The Tories have set out a four-phase plan to "substantially" cut the number of illegal immigrants seeking asylum in this country.

Michael Howard, the Conservative leader, failed to give a figure for the reduced numbers, and did not mention which countries would likely to be most hit by the reductions.

But he accused the current system of being "unfair and chaotic".

He said the new system would take in more genuine refugees.

"Immigration cannot continue at the current levels," he said during a press conference in London today.

"The pace of change is simply too great at present. I believe we must set a limit on immigration."

The new system would ensure national security, community integration and economic prosperity, he claimed.

The reform would cover three areas, including asylum, work permits and family reunion.

He called for "firm but fair" work permit controls based on the Australian system of setting limits for those seeking employment.

"I know what needs to be done, and I have the political will to do it."

The four phases, outlined by David Davis, the Shadow home secretary, would appear in the first Queen's Speech of a Conservative Government.

They would include:

Pulling out of the 1951 Convention on Refugees, which is outdated, Mr Davis said.
The power for a Home Secretary to immediately remove unfounded cases such as people who have destroyed their documents, those who incite racial hatred, those who pose a threat to public order and those not being persecuted by the country they have come from.
Increased security checks to reduce numbers coming in.
The Government will no longer consider application made in this country but only through the UNHCR.
Mr Davis said an annual limit would be placed which would afford "transparency and accountability".

Earlier in the day, Mr Howard had strongly denied accusations that his proposals are racist.

Trevor Phillips, Commission for Racial Equality chairman, voiced concerns about the language used by the Conservative leader and questioned who he wanted to keep out.

"The largest single group of migrants into this country are from the EU, Australia, New Zealand and the United States,'' he told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.

However, Mr Howard said any implication that the proposals were about skin colour were "a disgraceful allegation which I wholly reject''.

"This is not to do with race,'' he said.

"That is a disgraceful allegation that has no basis whatever in fact.''

"We have to be able to debate this matter without having the kind of accusation which you have just put to me.''

An advert taken out in The Sunday Telegraph to announce the new policy used the language of the Government's own Community Cohesion Panel, he said.



Right... now please tell me where the Racism is in that. To me it seems like a very sensible policy, we are a country smaller than the state of Illinois and yet have over 60 Million citizens.. we don't freakin' need any more.

Once again Howard is bashed by the PC Mob.. when will it ever end.

I'd like to know if we can backdate the changes, so that Howard can be deported...

No, it's not racist - but it is playing on fears which are based on a wholly inaccurate view of immigration.  And it could so easily become racist in its application (but then, so is the current state of affairs, so no change there)

Oh? And the British don't have any history of showing up in other people's countries unwanted?
;D

Oh? And the British don't have any history of showing up in other people's countries unwanted?
;D


Well...the sun used to never set on the British empire.

As for Michael Howard, he's right.  If only Bush would stop the wave of illegal aliens invading daily from the US southern border.  These people costs us billions in health care, policing, deporting, schooling, welfare, and the costs of them being in jail.  Illegal aliens take up about 28% of American jails, yet both parties will not stop pandering to the latino vote and think about what the majority of Americans want.  More border patrol, even add the army and national guard to our border for security, these people are rapidly chaning our culture, and it's not for the better.  These people take jobs from Americans, and don't pay taxes, and instead of spending their "earned" money here in the US, they send it back to Mexico, which is why the President of Mexico, Fox, won't stop them.  CLOSE THE BORDERS!  Most Americans want it!

If only Bush would follow Howard.

I have to agree with GW. It's ridiculous over here in California. It's so bad that CA's schools have become the third state with the worse schools. Why is it so? Well, we have a large immigrant population here that send their illiterate children to schools. They have so many educational problems that teachers (including me) forfeit adequate time to serve English-speaking children? Who suffers? They do because instead of getting what is rightfully owed to them, I have stop what I'm doing to help Juan, etc. learn five basic reading words in the middle of January when I introduced them in September!

Sorry for the rant. I'm just tired of this problem.

Tanya

Whether the borders are open or closed, just remember we are ALL wetbacks as far as the corporate ruling class is concerned.  The vision of the business elites has the class stratification of America looking much more like Mexico today than the U.S. yesterday.

Yes, but let us at least think we have a chance Maxwell.

I don't want to close the Borders, i just want people who are going to help the country to be allowed in. This is by no means a racist policy, so many of England's Doctors are Sikhs & Hinduhs, well they are gonna be allowed in as long as they can prove they want to work (and culturally working is a big thing for them). Many eastern Europeans have high craftsman like skills.. sure let 'em in. I just don't want the useless bunch who come in and immediatly go on to Welfare being allowed in. If they are gonna work and will follow our rules and culture, then hell, stick 'em in my spare room until they have a place.
If they aren't willing to do those things.. well then toss em back in the English Channel.

I just don't want the useless bunch who come in and immediatly go on to Welfare being allowed in. If they are gonna work and will follow our rules and culture, then hell, stick 'em in my spare room until they have a place.
If they aren't willing to do those things.. well then toss em back in the English Channel.

I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority will work when allowed: one of the most idiotic things about the rules we have at the moment is that asylum seekers aren't allowed to work, whether they want to or not.

True.. which is one reason we need to allow less in (at least for a set period of time) so there applications can be processed in a reasonable amount of time.

Another of my pet peeves that i touched upon is immigrants not following out culture.. i am fine with them having there own religions and religious holidays etc.. i am a minority, as a roman catholic i am actually considerd a minority which rules because many companies will give me like good friday, ash wednesday etc off.

Anywho one of my main peeves is the muslim women who walk around in there 'Burkhas' (is that the correct spelling?) NO NO NO! this is not an Islamic country and as such they should follow our customs and culture, at least to a certian degree.

There was a big furore a few years ago because a muslim woman refused to take off her head covering for her driving license picture to be taken.. and here is the thing. She wasn't just told do it or you can't drive.. no no no.. they had to negotiate with her. I cannot walk in to a lot of places with a Baseball cap on because it hides my face slightly from CCTV and yet this woman had to be negotiated with about removing something that made her unrecognisable.. no.. not cool!

Well...the sun used to never set on the British empire.

As for Michael Howard, he's right.  If only Bush would stop the wave of illegal aliens invading daily from the US southern border.  These people costs us billions in health care, policing, deporting, schooling, welfare, and the costs of them being in jail.  Illegal aliens take up about 28% of American jails, yet both parties will not stop pandering to the latino vote and think about what the majority of Americans want.  More border patrol, even add the army and national guard to our border for security, these people are rapidly chaning our culture, and it's not for the better.  These people take jobs from Americans, and don't pay taxes, and instead of spending their "earned" money here in the US, they send it back to Mexico, which is why the President of Mexico, Fox, won't stop them.  CLOSE THE BORDERS!  Most Americans want it!

If only Bush would follow Howard.


And when did your ancestors enter this country?  As Paul Rodriguz pointed out, wityh many Mexican Americans, they didn't cross the boarder, the boarder crossed them - and mostly to their detriment.

On the cultural issue, if gringo "culture" is so great, than why are you affraid of it being diluted?  Seems to me we hispanics would jump at it.  Your music is so cool (we play both kinds of music, country AND western), your "shoulder dancing" is so graceful and refined (unlike our more vulgar hip movements), your lack of emotion is so much better than our passion,  one would think we would jump at the chance to emulate you.

You should also get your facts straight.  undocumented workers DO pay taxes.  They also work for substandard wages, don't apply for welfare,  and get royally ripped off by the unscrupulous emplyer that hire them, knowing that if they gripe, they are likely to get kicked out.

And one last thing - can you recite the poem inscribed on the Statue of LIBERTY?

Oh, and this.  In several threads I have responded to some of our conservative friends' questions, but I notice that a number of my quewstions to them remain unanswered.  Why is that?

I've got no problem with genuine asylum seekers entering our country, as long as they follow our procedures. What bugs me is the legion of 'health tourists' we seem to have inherited; over the last few years, there seems to have been a massive upsurge in the amount of people who temporarily migrate here to take advantage of our services & benefits, without putting anything back in. I've got no problem with people coming here to work, either, as long as they're 'part of the system'. Currently it seems there is a booming black market trade in bringing in migrant workers illegally & employing them for a pittance; these people are using our resources without paying any tax, yet as soon as one of them ends up in hospital or prison, the good ol' Brit taxpayer foots the bill again.

Our whole system is f***ed. A retiring chief of the Bristol police has commented recently, saying he was fed up of arresting the same people, then holding them in custody for ages until they're deported, only to have the same people turn up a week later to continue their crimewave. We're talking about known gun & drug criminals here- if we can't even keep them out, what hope have we got of ever controlling admission to our country?

We have over one million Illegal immigrants in the country according to the latest home office figures... and all they have contributed is TB.

If you are an illegal you don't pay tax but as pointed out it is possible to claim some benefits and work cash in hand if you work through the loopholes (which they do)..

I don't understand how an "undocumented" worker can pay taxes...if you don't have documentation, then how?  You need an identification number in order to pay taxes...if you're here illegally, you don't have one.  None of the illegals I know pay taxes, and that's quite a few.  And, yes, they DO apply for welfare.  If someone comes into our country & has a baby, that child is an American citizen.  The government cannot deport the child without due cause (which is HIGHLY unlikely with a small child) and cannot deport the parents because it would basically be making the child an orphan.  In many cases, the parents are working for cash and both they and the child receive welfare.

IMO, if you want to go live and work in a country other than your own, DO IT LEGALLY.  Get the paperwork, learn the language (or at least attempt to), etc.  If I were to go to another country, it would be expected of me, why is it wrong to expect it of immigrants to our country?  I know people who have lived here (both legally and illegally) for 20+ years and have never even tried to learn English.


Clearly what you describe does happen, some illegals work for cash under the table and so avoid taxes.  Some old stats (10 year series) that I recall from a book titles Outlaw in the Promised Land (I think) by James Cockcroft show that the majority work under false SS ids, get paid over the table with taxes withheld, and make few demands on the system.  If you were an employer would you want to pay someone under the table and not be able to deduct that sum from your bottom line?  Doing so would mean that YOU had to pay taxes on that $$$, unless you found some other way to hide it.  Cockcroft, if I remember correctly - its been a long time - demonstrates that in taxes paid by the illegals, their contribution to their employers' bottom line, and what they take out of the system, illegals contribute millions yearly to our economy in the US.

I agree that one should learn the sominant language of a country one chooses to live in, and we have the right to expect immigrants to learn English, or as you say, at least try.

If it weren't for undocumented aliens, lots of people (like those financially-strapped Clinton, Bush 1 and Bush 2 Cabinet and Court nominees) wouldn't be able to afford domestic help...  ::)

Lot of those kind of places operate like that.

When i worked at 'subway' *shudders* i was paid cash in hand.. never signed one single form and never asked any questions.

In fact the only time i ever spoke to the boss was when they decided they didn't want to pay me because i hadn't turned up to work one day. Never mind that i was in Hospital and that i had worked every other day that week  >:(

I guess they just manage to fit those costs in, in other places.. i know some people got paid above board so they obviously couldn't get away with paying everyone cash in hand.. and plus it would have looked odd if they had no wages going out.

Well...the sun used to never set on the British empire.

As for Michael Howard, he's right. If only Bush would stop the wave of illegal aliens invading daily from the US southern border. These people costs us billions in health care, policing, deporting, schooling, welfare, and the costs of them being in jail. Illegal aliens take up about 28% of American jails, yet both parties will not stop pandering to the latino vote and think about what the majority of Americans want. More border patrol, even add the army and national guard to our border for security, these people are rapidly chaning our culture, and it's not for the better. These people take jobs from Americans, and don't pay taxes, and instead of spending their "earned" money here in the US, they send it back to Mexico, which is why the President of Mexico, Fox, won't stop them. CLOSE THE BORDERS! Most Americans want it!

If only Bush would follow Howard.
What about those who live in countries where there is government oppression,torture,extreme violence,poverty,and mistreatment at the hands of despotic governments(for example-North Korea!!!!)...no one deserves to live like that,GWB. That's why America exists.

What about those who live in countries where there is government oppression,torture,extreme violence,poverty,and mistreatment at the hands of despotic governments(for example-North Korea!!!!)...no one deserves to live like that,GWB. That's why America exists.


Mexico doesn't have that poor a standard of living.  And North Koreans aren't the problem.  If these people want to come here, they can come in LEGALLY, not cross the border at night time and attack with violence our border patrol.  I regret America is where it is.  I wish we were in island like England.

Mexico is a bad neighbor.

Yeah i agree with GW.. it isn't THAT difficult to come in legally.. especially in England.. literally as long as you have pretty much anything to offer, or have any family member here, or have problems in your own country you can come and then they will process your application. It's the ones that come in Illegally that piss me off and we have 1,000,000 of them (home office figures) in a country with 60,000,000 people.

That is one 6th the Population of London.. all Illegal Immigrants who have no right to be here.

The United States has over eight times as many citizens as the UK but only six times as many Illegal Immigrants (of course who is counting)... that says something.

Who is illegally invading England?  Here in America it's Mexico and rich Canadians looking for surgery.

We get a lot of Indians, Pakistanis, and Eastern Europeans.

I don't mind the Indians, there culture has a very strong work ethic and most already have family here so i can understand there reasons for wanting to come here.

I am not a fan of Islam so i am somewhat wary of the number of Pakistanis coming over, but 9/10 are fine.

The Eastern Europeans are the problem, only about 3/10 come in Legally and out of those who come in maybe 4/10 will ever register, be taxed etc. Some may rgister themselves but never work once because they exist of Welfare and get free healthcare from the NHS. They are the problem.
This is why i was so against the E.U expanding and encompasing some of those Eastern European countries because now they actually have the right to come and live here.