» OLD MESSAGE ARCHIVES «
The Pop Culture Information Society...
Messageboard Archive Index, In The 00s - The Pop Culture Information Society

Welcome to the archived messages from In The 00s. This archive stretches back to 1998 in some instances, and contains a nearly complete record of all the messages posted to inthe00s.com. You will also find an archive of the messages from inthe70s.com, inthe80s.com, inthe90s.com and amiright.com before they were combined to form the inthe00s.com messageboard.

If you are looking for the active messages, please click here. Otherwise, use the links below or on the right hand side of the page to navigate the archives.

Custom Search



Subject: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/07/05 at 4:22 pm

Can America ever get a third party going anywhere? If so, I'd like to hear who you would be likely to vote for. Maybe some of you have already voted for a third party. Clue us in.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Rice_Cube on 11/07/05 at 4:42 pm

Probably the Libertarian Party.  I think I am more libertarian than conservative anyway.

They could always bring back the Whigs or the Bull Moose Party :D

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/07/05 at 4:43 pm

I voted "other" because I don't vote for parties, but for candidates. 

The problem is that the way our electoral system is set up, the odds for a 3rd party canditate approach zero (Vermont is the obvious exception).  "Winner take all" systems like ours favor a two party system, proportional representation, as some countries use, favor multi-party systems.  If you look at Cat's "you who voted for Bush" thread you will see that at least some here "held their noses" and voted (either way) for B or K, and I'll bet the same thing happened at every level of gov't.  I'm not saying we should change our system, but it does have its limitations.  There are strong arguments on both sides.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: cs on 11/07/05 at 4:47 pm

Libertarian - as long as they were decent candidates.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/07/05 at 4:51 pm


Libertarian - as long as they were decent candidates.


My point was that mostly, no matter good the candidate, its either the dems or repubs who will get elected.  There must be a better way.  Might I suggest "workplace democracy"?  Now that could be a concept.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: GoodRedShirt on 11/07/05 at 5:47 pm

If I were American or able to vote in an American election, It'd probably be either Green (depends what they are like), Indedepndent or Libertarian.

It's not like voting for a small party really matters in the States, unlike here where small political parties can get some voice.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/07/05 at 5:48 pm

As a conservative who feels the republican party needs to start acting more conservative, probably the constitution party.  But I could easily see myself voting for the libertarian or the America first parties.

All I want for Christmas is a Jim Gilchrist victory.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: CatwomanofV on 11/07/05 at 6:56 pm

Other: Like Carlos said, I vote for the candidate-not the party. However, I do like the Progressive Party.





Cat

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Tanya1976 on 11/07/05 at 7:02 pm


Libertarian - as long as they were decent candidates.


Either this party or the Independence party. It's all about the candidates, though.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/07/05 at 9:53 pm

Until we get out from under yoke of internation fascist corporatism, it doesn't matter whether we have two parties or twenty parties.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/07/05 at 10:24 pm

I chose the Social Democrats, who are the less idealistic leftovers of the long defunct Socialist Party of America. I did this despite the fact that they supported Reagan in 1980 for some crazy reason.

The Democratic Socialists of America, which is the largest socialist group in America, does not usually run candidates and usually puts its support behind the Democratic candidate, otherwise I would have included them in this poll instead.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Billy Florio on 11/07/05 at 10:35 pm

Libertarian

but I also echo Don Carlos...it's the canditate thats more important than the party.  In an ideal world thats how everyone would vote.  Its impossible though.   

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: alyceclover on 11/07/05 at 10:37 pm

I've voted for 3rd party candidates when I didn't like either of the Dem/Rep choices in an effort to show support for 3rd (4th, 5th...) party system....problem I found with the one's I researched, each had at least one platform I wasn't in favor of. The general opinion was that only the Dem/Rep will win, so not to waste one's vote on a different party.  There's more than two flavors of ice cream, so why have parties at all? I don't feel represented by any of the representatives voted into any office. Stopped contacting them, when I received form letter replies that clearly showed my letters were never read.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Alchoholica on 11/07/05 at 10:40 pm

Independance Party. I'm a big Jesse fan.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Tia on 11/07/05 at 11:29 pm

i am fully SICK of the two-party scam. having said that, the last couple times i've gone to the polls i've voted for a dem, just because i feel stuck -- either the independent isn't on the ballot (hello? where was nader in 2004 in virginia?) or it was really close and the republican was so repulsive i couldn't bring myself not to vote for the dem.

i love the greens, although it's funny -- i almost see, if there was a third-party renaissance, you'd end up with the lefties voting for the greens and the righties voting for the libertarians and we'd basically be where we started...

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/07/05 at 11:32 pm

I thought about Libertarianism before the election, and I researched Badarnik (sp?) during the election. I had always thought of them as the great third option; the middle way. But after some research I quickly came to the conclusion that I just flat out did not agree with their philosophy in general.

I've also met more than one person who voted for them not because they agreed with the philosophy or thoroughly researched the platform... but because of their desire to be contrarian and to feel above the rest of the votership. The sort of "well neither candidate is worthy of my vote" attitude is what I'm talking about. My response to these people during the election was basically something like "well, of all the reasons one could have to throw his or her vote away, that one must be the most ignoble." I seriously have more respect for the people supporting the ultra hard-right Christian candidates, because at least their decision to vote third-party stemmed from an honest conviction.

Surely the vast majority of people who voted Libertarian did so because they truly believed in the Libertarian message, but has anyone else run into the sort of person I described above? Maybe I'm just unlucky.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Dagwood on 11/08/05 at 10:56 pm



but I also echo Don Carlos...it's the canditate thats more important than the party.  In an ideal world thats how everyone would vote.  Its impossible though.   


Joining in the chorus of echos for the candidate not the party.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Tia on 11/09/05 at 1:25 pm


Joining in the chorus of echos for the candidate not the party.


we should start a "candidate not the party" party.

wait. my head just blew up.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/09/05 at 3:55 pm


Joining in the chorus of echos for the candidate not the party.


The problem is, that to get support from either major party (mostly) you gotta "pay your dues", which makes you, +/- be a party hack.  As I said above, there are +'s and -'s to all systems of representation.  2 party systems force compromise behind closed doors, multi-party systems (proportional representation) encourage ideologically narrow parties and force compromises into the public arena, but tend to be more divisive.  Its a tough nut to crack.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/11/05 at 6:06 am

A wise man once said that there's not a dime's worth of difference between the Republicans and Democrats.  It's good to see that others see that reality here.

I am a Constitutionalist, and as such align myself with the Constitution Party and/or the Libertarian Party.  I only vote for candidates of the major parties depending on their stands on the issues.

The perfect candidate would be one who would bring our country back to the Constitutional restraints.  This means no income taxes, no gun control, little or no Federal land ownership, a currency based on gold, and no frickin' spy cameras.  We are human beings; not inventory, and not cattle.  Sadly, the creatures who finance this game won't let such a thing happen.  The last presidents who tried such a thing were shot, one mortally, one nearly so that his Vice-president ran the country (according to insiders).

Cheer, y'all.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/15/05 at 12:01 pm

No income taxes means no schools, no libraries, no social insurance.

No gun control is a cry for trouble.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/15/05 at 1:10 pm

Interesting...considering that until 1913, the US didn't have an income tax (except for the War of Federal Aggression; about the only good thing that Lincoln did was abolish that tax at the war's end), and there were no worries about social insurance, or libraries, or schools.  Those things were left up to the states and private individuals and charities.

As for no gun control being a cry for trouble, you really have your head up your @$$, don't you?  Everywhere gun control has been implemented, crime has jumped.  Australia experienced an increase in crime after they banned ownership of guns (iirc, armed robberies increased 400% in a year's time).  Historically, there has been little crime in places where gun ownership is unrestricted.  This is because criminals do NOT want a victim to fight back, and that's just what a gun, and the knowledge and willingness to use it, does.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/15/05 at 2:24 pm


Interesting...considering that until 1913, the US didn't have an income tax (except for the War of Federal Aggression; about the only good thing that Lincoln did was abolish that tax at the war's end), and there were no worries about social insurance, or libraries, or schools.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Davester on 11/15/05 at 2:53 pm

  Third parties can make a difference. Everyone talks about Nader's 5%, what about Ross Perot's 20%? Clinton would never have beat Bush #1 without Perot sucking all those votes away from Bush. I've heard in some battleground states Republicans were helping get Nader on the ballot.  Eh...mebbe, mebbe not...

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: CatwomanofV on 11/15/05 at 3:15 pm


  Third parties can make a difference. Everyone talks about Nader's 5%, what about Ross Perot's 20%? Clinton would never have beat Bush #1 without Perot sucking all those votes away from Bush. I've heard in some battleground states Republicans were helping get Nader on the ballot.  Eh...mebbe, mebbe not...



Welcome back. Long time no see.




Cat

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Davester on 11/15/05 at 3:24 pm



Welcome back. Long time no see.




Cat


  Hiya Kitty Cat!! :)

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/15/05 at 4:07 pm

I vote for All Tomorrow's Parties

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/5083/nico.jpg

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/15/05 at 5:39 pm


I vote for All Tomorrow's Parties

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/5083/nico.jpg

Yes!

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Davester on 11/15/05 at 5:44 pm


I vote for All Tomorrow's Parties

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/5083/nico.jpg



  More (or just as much) a political force as the Beatles, no?

  So where do you fall-in?  "Eccentric musician, hustler, pimp, beat or dope fiend...."  A kinder, gentler world, indeed! :P

 

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/15/05 at 5:59 pm


And WHERE do the majority of illegal handguns used to commit violent crimes in Canada come from??? You guessed it, the USA!


True.  But it's Canadians coming down and buying them and smuggling them into Canada.  It's not Americans doing that.

And if you want to point to Canada, let me point to Washington D.C.  D.C. has the strictest gun control in the nation and probably the highest crime rate.  Why is that?

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/15/05 at 7:16 pm

Sorry to upset you, McDonald, but I happen to be one of those individuals who do NOT suffer fools gladly.

If you did ANY serious review of history, you would find that tyrannical gov'ts will ALWAYS disarm their people before moving against them.  It happened in the USSR, Japan, Nazi Germany, Red China, Laos, VietNam, and that's just the 20th century.  Every time a gov't has disarmed their people, massive extermination campaigns have followed.

"Regulations" (laws) that forbid or limit your ability to buy, possess, and use a weapon that you can use to protect your life are prima facie evil.  The intent of such laws is to make you helpless before those who would rule you, to make you subervient to their whim.

Think about it.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/15/05 at 7:28 pm


Sorry to upset you, McDonald, but I happen to be one of those individuals who do NOT suffer fools gladly, especially whiny, self-important 20-year-olds who bitch about getting third prize in a story writing contest (yes, I read your blog, and for those who wish to see it to believe it, go here:

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/15/05 at 7:38 pm

He has the link on his profile.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/15/05 at 7:48 pm


He has the link on his profile.


Well, now I feel dumb.  So simple and obvious.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Tia on 11/15/05 at 8:03 pm


Sorry to upset you, McDonald, but I happen to be one of those individuals who do NOT suffer fools gladly, especially whiny, self-important 20-year-olds who bitch about getting third prize in a story writing contest (yes, I read your blog, and for those who wish to see it to believe it, go here:

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/15/05 at 10:56 pm

Sorry, Tia, but as I said before, I do not suffer fools gladly, and anyone who apparently approves of restricting my ability to gain the tools necessary to protect me and mine, in spite of historical evidence that is easily available, is a fool of the greatest caliber.

(Tangent to--->

And I never said that SoDamn Insane wasn't a tyrant, nor did I deny that he did terrible horrible things to his own people (ie, the Kurds).  However, even he wasn't stupid/crazy enough to try and do his terrible horrible things to people who had guns.  Like all bullies, he inflicted his pain on people who were unarmed, or at least were unable to do anything about their situation.

Is he a Hitler?  Maybe.  Then again, Hitler disarmed the entire populace of Germany, and then forced about 6 million of his citizens into extermination/slave labor camps because they were Jews, Slavs, Poles, True Christians (ie, Martin Niemoller), and political opponents.  Hitler also started a war to extend Germany into the neighboring countries, where he expanded his extermination/labor camps, and ended up killing over 20 million human beings, a 20th Century record matched only by Stalin.

Hussein slew, so far as I know, only thousands, not including his attack on Kuwait, which MAY have been justified (many geological reports show that Kuwait had been "diagonal drilling" into Iraq's oil fields.  If Hussein is a Hitler, then he is lesser only because he didn't kill as many people as Hitler did.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/15/05 at 11:24 pm



Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/16/05 at 11:33 am


Sorry to upset you, McDonald, but I happen to be one of those individuals who do NOT suffer fools gladly.

If you did ANY serious review of history, you would find that tyrannical gov'ts will ALWAYS disarm their people before moving against them.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/16/05 at 11:39 am


Well, now I feel dumb.


Finally, we agree on something!

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/16/05 at 12:02 pm

Oh, McDonald, poor, angry, hateful, hoplophobic McDonald.

I really do pity you.  You are so filled with rage (at what I do not know) that you cannot stand for someone to burst your little bubble of your life.

I was going to point out that you cannot refute my historical citations, or the fact that the British government has yet to go apesh!t on their citizens BECAUSE THEY DON'T YET KNOW WHO STILL HAS GUNS (Hitler's Germany had a list of registered gun owners, thanks to the Wiemar Republic), but I realized that it would be a waste of keystrokes.  You have no desire to search out the truth, and for that you can thank MTV and it's pantheon of "gods" that you apparently worship.

As for my criticism of your blog, you should know that when you post something on your blog, you open yourself up for just such a thing, whether they agree or disagree with you.

I really do hope that you find a way to get over your hatred, otherwise it will consume you.  Eventually, nothing will be left of you, only the hatred will remain, and that will be dissipated like a puff of smoke in the wind.  Get help.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/16/05 at 1:46 pm


People in the UK are not allowed to own firearms....


They're allowed to own shotguns and rifles, just not handguns.

I realise you were a little annoyed about how I exposed your pre-1913 example for the stream of illogical

What exactly is it you exposed?

Finally, we agree on something!

Oh that's funny.


Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/16/05 at 1:49 pm


Finally, we agree on something!

You feel dumb too, eh?
;)

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/16/05 at 3:56 pm


No gun control is a cry for trouble.


"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." -Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/16/05 at 4:41 pm

First off, this IanWinn person is is coming across as an arrogant SOB who needs to read the rules of debate on this board and in general.  I don't mind his expressing his opinion, but I do mind his belittling of other posters.  Reminds me of the old adage among lawyers - if the facts are on your side, pound the facts, if the law is on your side, pound the law, if neither are on yous side, pound the table.  Ian seems to pound the table a lot.  So who is the "fool"?  So lets tune down the rhetoric and try to be a bit more civil.


"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." -Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto


Right, and you and your hunting rifle are going to defeat - who?  Cartainly not an invading army since that is just silly.  Could it be that you might want to  try to stop a military coup?  And how many masses (armed with hunting rifles) does it take to stop a tank?

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Tia on 11/16/05 at 6:45 pm

Right, and you and your hunting rifle are going to defeat - who?

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/16/05 at 10:10 pm


"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." -Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

Yamomoto was right.  His point is irrelevant to the problems America has with civilian-on-civilian gun deaths.  The future health of our country requires a better understanding of why there is so much gun violence in America.  I don't believe it is solely because there are so many guns.  I do believe it has much to do with the levels of selfishness, rage, inequality, and alienation among our population.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/16/05 at 10:45 pm

Don Carlos, you don't stop a tank with a rifle, at least not directly.  What you do is you take out the tank's supply line.  This includes the trucks carrying fuel (iirc, tanks burn 2-3 gallons of diesel fuel per hour, whether they're sitting still or running at 40 mph), the mechanics who service them, and (when possible) the drivers of the tanks (as Kurt Saxon once said, "They gotta get out and pee SOMETIME!").

The only time that you would attack a tank directly is when it has shut down for the night.  Official SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for powered down tanks is to park themselves in the midst of the infantry, because when they are powered down, they are vulnerable.  Historically, though, tankers eventually park away from the infantry, because their skills usually qualify them for better/more food, smokes, etc.  In that situation, you can use thermite grenades to disable or destroy them.  Furthermore, if you have suppressed weapons, you can take out the tank crews as well.

The only other weapon that would be effective against a tank would be a flamethrower.  A flamethrower is essentially a canister of napalm under pressure.  There is a small pilot flame at the end of the hose, and using that hose you would have to coat the whole outside of the tank.  The crew would have to close up all ports to prevent the napalm from getting in, but that would only serve to do two things:  1) it would limit their oxygen supply, and 2) the heat from the burning napalm would turn their superweapon into a great big oven, and they'd end up being cooked like Thanksgiving turkeys.

Did I come down hard on McDonald?  Perhaps I did, but as I said before, I am one of those people who do not suffer fools gladly, and anyone who refuses to examine their history, anyone whose sole purpose in life seems to be the next concert, anyone who is unconcerned about the forces of darkness billowing around and preparing to destroy humanity in the name of profit is a fool.  I should know, because I was pretty much in his same position 15-20 years ago.  It took losing EVERYTHING (job, house, family heirlooms, car) to force me to examine my life and what I was doing and where I was going.  It took alot of hunger, alot of prayer, and alot of work, but I made my changes.  I also looked at the world around me and I realized that things were INCREDIBLY, UNDENIABLY WRONG.  I then made choices that have put me in a place where I can see things better, and can prepare for them

Very Bad Things are coming in this world, and they don't care if you are Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative.  They will only be concerned if you are useful, and the moment you cease to be useful, you are discarded like a piece of paper.  They see you as cattle to be branded and then consumed as they see fit.  You think SoDamn Insane was bad?  You think Dubya is bad?  As BTO sang, "You ain't seen nothin' yet!"

I'm sorry, McDonald if I came down on you hard, but you need to open your eyes and see the world for what it is, not what you think it is.  Do the research, get the information, and ponder it.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/16/05 at 10:55 pm


Don Carlos, you don't stop a tank with a rifle, at least not directly.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/16/05 at 10:59 pm

No, I just read up on military history.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Davester on 11/17/05 at 4:37 am



I am one of those people who do not suffer fools gladly, and anyone who refuses to examine their history, anyone whose sole purpose in life seems to be the next concert, anyone who is unconcerned about the forces of darkness billowing around and preparing to destroy humanity in the name of profit is a fool.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Davester on 11/17/05 at 4:49 am

  Oh, just one thing...I didn't vote in the above poll because I haven't decided yet...

  But something struck me just now; the title of this thread, "...If They Had A Chance"??


  *shrugs*

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: danootaandme on 11/17/05 at 7:27 am


No, I just read up on military history.



And social history?  Perhaps you should put down Soldier of Fortune and pick up some Howard Zinn

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: Tia on 11/17/05 at 9:05 am

hmm. suddenly i'm agreeing with everybody again. the whole lacking knowledge of cultures etc. thing -- it's funny, when i go to england i'm regularly ridiculed for not knowing holland from denmark and such things, which to me seems a tad unfair, seeing as how for an american these places are several thousand miles away, but for a european it would be something more akin to not knowing idaho from indiana.... that said, i think american lack of knowledge of central and south america is pretty scandalous, and goes to the "global south" issue, which is cultural and economic. central and south america is viewed in the US as a source of raw materials and resources and so most people don't bother to learn much about it.

i think danootaandme is right about ianwinn could use to maybe read about social history (people's history of the US is a great book) but i was also perversely interested in the whole how-do-you-stop-a-tank thing. i waiver and sometimes come around to ian's point of view -- it might seem paranoid but resistance to the idea i sometimes think is less from a reasoned POV than from a gut resistance to imagine the government using its military force against its own citizens. but i couldn't help but notice the government is projecting force all around the world in a fairly free and loose fashion (we're just learning the army's using white phosphorus in iraq, which is a truly horrifying weapon) and i'm not sure they'd hesitate to crack down on americans in such a way if there were widespread demonstrations in the streets.

i love to point this out -- this government has the most power, political, military, and economic, that any government has ever had in history. so think of what other governments have done to hang onto their power. whatever crazy and brutal things these other governments have done to keep their power, this government has even more motive than they did. know what i mean?

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: McDonald on 11/17/05 at 11:21 am


Oh, McDonald, poor, angry, hateful, hoplophobic McDonald.

I really do pity you.

Subject: Re: Third Parties You Would Vote For If They Had A Chance

Written By: IanWinn on 11/18/05 at 2:02 pm

McDonald, you said, "I have made many posts on this board in support of hunting rights, in support of the right to own guns for that purpose... but I do not and will not protect someone's "right" to freely operate an assault rifle, a grenade, or worse. That behaviour is extremely anti-social and needs to be restricted."

I'm assuming that you mean you don't want people going around shooting someone's else's head off whenever something happens (such as a bumper-ding in the parking lot).  I'm against that as well.  That's why we have laws and penalties for crimes like murder and homicide.  There are also laws that permit hunting, and regulate the kind of weapons that can be used for hunting (ie, you can't use a rifle during bow-hunting season, and vice-versa).

However, that is not the point of the Second Amendment.  The Second Amendment is meant that the people have access to the same kind of weapons as the battlefield soldier.  The writers had just gained independence from Great Britain, and they did it, at least in part, because the people had access to the same weapons as the battlefield solder of the day.  If the Second Amendment were truly in force today, then anyone could walk into a hardware store and purchase any weapon they wanted, including fully automatic M-16's, AK-47's, AK-74's (much superior to the M-16), grenades, even bazookas  and recoilless rifles.  They would NOT be able to purchase nuclear weapons because such things are not part of the battlefield soldier's kit (not to mention they are prohibitively expensive).

The founding fathers knew that if the government were to become tyrannical (which most people here can see that it is), they wanted the people to have access to the same weapons as the battlefield soldier, because that's who the government would send.  They're not likely to send nuclear bombs, because the radiation would prevent the land from being farmed, and even THEY have to eat, too.

Read your American and World history.  I also suggest The Federalist Papers (which lays the foundation for the Constitution) and The Anti-Federalist Papers (which lays the foundation for The Bill of Rights).

Peace!

Check for new replies or respond here...