Incompetent is the absolute best I can say. National Disgrace

Incompetent is the absolute best I can say. National Disgrace


Danoota, have you ever gone through a "Natural Disaster"?

I have.  I have been through 4 of them.  2 earthquakes, and 2 hurricanes.  I have lived in tent cities.  I have had my home destroyed.  I have first hand experience at this sort of thing.

You have to realize, this was a Category 5 Hurricane!  Since 1851, there have been exactly 4 Category 5 Hurricanes to strike the US.  I went through Hugo in 1989.  That was only a 4, and is ranked as #10 in a list of the 60 worst Hurricanes to hit the US.  Ivan last year only ranks at #27.  And that one tore up Florida and the Gulf Coast.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastint.shtml

I was watching this storm come.  In fact, when it passed through Southern Florida on Friday-Saturday, it's expected landfall was 100 miles south of where I live.  If it had not turned west like it did, it would have struck my area.  I was prepared to evacuate, but it was not nessicary.  It turned West, and struck Louisiana-Missippi-Alabama instead.

And I am not sure if you even realize the scale we are talking about.  New Orleans is under water.  Mobile is heavily damaged.  Biloxi has basically been blown off the face of the earth.  And as it went North, it went back East.  Montgommery and Birmingham are damaged also.

Some people look at the news flooding in from New Orleans, and see a mess.  They do not realize how extensive the damage actually is.  The I-10 is almost unpassable between Eastern Texas and Florida!  The port facilities are destroyed, the roads are flooded or wiped out, the water and power lines are gone.  The cell towers are unpowered or destroyed.  And this covers 4 states!

It is easy to sound concerned, and to blame others.  This is a disaster, and the emergency services are doing the best they can.  One of our cops here in Dothan was activated to the National Guard to help.  His truck company left on Tuesday night.  They finally made it to Shreevesport last night!  The roads are a mess.  They had to break out the equipment they had for refugees and use it themselves to sleep and eat along the way.  There was so little fuel available, they used 1/3 of their supply just getting there.

So go ahead and blame Bush, or Congress, or anybody else you want.  I see people trying to cope with a massive disaster, and doing the best they can.  Maybe if you had gone through something like this, you would understand a lot better.

it would help if FEMA was headed by someone comptent.  It isn't.

http://www.horsesass.org/

Another close personal friend of the Bush administration hired to a post where he doesn't belong.

Mushroom.  I have no idea what to say to you.  Your apologies for this administration are sad and pathetic.  If you've been through disasters of this scale, you would know that the response within our own country has been slower than it is for other countries we've helped.

The disaster could not be avoided?  Bush cut funding for the levees every year since 2001.  They still might have been breached, but we'll never have the luxury of knowing that.

The response couldn't be quicker?  It took four days before the first National Guard troops arrived in the city. I find it hard to believe they couldn't be flown in sooner.  Real hard.

They didn't know it would be this bad?  You didn't read the weather service bulletin Sunday when it came out then.  If even the weather service says the city could be under water, then people know what will happen if a large huricane is coming through the region.

The facts are simple.

People are starving and dying because the resources are not being provided and are not being sent by the federal government.

If they can send busses in an out of the city (and they have been), they can evacuate the Superdome and the conference center.  What's the delay?  Bush was still on vacation until Wednesday, I'm sure that didn't help.  Bush cut funding, Bush appointed people to agencies they haven't got the skills to run.  Bush isn't to blame for the hurricane, but the blame certainly belongs on his desk for the response to it.

OK, this is rather simple.

What would you do different?  What could be done that is not being done now?

It is very easy to point the finger and say "This is bad".  It is much harder to fix it, or to find a better solution.

Just ask the people who lived in Russia in 1918 about that.  We all know what kind of paradise they lived in 50 years later.  Of course, then it ws the fault of the Evil Capitolists, instead of the Czars.

OK, this is rather simple.

What would you do different?  What could be done that is not being done now?

It is very easy to point the finger and say "This is bad".  It is much harder to fix it, or to find a better solution.

Just ask the people who lived in Russia in 1918 about that.  We all know what kind of paradise they lived in 50 years later.  Of course, then it ws the fault of the Evil Capitolists, instead of the Czars.


I'm not the president.  I'm not the head of FEMA.  Even I however, would have called for every single bus in the state to be pressed into service and sent south on Tuesday. 

Even Bush is bad mouthing his administration's response to this. 

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3336465

so clearly, the critics are not alone in their assesment of how this is being handled.

I'm not even going to bother to respond to a comment about Russia.  It's completly detached from anything, a strawman to tear down.

I'm not the president.  I'm not the head of FEMA.  Even I however, would have called for every single bus in the state to be pressed into service and sent south on Tuesday. 


That has been done in other areas too.

Today I heard an interview of a guy that is there trying to do phone line repair.  They are now doing almost nothing, because they are running out of Diesel fuel.  With no electricity, they can't use the pumps.  With no fuel, they can't fix the lines.  It is a catch-22.  Even if they bring in busses, the people have to be taken over 300 miles away.  And you also have to take care of the drivers, mandatory rest periods, and fuel for the busses.

I think people are so wrapped up on New Orleans, they do not realize the scale of the devistation.  Katrina tore a path over 400 miles wide through the South-East United States.  Think about that, over 200 miles.  And you have Boloxi, Mobile, Gulf Shores, Pensacola, Dauphin Island, and hundreds of other towns all through the area.

If this was a disaster that only affected New Orleans, then the frustration might be more understandable.  This disaster is much much larger then that.  Stand back, and look at a map.  Look at how much there is between New Orleans and Mobile.  Everything between those 2 points is devistated.

To compare to people that live in other areas, think of it like this:

San Diego to Los Angeles is 120 miles.

Baltimore to NYC is just under 200 miles.

Now imagine this storm if it had hit going West.  Ground Zero would be somewhere around New Jersey.  Everything from NYC to Washington DC is heavily damaged or destroyed.  Roads flooded, power lines down, water cut off, sewage backing up, hospitals damaged.

Now tell me, how are you going to take care of everybody in less then a week?  And consider that the storm did damage not along the waterfront, but as far inland as Philadelphia.  And CHicago even gets damage.

Now do you have an idea of the scale of this?  If it was West Coast, it would tear up everything between Tiajuanna and Santa Barbara, and still damage Las Vegas on the way inland.

Now tell me, how could anybody have done a much better job?

People are human.  They make mistakes.  Tens of thousands made the mistake of thinking they could stay at home when a level 5 hurricane came overhead.  Unless somebody is claiming to be the Messiah, then nobody is perfect.

That has been done in other areas too.

Today I heard an interview of a guy that is there trying to do phone line repair.  They are now doing almost nothing, because they are running out of Diesel fuel.  With no electricity, they can't use the pumps.  With no fuel, they can't fix the lines.  It is a catch-22.  Even if they bring in busses, the people have to be taken over 300 miles away.  And you also have to take care of the drivers, mandatory rest periods, and fuel for the busses.

I think people are so wrapped up on New Orleans, they do not realize the scale of the devistation.  Katrina tore a path over 400 miles wide through the South-East United States.  Think about that, over 200 miles.  And you have Boloxi, Mobile, Gulf Shores, Pensacola, Dauphin Island, and hundreds of other towns all through the area.



you know what.  Great Excuse.  really.  that's what it is.  The people in the regions you just mentioned, aren't trapped in their attics drowning at the moment.  They can't get the phone lines up?  I know communication is a priority, but that's what radios are for.  None of the people involved with that effort are going to be called upon to rescue people in New Orleans.  The people in these regions also don't need to be evacuated, they need food and water where they are.

stop making excuses for this goverment.  they're doing plenty of that on their own.

The head of FEMA blames the people who stayed for their predicament.  Nevermind the one day of warning, and that 90% of these people have no vehicles. I guess Michael Brown personally offered each of them a ride out of town in his expensive car and they refused

I bet Bush gives him a medal for this performance too.  He seems to like it.

all of these government agencies now come under the heading of Homeland Security........and yes they should be able to do better....oh wait...nevermind....i forgot...they're too busy worrying if i'm carrying nail clippers onto a plane.

you know what.  Great Excuse.  really.  that's what it is.  The people in the regions you just mentioned, aren't trapped in their attics drowning at the moment.  They can't get the phone lines up?  I know communication is a priority, but that's what radios are for.  None of the people involved with that effort are going to be called upon to rescue people in New Orleans.  The people in these regions also don't need to be evacuated, they need food and water where they are.


For one thing, I made a typo.  It was power lines they were fixing.  That is the "Catch-22" I mentioned.  No power, no way to get fuel.  No fuel, no way to fix the lines.

Now once again, what is the solution?  Can you think of anything creative to do to help that has not been done already?

One thing I hate, is when people just "bitch bitch bitch" when something like this happens, but has nothing creative to offer.  It is easy to sit back and criticize things, but much harder to do anything to help.

13 years ago, I could have screamed at Clinton when the earthquale hit LA.  After all, why had the Federal Government not made mandatory changes to the building codes?  Why did it take days to get the emergency services set up?  Why did it take weeks to get power, water, and sewer lines working again?  Why did it take over a month for me to get replacement housing?

But it was not President Clinton's fault.  And as bad as that quake was, it is nothing compared to what happened this week.

For one thing, I made a typo.  It was power lines they were fixing.  That is the "Catch-22" I mentioned.  No power, no way to get fuel.  No fuel, no way to fix the lines.

Now once again, what is the solution?  Can you think of anything creative to do to help that has not been done already?

One thing I hate, is when people just "bitch bitch bitch" when something like this happens, but has nothing creative to offer.  It is easy to sit back and criticize things, but much harder to do anything to help.

13 years ago, I could have screamed at Clinton when the earthquale hit LA.  After all, why had the Federal Government not made mandatory changes to the building codes?  Why did it take days to get the emergency services set up?  Why did it take weeks to get power, water, and sewer lines working again?  Why did it take over a month for me to get replacement housing?

But it was not President Clinton's fault.  And as bad as that quake was, it is nothing compared to what happened this week.


Oh I get it, if I don't have the solution, I can't comment on it?  I already pointed out a solution.  There is a road in and out of New Orleans that is not submerged.  What more do they need?  Written invitation?  There's your solution for evacuating people.  Send buses down empty, bring them back full.  As for fuel, if the military can send in fuel trucks every fifty miles in a war zone to keep tanks running, why can't they do it here? A bus needs fuel less often than every fifty miles.  So if power is the only excuse for sending busses down there, again, it's poor excuse.  The roads can't all be obstructed, since as I already pointed out, a few dozen buses have already made it to the Astrodome.

sorry, that's not just bitching.  You can blame Bush for this, for all the reasons I already pointed out.  That's only one problem, and it's a major one that's not being addressed.  There are a few dozen others.

The difference with Clinton in the LA eathquakes?  Crappy strawman agument again.  Building codes are regional, there was no advance warning, he didn't just spend five years establishing new agencies for emergency response, etc.  Clinton also appointed a FEMA head that had prior emergency experience.  How many ways do I need to point out how your "examples" are not relevant? 

The difference with Clinton in the LA eathquakes?  Crappy strawman agument again.  Building codes are regional, there was no advance warning, he didn't just spend five years establishing new agencies for emergency response, etc.  Clinton also appointed a FEMA head that had prior emergency experience.  How many ways do I need to point out how your "examples" are not relevant? 


I see, and the dykes are supposed to be the responsibility of the Federal Government?

Was there anything preventing New Orleans from beefing up their own levees?  Other then wanting to have it covered by the federal governenment (and everybody else in the nation), they could just as well have done it themselves.

And if you think the Military can just go in on the order of the President, you are sadly mistaken.  There are beaurocratic hurdles in place that prevent that from happening.  And it takes something called "TIME".  The hurdles are done, and the supplies are moving now.  As quick as it could reasonably have been done.

And if you think the Military can just go in on the order of the President, you are sadly mistaken.  There are beaurocratic hurdles in place that prevent that from happening. 



???  I thought it important to highlight this quote in case some one missed it.

I would like to thank Chuckie for articulating my thoughts.  I do not do it very well and for that I am sorry.Some things do set me over the edge though and this is one of them.

I see, and the dykes are supposed to be the responsibility of the Federal Government?

Was there anything preventing New Orleans from beefing up their own levees?  Other then wanting to have it covered by the federal governenment (and everybody else in the nation), they could just as well have done it themselves.

And if you think the Military can just go in on the order of the President, you are sadly mistaken.  There are beaurocratic hurdles in place that prevent that from happening.  And it takes something called "TIME".  The hurdles are done, and the supplies are moving now.  As quick as it could reasonably have been done.


As a matter of fact, the levees ARE the responsibility of the Army Corps of Engineers as is all of the water control on the Mississippi, and the buydget to both maintain those levees, not to mention to improve them was drastically cut (like 2/3rds) since Lil' Georgie has been in office - an ounce of prevention...

Another point:  while clearly it would foolhardy to advocate abandoning New Orleans, one has to wonder why  we don't have some kind of national zoning restrictions that would prevent at least new construction in costal areas below sea level or so close to it in hurricane ally that you know sooner or later you will get hit.

I see, and the dykes are supposed to be the responsibility of the Federal Government?


as Don Carlos points out, yes it is.  The Army Corps of Engineers who are now mostly in Iraq, build and maintain them.  They also specified how much they needed to improve them.  Bush ignored them.  Much like he has done in the past with other military experts who disagree with him.


Was there anything preventing New Orleans from beefing up their own levees?  Other then wanting to have it covered by the federal governenment (and everybody else in the nation), they could just as well have done it themselves.


They did provide money for it, but not as much as they needed.  It was a federal responsibility, but they began to pick up the slack.


And if you think the Military can just go in on the order of the President, you are sadly mistaken.  There are beaurocratic hurdles in place that prevent that from happening.  And it takes something called "TIME".  The hurdles are done, and the supplies are moving now.  As quick as it could reasonably have been done.


The hurdle you refer to, is known as declaring martial law.  The mayor declared it Monday and was even praising one of the generals who was on the ground Wednesday.  As for mobilizing, yes, it takes time, especially when the people you need most are half way around the world at the request of the commander in chief.

Anything else you need cleared up? 

Here is a story of people just as bad off as those in New Orleans, but are getting no aid at all.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/K/KATRINA_THE_FORGOTTEN_HK2?SITE=IDBOI&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Remember, there are hundreds of other towns, just like this.  New Orleans is the most spectacular because of the number of people, but there are probably just as many more people affected in smaller communities all over 4 states.

And if you think the Military can just go in on the order of the President, you are sadly mistaken.  There are beaurocratic hurdles in place that prevent that from happening.  And it takes something called "TIME".  The hurdles are done, and the supplies are moving now.  As quick as it could reasonably have been done.



???   I thought it important to highlight this quote in case some one missed it.

I would like to thank Chuckie for articulating my thoughts.  I do not do it very well and for that I am sorry.Some things do set me over the edge though and this is one of them.



The hurdle you refer to, is known as declaring martial law.  The mayor declared it Monday and was even praising one of the generals who was on the ground Wednesday.  As for mobilizing, yes, it takes time, especially when the people you need most are half way around the world at the request of the commander in chief.

Anything else you need cleared up? 


OK, now I do need to clarify something.  And it is something that most people outside of the military probably do not know.

Military members serve in a state with the permission of the Governor.  There are written agreements between the Federal Government and the Governors of each state.  No military members can move into a state without prior permission.  They are only allowed to move through.

National Guard is under the command and controll of the individual state governor.  In order for the President to use them, they have to be "Nationalized".  This requires permission of Congress.  Only then can the President give them any orders.

And before they can move into another state, they need the permission of the state they are being moved into.  Each individual unit needs such permission.  The President has to ask the Commandant of the National Guard, and he has to request permission of the Governor of the target state for each individual unit.

The reason for this is rather obvious.  Otherwise, it is basically an act of war.  Martial Law simply allows military units to enforce laws in a stricter way, and lowers Constitutional protections in limited ways.  It does not mean that the Military can just move in.  The technical term for that is not "Martial Law", it is "Occupation".

These concepts daets back in the current use to the Civil War.  States under Martial Law could still vote, had representatives in Congress, and had their own law enforcement.  The Military was there at the invitation of the states.  Occupation means that local laws are set aside.  There is no representation, no rights, only what the Military says matters.

And if you remember history, when President Eisenhower forced Governor Wallace to integrate Alabama schools, who did he call up?  He did not bring in troops from another state.  He got Congressional approval to Nationalize the Alabama National Guard, and had them do it.  This is the only way he could enforce the law without declaring Alabama "In Rebellion", and forcing an "Occupation Government".

This federal government's message to all Americans in need has been, from the start, "**** you!" 
Why should it be any different now?  This administration set its priorities entirely in favor of the rich.  No surprise they can't handle the devastation.  They're not set up to govern, they're set up to tell lies and do favors for their friends.

And something I forgot to mention in my last post.

Yes, there was a lot of response right away from Military units.  But did anybody notice that they were all units that were already stationed in Louisiana?  They already had permission to be there.

The Coast Guard is unique, because contrary to popular thought, they are not a Military Force.  Formerly part of the Department of Transportation, they are now under the Department of Homeland Defense.  They are not a military organization, and do not need such permissions.  Naval and Marine Corps units can shortcut these requirements by utilizing their rights as "Units Deployed By Sea", and invoking pre-arranged rights of portage.

But Army units must go through the proper steps.  Otherwise, it is an act of war.

And something I forgot to mention in my last post.

Yes, there was a lot of response right away from Military units.  But did anybody notice that they were all units that were already stationed in Louisiana?  They already had permission to be there.

The Coast Guard is unique, because contrary to popular thought, they are not a Military Force.  Formerly part of the Department of Transportation, they are now under the Department of Homeland Defense.  They are not a military organization, and do not need such permissions.  Naval and Marine Corps units can shortcut these requirements by utilizing their rights as "Units Deployed By Sea", and invoking pre-arranged rights of portage.

But Army units must go through the proper steps.  Otherwise, it is an act of war.


Fine.  I'll accept that, since I have no idea the inner workings of calling up troops outside the borders of a state.  Though I wonder if all those "Homeland Security" acts passed helped over turn some of those laws.  It still proves even more how inept this Republican "leadership" really is, since I'm sure they know all these facts too.

The earlier statement, that Bush should have ended his vacation two days sooner than he did still stands.  He was needed and he did nothing. He should have asked his party to cut the summer recess short by a week.  He didn't. When Shaivo was on life-support, Congress got called back into session within hours (during a recess much like this one).  If Bush and his neocon facist pals cared one bit, they could have done the same thing.  Oh how quickly people forget that one. Disaster, no response. Brain dead woman, fly everyone back to DC immediately!

If the majority of the Guard units stationed in Lousinna had still been there instead of overseas, they'd have been in state to protect the state.  They weren't. Guess where they were at the request of the president.

Bush and the Republican leadership of both houses have failed the people of New Orleans and all the affected southern states.  They might begin to help them now, but only after thousands of people have died, who didn't need to.

FEMA head Brown is either a tremendous liar, or hugely incompetent.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/

here's his statements, followed up by those of the mayor, various victims, etc.

Fine.  I'll accept that, since I have no idea the inner workings of calling up troops outside the borders of a state.  Though I wonder if all those "Homeland Security" acts passed helped over turn some of those laws.  It still proves even more how inept this Republican "leadership" really is, since I'm sure they know all these facts too.


Uhhh, this is a "States RIghts" issue, and has nothing to do with Homeland Security, or anything else.

Remember, most Southern and Western states are very protective of their own rights.  They are very protective of the Federal Government stepping into things that they reserve to themselves.  And most of the regulations still in place date to the post Civil War and Reconstruction era.

The Federal Government can't simply move troops into a state.  No more then they can enter another country without prior permission.  If they tried to overturn some of those laws, you would hear loud protests, and I would be among them.  It would be a step closer to Federal Control of everything, and a step closer to the possibility of a "Police State".

Uhhh, this is a "States RIghts" issue, and has nothing to do with Homeland Security, or anything else.

Remember, most Southern and Western states are very protective of their own rights.  They are very protective of the Federal Government stepping into things that they reserve to themselves.  And most of the regulations still in place date to the post Civil War and Reconstruction era.

The Federal Government can't simply move troops into a state.  No more then they can enter another country without prior permission.  If they tried to overturn some of those laws, you would hear loud protests, and I would be among them.  It would be a step closer to Federal Control of everything, and a step closer to the possibility of a "Police State".


They aren't that protective of rights.  Re-read the patriot act, they willingly signed away a lot of rights in that act, and the Reps most eager to renew it are those same states.

The ball is still in the hands of Congress.  If the states can't accept/reject the troops moving through their states until Congress asks, why were the still on vacation until yesterday?

They aren't that protective of rights.  Re-read the patriot act, they willingly signed away a lot of rights in that act, and the Reps most eager to renew it are those same states.

The ball is still in the hands of Congress.  If the states can't accept/reject the troops moving through their states until Congress asks, why were the still on vacation until yesterday?


It is not Congress that needs to act, it is the Governors of the respective states.

The President can call up troops for short periods of time on his own.  Most of the time, he goes through Congress, normally oversight committees.  He simply calls the Leader of the committee, and arranges to get enough of the members together to form a quarum.  If I am not mistaken, the Senate Defense Oversight Committee only needs a quarum of 5 or 6 members.  With that, he can freely go to the respective Governors and make the request.

And each state may have it's own requirements for responding to the request.  I know that the Governor of Alabama activated the Guard on his own, and got permission from Mississippi and Louisiana before the President was able to.  They were already mobilizing, and President Bush simply had to Nationalize them.  He also Nationalized the Louisiana National Guard.

One huge advantage of Nationalizing the Guard, is that the person who pays the checks changes.  As long as they are under State Controll, the home states pay all expenses.  But once it is Nationalizes, the Federal Government picks up the tab.  Even though they are staying at home, this will be a financial burden that Louisiana will not have to worry about.

And you misunderstood part of what I said.  As long as troops are moving through a state, they do not need permission.  It is only when they deploy in a state that permission is needed.

During a disaster, a lot of the rules are loosened greatly.  But remember, we are talking about the South.  A lot of state governments there are very touchy about the issue of states rights.  This is the culture that went to war over that concept 140 years ago.  And the last thing you want to do is to give the Klukkers and Neo-Nutzis the concept that the disaster is being used to start an "uninvited Federal occupation" of Louisiana-Mississippi-Alabama.  Because that is what it would be without those formal invitations and permissions, it would be an occupation.

Please just stop.  The President, Fema, the Governor, all fu**ed up and it cost people their lives.  You can talk all you want about who had the bureaucratic right to go on or not.  This is the age of instant communications.  While bush was at his party in San Diego he couldn't take 5 minutes to make a call to a senator, congressman, the governor to say "what the hell is going on let's get this taken care of"  FIVE DAYS  FIVE DAYS.  The States Rights argument is bu**sh*t. It was the argument used to keep the ancestors of 99 percent of the people we saw on television in slavery.  "I am sorry your loved ones died so horribly but your Governor didn't ask and I didn't want to step on anyones political toes" The whole world sat and watched people starving and dying in an area that was accessible, while help sat idlng on the outskirts of town, we watched people, old, young, infirm,hot, tired, sick, with families begging for relief.

Please just stop.  The President, Fema, the Governor, all fu**ed up and it cost people their lives.  You can talk all you want about who had the bureaucratic right to go on or not.  This is the age of instant communications.  While bush was at his party in San Diego he couldn't take 5 minutes to make a call to a senator, congressman, the governor to say "what the hell is going on let's get this taken care of"  FIVE DAYS  FIVE DAYS.  The States Rights argument is bu**sh*t. It was the argument used to keep the ancestors of 99 percent of the people we saw on television in slavery.  "I am sorry your loved ones died so horribly but your Governor didn't ask and I didn't want to step on anyones political toes" The whole world sat and watched people starving and dying in an area that was accessible, while help sat idlng on the outskirts of town, we watched people, old, young, infirm,hot, tired, sick, with families begging for relief.



http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/happy/1074.gif




Cat

It is not Congress that needs to act, it is the Governors of the respective states.

The President can call up troops for short periods of time on his own.  Most of the time, he goes through Congress, normally oversight committees.  He simply calls the Leader of the committee, and arranges to get enough of the members together to form a quarum.  If I am not mistaken, the Senate Defense Oversight Committee only needs a quarum of 5 or 6 members.  With that, he can freely go to the respective Governors and make the request.

And each state may have it's own requirements for responding to the request.  I know that the Governor of Alabama activated the Guard on his own, and got permission from Mississippi and Louisiana before the President was able to.  They were already mobilizing, and President Bush simply had to Nationalize them.  He also Nationalized the Louisiana National Guard.

One huge advantage of Nationalizing the Guard, is that the person who pays the checks changes.  As long as they are under State Controll, the home states pay all expenses.  But once it is Nationalizes, the Federal Government picks up the tab.  Even though they are staying at home, this will be a financial burden that Louisiana will not have to worry about.

And you misunderstood part of what I said.  As long as troops are moving through a state, they do not need permission.  It is only when they deploy in a state that permission is needed.

During a disaster, a lot of the rules are loosened greatly.  But remember, we are talking about the South.  A lot of state governments there are very touchy about the issue of states rights.  This is the culture that went to war over that concept 140 years ago.  And the last thing you want to do is to give the Klukkers and Neo-Nutzis the concept that the disaster is being used to start an "uninvited Federal occupation" of Louisiana-Mississippi-Alabama.  Because that is what it would be without those formal invitations and permissions, it would be an occupation.


well guess what.  They did act.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard

Because the agreement that was already in existence for states to contribute Guard troops to Louisiana did not include a provision on their use in law enforcement, Blum said, Gov. Blanco had to get separate written agreements authorizing Guardsmen to do police-type duty.

Still, Blum said, this took only minutes to execute.

With many states' Guard units depleted by deployments to
Iraq, Katrina's aftermath was almost certain from the beginning to require help from faraway states.

not only did they ask, they made arangements before the hurricane even hit.

...paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.

Right there.  That's the smoking gun.  Where is the delay? Washington.

Everything you said about state rights, while correct, was already taken care of ahead of time.  The delay was caused by paper pushers in DC, not in the respective states. 

The bottom line is that everyone screwed up.  The citizens, the Mayor, the Governor and the federal gov.  Take the mistakes that each of them made and you have this huge disaster.  Everyone is to blame here.  One thing is for sure....we can complain and gripe about this all we want but it doesn't change what happened.  Some big lessons are being learned here, it's just too bad that it had to get to this point. :-\\

I want to put in a "reality check" before I leave this unrealistic mess.

Has anybody seen the size of the "Disaster Area" that has been declaired?  And by the way, it does not cover all of the damaged areas, only the most devistated areas.  I should know, because I live well outside of it, but my drive the next morning was delayed because of having to detout because of downed trees and power lines.

The disaster area covers roughly 90,000 square miles!

Now lets get realistic.  That is an area larger then England!  That is also larger then Greece, North Korea, and South Korea.  It is twice the area of Saudi Arabia.  It is over 3 times the size of Denmark.

Now tell me, how is anybody expected to rush immediate aid into an area that large?  How can anybody be realistically be expected to respond in less time then that?

All I see here is people who hate, and want to use this as an excuse to hate.  So go ahead an bash whoever you want.  I give up.  If people are so delusional as to look at the size and scope of this and claim that "aid is not fast enough" and "not enough is being done", then I guess they lost all contact with reality.

I am tired of trying to talk reason to a bunch of people who are so lost in ideology, that they can't see reality.

I want to put in a "reality check" before I leave this unrealistic mess.

Has anybody seen the size of the "Disaster Area" that has been declaired?  And by the way, it does not cover all of the damaged areas, only the most devistated areas.  I should know, because I live well outside of it, but my drive the next morning was delayed because of having to detout because of downed trees and power lines.

The disaster area covers roughly 90,000 square miles!

Now lets get realistic.  That is an area larger then England!  That is also larger then Greece, North Korea, and South Korea.  It is twice the area of Saudi Arabia.  It is over 3 times the size of Denmark.

Now tell me, how is anybody expected to rush immediate aid into an area that large?  How can anybody be realistically be expected to respond in less time then that?

All I see here is people who hate, and want to use this as an excuse to hate.  So go ahead an bash whoever you want.  I give up.  If people are so delusional as to look at the size and scope of this and claim that "aid is not fast enough" and "not enough is being done", then I guess they lost all contact with reality.

I am tired of trying to talk reason to a bunch of people who are so lost in ideology, that they can't see reality.


You are sooo right....I agree 100%. :)

Mr. Mushroom has taken it upon himself to bring in the dang old "states rates" goobledy-gook.
It bears mentioning the economies of the so-called "red states" are subsidized by taxes paid by people in the so-called "blue states."  I mean, it's OK with me, but it makes the claim of the hard-scrabble self-reliant Southern Conservatism just leeeetle bit comical.
::)

I remember, a long time ago, there were questions as to the qualifications of Brown to head FEMA.  So listening to Imus today he said that Browns previous job was head of the International Arabian Horse Association.  He didn't have any experience whatsovever in emergency management.  I want some answers.  Oh, yeah, he was asked to resign from it, basically for incompetence

  There is an issue concerning the New Orleans relief effort that hasn't been raised, and I know I'll probably take some heat for it, but here goes: They DID try and get supplies to the thousands of people trapped in the Superdome and at the convention center, but there were a few individuals in New Orleans who, instead of having the basic human decency to try and help their fellow man, decided that it would be cool to shoot at the people who were trying to rescue them. Any five-year-old knows that when ambulances and fire trucks come rolling down the street, that the people inside these vehicles' jobs are to save lives. And yet they were fired upon. Could someone please explain to me the mentality of someone who shoots at ambulances and fire trucks and National Guardsmen?  Had the rescue workers not had to deal with these "knuckleheads," as the mayor of New Orleans called them, they very well may have been able to get help to the storm victims much sooner and saved countless many more lives.  Even when the military finally did start flying in food and water to the Superdome their helicopters were fired upon by snipers, and they had to further delay the evacuation in order to secure the area.
    By no means am I excusing the slow response by our government agencies. Indeed they did drop the ball, and it's obvious that  Mike Brown has no business running FEMA and should be fired immediately. But I also believe that the looters and the rioters and the criminals who hampered the relief effort are every bit as responsible for the needless deaths of their fellow citizens as any incompetent government bureaucrat. I also think that the punishment for these individuals should be that since they are in large part responsible for the needlessly high death toll, they should be given the unpleasant task of going from house to house and extract the rotting, bloated corpses of their fellow citizens. They should be the ones who have to scrub all the filth out of the Superdome. Has our society really become that rotten? After all, I don't recall hearing any reports of last year's tsunami victims shooting at any relief aid workers.

I want to put in a "reality check" before I leave this unrealistic mess.

Has anybody seen the size of the "Disaster Area" that has been declaired?  And by the way, it does not cover all of the damaged areas, only the most devistated areas.  I should know, because I live well outside of it, but my drive the next morning was delayed because of having to detout because of downed trees and power lines.

The disaster area covers roughly 90,000 square miles!

Now lets get realistic.  That is an area larger then England!  That is also larger then Greece, North Korea, and South Korea.  It is twice the area of Saudi Arabia.  It is over 3 times the size of Denmark.

Now tell me, how is anybody expected to rush immediate aid into an area that large?  How can anybody be realistically be expected to respond in less time then that?

All I see here is people who hate, and want to use this as an excuse to hate.  So go ahead an bash whoever you want.  I give up.  If people are so delusional as to look at the size and scope of this and claim that "aid is not fast enough" and "not enough is being done", then I guess they lost all contact with reality.

I am tired of trying to talk reason to a bunch of people who are so lost in ideology, that they can't see reality.


Saying it's an area larger in England puts all of this into perspective. This situation was almost a "help yourself" kind of thing. People won't deny they weren't warned enough to evacuate. Just look at the newspapers days prior to the hurricane hitting and the traffic jams of people leaving. They knew, WE knew - this was something not to be taken lightly. Unfortunately, the ones who HAD to ride it out were getting the best help possible. The ones who decided to stay home must of known to some degree that they had a less than 50% chance of coming out of it alive.

Like Mushroom, I have lived through multiple earthquakes - yet no hurricanes. But, I know that just the devastation of one earthquake and what it can do. I have also seen our levees break down here in our own "delta" (as we call it) and which they flooded out last winter and buried homes under 20-30 feet of water! Am I going to blame Bush on that one?

I think all we can really blame is mother nature's fury and that as humans, we all were not well prepared for what she had to offer.

I found that Mike Brown(FEMA) is the incompetent one by his statements made regarding NOT KNOWING anything for to days..yet reports are coming out an order was sent 5 hours AFTER the disaster..Then again, the flooding started after the day of the hurricane due to the levee breaking.

The mayor is one that needs to explain why he didn't MANUALLY evacuate the stragglers as well as make use of the 'now flooded' buses.

If not mentioned- they expected to use the Superdome for emergency evacuations- not counting on how long it would be needed, YET IT WAS NOT STOCKED WITH SUPPLIES in this event.
(Again a mayoral responsibility?)

For those asking why it took so long, the paperwork is probably part of it or the politicians saying they didn't get any call from the government- DOESN'T THE PHONE WORK BOTH WAYS?
Call and ask for the okay.

Sounds like something could have been dropped to the survivors at the dome but getting in the dry area was the problem and by air..DO YOU SKIP HEARTLESSLY OVER THE HOUSES WITH PEOPLE NEEDING TO BE LIFTED OUT?
Sounds like a LOT of people wanted this.

The LEVEE according to records I heard HAD BEEN repaired to a point 7 years ago!
They maybe needed more work and you'd have to go to the person who appropriated money elsewhere or buried the project to move forward.

Last I heard, the mayor had nothing to say why the busses weren't deployed.

Those who remained...they had a responsibility to leave..warning was given..Those who couldn't..
WHY NOT?? A neighbor couldn't give you a ride? You had no money for a bus?cab?
Infirmed? How were they taken out after the flood...?
Some I seen still had 2 legs..in 4 days, maybe they could get 50 miles away?

Don't see how you can compare what to do with an earthquakes or other unpreventable/unforseen problems.

This is all from people whose opinions I respect.

     

People here seems to overlook the fact that problems New Orleans was having with FEMA are the same problems they had(are having) in Metairie, Biloxie, all of the cities on the Gulf who need help are so disgusted with FEMA the almost prefer that they don't show and just let the Red Cross and others do the work.

I want to put in a "reality check" before I leave this unrealistic mess.

Has anybody seen the size of the "Disaster Area" that has been declaired?  And by the way, it does not cover all of the damaged areas, only the most devistated areas.  I should know, because I live well outside of it, but my drive the next morning was delayed because of having to detout because of downed trees and power lines.

The disaster area covers roughly 90,000 square miles!

Now lets get realistic.  That is an area larger then England!  That is also larger then Greece, North Korea, and South Korea.  It is twice the area of Saudi Arabia.  It is over 3 times the size of Denmark.

Now tell me, how is anybody expected to rush immediate aid into an area that large?  How can anybody be realistically be expected to respond in less time then that?

All I see here is people who hate, and want to use this as an excuse to hate.  So go ahead an bash whoever you want.  I give up.  If people are so delusional as to look at the size and scope of this and claim that "aid is not fast enough" and "not enough is being done", then I guess they lost all contact with reality.

I am tired of trying to talk reason to a bunch of people who are so lost in ideology, that they can't see reality.


If you want reality, try reading something other than Fox news and conservative blogs.  Try reading commentary from the people actually in New Orleans and not part of the right-wing noise machine.

Here's a good start.

http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman/publish/article_18337.shtml

Wonder why people didn't walk over the bridge to leave after the hurricane had passed?  Simple.  The National Guard would shoot you if you did.  What happens when you fend for yourself and try to secure food?  If you're too visible they shoot at you and take the food and make you disperse.  When you did manage to get out, they confiscate your food and refused to give you any.

I expect the federal goverment to respond to a national disaster in less than a week.  I expect them to take advantage of the support offered by other countries instead of refusing it. 

You're tired of ideaology?  How is that idealogy?  How is it idealogy to expect the government to airliift food into ONE city out of the entire region?  Or send in troops in less than a week? 

We don't blame Bush for the disaster.  We blame him for the lack of response to it.  Only the Republicans are saying people blame him for the hurricane.  It's easier to make their critics look ridiculous.  Total Rove tatic.

I've refuted every single argument you've made in this thread.  Every single one of them.  Every time you post some new excuse.  Please point out a flaw if there is one.

Wonder why people didn't walk over the bridge to leave after the hurricane had passed?  Simple.  The National Guard would shoot you if you did.


How does any of that refute the size of the disaster area?  Remember, not just New Orleans was devistated.

OK, let me get this right, you say the National Guard kept people from walking out of the city.

But wait a minute, I thought part of the complaint is that it took days for the Guard to get to the devistated areas?  Now which one is it?  You can't have both no Guard, and then the Guard keeping people from walking out of the area.

BTW, the real reason people could not walk out of the area is because the bridges were either underwater at the ends, or badly damaged/destroyed.

And the National Guard did come in later, but they were not on the bridges that overlooked the Superdome.  They were on the bridges that left New Orleans and headed into Jackson Parish and other areas.  The authorities felt it was better to have them in a contained area, to facilitate aid and relocation.  It is easier to move tens of thousands of people if they are in a small area, then it is to move them if they are scattered across the entire area.

My biggest complaint when people criticize the Government response, is that they do not consider the scope of devistation.  This did not affect just New Orleans.

And for all the bashing of President Bush, I have yet to see anybody comment on the fact that he is the one that ordered the Mayor to start the evacuation.  The Mayor was going to do absolutely nothing until President Bush ordered him to.  On September 27, 2 days prior to the Hurricane hitting shore, President Bush told the Governor to start evacuation, and she ignored him also.

This is not to mention that the National Weather Service told the GOvernor and Mayor over 2 days before it hit to start evacuation.

And then there is the fact that neither the Governor nor the Mayor followed their own rules and regulations in reguards to the evacuation of the city.

President Bush ordered FEMA to mobilize at this time.  They staged in areas inland, and waited for the request from the Governor to step in.  That call came way to late.

Then let's fast-forward to September 28.  When the levees broke, President Bush put in a call to Governor Blanco, asking if she wanted FEMA to step in and take over the recovery efforts.  And what was her response?  She told him she wanted 24 hours to think it over!  It was 24 hours later that FEMA was ordered into the area.

Remember, FEMA can't step in unless the help is requested.  Because this is a matter of local government, President Bush can't order an evacuation.  All he can do is make suggestions to the local officials.  The ball is in their court at that time.  In this case, they ignored all the warnings.

The state and local officials ignored the National Weather Service.  They ignored FEMA.  They ignored their own disaster guide.  They then ignored President Bush.  And now they cry because response was not fast enough?

And no, most of this is not from Fox News.  Not that it makes any difference.  I notice this strange trend in here to in that some people ignore anything from Fox, unless it supports their beliefs.  THen, they will scream to the world that "Fox agrees with me".

http://homelandresponse.org/full_story.php?WID=13977

One reason I find the cost of this catastrophe so unnerving is the gigantic debt America is in because of the Bush Administration.  These wastrels blew our surplus on tax cuts for the rich and an imperial war for oil in Iraq.  Every day we get more and more in hock to China.  The oafish right-wing pundits who bolster the Bushies have some nerve finger-wagging anybody about self reliance when the Bushies have made America as a nation less self-reliant than ever.

You know who is going to pay the price.  The poor and the middle classs are going to pay.  The rich people are going to enjoy further tax cuts.  We may never see gas for under three bucks again. 

The raison d'etre of the Bush Adminstration is to do favors for rich people, big corporations, and military contractors.  It is too mono-minded to do anything else.

If you voted Republican, you have only yourself to blame.  Not that Democrats are all that much better.

"Ohhh, Man, that's the worst version of 'Oh Susannah' I ever heard!"

Back to Browns qualifications, I'm sure you have all heard about the problems with his resume.  We also are now seeing that the only people getting the ATM cards right now are the people in Texas.  Everyone else is being shunted around and doubled talked, if talked to at all.  The disaster continues.  Scarbourough was on television saying today that the problems could be with all the governors in the states, pointing out that Jeb Bush never had a problem when the hurricanes came to his state.  So, who thinks that that is because he is such a strong governor, or because he is the presidents brother?

How does any of that refute the size of the disaster area?  Remember, not just New Orleans was devistated.

OK, let me get this right, you say the National Guard kept people from walking out of the city.

But wait a minute, I thought part of the complaint is that it took days for the Guard to get to the devistated areas?  Now which one is it?  You can't have both no Guard, and then the Guard keeping people from walking out of the area.



no one said there were NO guards.  We said there were NOT ENOUGH guards to control the area.  It takes what, ten troops with guns to guard the end of a bridge for an unarmed crowd? It does however take more than that to keep control within the city.


BTW, the real reason people could not walk out of the area is because the bridges were either underwater at the ends, or badly damaged/destroyed.


Really? then how did the vehicles drive over it?  oh that's right, because it wasn't submerged at the other end.  There were destroyed bridges, but not all of them were destroyed. 


And the National Guard did come in later, but they were not on the bridges that overlooked the Superdome.  They were on the bridges that left New Orleans and headed into Jackson Parish and other areas.  The authorities felt it was better to have them in a contained area, to facilitate aid and relocation.  It is easier to move tens of thousands of people if they are in a small area, then it is to move them if they are scattered across the entire area.


yes, they did want to keep them controlled.  That's why they refused food aid, and didn't drop any supplies at the convention center or dome.  starving people are WAY more rational.


My biggest complaint when people criticize the Government response, is that they do not consider the scope of devistation.  This did not affect just New Orleans.


true.  but the people in other stricken areas weren't told to stay put at gun point.  they weren't told to evacuate to shelters where food was not present.


And for all the bashing of President Bush, I have yet to see anybody comment on the fact that he is the one that ordered the Mayor to start the evacuation.  The Mayor was going to do absolutely nothing until President Bush ordered him to.  On September 27, 2 days prior to the Hurricane hitting shore, President Bush told the Governor to start evacuation, and she ignored him also.


how many articles do you need links to, to disprove this.  It simply didn't happen that way.


This is not to mention that the National Weather Service told the GOvernor and Mayor over 2 days before it hit to start evacuation.

And then there is the fact that neither the Governor nor the Mayor followed their own rules and regulations in reguards to the evacuation of the city.


funny isn't it? the Republicans cry about the "blame game" and yet here they are blaming the governor and mayor. 

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=973

SECTION 2: The state of Louisiana's emergency response and recovery program is activated under the command of the director of the state office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness to prepare for and provide emergency support services and/or to minimize the effects of the storm's damage.

that's what the governor authorized Friday. 


President Bush ordered FEMA to mobilize at this time.  They staged in areas inland, and waited for the request from the Governor to step in.  That call came way to late.


no, it came two days ahead of time


Then let's fast-forward to September 28.  When the levees broke, President Bush put in a call to Governor Blanco, asking if she wanted FEMA to step in and take over the recovery efforts.  And what was her response?  She told him she wanted 24 hours to think it over!  It was 24 hours later that FEMA was ordered into the area.


but yet they called for the National Guard? hard to believe isn't it?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard last Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.

second time I've posted that.  second time I'm sure it's ignored.


Remember, FEMA can't step in unless the help is requested.  Because this is a matter of local government, President Bush can't order an evacuation.  All he can do is make suggestions to the local officials.  The ball is in their court at that time.  In this case, they ignored all the warnings.


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/interactive/timeline.katrina/content.9.html

That's August 30th.  FEMA was already moving into the region.  If they weren't authorized, I guess they broke the law?



The state and local officials ignored the National Weather Service.  They ignored FEMA.  They ignored their own disaster guide.  They then ignored President Bush.  And now they cry because response was not fast enough?

And no, most of this is not from Fox News.  Not that it makes any difference.  I notice this strange trend in here to in that some people ignore anything from Fox, unless it supports their beliefs.  THen, they will scream to the world that "Fox agrees with me".

http://homelandresponse.org/full_story.php?WID=13977


as for the state ignoring Bush, that's complete and utter fabrication. 

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?base/news-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana

note the date. 

"This is a once in a lifetime event," the mayor said. "The city of New Orleans has never seen a hurricane of this magnitude hit it directly," the mayor said.

He told those who had to move to the Superdome to come with enough food for several days and with blankets. He said it will be a very uncomfortable place and encouraged everybody who could to get out.

Nagin said police and firefighters would spread out throughout the city sounding sirens and using bullhorns to tell residents to get out. He also said police would have the authority to comandeer any vehicle or building that could be used for evacuation or shelter.

yup.  they ignored the advice, told everyone to stay home and watch TV I guess.

I ignore everything FOX prints, no matter whether it agrees with me or not.  If I can't find it on a reputable new source, or verify it by reading it reported by a second source, I simply ignore it as propaganda.  People who watch Fox News still spout off that Saddam and Osama were close as can be, and think we found WMDs in Iraq.  I feel dumber hearing Fox News when I walk into a room if it's already on.

Not sure what that site you linked to is.  It's certainly not an "official" site, and looks like it was culled together from who knows where.  The authors are listed, but not where they work.  For example, the reporter "Sandy Smith" only appears on google news as a sports writer for the Concord Monitor, NH.  I'm also willing to bet that site came into existence about 5 days ago, and is linked to from a lot of conservative blogs and other news sources.  It's a typical astro-turf campaign, like the stuff Jeff Gannon was involved with.  Write your own version of the events as a "news" article, and it suddenly becomes quoted as fact on the blogs.

Here is a timeline, with links to the articles that back up each point:

http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/09/04/katrina-response-timeline

Found it on metafilter.  granted,  it's a slanted site, but it links to sites that aren't, like the Governor's Office website, New Orleans Times Picayune, etc. Not "Joe's Newsite" or some other made up garbage.

One reason I find the cost of this catastrophe so unnerving is the gigantic debt America is in because of the Bush Administration.  These wastrels blew our surplus on tax cuts for the rich and an imperial war for oil in Iraq.  Every day we get more and more in hock to China.  The oafish right-wing pundits who bolster the Bushies have some nerve finger-wagging anybody about self reliance when the Bushies have made America as a nation less self-reliant than ever.

You know who is going to pay the price.  The poor and the middle classs are going to pay.  The rich people are going to enjoy further tax cuts.  We may never see gas for under three bucks again. 

The raison d'etre of the Bush Adminstration is to do favors for rich people, big corporations, and military contractors.  It is too mono-minded to do anything else.

If you voted Republican, you have only yourself to blame.  Not that Democrats are all that much better.


Don't worry.  The first order of business for Congress is to repeal that unfair estate tax.  The less than 1% of Amercians who are affected by it, really need that.  Otherwise, they'll be encourage to spend or donate their money instead of holding onto it.

They won't cut any of the gas tax however, because we need the money for reconstruction. 

oh, and Mike Brown, head of FEMA?

not only did he run that horse organization into the ground, his prior "emergency" experience he quotes in his resume?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1103003,00.html

Before joining FEMA, his only previous stint in emergency management, according to his bio posted on FEMA's website, was "serving as an assistant city manager with emergency services oversight." The White House press release from 2001 stated that Brown worked for the city of Edmond, Okla., from 1975 to 1978 "overseeing the emergency services division." In fact, according to Claudia Deakins, head of public relations for the city of Edmond, Brown was an "assistant to the city manager" from 1977 to 1980, not a manager himself, and had no authority over other employees. "The assistant is more like an intern," she told TIME. "Department heads did not report to him." Brown did do a good job at his humble position, however, according to his boss. "Yes. Mike Brown worked for me. He was my administrative assistant. He was a student at Central State University," recalls former city manager Bill Dashner. "Mike used to handle a lot of details. Every now and again I'd ask him to write me a speech. He was very loyal. He was always on time. He always had on a suit and a starched white shirt."

Brown's office denies this and claims he was made assistant while still a college intern in the office.  That's one heck of a promotion that no one remembers.

if you read the whole article, it only gets worse from there..

The Dems have a petition to get the dude outest. But with Dubya, he will probably get a medal.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050909/ap_on_re_us/katrina_democrats




Cat

Bush, the man who hired Brown, and fired Colin Powell....that is his legacy

The Dems have a petition to get the dude outest. But with Dubya, he will probably get a medal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050909/ap_on_re_us/katrina_democrats


well, someone finally listened:

http://www.nbc11.com/news/4952711/detail.html

bye bye... don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you

Back to Browns qualifications, I'm sure you have all heard about the problems with his resume.  We also are now seeing that the only people getting the ATM cards right now are the people in Texas.  Everyone else is being shunted around and doubled talked, if talked to at all.  The disaster continues.  Scarbourough was on television saying today that the problems could be with all the governors in the states, pointing out that Jeb Bush never had a problem when the hurricanes came to his state.  So, who thinks that that is because he is such a strong governor, or because he is the presidents brother?

I hate to say $2,000 is not enough, but $2,000 is not enough.  Not nearly enough.  I mean, it's better than nothing, but in a disaster where you've lost everything and have no resources (insurance, savings, investments) to fall back on, two grand will disappear in a finger snap.  If you are lucky, you can put down rent and security on a lousy apartment, but that's about all.  If you have credit problems and no source of income, landlords don't want to look at you even with two grand in your pocket.
I say America is morally obligated to make sure people who have lost everything don't end up permanently homeless and adrift.  The blame game isn't going to help anybody.  Saying, "well, you made bad choices in life, so you get what you deserve" is not only callous, it's useless.  Contrary to the O'Reilly philosophy, scolding people doesn't help them improve their lot in life.  Scolding people does help assuage the consciences of the truly guilty, so it is of some use to the rich and powerful

This is all I see in here nowadays, and it is so sad.

This is all I see in here nowadays, and it is so sad.

Uh, that's a pretty p*ss poor cartoon, there, Mush.  I mean, I've seen funny cartoons from the Right, this just ain't one of 'em!

This is all I see in here nowadays, and it is so sad.


Sorry, the print on that cartoon's too small for me to read.  ???

Sorry, the print on that cartoon's too small for me to read.  ???

If you click on the paper clip icon, it'll open up in a larger window.  I wouldn't bother though!

As it is dissected...hearing the FEDS were waiting for word from the Gov. to call it a disaster and get help  but she didn't do it.

The mayor may be behind the responsibitlity for those deaths..packing everyone into the Superdome and not having anything for them!

And Kanye W. is such a joke with that remark...DUH!  Bush does not like the blacks, that's why the helicopters sent in were busy rescueing THOUSANDS off the rooftops and the mayor didn't arrange for the busses or nourishment for the stranded and BUSH doesn't like blacks..REALLY!???

The stories of the rape and muggings in the dome...anyone figure there were about 9000 BLACK MEN in the place, did ANY group up to intervene???

On it goes, we can expect the Feds to respond within 48 hours ANYWHERE...the locals could have helped first but did they?
How about the 2 Billion sent to Louisianna for the levee repairs,(under Clinton I believe),looks like the person responsible for using it for the STATE found other things to use it for???

 

As it is dissected...hearing the FEDS were waiting for word from the Gov. to call it a disaster and get help  but she didn't do it.


You see, none of that matters.

I have largely given up in having anything close to a realistic debate on these subjects in here.  I have even seen people argue both sides of the same topic, the only major factor being "I hate Bush".

I wonder what would have happened if 72 hours, President Bush had ordered the evacuation of New Orleans, and then the hurricane was not as bad as it was.  Then we would be hearing about "Dictator Bush", and his horrible demands on the citizens of New Orleans.

This is simply a "Loose-Loose" situation.  And nothing he could have done would make anybody happy.

And yes, I put most of the blame on the Mayor and Governor.  They obviously did not do enough, and repeatedly violated their own disaster plans.  Our emergency shelters are stocked with food, cots, water, and portable toilets days before a hurricane strikes our area.  They were ready for Katrina, before it shifted course.  Now all those supplies are in New Orleans.  I can only hope that none of the other ones this year hit us.

Not a Bush Blamer here..I called for the dismissal of the FEMA head.. just can't believe the blindness of the professor from Louisianna with the hurricane center who I heard could not place a lot of the blame on the mayor..guy who researched the news that I rely on-earlier mentioned- is bill wattenburg on the KGO am 810 site..(click onto his particular site from there)...

THE MAYOR-HE SAYS-signed an agreement to be in charge of the evacuation plan for the city in an emergency event..others are saying , the mayor did what he was supposed to do, however, he just hoarded them like a concentration camp, together in filth...yes, there were buses, but the mayor couldn't let them go without drivers...HMMMM, so he had buses, how do buses get anywhere..UMM?? Drivers maybe?

Such a previous corrupt town..now a mayor trying but unknowledgable how to do a satisfactory practice...

Yes, the govmnt. knew of the storm coming as well, but according to law, cannot disburse the National Guard WITHOUT the request of the Governor..or it would be like 'invasion' of the government and we don't do that...

Okay, people went to a bridge on dry land..no one could get to them as they were either SAVING the drowning or dropping food or ordered to stay away..even the RED CROSS it was claimed denyed help to the stranded..ANYONE PICKING ON THAT REASON?

Well, I'm finished commenting hope we learned and show who did what for the future, BLAIMING HAS TO BE DONE..IT'S PART OF POLITICS..IF YOU ARE IN IT, YOU'LL HAVE TO BE READY TO EXPLAIN..WE VOTE FOR LEADERS AND WHEN THEY DO WRONG, WE POINT OUT THEIR FALICIES...AND POINT OUT GOOD AND BAD POINTS.

IF THEY DON'T ACCEPT THE BLAME WHEN IT POINTS TO THEM..MAYBE THEY AREN'T WORTHY OF THEIR POSITION.

If you click on the paper clip icon, it'll open up in a larger window.  I wouldn't bother though!


Having actually looked at that cartoon now, I agree with Max, it isn't all that clever.

Not a Bush Blamer here..
If Clinton was in the White House, you'd be singing a whole different tune, you and the rest of he "it's the mayor's fault, it's the governor's fault" chorus. 
Now, tell me, how does this "blame game" help the situation?  I mean, besides taking the heat off of Dubya.

If Clinton was in the White House, you'd be singing a whole different tune, you and the rest of he "it's the mayor's fault, it's the governor's fault" chorus. 
Now, tell me, how does this "blame game" help the situation?  I mean, besides taking the heat off of Dubya.


Actually, *I* would not.  And remember, I went through a natural disaster when Clinton was President.

After the 1994 Northridge Earthquake, it took FEMA about 4 days to get up and running in our area.  And we had the added advantage of not being under 10-20 feet of water, and you could easily drive into LA (as long as you were not comming from the North).

In Caifornia, we are familiar with how long it taked to get the Federal Government "up to speed" after something like this.  Our "first responders" were who they should have been, state and local organizations.  The California National Guard, Red Cross, Salvation Army, California Department of Emergency Services, and the like.  It was almost a week before we saw any noticeable help from outside the area.

That is simply how it is.  I know that I did not scream that they did not arrive soon enough, and even my father-in-law (who a lot in here would call a "Reactionary" even more conservative then I am) had no complaints on how long it took for help to arrive.  And if anybody had something to complain about, he did.  Because of freeway failures, his 1 hour commute turned into a 4 hour commute overnight.

And that was not the first time I had lived through a disaster either.  I have now been through 2 major earthquakes, and at least 4 hurricanes.  I am familiar with how long it takes for the Feds to get up and going in situations like this.

This is something that Bill O'Reily was dead right in:  For the first 48-72 hours, you are on your own.  This does not mean that you will get no help, but the help will need to come from local and state organizations.  Not even the Feds are equiped to render such a massive amount of aid without at least some time to get going.

Blame Clinton?  Nope.  He responded as fast as could be expected, considering the magnitude of destruction we had.  And Katrina was many times worse then Northridge.

This is all I see in here nowadays, and it is so sad.


and all the left sees from the right is "but it's the Mayor's fault" and "it's the Governor's fault".

they share blame, but Bush deserves the lion's share.

I responded to everyone of your talking points with facts.  I didn't see a response to that.  Just more pithy comments about how everything is "blame Bush".  That's sad.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120009

According to the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP), when responding to a catastrophic incident, the federal government should immediately begin emergency operations, even in the absence of a clear assessment of the situation. Because a "detailed and credible common operating picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states that "response activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete situation and critical needs assessment."

good thing Bush assigned a political hack to head up FEMA, instead of someone who actually did their job.

I don't know if he's the problem or not, but this is more crap journalism.  They talk about "charges he padded his resume" -- what does that mean?  To mean that means HE LIED to the people who offered him the job.  If they have evidence of that why don't they say so?  Its not like you get made head of FEMA because you go in decide to balony your way through the interview and people just take your word for it that you did what you say you did, and nobody  checks?  Yeah, of course he might of got hired because of cronyism and people not caring that he was not qualified, but that's very, very different.  That would be the governments fault not his.  People should not print crap and make ridiculous claims if they can't show evidence.


a journalist can't say someone lied.  This is the reason why it doesn't say that.  Bascially he did though.  Libermen can be blamed for not vetting this appointment.  I'm sure the Democrat leadership won't say anything to him about it though.

As it is dissected...hearing the FEDS were waiting for word from the Gov. to call it a disaster and get help  but she didn't do it.


Unfortunately you heard wrong.  The governor asked for help two days before the storm hit.  She then asked Bush athe next day for "everything he's got" and yet, silence.  Bush couldn't be bothered, he was still on vacation.  All of that doesn't matter, because FEMA is authorized by it's charter to act within 24 hours, because communication might not be in place. 

A well written analysis that pin points who said what and when is at newsweek at the moment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434/

If Clinton was in the White House, you'd be singing a whole different tune, you and the rest of he "it's the mayor's fault, it's the governor's fault" chorus. 
Now, tell me, how does this "blame game" help the situation?  I mean, besides taking the heat off of Dubya.



It helps by pointing there are problems..not leaving out the Pres. just going to the source before EVERYONE tries to dogpile on the Pres. ..he took his responsibility error, will the mayor and Gov. do the same?

Just listen to the things THEY did..WHY should the Gov. be responsible for the people that stayed behind?  The mayor led them inthe city, those that didn't leave,were called the govenrments responsibility.. Go back 7 years, Clinton was part of the picture then...where was someone toask about if the money(billlons!) for the levees was used as distributed?

As mentioned...BLAME is needed to reflect to the politicians involved, the errors or measuring of their worth.. That's giving the people who put them in office, the ability to decide who they vote for next time.
Just part of politics... 

Following the report earlier the Governor of LA tried to get help from GWB and DIDN'T hear back...I'm not certain what the report was all about that the President had asked the governor if they needed help and was told don't worry, they have it handled..

That would make sense that the Pres. took resaponsibility for the aid to arrive- when asked.

So if the state never heard back, wasn't the objective to get people to a safe place-seeing no help from the feds was coming?

The mayor signed a binding agreement that he would have the people protected...I guess that didn't mean feeding them?

Up next..do they rebuild? Better walls? A new New Orl.?


How about those destitute people who NEEDED $800 wardrobe accessories from Loius Vatton(?) or the ones pawning their debit cards for cash?

Such abhorrant people..expose them!!! Gee, it didn't have any restrictions on the card other than no tobacco or liquor products... ???

Following the report earlier the Governor of LA tried to get help from GWB and DIDN'T hear back...I'm not certain what the report was all about that the President had asked the governor if they needed help and was told don't worry, they have it handled..

That would make sense that the Pres. took resaponsibility for the aid to arrive- when asked.

So if the state never heard back, wasn't the objective to get people to a safe place-seeing no help from the feds was coming?

The mayor signed a binding agreement that he would have the people protected...I guess that didn't mean feeding them?

Up next..do they rebuild? Better walls? A new New Orl.?


How about those destitute people who NEEDED $800 wardrobe accessories from Loius Vatton(?) or the ones pawning their debit cards for cash?

Such abhorrant people..expose them!!! Gee, it didn't have any restrictions on the card other than no tobacco or liquor products... ???



Oh don't get your panties in a moralist twist.  If you lost everything you own overnight, you might like a new suit and a bottle of hooch yourself!  All this so-called looting doesn't amount to a hill of beans when you look at the catastrophe in toto.

Oh don't get your panties in a moralist twist.  If you lost everything you own overnight, you might like a new suit and a bottle of hooch yourself!  All this so-called looting doesn't amount to a hill of beans when you look at the catastrophe in toto.



Yeah, that's what MY HELP money was intended for...(the accessory, by the way were $800 designer purses)...that would have bought a LOT of FOOD for a lot of people....

How can people like that take that kind of money and do that is beyond me.

Hey look..I knew this would happen  there are 3 guys looting

Yeah but there are 25000 sitting over there waiting for help

(yeah fine)Look at those over there, they are shooting and I heard there were rapes

Yeah, but these 16000 over here are helping each other and the rescue workers

(nice), ok Look look over there you just know they are gonna spend their money in Las Vegas

Out of the number of people anywhere you know you will get some who are idiots, con men, criminals

( this is them )This is different,

Hey look..I knew this would happen  there are 3 guys looting

Yeah but there are 25000 sitting over there waiting for help


The Lord helps them who help themselves...to plasma TVs and silk hats!
;)

And THAT'S why we need a better plan to distribute the help...I can't even go to a STRIP CLUB and here they are doing it with my donation!

And THAT'S why we need a better plan to distribute the help...I can't even go to a STRIP CLUB and here they are doing it with my donation!


Who are they?  I know a lot of people in New York and no one has questioned what the 9/11 people did with their money. It wasn't an issue, the question was never ever raised.  But now the question is being raised about what "they" are doing with "your" money. "They" are taking the money, "they" are buying liquor, "they" are getting drunk "they"  are going to Vegas, none of "them" can be trusted to do the right thing with "your" money.  We all know who you mean by "they",  you mean anyone with skin darker than yours.  You are a racist and this is racist talk.

Who are they?  I know a lot of people in New York and no one has questioned what the 9/11 people did with their money. It wasn't an issue, the question was never ever raised.  But now the question is being raised about what "they" are doing with "your" money. "They" are taking the money, "they" are buying liquor, "they" are getting drunk "they"  are going to Vegas, none of "them" can be trusted to do the right thing with "your" money.  We all know who you mean by "they",  you mean anyone with skin darker than yours.  You are a racist and this is racist talk.


How DARE YOU!!! Your world must really be full of tearing others down! I am so sorry for your world..when someone points out LEGITIMATE FACTS....YOU make it to be a RACE issue!

You should be ashamed of your stinkin' thinking!

The NY situation is no different IF the people who received contributions MISUSED them.

We KNOW the debit cards given were MISUSED by the hurricane victims and NO RACE was ever mentioned WHO squandered OUR money away.

'THEY', Who I am referring to are the ones abusing the system for the rest!

Check your facts THEN tell me who the 'THEY' are ..I would say the same for the NY victims..(I have no idea how money was distributed to them), but I would think the NY victims went through charities that legitimately checked on who got paid money or if it to go to family expenses compared to HANDING it out to a line of people.
How would the help in NEW ORLEANS know who they gave money to and who they didn't..again a better system has to be formed..money into accounts will only make CASH available to ANYONE who may use it to pay for drugs or non-essential items.

Oh, now I'm not letting addicts use the money the way they would like...LEARN from this then tell me it's a racist issue! ???