Just because you have a kid in this country should NOT entitle them to AMerican rights!
Too many jump across our borders and the kid gets whatever we offer and hangs around with the illegal entrants OR the people here on VISAS ....Just not right!

Yeah, tell it to the Indians, Saver.
::)

Just because you have a kid in this country should NOT entitle them to AMerican rights!
Too many jump across our borders and the kid gets whatever we offer and hangs around with the illegal entrants OR the people here on VISAS ....Just not right!


You might want to read the words enscribed on the plaque at the Statue of LIBERTY.  Something about welcoming the "huddled masses" to whom we extend the becon of liberty, or is that for whites only?

I thought the statue of liberty was A GIFT from France????

If we adopted its' words...we are talking LEGALLY here.

Before there were indians someone else was here as well..how far are we to go?

Someone is making decisions adhering to the constitution nad wanting to change to get the non  US  born citizens to be  able to be presidential candidates..let's work on NOT GIVING away money to those who run across our borders and leaving an anchor to support!

Many immigrants here legally and not by visas and sneaking in....they are the entitled.

I thought the statue of liberty was A GIFT from France????

If we adopted its' words...we are talking LEGALLY here.

Before there were indians someone else was here as well..how far are we to go?

Someone is making decisions adhering to the constitution nad wanting to change to get the non  US  born citizens to be  able to be presidential candidates..let's work on NOT GIVING away money to those who run across our borders and leaving an anchor to support!

Many immigrants here legally and not by visas and sneaking in....they are the entitled.

Who was here "before" the Indians?
:D

The only way we are going to stop illegal immigration from Latin America is to enable those countries to become more livable for more of their populations.  Even if you provided absolutely no state benefits for immigrants, even if you took away native born right of citizenship, they would still risk all to come to America.  Life in Latin America is so miserable for so many millions that ANY kind of life north of the Rio Grande seems preferable.  European and American exploitation of Latin America over the centuries, and contemporary U.S. foreign policy and business interests play a significant role in the deteriorated condition of Latin America's economic and social fabric.

Yeah, I'd like to know who was here before the Native Americans?

Tanya

Can someone tell me the argument for ILLEGAL immigration?

give people opportunity they wouldn't otherwise have

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This poem was written by EMMA LAZARUS to raise money to build the pedestal that the statue stands upon. It is now engraved on a plaque on the pedestal, not the statue itself.

An American wrote the poem, Not the French who built the statue.

It is a beautiful concept, but I agree, illegal immigration poses a far too large security risk, and a huge strain on our economy and criminal justice systems.

I don't think our foreign pollicy has much to do with their hardships. I'd say a big part of the problem is corruption in their government

Someone is making decisions adhering to the constitution nad wanting to change to get the non  US  born citizens to be  able to be presidential candidates...

Someone's "making the bed" for The Terminator to run for president in the very near future.

Why is it that whenever people complain about immigration it is 99% of the time about Latinos.  I work
in construction here in Massachusetts and I will tell you that there is a huge community of illegal Irish and when I mention that it seems to be a "well, that's different" attitude.  The double edge of that is the illegal Irish see the ugliness in the attitude and can't understand why americans are so racist.  They find it
unbelievably small minded and offensive.  I have worked with a lot of recent immagrants(legal and not so legal) of many different nationalities and I say that I would trade one for one for some of our homegrown "citizens".

Why is it that whenever people complain about immigration it is 99% of the time about Latinos. 


I wonder why?  Maybe because it's mostly the mexicans doing it.  Taking up, at last look, 28% of our jail cells, using our healthcare, costing taxpayers God knows how much.  These people don't come here to work, they come here to work the system.  And Bush is selling us out to these people, trying to give them amnesty, something his own dam* party doesn't back him on.  Why our southern and northern borders today are more lax then they were before 9/11 is beyond me.  Bush Sr., Clinton, and the current Bush will not defend our borders.  They won't defend our language...try using an ATM...English or Spanish?  I'm tired off it.  Close the dam* borders already.

They won't defend our language...try using an ATM...English or Spanish?  I'm tired off it.


That's not politics, that is marketing. What our government should do first is stop exporting our
jobs, or stipulate that if you want to be an american company then you should run your business
from here, pay your taxes here, have employees here, and pay "outsourced" employees an equitable
pay.  If the "american" companies in Mexico payed a fare Mexican wage then you wouldn't so
many risking death to come here looking for the Yankee dollar, and that is what immigration has
always been about.

Can someone tell me the argument for ILLEGAL immigration?


There is no argument for illegal immigration, but what you fail to recognize is that many members of the business community employ illegals and therefore encourage illegal immigration.

Oh, and your rant about how much they cost tax payers is just not accurate.  Illegals work (usually for substandard wages), and don't usually collect "safty net" benefits because they are "undocumented" and fear extradition.  They do pay taxes though.

There is no argument for illegal immigration, but what you fail to recognize is that many members of the business community employ illegals and therefore encourage illegal immigration.



What can I say?  This people keep hiring these people, you're right.  They won't stop coming here until we either:

A. Close the borders fully.  The new intelligence reform bill adds 10,000 new border patrol agents over the next five years.  Frankly that is NOTHING.  We need 100,000 now, preferably national guard.  And we need to stop letting illegals barley in this country get away.  Did you know that once an illegal alien is 30 FEET into this country, border patrol can no longer grab them.  That is Bullsh**.

B. Punish all people who hire illegal aliens.  No excuse for it.

--It all goes back to the Michael Savage argument.  Borders, language, and culture.  Illegal immigration is a threat to our nations's borders, our nation's language, and our nation's culture.

There is no way the "borders" can be fully taken care of NOrth or South as so far they have 1  guard for every 40 miles up North.

The reason I see it is a problem is YES, the people hiring the illegals should and (some) are being punished. But they still come and get the US help.

We must make it 'not' attractive to come here...as mentioned some are paying taxes BUT the bulk of the money made by some is most likely being SENT BACK to Mexico to support their relatives.(in the case of Mexican Illegals).

I also stopped by the MADE IN CHINA Walmart(or any store products)...recently bought Christmas cards that said 'Much Hapiness this Christmas'....(caught the misspelling and found it was MADE IN CHINA!)...

The immagrants are coming  HERE for a better life away from their countries,So V. Fox should figure a way to make HIS COUNTRYMEN happier so they won't run off!
 

That's not politics, that is marketing. What our government should do first is stop exporting our
jobs, or stipulate that if you want to be an american company then you should run your business
from here, pay your taxes here, have employees here, and pay "outsourced" employees an equitable
pay.  If the "american" companies in Mexico payed a fare Mexican wage then you wouldn't so
many risking death to come here looking for the Yankee dollar, and that is what immigration has
always been about.


Why should the American government regulate Mexican wages?  Doesn't Mexico have its own government? ???

I do agree with your tax comments though...

What can I say?  This people keep hiring these people, you're right.  They won't stop coming here until we either:

A. Close the borders fully.  The new intelligence reform bill adds 10,000 new border patrol agents over the next five years.  Frankly that is NOTHING.  We need 100,000 now, preferably national guard.  And we need to stop letting illegals barley in this country get away.  Did you know that once an illegal alien is 30 FEET into this country, border patrol can no longer grab them.  That is Bullsh**.

B. Punish all people who hire illegal aliens.  No excuse for it.

--It all goes back to the Michael Savage argument.  Borders, language, and culture.  Illegal immigration is a threat to our nations's borders, our nation's language, and our nation's culture.

I listen to Savage because the guy's hysterical...literally and figuratively.  Sheesh.  It's like watching the raging paranoid schizophrenics that sometimes descend on the Boston Common!  But please, you can't tell me you take hime seriously?  I mean, the guy needs a Thorazine drip.

Right-wingers fundamentally fail to understand human beings who don't conform to their rigid definitions of  "the way things ought to be."  This is why Archie Bunker never goes out of date!
::)

  Borders, language, and culture.  Illegal immigration is a threat to our nations's borders, our nation's language, and our nation's culture.


Oh stop it GW, that argument is an old one that goes back to the immigration of the Irish, Italians, Jews, and was even used as an argument against emancipation of the slaves, and voters rights for women and minorities.  Dig out some old newspapers from the 1800's, it is all there. 

Thanks Danoot, you beat me to it.

By the way, did you know that the only people made citizens by act of congress are people of color?  Black people by the 14 th amendment and Puerto Ricans by the Jones Act.  I guess you white folks really do like us darkies after all.

Why should the American government regulate Mexican wages?  Doesn't Mexico have its own government? ???



I was thinking about what I wrote and realized I had gone a bit out of the way with that, but I do think that a company like nike, who calls itself an American company but doesn't produce anything in the USA, and is known for shady labor practices involving children,  should be differentiated in some way from an American company that produces at least part of its product here.  I am one of those "made in America" types, though not hard line, who will not knowingly purchase products from companies who exploit workers, especially American companies who exploit on foreign shores. I would also add that if I was a Mexican and my whole family, including my children had to work in order to subsist, and that is what these people do, subsist, I would swim the river and do what it takes to try to make it better for them, and I would bet that everyone on this board would do the same for theirs.

Thanks Danoot, you beat me to it.

By the way, did you know that the only people made citizens by act of congress are people of color?  Black people by the 14 th amendment and Puerto Ricans by the Jones Act.  I guess you white folks really do like us darkies after all.


Yep,that would be my great grandparents.  They of course were not expected to ever attain a level of knowledge to be able to understand the ramifications of the voting process, and lord knows they would have to be forced to do a days work. How they ever were able to afford there own homes, send there children to school (in bathed and in clean clothes)and produce offspring that include engineers, teachers, photographers, and foreign service workers who are generally very nice people is a wonder, given the genetic predispositon to doing as little as possible and living off of the state. ::)

What can I say?  This people keep hiring these people, you're right.  They won't stop coming here until we either:

A. Close the borders fully.  The new intelligence reform bill adds 10,000 new border patrol agents over the next five years.  Frankly that is NOTHING.  We need 100,000 now, preferably national guard.  And we need to stop letting illegals barley in this country get away.  Did you know that once an illegal alien is 30 FEET into this country, border patrol can no longer grab them.  That is Bullsh**.

B. Punish all people who hire illegal aliens.  No excuse for it.

--It all goes back to the Michael Savage argument.  Borders, language, and culture.  Illegal immigration is a threat to our nations's borders, our nation's language, and our nation's culture.
I agree that we need to do a much better job of securing our borders, especially for reasons of national security. (How many Al-Qaeda agents have already slipped across our Southern borders undetected?)  But please explain to me why President Bush insists on letting MORE Mexiican immigrants in as "guest workers" (and giving amnesty to illegal immigrants who are already here!), while in the meantime so many U.S. corporations contnue to ship their manufacturing operations south of the border.

I agree that we need to do a much better job of securing our borders, especially for reasons of national security. (How many Al-Qaeda agents have already slipped across our Southern borders undetected?)  But please explain to me why President Bush insists on letting MORE Mexiican immigrants in as "guest workers" (and giving amnesty to illegal immigrants who are already here!), while in the meantime so many U.S. corporations contnue to ship their manufacturing operations south of the border.

It's like President Coolidge said, "The business of America is Business," and what's good for "business" must be good for America, right?

I agree with you 100%. Infact, a huge majority of Americans agree with you. Unfortunatley, our elected leaders don't care what the majority thinks anymore.
There are alot of liberals on this board who think it's O.K. to break the law. So, liberals, when a law has been broken and you are the victim don't call the cops. 

Thanks Danoot, you beat me to it.

By the way, did you know that the only people made citizens by act of congress are people of color?  Black people by the 14 th amendment and Puerto Ricans by the Jones Act.  I guess you white folks really do like us darkies after all.


:D :D :D :D  HAHAHAHA     :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(  WAWAWAWA
Why is it when White Folks as you like to call us, or Whitey or what ever disagree with you darkies it's always comes out as Whitey is racist. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. That is so OLD son. Find something new to call us.     

:D :D :D :D  HAHAHAHA     :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(  WAWAWAWA
Why is it when White Folks as you like to call us, or Whitey or what ever disagree with you darkies it's always comes out as Whitey is racist. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. That is so OLD son. Find something new to call us.     


Trust me, there are plenty!  :D But, I guess "Whitey" has a certain ring to it. Though I like Pinky myself!  ;D

Tanya

:D :D :D :D  HAHAHAHA     :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(  WAWAWAWA
Why is it when White Folks as you like to call us, or Whitey or what ever disagree with you darkies it's always comes out as Whitey is racist. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. That is so OLD son. Find something new to call us.     

Oh go take a flying leap at the moon!
::)

Trust me, there are plenty!  :D But, I guess "Whitey" has a certain ring to it. Though I like Pinky myself!  ;D

Tanya

Yeah, who ever heard of wearing a "whitey" ring?  Arf arf arf!
;D

Myself, there is only one word that matters in this discussion: ILLEGAL.

There are quotas placed according to many things on immigrants from different countries.  And in most cases, there are waiting lists to get in.  It is not that they are not welcome, to me it is simply the fact that this country can only absorb so many people at a time.

Until the last 100 years, most of the country was uninhabited countryside, and most people worked on farms.  So taking in 10,000 new immigrants was not a problem at all.  Because most of the work was agricultural on family farms, there were a lot of places to move to.

But in the last 100 years, we have moved from an agrarian culture to an industrial one.  Instead of moving to the countryside, immigrants tend to stay in the large cities and congregate in seperate communities.  We still let in a lot of immigrants, but we simply can't take in everybody who wants to immigrate.

I like the idea that Bush has proposed myself.  Simply allow more worker visas.  This will let them in legally to work, then they are free to come and go as they wish.  This will take a lot of the stress off because of "Illegals".  After all, what percentage really want to stay here in the US forever?  Probably 50% of the "illegals" only want to make money, and eventually go home to Mexico.  Why not let them do it on a long-term plan, without punishing them?  I am all for this myself.

As for changing the laws for "Citizenship By Birth", I support this.  It is a loophole that a lot of people exploit to stay in this country.  A simple change would be that if the parents were legal immigrants (or in the process of becomming legal), they should be considered citizens.  If they are here either without legal status or on a temporary/visitors visa, they should NOT be considered citizens of the US, but of the home country of their parents.

Personally, I think immigration is great.  The country is a nation of immigrants.  We took the rejects in from all over the world, and then blended them together and came out with the best country in the world.  And where else but here can you find an Irish-French-English-Scottish-German-Indian American?

I love the way conservatives always want to adhere to the the founding documents of yore, until it's inconvenient for their interests.

No, we will not deny the right citizenship to those born on U.S. soil, and no, we will not change the Constitutions so Ahhnold can run for President!

Personally, I want a land of opportunity for every Chicano baby born in Brownsville, and send Ahhnold back home to Wiener Town!

I love the way conservatives always want to adhere to the the founding documents of yore, until it's inconvenient for their interests.

No, we will not deny the right citizenship to those born on U.S. soil, and no, we will not change the Constitutions so Ahhnold can run for President!

Personally, I want a land of opportunity for every Chicano baby born in Brownsville, and send Ahhnold back home to Wiener Town!


Myself, I have supported this type of change for a long time.

It is interesting, how so many want to think of the Constituion as a living document.  They think that it can be re-interpreted in any way they want.  The Pledge Of Allegiance?  Oh no, that is now school prayer, which is against the Constitution.  Guns?  Oh no, that is not what they meant, make them illegal.  But when people want to make a real change (not just a reintrepetation), they get all bent out of shape about it.

Notice the way I said it.  My step-daughter was born to an immigrant, who was a single mother.  But she was here on a legal visa at the time.  Therefore, under what I propose, she would still be considered a legal citizen.

I have no problem with immigration.  It is only with ILLEGAL immigration I have a problem.  In fact, a lot of Legals also have problems with the illegals.  They wait patiently in line to fill out the papers and get an opening.  Yet they get no benefit over somebody who walks across the border, then delivers a child up here.  This is grossly unfair to them.  In fact, my ex-wife is even more against Illegal Immigration then I am!  And she immigrated to the US when she was 16.

Myself, I have supported this type of change for a long time.

It is interesting, how so many want to think of the Constituion as a living document.  They think that it can be re-interpreted in any way they want.  The Pledge Of Allegiance?  Oh no, that is now school prayer, which is against the Constitution.  Guns?  Oh no, that is not what they meant, make them illegal.  But when people want to make a real change (not just a reintrepetation), they get all bent out of shape about it.

Notice the way I said it.  My step-daughter was born to an immigrant, who was a single mother.  But she was here on a legal visa at the time.  Therefore, under what I propose, she would still be considered a legal citizen.

I have no problem with immigration.  It is only with ILLEGAL immigration I have a problem.  In fact, a lot of Legals also have problems with the illegals.  They wait patiently in line to fill out the papers and get an opening.  Yet they get no benefit over somebody who walks across the border, then delivers a child up here.  This is grossly unfair to them.  In fact, my ex-wife is even more against Illegal Immigration then I am!  And she immigrated to the US when she was 16.

If the USA can honestly claim--and it cannot--that it has nothing to do with conditions in Latin America being such that women risk their necks to illegally migrate to America in order to a bear a child on our soil, then I might be in favor of amending the Constitution.

Furthermore, I do see the Constituon as a living document.  It is, to the say the least, absurd to call the Constitution a dead piece of parchment from the 18th Century which we must obey by the implacable text though the sky falls.  Come on!
Anyway, that "strict constructionist" jive is just an updated euphemism for "white male supremacy."
::)

No, we will not deny the right citizenship to those born on U.S. soil, and no, we will not change the Constitutions so Ahhnold can run for President!

Personally, I want a land of opportunity for every Chicano baby born in Brownsville, and send Ahhnold back home to Wiener Town!


Maybe the giving the "legaglly" born American baby is okay but to come here, have a kid while on a VISA or sneaking in is "dirty pool" an should be untolerated!

They not only get American benefits thanks to someone breaking the law coming ere but THEIR PARENTS and family become the ANCHOR to give the whole lot to stay because someone has to take care of the kid and we wouldn't kick the mother out.

It only makes sense..everyone understands how it would work why don't the ILLEGALS??

Maybe the giving the "legaglly" born American baby is okay but to come here, have a kid while on a VISA or sneaking in is "dirty pool" an should be untolerated!

They not only get American benefits thanks to someone breaking the law coming ere but THEIR PARENTS and family become the ANCHOR to give the whole lot to stay because someone has to take care of the kid and we wouldn't kick the mother out.

It only makes sense..everyone understands how it would work why don't the ILLEGALS??

::) ::) ::)