For the longest time, I've been hearing a lot more about the occult. From what I've heard, it's possessing the children's minds with it's dark magick. And it takes the form of card games, video games, etc.

1. Pokemon, quite popular with the children a few years back
2. Yu-Gi-Oh, also quite popular
3. Magic: The Gathering, there's a good one
4. Dungeons and Dragons, a bit older, but still accused nonetheless
5. Other things of that nature.


And I'm always met with the same argument from the angry Christian mother:



ITSATOOLOFTHEDARKONEIFYOUEVENTHINKABOUTYOULLBEDRAGGEDTOHELLFORSUREITSPOISONINGTHESOULSOFTHECHILDRENIFWELETTHEMUSEITTHEYLLGOOFFANDWORSHIPSATAN!!!!!!  :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


I can understand some of it: You might be uncomfortable with a game that has your children leading a hoard of demons into battle with a group of angelic figures and winning every time. But that's where parenting comes in. I think that as long as you explain to your child the line between reality and fantasy, you're okay. If they start cutting their wrists and dribbling the blood onto a pentagram-covered Pikachu doll while chanting, you have something to worry about. But it almost always stays at just a game, so why worry?


I'd like to see others opinion on this: Are kids not given enough credit, or are they really that eager to worship the Devil? {I know children are evil, but still... ;D}


"Hey, son?"

"Yeah, dad?"

"You collect those Pokeyman cards, right?"

"Yeah, why? Is something up?"

"Listen carefully son...."

"Okay."

"Don't worship the Devil, son."

"Okay, dad."

"Thanks, son."

"Sure, dad."

I'm a skeptic about the occult.  I'm not non-believer, mind you, I only ask for evidence of the supernatural, and evidence is not forthcoming.

Most supernatural experiences originate from our power of suggestion.  Never underestimate the power of suggestion.  It is powerful enough to kill.  Power of suggestion is what gives the vodou witch doctor his influence.

What humans have believed, said, and did in the name of the occult is to me every bit as fascinating (and terrifying) as the occult itself.

I have not heard thing one about Pokeman being linked to the occult, but maybe I haven't listened!
:D

The occult has been linked with lots of things including heavy metal music and the like. The only thing I know that can cause problems is a Ouijja board. Anybody used one?

The occult has been linked with lots of things including heavy metal music and the like. The only thing I know that can cause problems is a Ouijja board. Anybody used one?


Yes. Nothing happened.

Like you said though, anything and everything has been linked to the occult. Unless I'm hallucinating (which I might be, it's pretty hot over here), I think even Cabbage Patch Kids were linked to the occult. :o

Being a student of the occult, I think that people look too much into things-a game of cards, a movie, a cartoon, etc. There are some people who believe that a regular deck of playing cards are the devil's playthings-because they were derived from the Tarot. Most of the pop culture stuff is harmless-there is really no magical properties to them. The problem stems from things that do have magical properties-like Tarot cards, runes, and Ouiji boards (yes, Bobby, I have used one) to name a few, where the people who use them do not know what they are doing. One thing about dealing with magic is that there are consequences. I am not saying that the devil (yes, small d) will be lurking there-in my religion there is no such thing as the devil-but there are evil forces. A good example of this is the story of the "Monkey's Paw". If you don't know the story, this couple asked for money. They got it but at the cost of their son dying in a tragic accident. Witches before preforming magic usually do a protective spell to ward off evil. The average person doesn't know that and if they start dabbing in magic it could get out of hand. And of course the biggest thing to remember is BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

Ok, end of Magic 101.


In terms of the pop culture stuff-yes, it is up to the parents to make sure that kids understand that it is fantasy. But, most of it is usually a good vs evil type thing. So, teaching kids that good SHOULD win, I also think is ok. Look at Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings-it is all good vs evil. And evil needs to be defeated. Of course evil in those stories usually have a face and a name to it. But the evil we see today is much less tangent. But needs to be fought just the same. 



Cat

i'm an avid dungeons and dragons player, i've been playing for 20 years now. i've heard this argument many times. it always seems to pop up on the message boards on wizards.com...and it usually draws flames and many are quickly locked, thus the issue remains a sensitive one amongst us gamers. D&D has been played by over 20 million people worldwide in the last 30 years and about over a million play it daily. in all of that time theres only been a handful of gamer related deaths, usually suicides but there have been murders. given how many people have played versus how many were adversly affected (and it's assumed these troubled individuals were that, troubled. they could have easily been affected by heavy metal music or cartoons by disney other than just D&D) the odds seem to favour the game is just that. a game. not some anarchic tool of satan.

i've played with many people over the years and my conclusion is that many D&D players (and this goes for card gamers as well) are above average intelligence. you have to read rules manuals and background fiction. you have to learn about an entire fictional worlds and many gamers learn how to think on their feet and react quickly to situations. because of my gaming, i've developed an interest in history, many gamers, if not all, are avid readers.

as to the occult, i myself have been and always will be a christian, the game's occultic nature is fascinating but thats all. my girlfriend and my best friend have become pagans, the game opened up that avenue that they may have not known existed.

although the one thing that seems to be a problem with fanatsy gaming, it is violent. a parent has to make a dicision on whether the game is good for their child or not.

Anything happen when you used the ouijja board, Catwoman?

Anything happen when you used the ouijja board, Catwoman?



yup



Cat

Anything happen when you used the ouijja board, Catwoman?

I never played the Ouija board, but I remember my sister and my cousin used to scare themselves silly with the thing.  What evidence is there that Ouija can connect you with the supernatural?

Myself, I have used the Tarot. I recently started collecting decks. I do not believe it to be a tool of magic, just a tool one can use for entertainment or self-reflection. Sure, there might be special properties to the cards, I don't believe it personally. I take it what I see it to be: a collection of beautiful artwork in the form of cards. Artwork can be admired or used for personal reflection {look at a painting and think of how it relates to you}, and cards are used for entertainment. So, I use it for all 3.


By the way, Pokemon have been associated with the Devil. I once heard a preacher's lecture. The gist was: Pokemon are unholy creatures that are not the creations of God, and are therefore evil.


Really though, have you ever seen some of those Pokemon? Somehow, I don't think Satan would choose a Pikachu to lead the armies of Hell.

By the way, Pokemon have been associated with the Devil. I once heard a preacher's lecture. The gist was: Pokemon are unholy creatures that are not the creations of God, and are therefore evil.



The theme song to Mister Ed  has been associated with the Devil.  Seek the Devil, and ye shall find!

yup


Can you tell us what happened?

Can you tell us what happened?


I haven't touched or seen a ouiji board since I was 17. But, before that time, I have used them a several times-so there were many incidents that happened that it would be a VERY long post but I will tell you one. The last time, I was with a bunch of people. Two had their fingers on the "controller" (whatever it is called) and I was asking questions. I was not even touching the board as I was asking the questions. I had asked it what my mother's REAL name was (she was adopted as a baby and her name was changed). I knew the answer but the two people working the board couldn't have known. It did spell out the name. (*Theme from the Twilight Zone can be heard here*)




Cat

I haven't touched or seen a ouiji board since I was 17. But, before that time, I have used them a several times-so there were many incidents that happened that it would be a VERY long post but I will tell you one. The last time, I was with a bunch of people. Two had their fingers on the "controller" (whatever it is called) and I was asking questions. I was not even touching the board as I was asking the questions. I had asked it what my mother's REAL name was (she was adopted as a baby and her name was changed). I knew the answer but the two people working the board couldn't have known. It did spell out the name. (*Theme from the Twilight Zone can be heard here*)


Wooo! That is quite scary. I have heard genuine problems have occurred with the use of ouijja boards. In fact, it's the only 'supernatural' thing I don't take lightly. What do the sceptics think?

Morrissey
Ouija Board, Ouija Board

Ouija board
Would you work for me ?
I have got to say hello
To an old friend

Ouija board, ouija board, ouija board
Would you work for me ?
I have got to get through
To a good friend
Well, she has now gone
From this unhappy planet
With all the carnivores
And the destructors of it

Ouija board, ouija board, ouija board
Would you help me ?
Because I still do feel
So horribly lonely

Would you, ouija board
Would you, ouija board
Would you help me ?
And I just can’t find
My place in this world

She has now gone
From this unhappy planet
With all the carnivores
And the destructors of it

Oh hear my voice (hear my voice)
Oh hear my voice (hear my voice)
Hear my voice (hear my voice)
Hear my voice (hear my voice)
The table is rumbling ...
The table is rumbling
The glass is moving
No, I was not pushing that time
It spells : s.t.e.v.e.n

The table is rumbling
The glass is moving
No, I was not pushing that time :
P.u.s.h.o. double f.

Well, she has now gone
From this unhappy planet
With all the carnivores
And the destructors of it

I am a sceptic, and a rationalist (and a secular humanist).  I personally don't believe in any of this stuff, but I do agree with Hamlet "there are more things under heavan than are dealt wiuth in your philosophy".  

That said, will someone define for me "the occult"?  

From the beginning of time (or at least humanity) people have tried to figure out the BIG questions, the meaning of life, our place in the universe, death.  Many  answers have been put forward.  The west has +/- accepted one or another version of the Christian answers.  That doesn't make them right.  Check out Galileo.

By the way, Pokemon have been associated with the Devil. I once heard a preacher's lecture. The gist was: Pokemon are unholy creatures that are not the creations of God, and are therefore evil.

Really though, have you ever seen some of those Pokemon? Somehow, I don't think Satan would choose a Pikachu to lead the armies of Hell.

ROFL!  By the same token, Bugs Bunny, Popeye et al must also be evil associations of the Devil.

RPGs are a gateway to "the occult" (whatever it may be) and devil worship in the same way as pot is a gateway to harder drugs: there will be some people who play RPGs and go on to the wholly sublime idiocy that is devil worship - there ain't no causative link: I know (literally) hundreds of people who enjoy roleplay games, none of whom would even take that kind of thing seriously.  The vast majority are very capable of telling the difference between fantasy and the real world, which is probably why a much larger proportion of RPGers are agnostic/atheist.

I am a sceptic, and a rationalist (and a secular humanist).  I personally don't believe in any of this stuff, but I do agree with Hamlet "there are more things under heavan than are dealt wiuth in your philosophy".  

That said, will someone define for me "the occult"?  





Just read all my books.  ;D  :-*



Cat

Maxwell Smart, what was Morrissey trying to say in the song 'Ouijja, Ouijja'?

Maxwell Smart, what was Morrissey trying to say in the song 'Ouijja, Ouijja'?

Your guess is as good as mine!

Cat, my friends and I (in HS) had an old one that we used to play with and we asked a similar queston.  Whatever was controlling it had an odd obsession with me and would continuously spell out my name when I wasn't there.  I asked it one time what my g-g-grandma used to call me (which noone outside the family knew since she had been long passed and lived in another state) and it spelled out "PEG", which is nowhere close to my name.




I had a similar experience where it kept spelling my name too. What did that mean? Who knows.




Cat

Your guess is as good as mine!


Oh right lol.  ;D

That said, will someone define for me "the occult"? 






Just read all my books.  ;D   :-*



Cat


You miss my point.  Why is the virgin birth and the mystery of the trinity any less "occult" than any other magic/religious practice?

You miss my point.  Why is the virgin birth and the mystery of the trinity any less "occult" than any other magic/religious practice?


That is an interesting point, Carlos.

You miss my point. Why is the virgin birth and the mystery of the trinity any less "occult" than any other magic/religious practice?

Because that's how the Sunday School brainwashing goes...

Because that's how the Sunday School brainwashing goes...


Ho ho!  ;D

You miss my point.  Why is the virgin birth and the mystery of the trinity any less "occult" than any other magic/religious practice?

A lot of Protestant fundamentalists consider the Catholic worship the Holy Trinity "occult," and the Catholic order of saints little more than pagan idolatry.

A lot of Protestant fundamentalists consider the Catholic worship the Holy Trinity "occult," and the Catholic order of saints little more than pagan idolatry.


True enough, and the same fundamentalists believe the devil is a real corporial being (on that I could be convinced to agree, he's living in the white house).

True enough, and the same fundamentalists believe the devil is a real corporial being (on that I could be convinced to agree, he's living in the white house).

Say, they never show Dubya's feet.  I'll bet they're cloven, or maybe chicken feet.  As lore goes, the only part of the devil the devil can't change when he takes human form is his feet.  If you look up old legends of the devil appearing at places like dances and card games, everybody is impressed with this handsome and mysterious strangers, until somebody notices his feet--OMIGOD IT'S THE DEVIL--and then the devil vanishes!
If the devil can change into human form, why he cannot change his feet into human ones is as mysterious to me as why he is alleged to have cloven or chicken feet to begin with.  Anyway, one argument AGAINST dubya being the devil is the devil universally appears as a charmer and a smooth talker, so....
???

http://amightywind.com/hell/citizenhell.htm


A woman claims that she had a vision of Hell and heard a song sung by the damned. It's kinda weird, but I thought I'd share it with y'all.

Say, they never show Dubya's feet.  I'll bet they're cloven, or maybe chicken feet.  As lore goes, the only part of the devil the devil can't change when he takes human form is his feet.  If you look up old legends of the devil appearing at places like dances and card games, everybody is impressed with this handsome and mysterious strangers, until somebody notices his feet--OMIGOD IT'S THE DEVIL--and then the devil vanishes!
If the devil can change into human form, why he cannot change his feet into human ones is as mysterious to me as why he is alleged to have cloven or chicken feet to begin with.  Anyway, one argument AGAINST dubya being the devil is the devil universally appears as a charmer and a smooth talker, so....
???


Ha yes, more of those mysteries.  Big foot anyone?

http://amightywind.com/hell/citizenhell.htm


A woman claims that she had a vision of Hell and heard a song sung by the darned. It's kinda weird, but I thought I'd share it with y'all.

You gotta write as d*mned.  "Darned" kinda takes the punch out of it!

Is Wicca considered occult? ???

Closeby in Knox Indiana, on saturday, two 13-year-old girls decided to throw themselves in front of a freight train.  Their wish was to die so that they could be reincarnated; apparently they left a note outlining their Wiccan practices and why they did this.

Anyway, one of their two wishes came true.  They were both killed.  No word on the reincarnation yet.

Closeby in Knox Indiana, on saturday, two 13-year-old girls decided to throw themselves in front of a freight train. Their wish was to die so that they could be reincarnated; apparently they left a note outlining their Wiccan practices and why they did this.

Presumably that's "wiccan" spelt s-t-u-p-i-d?

Is Wicca considered occult? ???

Closeby in Knox Indiana, on saturday, two 13-year-old girls decided to throw themselves in front of a freight train.  Their wish was to die so that they could be reincarnated; apparently they left a note outlining their Wiccan practices and why they did this.

Anyway, one of their two wishes came true.  They were both killed.  No word on the reincarnation yet.



That is not the Wicca that I practice. Yes, Wiccan beliefs does include reincarnation but that is just going a bit overboard. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? I know, they weren't.




Cat

Is Wicca considered occult? ???

Closeby in Knox Indiana, on saturday, two 13-year-old girls decided to throw themselves in front of a freight train.  Their wish was to die so that they could be reincarnated; apparently they left a note outlining their Wiccan practices and why they did this.

Anyway, one of their two wishes came true.  They were both killed.  No word on the reincarnation yet.

Uh oh!  Sounds like somebody's been watching too much "700 Club"!
:P

You gotta write as d*mned.  "Darned" kinda takes the punch out of it!




Whoops! Forgot about that. God, I hate those censors.

Uh oh! Sounds like somebody's been watching too much "700 Club"!
:P


Not quite.  I have watched the 700 club and never heard anyting about reincarnation.  Christians don't believe in that.

Sounds to me like a couple of not too bright girls.

Not quite.  I have watched the 700 club and never heard anyting about reincarnation.  Christians don't believe in that.

Sounds to me like a couple of not too bright girls.

I know Christians don't believe in reincarnation.
::)
I was saying, the anectdote sounds like a Christian right scare tactic about the dangerous influence of paganism on the young.
BTW, as far as I know, reincarnation does not enter into Wicca, and no Buddhist would suggest suicide as a method for advancement!

The mighty wind site Is purely to scare people into being Christian. It's scary if you believe it. Horrifying, even.

I know Christians don't believe in reincarnation.
::)
I was saying, the anectdote sounds like a Christian right scare tactic about the dangerous influence of paganism on the young.
BTW, as far as I know, reincarnation does not enter into Wicca, and no Buddhist would suicide as a method for advancement!


According to CatWoman, Wicca does consider reincarnation.  Although also according to her, throwing yourself in front of a freight train is not.

See the attached link.  It seems that the two 13-year-olds had a twisted idea of Wicca.

It is not a Pat Robertson link, by the way.  ::)

According to CatWoman, Wicca does consider reincarnation.  Although also according to her, throwing yourself in front of a freight train is not.

See the attached link.  It seems that the two 13-year-olds had a twisted idea of Wicca.

It is not a Pat Robertson link, by the way.  ::)

Uh, no thank you, sir, I'll pass!

i don't understand these 'christians' who try to scare people in accepting their faith. i believe in christ, i believe in the ressurection and the holy trinity yet i do questionable non-christian things. yet these people have the gaul to condemn me...meh. to each his own i guess.

http://amightywind.com/hell/citizenhell.htm
A woman claims that she had a vision of Hell and heard a song sung by the damned. It's kinda weird, but I thought I'd share it with y'all.

Got me thinking... which song by The D*mned?  Reckon it must have been "Would You Be So Hot (If You Weren't Dead)" ;)

Got me thinking... which song by The D*mned?  Reckon it must have been "Would You Be So Hot (If You Weren't Dead)" ;)


The song is nothing you'd have heard of. It was made by Satan, soley as a lamentation of the D*mned {according to her}. The song is called "Citizen of Hell". It kinda rhymes at the beginning, but by the first verse, it's just rhymthic {and not too good at that either} talking and screams. The first verse is really creepy, after that, it's struggles.

Somehow I imagined Satan as a bit better of a muscian. But then, as the site says "No musician can play in Hell. All their notes come out flat."  ::)

I know Christians don't believe in reincarnation.
::)
I was saying, the anectdote sounds like a Christian right scare tactic about the dangerous influence of paganism on the young.
BTW, as far as I know, reincarnation does not enter into Wicca, and no Buddhist would suggest suicide as a method for advancement!


Since Buddists reverance all life, suicide would lead to a decline in the progression toward nervana (no not the rock group). 

I couldn't swear to it, but it seems to me that it is only the "revealed religions" that are overly upset by those who hold beliefs, like Wicca, that conflict with their theology.  "Natural" religions tend to be a "bigger tent".

No one has yet to give me a definition of the occult, or at least one that separates it from "non-occult" religions.  I suspect that's because ALL religion is "occult".  They all focus on belief in things unseeable, and are all based on faith.  I write, of course, as a sociologist (I did all the grad school work for a Ph.D. in Socioliogy but never wrote the dissertation), not a theologian.  I would guess that for most, Judism, Christianity, and Islam are non-occult religions, since the all come from the same tradition and share a bunch of beliefs, and all the rest are, but I'm waiting for a definition.

Uh, no thank you, sir, I'll pass!


I have a sincere question.  Why do you form an opinion on something if you won't click the link because of what you think is there? 

I have a sincere question.  Why do you form an opinion on something if you won't click the link because of what you think is there? 



Makes sense, but I can't see who was doing this.

According to CatWoman, Wicca does consider reincarnation. Although also according to her, throwing yourself in front of a freight train is not.

See the attached link. It seems that the two 13-year-olds had a twisted idea of Wicca.

It is not a Pat Robertson link, by the way. ::)




Uh, no thank you, sir, I'll pass!




I have a sincere question.  Why do you form an opinion on something if you won't click the link because of what you think is there? 


Here is that link, by the way.  I forgot to actually post it before.  :-[

http://www.wsbt.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=52&ArticleID=991

No one has yet to give me a definition of the occult, or at least one that separates it from "non-occult" religions.  I suspect that's because ALL religion is "occult".  They all focus on belief in things unseeable, and are all based on faith.  I write, of course, as a sociologist (I did all the grad school work for a Ph.D. in Socioliogy but never wrote the dissertation), not a theologian.  I would guess that for most, Judism, Christianity, and Islam are non-occult religions, since the all come from the same tradition and share a bunch of beliefs, and all the rest are, but I'm waiting for a definition.



Here's your definition, courtesy of dictionary.com:

1. Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.
2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.

Here's your definition, courtesy of dictionary.com:

1. Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.
2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.


That covers alot of territory.  :P

Makes sense, but I can't see who was doing this.


Read what Maxwell quoted in the post I quoted.  Lyricboy explained it all, though.

(thanks, LyricBoy :) )

That covers alot of territory.  :P


He wanted a definition of occult, he got one. If Don Carlos wanted something more specific, I'm sure he knows how to ask.

Max?  Have you not visited or are you not going to answer my question?  I clicked on the link LB provided and it is just a news site.

I know Christians don't believe in reincarnation.
::)


Actually, that is a half-truth.

Christians *DO* believe in reincarnation.  But it is *NOT* a reincarnation like the Eastern religions believe.  They believe in a reincarnation and another life in Heaven, not on Earth.

RPG's are possibly the most dangerous games out there.  They are also among the most fun and intellectual.

Do I think they invite in the occult?  Do I think they invite in violence and "Devil Worshiping"?  Maybe.  It depends on the person.

Don't forget, RPG stands for "ROLE PLAYING Game".  And as anybody who studies psychology knows, role playing can be a very potent psychological tool.  It can give some very important views into a person's mind.

In reguards to a normal person with a firm grasp on reality, RPG's can be a very fun and enjoyable hobby.  In the case of people who do not have a firm grasp on reality (through either mental illness or the influence of drugs), it can be a ptentially dangerous game.

I have been playing since 1981.  Believe it or not, the person who taught me to play was the assistant pastor of my church!

WHen he was in the Seminary (1979 if I remember right), he had to do a report on a current topic that dealt with religion.  He decided to do it on the "new controversial" game of Dungeons And Dragons.  But instead of just looking at the information put out by the Fundamentalist groups, he went to a game store and asked what it was all about.

They taught him how to play, and he saw that it could actually be used in a good way.  In the games he hosted, the players were ALWAYS good, and were on quests to defeat evil.  He often made great moral situations, which made us look at things in another way.

RPG games (just like Goth, Heavy Metal, etc) can be dangerous.  I have played with people who actually became violent when their characters died.  These are people that have no business playing games like that.  Just like kids with drug and depression problems should probably not listen to heavy metal songs that endorse suicide.

Myself, I have only played for a short while with a group here in my new home town.  I was the only "good" character, and everybody decided they wanted to be evil.  After 3 weeks, they did something I though was very inappropriate during a game, and I walked out.  Even if it is "just a game", I refuse to stand by and watch some things happen.

I was the only "good" character, and everybody decided they wanted to be evil.  After 3 weeks, they did something I though was very inappropriate during a game, and I walked out.  Even if it is "just a game", I refuse to stand by and watch some things happen.


I applaud you for your decision.

I would say that I also applaud your decision, but I'm curious as to what it was that they did before you walked out.


Well, in trying to get some information out of a female they had captured, they would torture her, then gang rape her.  While that may be "in keeping with their characters", I thought it was extreemly inappropriate for a game.  For me, this was the final straw, and I walked out.

The week before, I had admonished them because of actions they had done.  After working hard to arrange a temporary truce, they decided to break it without consulting me at all.  Without warning, they attacked the person that I was trying to negotiate with.  Since you seem to know RPG play, that is not the action of a "Lawful" player, either Good or Evil.

To me, that was the final straw.  When the "game" becomes about torture and rape, I want nothing to do with it.  I play for relaxation and escape.  That is not an appropriate sort of scenario for a game, especially when one of the players was 17 years old.


As for the good and evil thing, one of the best things about RPG's like that are that you can be anybody that you want to be, and not worry about the law ((outside of the game)) or your conscience. As long as you know that it's still only a fictional world, you can be say... an assassin that travels in the night to carry out his enigmatic master's orders, or a ghostly necromancer, raising his armies of the dead to overcome the evil dragon for reasons that no-one knows.


I do understand that.  But there is also a level of "appropriateness" that should be involved.  When 3 of the 5 players decide there is nothing wrong "in character" to participate in a gang rape, it is not the type of group I want to play with.

I salute you for that, Mushroom. Way to respect. You keep it real!

rape has no place in an RPG game, that group was very immature. i was once in a campaign where something like that happened, i never came back to that person's game and i told him why.

Christians *DO* believe in reincarnation.  But it is *NOT* a reincarnation like the Eastern religions believe.  They believe in a reincarnation and another life in Heaven, not on Earth.

Mainstream Christianity does not acknowledge reincarnation. The idea that you have described is called 'resurrection.' The two terms and beliefs differ wholly. According to Christian belief, when the soul is judged to be 'good' and enters heaven, it is not taking on another life form, it is a direct product of one life on Earth and one only. Reincarnation is not simply defined as 'more than one life.' It describes specifically a process by which a soul assumes a bodily form, repeatedly. This is not part of the Christian dogma, one's soul, be it in heaven, purgatory, or hell -- has come from one body and will not enter another, presumably.

As for the good and evil thing, one of the best things about RPG's like that are that you can be anybody that you want to be, and not worry about the law ((outside of the game)).


Well, that depends on the game.

Dungeons & Dragons owes it's original concept to 2 fantasy authors:  J.R.R. Tolkien and Michael Moorcock.

The game has a more complex "alignment" system then most fantasy games do.  There is both "Good and Evil", and "Law and Chaos".

This makes for a much more interesting way to look at people.  Somebody like Adolph Hitler would be considered "Lawful Evil", because he achieved power legally, and he actually did work largely in a Lawful way, even if he was evil.  Even Satan would be Lawful Evil, because of the legend of "contracts" and rules he has to obey before he can take a person's soul.  Richard Ramierez or Charles Manson would be Chaotic Evil, having no set goals and following no rules other then their own.

Because the characters were "Lawful Evil", breaking agreements is NOT allowed.  Technically the rape and torture would have been allowed.  I left the game because of the "sloppy playing", and because I was disgusted with the people in the group.  To me, slogging through a dungeon killing monsters is a fun escape hobby.  Describing the torture and rape of non-player characters is not my idea of fun.

Carlos, now that you have your definition of the occult, I am sure you will have an even harder time coming to terms with why the Abrahamic religions are not included therein. I think they should be.

Other religions such as Wicca or other neopagan practices are included as part of the occult because, unlike the Abrahamics, these religions embrace the supernatural. Where a Catholic priest would be abhorred by the idea of talking with ghosts and attempting to divine the future, a practitioner of an "occult" religion, such as Wicca, would relish the opportunity.

That's my take on the matter. Now, how one could mistake things like holy ghosts and angels and resurrection as somehow being non-supernatural is quite beyond me. I share your bafflement.

Mainstream Christianity does not acknowledge reincarnation. The idea that you have described is called 'resurrection.'


Actually, I use the term "reincarnation" in the way it was used during the time of Jesus.

Jesus was more then likely an Essene.  The Essenes were a group of Jews who lived in the area where Jesus grew up and started his ministry.  It is also why he had such strong disagreements with the Sadducees.  The Sadducees did not believe in any form of afterlife.

In addition, a great many of his teachings follow those of the Essenes.  Some of their beliefs were simple clean living, "comunal" living, and life after death.

The other major faction in Jewish faith at the time were the Pharisees.  They believed in reincarnation, and the historian Josephus described it as follows:

Every soul, they (the Pharisees!) maintain, is imperishable, but the soul of the good alone passes into another body, while the souls of the wicked suffer eternal punishment.

The term both the Pharisees and Josephus use is "reincarnation".  But as I said before, it was a "reincarnation in Heaven", or as you said, resurection.  Remember, we are talking of a time before the current language and terminology existed.

Carlos, now that you have your definition of the occult, I am sure you will have an even harder time coming to terms with why the Abrahamic religions are not included therein. I think they should be.

Other religions such as Wicca or other neopagan practices are included as part of the occult because, unlike the Abrahamics, these religions embrace the supernatural. Where a Catholic priest would be abhorred by the idea of talking with ghosts and attempting to divine the future, a practitioner of an "occult" religion, such as Wicca, would relish the opportunity.

That's my take on the matter. Now, how one could mistake things like holy ghosts and angels and resurrection as somehow being non-supernatural is quite beyond me. I share your bafflement.

I consider all spirituality "supernatural."  The term usually implies ghosts, witches, vampires, and weird phenomenon.  However the prefix super simplies means "above," or "beyond."  The "natural" world, IMHO, is that which is scientifically tangible.  "God" by any name still is not.  That does not deny the existence of God.

I consider all spirituality "supernatural."  The term usually implies ghosts, witches, vampires, and weird phenomenon.  However the prefix super simplies means "above," or "beyond."  The "natural" world, IMHO, is that which is scientifically tangible.  "God" by any name still is not.  That does not deny the existence of God.


Congrats on your 2000th post, Maxwell.

Congrats on your 2000th post, Maxwell.

Oh, yeah, I didn't notice that.  The total is actually more like 3500.  When Chucky switched us over to the new program, we all went back to zero.  I think that was in April.  Our old board was full of bugs.

Oh, yeah, I didn't notice that.  The total is actually more like 3500.  When Chucky switched us over to the new program, we all went back to zero.  I think that was in April.  Our old board was full of bugs.


Oh. Guess it was worth it to lose some posts to get a better system. Did the old board look like this one?

Oh. Guess it was worth it to lose some posts to get a better system. Did the old board look like this one?

There are probably names for these layouts, I don't know them though.  IMO, the old one was more "fun and colorful," while this one is more "formal and classy."
That old one had to go, the boards kept freezing up, refusing to open, and doing other annoying stuff.
8)

What's even scarier is to think of what these "people" might do in a real life situation where they wanted something from a woman :o



Scary indeed.... Respect A Lady's Virtues or GO TO HELL!

Flippin' eck Mushroom. When I heard you left a game because people were being bad, initially I thought you were being a little priggish. However, gang-rape and torture has no place anywhere and I would have done exactly the same as you in that situation. Good for you for sticking to the logistics of the game system and for sticking up for your morals.  :)

Flippin' eck Mushroom. When I heard you left a game because people were being bad, initially I thought you were being a little priggish. However, gang-rape and torture has no place anywhere and I would have done exactly the same as you in that situation. Good for you for sticking to the logistics of the game system and for sticking up for your morals.  :)


Well, that is why I try to stick to D&D, and play Neutral or Good characters.  I find it much more enjoyable, and a lot more relaxing without all the backstabbing that evil groups tend to get involved in.

This is also why I do not play games like Vampire: The Masquerade.  Those tend to be very dark, evil, and sinister.  Playing a creature that must kill on a regular basis in order to live is not my idea of fun.

As far as RPG's, I have played many more then I could ever count.  Let's see if I can make up a short list from when I started in around 1981:

Dungeons & Dragons (1st, 2nd, and 4rd editions)
Chainmail (D&D Pre-first edition basically)
Tunnels & Trolls (only used 6 sided dice, lots of solo dungeons)
Boot Hill  (Wild West style)
Top Secret  (James Bond type role playing, featured in the movie "Cloak & Dagger")
Gamma World  (Post WWIII nuclear holocost)
Bushido  (Feudal Japanese setting)
Bunnies & Burrows  (Based off of "Watership Down")
Car Wars  (Demo derby on the streets of the US, with machine guns and rocket launchers)
Champions  (Superheros and mutants)
GURPS (Universal system, could fit any time and setting with little work)
Steve Jackson's Universal Role Playing Game System (A pre-GURPS system)
Star Trek
Traveller  (Futureistic, with spaceships and planets)
Runequest  (Like D&D, but 100 time more complex)
Dragonquest  (Simple version of Runequest, only 10 times more complex then D&D)
Hero Systems  (Another Universal system)
Paranoia  (Hard to describe.  You are on a spaceship, but you do not know it.  Funny-sick)
Call Of Cthulhu  (Based off the books, 1920's with monsters)
Man Of Bronze (I do not think it got out of Beta.  Based on Doc Savage books)
Vampire: The Masquerade  (Popular now with the Goth group)
Twilight 2000  (Another Post WWIII)
Shadowrun  (Started Post WWIII, now a universal system)
Battlestar Galactica (This never made it out of the Beta Test phase that I know of)
Mutants & Masterminds  (Newer version of Champions, but more towards Mutants)
Sailor Moon (don't laugh, it was done as a dare)

And there were a bunch more I can neither remember anymore, or never made it out of Beta Test.

Needless to say, most of those systems are long gone now.

mushroom, i played over half of those games....as to alignments, our group trashed them, there unrealistic and too rigid (i believe in moral ambiguity). as to V:tM, i loved that game.

I must admit that I haven't read every post on this thread, but I did read the definition of "the occult" and posts that responded to it.  So let me pose another question, and I will return more frequently to see the answers.  Do any of you really believe that God spoke to Abraham, or Moses?  How would you respond if your girl friend came to you and told you she was pregnant and that God did it?  How would you respond to Mohammed if he came to you and said "God told me that we must all go to Mecca"? 

I know that many people here are religious, and I don't mean to be offensive, there is much that is positive in religion, but from my point of view, it has been a much more negative force in history than a positive one, and that is especially true of the revealed religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) than the others.

In any case, I think it is clear that all religion can be defined as "occult".  Especially the revealed religions depend on the idea that God talks to certain people.  What can be more occult that that?

That's why I think that I have the best religion there is. I learned it from the movie Dogma. For those of you that haven't seen it, there's a part where Rufus (Chris Rock) is talking about religion, and he says that he thinks that we "got it all wrong taking a good idea and building a belief structure on it. It's easy to change an idea. Changing a belief, though, is a little bit trickier."

So I thought about it, and came up with my religion. I call it Singulatarian, because I'm the only one with it. It's based off Christianity, but I have my own theories mixed up with the bunch.


Sounds a lot like my Absorbism...