and got shot dead.


"Divid and conquor" has been the establishment strategy for years.  Early in this Century employers hired through agents, and advertized for various specific ethnic groups to bring European animosities, like between Greeks and Turks etc, into the workplace to blunt labor solidarity.  And we can clearly see politicians today doing much the same thing with "the race card". 

How long will it take for poor folk to wake up to the class divisions you point to?  I'm now reading a biography of Mother Jones, the union organized of the early 20th Century.  She faced the same problems.  When will we ever learn?

Let me add to my last post by giving you a good example of my own personal experiences with race and the media. As far back as I can remember, it seemed like every night on the evening news I was bombarded with images of Palestinians rioting in the occupied territories, Iranians burning American flags and holding up signs that said "Death To America," and the scowling face of the Ayatollah Khomeni. I became conditioned to think of Arabs and Muslims as being mean and angry and hateful. So when I was in my mid-20's, I was working at the Kawasaki plant here in town and on one of the assembly lines I worked alongside a couple of Iraqis. I had never really met anyone of Arabic descent before. I was surprised not only at how nice these guys were, but what really caught me off guard was that there was one guy in particular who was every bit as much of a goofball as I am, and we'd yuk it up quite a bit. And I felt like such a fool for just assuming things about an entire group of people. Even now, especially after 9/11, whenever I see an Arab there's a little part of me that thinks, "What if?" And it sucks and I hate feeling that way but I can't help it. It must be hell to be a Muslim in this country right now. A man I work with who emigrated here from Iraq was visiting the zoo in Omaha about two weeks ago, and the police received an anonymous "tip" that he was "prowling" vehicles in the parking lot, so they detained him and his wife and her father for over two hours for "questioning," and according to the paper he said the police were being quite rude about it. He actually had to call the FBI and get a hold of an agent who ran a background check on him after 9/11, and the agent had to drive out to the zoo and tell the cops that he was OK and that he wasn't a terrorist before they'd let him go. He has since filed a complaint against the Omaha Police Department in hopes of getting an apology and getting them to change the behavior of the officers. Apparently he has never had any problems with the police here in Lincoln.
     Aside from the victims of the September 11 attacks and their families, Arab-Americans have suffered the most fallout from this event. They must be putting up with a ton of crap, and I don't see how it can get any better for them anytime soon. I guess the best thing I can do is to fight through my own fears and suspicions and remember that the vast majority of them are decent, hard-working people just like anyone else.
      You know, as I said earlier, we are constantly being saturated with images of Arabs and Muslims as being hateful and violent.  I wonder...how do the Arab networks portray the average American?  What kinds of images of US are being beamed into THEIR living rooms night after night???

Let me add to my last post by giving you a good example of my own personal experiences with race and the media.

Your story, which I edited for brevity, is touching in terms of your willingness to face your own prejudices, and also revealing in terms of institutional racism.  There was a similar incident here in Vermont not long ago.  A black person deposited a small check at his bank, and was later stopped by cops.  Seems another bank patron thought he was casing the joint and called the cops, who never bothered to check with the bank.  Such is the pervasiveness of racism.  Thanks for your story.

You know, as I said earlier, we are constantly being saturated with images of Arabs and Muslims as being hateful and violent.  I wonder...how do the Arab networks portray the average American?  What kinds of images of US are being beamed into THEIR living rooms night after night???

Sad to say, but you're probably right to think that the majority of Arabs are getting a similar sort of anti-West (especially anti-American) propaganda as we are the other way round. 

Sad to say, but you're probably right to think that the majority of Arabs are getting a similar sort of anti-West (especially anti-American) propaganda as we are the other way round. 




When it comes to the Middle East, we need to be a bit historical.  With the exception of Iran (Persia) and Turk (the Ottoman Empire), all the current nations of that region were created as colonial protectorates following WWI.  None are "real" nations and those of Europe or the Americas are.  What we are seeing in all this are the racial manifestations of European Imperialism (and Yankee profiteering from it) cominh home to roost, in addition to later insults, like the CIA coup that installed the Shah and ended democracy in Iran in the 1950's.  I think I would hate "the west"
too if that were my legacy.  So when westerners turn their power against Muslims and Arabs in their midst, instead of finding ways to emiliorate the results of that continuing imperialism, they perpetuate the problem.  And what tool do the powerless have except their bodies? 

I would suggest that the Civil Rights Act was only approved because powerless black people were will to put their bodies on the line, and many, not just Martin, lost their lives in the cause (do the names Medgar Evers, or Emmit Till ring a bell?).

This is NOT a matter of how individuals feel about those who look different, its a question of power, of control of wealth, in terms of the Middle East, about OIL.  As the old miners' union song asked, "which side are you on boys?".

I am a cemetery buff and one day I was visiting a cemetery and there was a couple wandering around.  I had a guide book to the cemetery and we actually ended up at the same grave, so  asked them if they were interested in old cemeteries.  No, they were doing a genealogical thing and were looking up an ancestor,Louis Hayden, the grave we were standing at.  It just so happened that Louis Hayden was in the guide book,.  I asked them again if they were certain it was Louis Hayden they were looking for.  Yes, that was who they were looking for.  So I showed them his picture in the guide book.  They were mid-west Caucasians and it appeared to me they were taken aback to find that the ancestor they were looking for was a famous African American abolitionist.    They seemed fine with it and the fellow took alot of pictures of the grave, but I often wonder how the folks back home took it.

Mushroom, take a look (or a listen) to a Mexican comedian called Carlos Mencia. He has a provocative stand-point but makes his points quite clearly about how human beings interact with each other (esp. of different 'races'). As importantly, he is very funny. 'Take a joke America' is a nice piece of stand-up.  :)

I am a cemetery buff and one day I was visiting a cemetery and there was a couple wandering around.  I had a guide book to the cemetery and we actually ended up at the same grave, so  asked them if they were interested in old cemeteries.  No, they were doing a genealogical thing and were looking up an ancestor,Louis Hayden, the grave we were standing at.  It just so happened that Louis Hayden was in the guide book,.  I asked them again if they were certain it was Louis Hayden they were looking for.  Yes, that was who they were looking for.  So I showed them his picture in the guide book.  They were mid-west Caucasians and it appeared to me they were taken aback to find that the ancestor they were looking for was a famous African American abolitionist.    They seemed fine with it and the fellow took alot of pictures of the grave, but I often wonder how the folks back home took it.


I think there are a lot of folks who have "dark" people in their background.  I have a photo of my maternal grandmother, and 1 of my mother, that I show my students, asking them the "race" of these people.  They usually identify my grandmother as black and my mother as white, as they do me (except in the first semester, when they see my tan).  This demonstration confuses them, as it should.  The one thing we can all say (and which I said on the "race" question at my draft physical) is that we are human.  The rest is a social construct.

I used to live in a town called Wolverhampton in the Middle of England (called 'The Midlands' funny enough) and it had a lot of black (personally I don't like to say 'coloured' because, despite it sounding sensitive, someone said to me that you are generalising a person's identity) and Indian people.

I must confess, when I was young, I used to be quite racist (to the Indians) - I don't think it was intentional, I just thought I was being funny without realising I could have hurt them (I got a massive telling off from an Indian's big sister in my first year of senior school because of an offhand comment I made).

You live and learn don't you?  :)

I used to live in a town called Wolverhampton in the Middle of England (called 'The Midlands' funny enough) and it had a lot of black (personally I don't like to say 'coloured' because, despite it sounding sensitive, someone said to me that you are generalising a person's identity) and Indian people.

I must confess, when I was young, I used to be quite racist (to the Indians) - I don't think it was intentional, I just thought I was being funny without realising I could have hurt them (I got a massive telling off from an Indian's big sister in my first year of senior school because of an offhand comment I made).

You live and learn don't you?  :)



For me, it was even more complex.  I have lots of dark skinned (they would be called black) cousins both by birth and marriage.  I grew up with them, love them all, and have always felt comfortable with my Lationo brothers and sisters regardless of the color of their skin.  But as a kid and young adult, I was never comfortable around "black" people, ie non-lationos.  This came to puzzle me.  Then I remembered something that happened when I was, maybe 5 or 6.  On a ride with Dad's mom and grandpa, we stopped for ice cream.  I went to drink from a water fountain, the kind with that arched metal thiggy over that water.  Grandma said not to touch it since we didn't know what BLACK person might have.  So the fear of black people was implanted, and that little time bomb in my subconscious just ticked away.  My dark but latino relatives and friends were segregated into the "good dark people" while "anglo-blacks" were dangerous.

Then I  actually met a few.  Dad was a foreman at a small factory, and one of his workers, Mr Laws, invited my family to a church social.  We went.  Mr Laws, I though, was a most kind and nice man.  His family was very nice.  His oldest daughter, my age, was VERY attractive.  And I began to wonder about my feelings.  Oh, if you haven't gotten it, the Laws family were black.  I can't remember how, or why, but somehow, that incident with my grandmother came into my memory, and I was able to difuse that horrible, racist time bomb planted in my head so long ago.  I never did date Mr Laws lovely daughter, and I must say I regret not getting to know her.  My lose due to my grandmother's stupid prejudice.  Had we hit it off, I'm sure our rainbow kids would have been knockouts, in every way.

We all must find those "time bombs" of prejudice hidden in our minds and confront them.  Then, we must all recognize and fight the institutional racism embedded in our society.  For a time, I think being color blind means recocnizing the barriars that people of color have to face on a daily basis in our society.

I might add that even though most people see me as white, I have been called a "spic".  I guess is becoose we latinos no speke de eeeglish de way jue like.  That was a long time ago, but I still remember.  The kid who did it got a black eye and I got sent home from school.  You don't mess with Don Carlos.

We all must find those "time bombs" of prejudice hidden in our minds and confront them.  Then, we must all recognize and fight the institutional racism embedded in our society.  For a time, I think being color blind means recocnizing the barriars that people of color have to face on a daily basis in our society.


That is very inspirational, Carlos. To be perfectly honest, I thought I was going to hear chants of 'Bobby the racist' but I was not really. I've just got a stupid and ignorant sense of humour. I didn't want to come onto the thread saying 'you know what I hate racists' because I didn't know if I was a subliminal one or not. I would never called anyone a Spik (have no idea what it means) or Paki and don't even think like that so I guess I'm alright.  ;D

That is very inspirational, Carlos. To be perfectly honest, I thought I was going to hear chants of 'Bobby the racist' but I was not really. I've just got a stupid and ignorant sense of humour. I didn't want to come onto the thread saying 'you know what I hate racists' because I didn't know if I was a subliminal one or not. I would never called anyone a Spik (have no idea what it means) or Paki and don't even think like that so I guess I'm alright.  ;D




Lots of people, I think, have "picked up" prejudices that they don't understand and that are subrational.  Since I'v been there, I am very carefull about who I call racist.  I might use the word "ignorant" in some cases for those who refuse to question their prejudices, but that does not apply to you.

The real problem, though, as I have said several times on this thread, and which no one has addressed, is the institutional racism built into the system itself.  I say again, I really don't care if someone calls me a "spik", or a dago  (derogitory for lationo).  What I care about is that these prejudices don't get translated in either public or private policy.

We all need to deal with our own demons.  If you personally can't bring youself to see some other group as ok, for whatever reason, ok.  Just don't impose those personal prejudices on institutions.  The first is your lose, the second is the lose of others. 

By the way, this is not addressed to you personally.

The real problem, though, as I have said several times on this thread, and which no one has addressed, is the institutional racism built into the system itself.  I say again, I really don't care if someone calls me a "spik", or a dago  (derogitory for lationo).  What I care about is that these prejudices don't get translated in either public or private policy.

I severely appreciate this and agree with you entirely, it's just one of those things we have no idea what to do about. Privately we can make the world a little better by leading by example but, like litterbugs, we can say to someone 'Hey, don't drop that.' but beyond that, what can normal Joe Public do?

We all need to deal with our own demons.  If you personally can't bring youself to see some other group as ok, for whatever reason, ok.  Just don't impose those personal prejudices on institutions.  The first is your lose, the second is the lose of others. 

By the way, this is not addressed to you personally.

I understand you are not addressing me personally, Carlos. To be perfectly honest, it's not a 'personal demon'. I have only got to know two Indians and perhaps my (would you call it 'prejudice'?) was based on those two Indians who severely disliked me.  :\'(

I know . . .  :-[

I severely appreciate this and agree with you entirely, it's just one of those things we have no idea what to do about. Privately we can make the world a little better by leading by example but, like litterbugs, we can say to someone 'Hey, don't drop that.' but beyond that, what can normal Joe Public do?



I understand you are not addressing me personally, Carlos. To be perfectly honest, it's not a 'personal demon'. I have only got to know two Indians and perhaps my (would you call it 'prejudice'?) was based on those two Indians who severely disliked me.  :\'(

I know . . .  :-[


Your right, it is a thorny problem, but I think there are lots of thing WE THE PEOPLE can do.  First, risk being called "politically correct" by not tolerating racist jokes or comments.  Second, encourage our employers to acctually engage in "affirmative action" (ie hire equally qualified disadvantaged groups) and give our political support to those who also support it.  Third, clean up our own acts.  Seek out and befreind minorities.  You might not like an individual you meet - drop him/her like a hot potato, but expand your circle of friend to include minorities.

You mentioned Indians.  I have an Indian colleague.  She's a real b**ch in many ways, but she is great, bright, analytical, insightful, an intellectual joy, and quite attractive.  I wouldn't want to live with her, but as a colleague, she's aces, and a great cook.

We hired another Indian who I put up for a few days while they were house hunting.  His wife broke a wine glass.  They went out and bought me a set of four to replace the broken 1.  They also left me a bottle of Glen Livit scotch. 

In grad school my x-wife had a bad experience typing for a Nigerian.  He was an a**hole.  I have met Nigerians, though, who are really super people.

You get the  idea

To me the idea of affirmative action and seeking out people to befriend based on race seems a bit insulting. Like, "Oh, look at the minorities, they're so fascinating!" the way you would regard quaint local artwork when visiting a foreign country.

Perhaps I've just been fortunate that my college career brought me in contact with people from a wide variety of backgrounds - I never needed to go out of my way to find someone of another race, and I was just open to those who were interested in getting to know me as a classmate and friend.

You mentioned Indians.  I have an Indian colleague.  She's a real b**ch in many ways, but she is great, bright, analytical, insightful, an intellectual joy, and quite attractive.  I wouldn't want to live with her, but as a colleague, she's aces, and a great cook.

We hired another Indian who I put up for a few days while they were house hunting.  His wife broke a wine glass.  They went out and bought me a set of four to replace the broken 1.  They also left me a bottle of Glen Livit scotch. 

In grad school my x-wife had a bad experience typing for a Nigerian.  He was an a**hole.  I have met Nigerians, though, who are really super people.

You get the  idea


Yes I understand everybody is different, Carlos. Even though I am not a racist, I just wanted to say what I said to avoid being a hypocrite. I don't treat hypocrites lightly because I have met a lot and they angered me so I go out of my way to not be like them.  :)

To me the idea of affirmative action and seeking out people to befriend based on race seems a bit insulting. Like, "Oh, look at the minorities, they're so fascinating!" the way you would regard quaint local artwork when visiting a foreign country.

Perhaps I've just been fortunate that my college career brought me in contact with people from a wide variety of backgrounds - I never needed to go out of my way to find someone of another race, and I was just open to those who were interested in getting to know me as a classmate and friend.


This is another interesting viewpoint, womberty.  :)

To me the idea of affirmative action and seeking out people to befriend based on race seems a bit insulting. Like, "Oh, look at the minorities, they're so fascinating!" the way you would regard quaint local artwork when visiting a foreign country.

Perhaps I've just been fortunate that my college career brought me in contact with people from a wide variety of backgrounds - I never needed to go out of my way to find someone of another race, and I was just open to those who were interested in getting to know me as a classmate and friend.


You can interpret my remarks in that vien if you wish, but I will say again that "most of my friends are white".  I'm not, and suspect that I got all of my teaching jobs, in part at least, because I am hispanic.  Equal opportunity refers to attempting to be color blind.  Affirmative action refers to giving a job to an equally qualified disadvantaged group member over a white, but the key is "equally qualified".  That is an attempt to redress the color barrier that still exists to a large extent in the "land of opportunity".

I've also been called a "cracker" on more occasions than I wish to count

That's a racial thing?  And all the time I thought those dudes were referring to the fact that I liked to eat a lot Saltines with my chicken soup!

In college, a good friend of mine (he was gay) was a brother in an all-black fraternity.  He wanted to take me to their formal.  They refused to sell him a ticket for me as I was white.  So, "minorities" need to expand their circles as well.

Interesting and, sad to say, you have a point....
Minorities in their own way suffer from dealing in prejudice just as confining and morally bankrupt as opposed on them by the majority.
Understand that (in my opinion) the prejudices of blacks towards other blacks are just as disruptive as any other type of prejudice.
Imagine the strife that goes on between the “lighter� skinned blacks, “redbones� and dark skinned blacks that is not even known or realized by whites. Blacks and other minorities have seen that white or close-to white appearance results in better treatment and acceptance by society.
And so they perpetrate ugly biases that seem only too ironic to be real.
Both my mom and dad attended Howard University in D.C. (all-black college) as did I for a short time. The stories they told me about the completely surreal amount of prejudice within the black student body there were unreal to me, until I attended my first semester.
I was saddened to see the sorority and frats on this enlightened establishment of black education that actually had “brown bag� filters or tests that one had to pass to even qualify for consideration to one of these places of brotherhood and sisterhood. That is, you had to be black to join these Greek houses (even though many students that attended Howard are NOT African American in decent) and you had to be lighter-skinned or as light skinned as a brown paper bag to join.

Don’t believe me? Check out Spike Lee’s “School Daze�, it’s a commercial but generally on point description of some of the backwards thinking that is still going on in black schools.
A lot of this warped thinking is a result of many years of slavery & racist/prejudice heaped upon the blacks of this country.
But blacks have, despite many advances and victories over the inherently oppressive society that we live in, a burden of their own to honestly look upon their own attitudes and self-loathing to make some changes in the way we see, act and re-act to the world around us.

I'm certianly not the one who claims to have all the answers, but I know that we still have a long way to go...

You know what, though, the discrimination (on a personal level) goes both ways.  I had a very close "friend" in high school.  We had to keep our "friendship" a secret because he was Hispanic and I was caucasian and his parents and friends would not approve.  The 1 time I called him at his house, his mother started cursing at me (in Spanish) and told me (in English) to "never call this house again if you know what's good for you".  I've also been called a "cracker" on more occasions than I wish to count.  In college, a good friend of mine (he was gay) was a brother in an all-black fraternity.  He wanted to take me to their formal.  They refused to sell him a ticket for me as I was white.  So, "minorities" need to expand their circles as well.


Cheer, I couldn't agree with you more, but again, you are talking about, at least in the first instande, personal prejudice.  Your friend's mother was ignorant, and your friend was to young (I guess) to challegnge her.  You give no details, but for sure there was a stage in my life that I would have allowed a parant to do that, maybe up to 14 or 15, but I always was a rebel.  I never tried to tell my kids who they should date, and would have been happy to see them date any person that I thought was a good person, race, religion, or even gender not withstanding (although I sure hoped that they were all hetero's - that's a prejudice on which I would not have acted).

Your second example, if it reflected that fraternity's policy, is an example of institutional racism.  Regardless of your friend's orientation, to exclude you from being his guest because of your race was institutional racism.  I condemn both the prejudice of the Latino mother (please pm me with more detials, like age etc if you want to explore this) and the whole idea of a "black" fraternity.  In that regard, one must ask, how many "white" fraternities were there? Whould they have sanctioned "cross race" dating?  Having faced exclusion, I have felt the desire to say, to be crude "F**k you", who needs you.  This is not ment as an appology, but as an explanation.  When you get kicked often enough you say so, and form bonds of support to keep from getting kicked again.  It might not be the best response, but until you have walked a mile in those moccasins, it might be hard for you to understand.

Looks like you have been ill used by the racism of our society, but not as ill used as its major recipiants.  You walk in white moccasins, so its hard for you to walk in those who socieity (NOT YOU) has defined as other.  In both cases, your experiences are a reflection, not on you, but on the society that defines these relationships.  Its so sad, its such a tragedy, its such a waste. 

Cheer, I hope you take none of this as a personal affront.  My comments are not ment that way at all.  I do see and appreciate your point.  Mine, although not expressed in these terms, has to do with who has power.  Ultimately, power is the issue.  Power to hire and fire.  Power to arrest, power  to profile.  As one who felt discrimination because of the power of others, you were an innocent victim, as an individual with an oper heart.  As a member of the dominant race, that might be another story.

To paraphrase Martin, "when ALL Gods children will be judged by the content of their character" then we can ALL declare "Free at last, Free at last, thank God Almighty, WE ARE ALL free at last".

Hope this makes sense.  I get a bit emotional about it, especially trying to explain to good hearted white foilks. ( Now if you were GWB I'd try to lay you out  ;)

I'm overwhelmed with things I would like to say on this subject. I'll try to pare it down. I am an African-American female who would pass the paperbag test. I come from a family that runs the color spectrum from able to pass to looks like he just got off the boat. I was raised in a very diverse neighborhood of  a very Caucasian(at that time) city.  There is an education that comes with being in that sort of situation.  I have been in situations where people who I thought were beyond the color thing have said things that were racist and insulting, and didn't understand why I would take offense because "you're not like those people, you're different".  I have met people who I have mistakenly tagged as racist, who were much more open than the people I thought were beyond all that. In the fourth grade I was berated by my teacher for putting on airs because black people don't talk like that. She found out very soon, in the principals office, that my mother, father, and grandmother did.
I work in a position now that I am well qualified for, but I know that I would not have this job if there wasn't affirmative action program in place.  I work in a, traditionally, white male profession along side some people not as qualified as I, who got here on the daddy factor.  They don't see that as being a form of affirmative action.  Everyday of my life people make assumptions about me, they stereotype my situation, and most times, I have to say, they are wrong.  So I have learned not to make assumptions about them.  Take people as they offer themselves.

I know what you're saying.  And, I agree, there have been atrocities in the past that were committed simply due to race.  However, you encouraged the "white" people to "seek out and befriend minorities".  What I was trying to point out is that there are still MANY who do not want "white" friends.  They see the color of OUR skin and automatically jump to the conclusion that we are either racist or trying to "prove" that we're not.  In the first case I pointed out, he was 18 (I was 17).  And, in response to your question about fraternities?  I would venture a guess that there are FEW (if any) all-white fraternities today, but a multitude of all-black ones.  Maybe you're right, because I'm white, I don't see why an all-minority organization can exclude us and it's okay. ???


While I pretty much HAVE to have white friends, but I do prefere to hang with the few Latinos I know.  My point really has nothing to do with who people choose to befriend, but rather with those who have power opening the institutions of power to minority access.  The notion of white folks "adopting a darkie" is repugnant to me, but is not relective of the attitude of my white friends, who sought me out and found me to be a valuable friend and colleague.

I don't approve of "race" based organizations, public or private!!! 

Now a bit of science:  Two mountain gorrillas in central Africa meet.  A scientist takes a blood sample from each and runs a DNA analysis.  Another scientist draws blood from an Inuet and an Austrailian native (aboriginy) and also runs one.  Which will demonstrate the greatest genetic variation? 

























The gorillas.  Race IS NOT a biological reality but a social construct based on POWER.

To me the idea of affirmative action and seeking out people to befriend based on race seems a bit insulting. Like, "Oh, look at the minorities, they're so fascinating!" the way you would regard quaint local artwork when visiting a foreign country.


I never have a problem with helping people who have had some bad luck in life.  Giving scholarships to kids from the ghetto, or giving them breaks so they can get into college is perfectly fine to me.  But to me, it should be based on INCOME. not on RACE.

I always found it stupid that applications for financial aid have the PARENTS income.  Parents, as in both.  I knew a guy a few years ago who lived in a bad area of LA.  His dad would never pay child support, and his mother worked 2 jobs to get by.

When he applied for aid, he had to give his worthless father's income (over $200k a year).  Of course, he was refused.  And of course, his father would NEVER give him a dime for school.  So because his worthless father was rich, he got no help.  While other kids were able to get scholarships simply because of their color.  That to me is madness.

While I pretty much HAVE to have white friends, but I do prefere to hang with the few Latinos I know.  My point really has nothing to do with who people choose to befriend, but rather with those who have power opening the institutions of power to minority access.  The notion of white folks "adopting a darkie" is repugnant to me, but is not relective of the attitude of my white friends, who sought me out and found me to be a valuable friend and colleague.


I fully agree with you there.  I never make friends or hang out with somebody for any reason other then I like them and we get along.  That is all that ever matters to me.  I think my life would be even more dull if I only had friends who were like me, looked like me, thought like me, and agreed with me.


The gorillas.  Race IS NOT a biological reality but a social construct based on POWER.


There are SOME biological reasons behind race.  The only one that is major is the sycle cell in blacks.  This developed as a way to protect against malaria.  This and the dark skin helped them adapt to a life on an open grassland region.  In much the same way Mongolians developed the "emphatic eyefold" to protect their eyes against glare in the tundra and grassland regions of central Asia.

The problem is that in the US, most people say "race" when they REALLY mean "ethnicity".  There are only 3 "races", but there are thousands of ethnicities.

Myself, it really means nothing, to be honest.  A person is a person, and I do not judge people by something as silly as who their great-great-great-great-great grandparents were.

One interesting thing, some "racial slurs" are considered insults, yet there are others which are considered compliments.  And some are stereotypes which are almost totally wrong, yet others have often been seen to be correct.  Some of them are acceptable to mention, and others are not.  Just more things that make you go "Hmmmm".

One interesting thing, some "racial slurs" are considered insults, yet there are others which are considered compliments.  And some are stereotypes which are almost totally wrong, yet others have often been seen to be correct.  Some of them are acceptable to mention, and others are not.  Just more things that make you go "Hmmmm".


I know what you mean, Mushroom. As mentioned previously, I've put my foot in it a few times.  :-\\

I never have a problem with helping people who have had some bad luck in life.  Giving scholarships to kids from the ghetto, or giving them breaks so they can get into college is perfectly fine to me.  But to me, it should be based on INCOME. not on RACE.

I always found it stupid that applications for financial aid have the PARENTS income.  Parents, as in both.  I knew a guy a few years ago who lived in a bad area of LA.  His dad would never pay child support, and his mother worked 2 jobs to get by.

When he applied for aid, he had to give his worthless father's income (over $200k a year).  Of course, he was refused.  And of course, his father would NEVER give him a dime for school.  So because his worthless father was rich, he got no help.  While other kids were able to get scholarships simply because of their color.  That to me is madness.

I think above a certain age, you don't have to report your parents' income.  A young person who has a deadbeat dad should be able to consult with officials and get exempt from the requirement.

I have always believed financial aid should be based strictly on income, not on race.  Many years ago when my cousins were applying for college, one of them accidentally checked Native American on her application--not a financial aid app., a college app.  The scholarship offers just POURED in.  Never mind that their father was a millionaire advertising executive and they lived in Greenwich, Connecticut.
::)

A young person who has a deadbeat dad should be able to consult with officials and get exempt from the requirement.
::)

But if you automatically lose out on aid you'd otherwise get, surely there must be some kind of legal compulsion for the parent who has the money to pay for your education?

There have been a couple of child support cases were fathers refused to pay college expenses.  It was found that they could not be compelled to pay any money beyond child support because parents in a two family household are not legally bound to put their child through college. Secondary education, although more and more a necessity is considered a privilege, not a right.  A close friend of mine had to put her daughter through college by maxing out credit cards, and depending on family, while daddy(with alot more money) refused to come up with any more than the court ordered child support..  To add insult to injury, the day she graduated from college he couldn't attend because he was in court rescinding the support order.

There are SOME biological reasons behind race.  The only one that is major is the sycle cell in blacks.  This developed as a way to protect against malaria.  This and the dark skin helped them adapt to a life on an open grassland region.  In much the same way Mongolians developed the "emphatic eyefold" to protect their eyes against glare in the tundra and grassland regions of central Asia.

The problem is that in the US, most people say "race" when they REALLY mean "ethnicity".  There are only 3 "races", but there are thousands of ethnicities.

Myself, it really means nothing, to be honest.  A person is a person, and I do not judge people by something as silly as who their great-great-great-great-great grandparents were.

One interesting thing, some "racial slurs" are considered insults, yet there are others which are considered compliments.  And some are stereotypes which are almost totally wrong, yet others have often been seen to be correct.  Some of them are acceptable to mention, and others are not.  Just more things that make you go "Hmmmm".


Yes, clearly there are genetic differences between human groups, which in some cases lead to physical manifestations.  That is obvious and undeniable, nor did I ever deny it.  My point is that these variations are VERY smalleven though their manifestations seem to be great.  As a spicies, we are more alike genetically than most others.  That being the case, I have to conclude that the divisions we countancance (your notion that there are 3 races F.E.) just doesn't hold up BIOLOGICALLY.  At that level, we are one race called "human" or "homo Sapien".  We divide ourselves for ethnocentric reasons having to do moistly with power. 

As to "racial" slurs, I have had some aimed at me.  The first time I didn't get it.  The second time, the kid got a bloody nose and I got suspended, until my (northern European ancestory) father told the principle where to go.  I have heard "black" people use the "n" word for each other.  The oppressed often mock the oppressor.

Again, as I said above, we need to get past this and value everyone for the content of their character, not for the very few genes that make us appear different.

I took a course in Anthropology and was told we are all Homo Sapien Sapien(I forget why we get the
extra Sapien)  We are one race with differing ethno/cultural divisions.  It's easier to explain it this way.  We can all have each others babies.  Voila!  We procreate in exactly the same way. And when we do are skin color is blended, not mottled or patched, ever notice that? Ever wonder why northern Italians are are blond and southern Italians are, well, dark? We can attribute the dark skin to the proximity to the African coast, as opposed to the proximity to the Alps.  We all tend to smile when we are happy, cry when hurt. One world, one race, like it or not.

I took a course in Anthropology and was told we are all Homo Sapien Sapien(I forget why we get the
extra Sapien)  We are one race with differing ethno/cultural divisions.  It's easier to explain it this way.  We can all have each others babies.  Voila!   We procreate in exactly the same way. And when we do are skin color is blended, not mottled or patched, ever notice that? Ever wonder why northern Italians are are blond and southern Italians are, well, dark? We can attribute the dark skin to the proximity to the African coast, as opposed to the proximity to the Alps.  We all tend to smile when we are happy, cry when hurt. One world, one race, like it or not.


As you may have infered, I like it.  When we all recognize that we are one people, and put  that knowledge into action by eliminating the historical divisions WE have created to rationalize slavery and exploitation, and when those who have benefited from those rationalizations give up their benefits, we might wind up with MLK's dream.  I hope I live to see that day.

I took a course in Anthropology and was told we are all Homo Sapien Sapien(I forget why we get the
extra Sapien) 

Ah, that would be indicated in the current scientific classification system of biology, called taxonomy:
Genus: Homo
Species: Sapiens
Subspecies: Sapiens

see the entire classification here:
http://www.baa.duke.edu/BAA93/taxonomy

Ah, that would be indicated in the current scientific classification system of biology, called taxonomy:
Genus: Homo
Species: Sapiens
Subspecies: Sapiens

see the entire classification here:
http://www.baa.duke.edu/BAA93/taxonomy



And by this very defintion, if "race" was a truly biological division, the sub-species designation would be different for each "race" ie. "Africanus", "Australus", "Oceanus", etc. But it's not. It's "sapiens" for everyone. And let me add a foreign perspective on this issue. On no official document that I have ever had to complete or official record that I've ever seen in this country have I ever seen a space for the designation of one's race, except to ask if the person completing it is of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander origin. Country of origin is often asked, but never one's "race". Since multiculturalism has been an important part of Australian government policy since the early 1970s, the question of one's "race" (outside of Aboriginality, which remains problematic for a lot of reasons) is, technically, not seen to be an official issue from a bureaucratic point of view. From a social stand point however, it unfortunately remains one.

And by this very defintion, if "race" was a truly biological division, the sub-species designation would be different for each "race" ie. "Africanus", "Australus", "Oceanus", etc. But it's not. It's "sapiens" for everyone. And let me add a foreign perspective on this issue. On no official document that I have ever had to complete or official record that I've ever seen in this country have I ever seen a space for the designation of one's race, except to ask if the person completing it is of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander origin. Country of origin is often asked, but never one's "race". Since multiculturalism has been an important part of Australian government policy since the early 1970s, the question of one's "race" (outside of Aboriginality, which remains problematic for a lot of reasons) is, technically, not seen to be an official issue from a bureaucratic point of view. From a social stand point however, it unfortunately remains one.


In fact, most taxonomies have dropped the second "sapians" since genetic studies have proven that Neanderthals were not a sub-spiecies.  We are one of the least genetically diverse spiecies on the planet.  Our mitochondrial mother, Eve, lived about 150,000 years ago around Lake Victoria.  Our Y chromasome father, Adam, lived in the same region and at about the same time, not that they ever met.  We are all cousins, and should revel in that fact.

  We are all cousins, and should revel in that fact.




WHAT?? You mean I married my cousin?  :o     


;)




Cat

WHAT?? You mean I married my cousin?  :o     


;)




Cat


Move to Utah...it's legal here.  Well, as long as you are past child bearing years. ;)

Move to Utah...it's legal here.  Well, as long as you are past child bearing years. ;)

Really? You can?  After your child bearing years?  Oh wow!  I hope my cousing Jen keeps that swell figure, she's a hottie! (joke)
;D
Seriously, they must mean the woman's childbearing years.  I mean, look at a guy like Tony Randall, he was shooting live rounds at the age of 78!  Now, didn't Mrs. Edwards just have a child at the age of 50?  It seems the chilbearing age is going up all the time!

Really? You can?  After your child bearing years?  Oh wow!  I hope my cousing Jen keeps that swell figure, she's a hottie! (joke)
;D
Seriously, they must mean the woman's childbearing years.  I mean, look at a guy like Tony Randall, he was shooting live rounds at the age of 78!  Now, didn't Mrs. Edwards just have a child at the age of 50?  It seems the chilbearing age is going up all the time!


Vice is nice, but incest is best  ;D (thats a joke son).

WHAT?? You mean I married my cousin?  :o     


;)




Cat
Hope you don't have any "Flipper" children!  ;D

Really? You can?  After your child bearing years?  Oh wow!  I hope my cousing Jen keeps that swell figure, she's a hottie! (joke)
;D
Seriously, they must mean the woman's childbearing years.  I mean, look at a guy like Tony Randall, he was shooting live rounds at the age of 78!  Now, didn't Mrs. Edwards just have a child at the age of 50?  It seems the chilbearing age is going up all the time!


Gotta love Utah and our stupid laws. ;)

Hope you don't have any "Flipper" children!  ;D

That's more likely to be a result of living in too close proximity of certain government testing and dumping that goes on out there, like where they filmed that John Wayne movie, "The Conquerer."
:P

I find the North American prejudice against the marriage of cousins rather amusing. In most other Western nations, including Australia, there's no laws against cousins marrying, and no scientific evidence to suggest there's anything wrong with it. Certainly "in-breeding" can occur when successive generations of closely-related people continue to intermingle, but the stigma against the marriage of cousins appears to be a uniquely American issue.

I knew a woman who married her first cousin-didn't even have to change her name. They have since been divorced and I think she remarried-don't know about him-lost contact with them.




Cat