I vote murder, although they're all despicable crimes.

I had to go with child molestation.

I had to go with child molestation.

That is DEFINITELY at least #2.

Hmmm.. i will say Rape and include chld rape in there.

Rape usually occurs between adults (although not always) and leaves horrific physical but more i would say, mental, scars. Murder.. well hey it's horrible but you aren't there to remember it. You are at peace. Child Molestation can often occur before the child is old enough to comprehend. Also a lot of child molestation is essentially rape anyway.

Hmmm.. i will say Rape and include chld rape in there.

Rape usually occurs between adults (although not always) and leaves horrific physical but more i would say, mental, scars. Murder.. well hey it's horrible but you aren't there to remember it. You are at peace. Child Molestation can often occur before the child is old enough to comprehend. Also a lot of child molestation is essentially rape anyway.

That's true.  I think murder is more a crime to the family and friends of the victim than the victim themself.  And people who are raped still have a chance to recover.  But rape can be as bad or worse than murder.  It's just not as hopeless as murder, which is why I chose it.

The first three tie fo the worst crime.

Hmmm.. i will say Rape and include chld rape in there.

Rape usually occurs between adults (although not always) and leaves horrific physical but more i would say, mental, scars. Murder.. well hey it's horrible but you aren't there to remember it. You are at peace. Child Molestation can often occur before the child is old enough to comprehend. Also a lot of child molestation is essentially rape anyway.


I agree with you wholeheartedly. Murder, though, could be remembered by the other victims (family, witnesses). Many children witnessed their parents being murdered, so it's almost the same since they were emotionally molested.

Tanya

My two cents:


1. Murder because its irreverseable and will always cause pain no matter what
2. Child Molestation and Rape tied because adult rape will be hurtful for sure, whereas molestation may or may not have permanent effects, but if molestation does its normally worse.
3. Treason because it could be good in some countries (like despotisms) and doesn't ALWAYS end in murder.

    Although their all terrible... Nothings worse then messing with a kid, that's just sick.

Treason.

Treason.


Come on then... how is Treason worse?

Come on then... how is Treason worse?


Are you kidding me?  Betraying your nation, stabbing your countrymen in the back, even possibly costing lives in a time of war.  Remember that US marine who decided to fight for Iraq, and so he took his own hand grenade, threw it in a tent full of US soldiers, and killed six of them from what I remember.  Selling your country out, especially to the enemies, goes far beyond the damage touching a child could ever possibly do.

Next to treason (which is punishable by death here in America,) murder would be next.  Think about it, no one said anything about murdering an adult, it could be a child.  Wouldn't you agree that murdering a child is worse than molesting them?  Same with rape, on the news a few years back they talked about this adult who videotaped himself raping a baby and posting it on the internet.

So that is my list:

1. Treason
2. Murder
3. Rape
4. Child Molestation

In that order.

I picked child molestation as well. This is my level of thinking . . .

Child Molestation - That child suffers from a very early age and carries it to the end of his/her life

Rape - The person involved suffers from their age of rape to death.

Murder - Despite being an incredibly bad thing that happens, that person suffers no more beyond the point of the crime.

Treason - Well . . . I don't know much about treason but if it's anything like Guy Fawkes blowing up The Houses of Parliament, I'm all for it.  ;D

I use the amount of suffering and longevity of that suffering as a yardstick of severity. Not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how I think.

I picked child molestation as well. This is my level of thinking . . .

Child Molestation - That child suffers from a very early age and carries it to the end of his/her life

Rape - The person involved suffers from their age of rape to death.



But what if the rape is of a child?

^Child Molestation is essentially rape involving a child as the victim.

Tanya

^Child Molestation is essentially rape involving a child as the victim.

Tanya


I don't think so.  Rape is forcing somebody to have sex with you.  Molestation is touching somebody in an a sexual way.  So raping somebody, in my opinion, is worse than molesting them.

I don't think it's a question that you can answer in such a general form: some rapes are worse than murder... child molestation may not actually mean anything to the child, or it may leave them scarred for life and intent on causing harm to others. 

And I don't think "besides terrorism" is reasonable, either - it's only recently that terrorism has been turned into this scary bugbear: you're still many times more likely to die in a car accident, or be murdered in your home by someone you know, or be molested by a priest than you are to be involved in a terrorist incident.  The trouble is, people have no sense of proportion.

You are several hundred times more likely to be involved in a moose related accident, accidentally strangle yourself with the phone chord (which many hundreds of people do a year) or be shot by your three year old than you are to be killed by Terrorists. It's just the Bush administrations way of keeping people in check. We haven't gone as far as 1984 yet.. we are at about '81, wouldn't you say Phil?

But what if the rape is of a child?


I guess my understanding was that 'rape' in the context Mike used was against women. Rape of a child is worse than child molestation. If raping the child is part of the 'Rape' section then I will change to Rape, Child molestation, Murder and then Treason (even though equally the crimes are all as disgusting as each other).

i can't stand for crimes against children. thats the worst and child molestors are often killed in prison anyway, even the criminals have a twisted code of honour. next would be treason. selling out your country is pretty despicable.

It's just the Bush administrations way of keeping people in check. We haven't gone as far as 1984 yet.. we are at about '81, wouldn't you say Phil?

:)

If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying
my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.
Not being that much of a fan of countries per se, I'd not rate treason anything like that highly.  Note that this is not the same as betraying agents of ones country leading to their death.  "My country, right or wrong" is a very dangerous attitude to pursue, though.

Treason is bullshhh. The worst treason is to yourself. If the highest validation someone gets is by being a citizen of a country, I pity that person. All that determines citizenship is where you happened to be born or where your parents happen to have been born. That's a great concept to base one's life around.

:)
Not being that much of a fan of countries per se,



Exactly what does that mean?  Are you one of those global government people?

Treason is bullshhh. The worst treason is to yourself. If the highest validation someone gets is by being a citizen of a country, I pity that person. All that determines citizenship is where you happened to be born or where your parents happen to have been born. That's a great concept to base one's life around

Boy, you really have fallen off the crazy train.  Stabbing your country in the back, selling out military secrets to other nations, killing off your fellow soldiers and fighting with the taliban is all great and needs no punishment, is that it?

I'm sorry, if someone stabs America in the back, by all means, I say our government should execute them (like they will.)  People can move anytime they want.

One of them ends a life and can affect alot of people

The other three don't end lives, but can have very bad affects for the victim later on.

Murder, I have to say is worse. Ending ones life has to be worse than ruining one's life.



Thats a tough one...

I said "besides terrorism" referring to stuff of large scale the 9-11 which is a given, ie blowing up buildings.  I was more talking crimes a small man can commit. I'd say its:

1. Murder because although rape can be as bad there's still hope, whereas although the murderee is at peace their family isn't and they have been robbed of life
2. Child Molestation because it's just sick, changes the victims mentality for the worse, and can ruin their life, but is not #1 becausenit doesn't always affect the victim, esp. if they're very young like under 7, and can be eased with therapy
3. Rape for same reasons as child molestations because it implies an act towards an adult and does not change the mind as much as child sex abuse does.

As for sickest, probably child molestation and murder tied at #1 and rape a close second.  All offenses warrant life in prison and child molestation/rape and murder can sometimes warrant death penalty imo.  One adult rape count doesn't quite call death penalty into the picture in my opinion, but multiple counts can.  I'll speak my thoughts on the death sentence in the dp thread.

Treason can be anywhere, but is more often toward the bottom of the list.

Boy, you really have fallen off the crazy train.  Stabbing your country in the back, selling out military secrets to other nations, killing off your fellow soldiers and fighting with the taliban is all great and needs no punishment, is that it?

I'm sorry, if someone stabs America in the back, by all means, I say our government should execute them (like they will.)  People can move anytime they want.


Treason is a political thing not a social thing IMO. I owe nothing to my country or any other country. As long as I do things legally, I don't care. The government are very slow to act on behalf of it's people (if it does at all) so why should they expect a vice versa?

    I have to agree with Bobby.  It's hard to put Treason at the top of the list for me, simply because I beleive that there are tons of things that the government hides from us.  I thought that if the U.S. ended up not finding a damn thing in Irac (WMD), that I would lose a lot of faith in this country, or at least our president.  Well, thats exactly what happened.  I love my country, but you have to admit that our government is a little F**ked up.  But on the other hand, I can't think of another place where I'd rather live.  So I just accept it for what it is.

I disagree somewhat there, i think that Treason is a abysmal act, however it isn't (usually) an act commited unto a person, more an act commited unto a Body. i.e the Government.
Of course your treasonous act may have an impact on people. But as GW Pointed out, i think if for instance in a war time situation you fragged your own men, that wouldn't be treason, it would be murder.

Treason is the worst of them.  Imagine if someone who was born and has always lived in America and works for the government stole nuclear secrets and gave them to North Korea and they used them to blow up Alaska.  Think about it, our military secrets.

Treason is the worst of them.  Imagine if someone who was born and has always lived in America and works for the government stole nuclear secrets and gave them to North Korea and they used them to blow up Alaska.  Think about it, our military secrets.


You mean its ok for us to have weopons of mass destruction but not anyone else?  Has any other nation EVER use a nuk?

"Treason", as Ben Franklin suggested, is defined by the winners and applied to the losers.  When the Declaration of Independance was signed, John Hancock is reported to have said "We must all hang together, there must be no pulling in different directions" to which Franklin supposedly responded "Yes, we must certainly hang together, or we will all, most certrainly hang deperately". 

Reluctantly, because of the limited choices, I picked child molestation, assuming that rape refered to rape of an adult.

Why not murder?  Murder, overwhelmingly, is a crime of passion.  People can do bizzar things, horrendous things, in the heat of passion.  I suspect that we all have the potential, some (those who value life less than others for whatever reason) are more prone to it than others, but the potential is there.  Sick serial killers, and murder for hire are exeptions but, thank goodness, are less common.

Why not rape?  Both rape and child molestation are usually not "sex crimes", that is crimes about sex, but rather about power and domination.  since adults are better able to defend themselves than children, I believe that molesting children is worse than molesting an adult.  One of my daughters, by the way, was molested (groped) when she was 13, and I came within a hair's breath of cutting his "privates" off.  Remember Crocidille Dundee's knife?  I have a bigger one.  My Ex stopped me - wish she hadent, since the bast.. got off.  But rape is almost as bad.

Why not rape?  Both rape and child molestation are usually not "sex crimes", that is crimes about sex, but rather about power and domination.  since adults are better able to defend themselves than children, I believe that molesting children is worse than molesting an adult.  One of my daughters, by the way, was molested (groped) when she was 13, and I came within a hair's breath of cutting his "privates" off.  Remember Crocidille Dundee's knife?  I have a bigger one.  My Ex stopped me - wish she hadent, since the bast.. got off.  But rape is almost as bad.


I am sickened to hear your child has gone through this, Carlos.  :(

Cutting that man's privates off would have got you into jail. Your ex did the right thing. We can all do things in the boiling heat of the moment. I'm so glad you didn't do it.  :)

I am sickened to hear your child has gone through this, Carlos.  :(

Cutting that man's privates off would have got you into jail. Your ex did the right thing. We can all do things in the boiling heat of the moment. I'm so glad you didn't do it.  :)


I confessed my gut reaction to the prosecuter who handled the case.  His response was "I'm glad I didn't have to try to prosecute you, it would have been a hard case to win".  I'm glad she stopped me too, mostly because of how I would feel now. 
Thanks Bobby

I confessed my gut reaction to the prosecuter who handled the case.  His response was "I'm glad I didn't have to try to prosecute you, it would have been a hard case to win".  I'm glad she stopped me too, mostly because of how I would feel now. 
Thanks Bobby


You're welcome.  ;)

Once again I notice that I am being ignored by some of our right wing friends.  Oh well.  since silence equal assent, I guess my arguments prevailed.

Once again I notice that I am being ignored by some of our right wing friends. Oh well. since silence equal assent, I guess my arguments prevailed.


You make great points, Carlos (I'm liberal btw).  Yeah it really depends on the case.  What that guy did to your daughter, for instance, sounds as bad as murder. Rape is always bad, and the victim may or may not find peace later, molestation can be worse than rape and murder or it can mean nothing like Philbo said (I think like 13% of molested kids suffer long-term effects). I'd say sex and violent crimes can be as bad or worse than murder, but I picked murder simply because it is always as bad as it is, you know?  Plus its damage can never even be partially reversed.  But like I said, I think they all bring life without parole into the picture (murder always, sex crimes it depends on circumstances, very often life without parole, always at the very least several decades (I'll say 25 years minimum no bail)), and all of them except a single count of rape to an adult can bring dp into the picture (death shouldn't always be given, it really depends on money matters and how remorseful the criminal is, multiple rape and violent crime count, one child molestation count can also make it possible)

But it really depends on the case; all these crimes can be switched any way (even treason in very extreme cases).

There's my five cents  ;)

-FHF

Rape. Personally I'd rather be murdered than raped.

Treason is the worst of them.  Imagine if someone who was born and has always lived in America and works for the government stole nuclear secrets and gave them to North Korea and they used them to blow up Alaska.  Think about it, our military secrets.


That is a terrible thing to do no matter which country you belong to. Does the fact that this person is American make it any worse in reality? No. The same amount of people are killed either way no matter what country the purp belongs to. He should be brought to justice either way, and either way they will probably kill him. Treason in and of itself means nothing... it's not a crime in and of itself, it's a modifier. I can kill one guy (a bum) and have committed murder or I could kill a fellow member of the military... in both cases I've killed one guy, yet one is worse than the other? No. Fanciful notions for meaningless existences.

All 4 are equally bad, but I picked murder because it is one of the Ten Commandments (not that God allows any of the other three).

Does the fact that this person is American make it any worse in reality?


Yes.  Think about what military secrets America has compared to other nations.

Fanciful notions for meaningless existences.

Oh boy, another..... :-X

Is that analysis about the soldier and the bum on the street really the European/Canadian/Pro(Re)Gressive style of "thinking" we on the right here so much about?

A life is a life - I'm with McDonald 100% on this.


Yes.  Think about what military secrets America has compared to other nations.

Why does this make a difference if one guy is dead?  "Treason" my not harm anybody, and under some circumstances may make the world a better place...

Why does this make a difference if one guy is dead? 


None if it's one.  But my guess is that with America's military secrets someone or some country could kill far more people than with Canada's military secrets.

Yes.  Think about what military secrets America has compared to other nations.

Oh boy, another..... :-X

Is that analysis about the soldier and the bum on the street really the European/Canadian/Pro(Re)Gressive style of "thinking" we on the right here so much about?


You miss the point. If the purp gives away American secrets, it doesn't matter what his own nationality is. It won't change the actual crime, the word "treason" would just be a modifier that tells everyone "not only is he a spy, he's one of us." Murder is murder, espionage is espionage... there is no definite crime of treason, the word only modifies other crimes. How can it, in and of itself, be worse than raping a child?

The analysis was about neither of your cited subjects, it was about anyone who must resort to the simple fact of where they happened to be born in order to validate their lives. Pedophiles and rapists are simply that, filthy sexual predators. However, one man's murderer or traitor is another man's John Wayne. The American colonists were traitors, GW, and without them you wouldn't have the country to which you so pathetically suckle. The original IRA were a bunch of murderers, but to anyone who is Irish they are heroes. Meanwhile, no one in their right mind would consider a child-molester a role-model for having molested children.