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Subject: Let section 5 die already

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/21/05 at 4:04 am

Georgia Republicans challenging Voting Rights Act renewal, likely in vain
The Macon Telegraph
By: Jeffrey McMurray
11/20/2005

WASHINGTON - A school closes that once housed a polling place. For the next election, city officials send voters to a new site across the street. In Boston, no problem. In Atlanta, no problem provided the federal government grants permission.

Such has been the law for 40 years under the Voting Rights Act, which sought to end racist poll taxes and literacy tests by putting Southern states - then the worst offenders, without question - on a shorter leash than most other places.

Now President Bush, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and congressional leaders from both political parties are pushing to renew this requirement for 25 more years. Although it doesn't expire until 2007, continuation of Section 5 - the provision involving federal preclearance of voting laws - seems a foregone conclusion.

Still, a handful of Southern Republicans - particularly those from Georgia - are determined to mount a spirited dissent, though they realize it will probably be in vain.

"It's just a matter of feeling dissed when you know you've paid for your sins or the sins of your forefathers, and it wasn't even our party that did it," said Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Ga.

Congress is just a few weeks into its hearings on the act's renewal, but most have involved a parade of witnesses who support extending the requirement and a small handful who don't. So Rep. Lynn Westmoreland, a Georgia Republican in his first congressional term, decided it's time for the other side to mobilize.

Earlier this month, Westmoreland called a meeting of several Southern Republicans whose states are subject to Section 5 approval. He shared with them some facts involving his state of Georgia.

First, blacks there now turn out to vote at a higher rate than whites, according to a study by two political scientists. Second, the state has little trouble electing minorities to office. Four of 13 members of the U.S. House are black, as is Thurbert Baker, who was easily re-elected as the state's attorney general.

"I'm not going to deny there weren't problems," Westmoreland said. "But right now, if you look at those same communities where there were problems, those communities are controlled by minorities."

Ironically, the loudest voices for continuing Section 5 use the same primary argument as those who want to scrap it. They just insist the progress happened mostly because the Voting Rights Act was there at all. Take that away, they fear, and discrimination returns in force.

At a news conference this past week largely in response to Westmoreland's efforts, Rep. John Lewis, a Georgia Democrat and civil rights leader, called Section 5 "the heart of the act." His Georgia Democratic colleagues agreed, with Rep. David Scott predicting a "full-frontal assault" by opponents. "In an ideal world we would not need the Voting Rights Act, and in an ideal world we could apply Section 5 across the board without watering it down and making it ineffective," said Rep. Sanford Bishop, D-Ga. "But if history, both past and present, teaches us anything, it's that we do not live in an ideal world."

In just a few months as a congressman, this is the second time Westmoreland has led a chorus of few on an otherwise unpopular crusade. After Hurricane Katrina slammed the Gulf Coast, he voted against a $52 billion aid package that passed overwhelmingly, not convinced there was enough fiscal management.

"I think it takes some political courage to do what's right," Westmoreland said.

Westmoreland contends Congress should either scrap the Section 5 requirement altogether or make it apply to every state. Proponents say that idea is no better because it would dilute civil rights challenges and make the law far more likely to be overturned by the courts on the grounds the federal government is infringing on states' rights.

The congressman says he is confident most Georgia Republicans are with him, including Sen. Saxby Chambliss, who acknowledges he has similar concerns. But some other Southern lawmakers, including two Republicans from neighboring Alabama, are torn.

Rep. Jo Bonner, from Mobile, says the Voting Rights Act shouldn't be eliminated if it means a return to the days of discrimination. Still, he says, there is inherent unfairness.

"You're applying a standard on the Southern states you're not applying elsewhere," Bonner said. "In Columbus, Ohio, you don't have to pre-clear when moving a voting precinct from a church in one part of town to another part of town. We do in Thomasville, Alabama. It's not punishment, but it's added expense."

Actually, civil rights leaders even dispute that point. Officials say the cost of going through the hoops of Section 5 is less than 3 percent of what it takes to run an election, usually far less.

Under the Voting Rights Act, "retrogression" against minorities isn't allowed, but even 40 years later, there are various opinions on what exactly that means.

For most of that period, it was assumed an election change - such as redistricting, which Georgia has done twice in the last few years - couldn't dilute the ability of minorities to elect candidates they choose to office. But in the 2003 Supreme Court case Georgia v. Ashcroft, the justices found such plans could be approved provided they still let black voters influence an election.

Rep. Spencer Bachus, R-Ala., who sits on the Judiciary Committee's Constitution panel, which is considering reauthorization, calls the retrogression standard a "mixed bag" that needs to be revamped.

"I'm going to try to find out if we could salvage Section 5 by bringing more clarity to it," Bachus said. "If we can't do that, I would just support letting it expire." Supporters of reauthorization say it's fitting that the most vocal opposition is coming from Georgia, which recently had a federal court rule it couldn't enact a new law requiring voters without a driver's license to pay for a state-issued ID badge. Lewis equates the move to a poll tax, falling disproportionately on minorities, but the Justice Department cleared it.

The Georgia Republicans aren't claiming they have the votes in Congress to sink Section 5, but they insist they aren't afraid to try.

"That happens sometimes," Gingrey said. "You don't have much of a snowball's chance in hell of winning. You still feel like it's the right thing to do, so you strap on your helmet, go out there, and if you fail, you walk away with your pride."

Link: http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/politics/13214603.htm

--Is it still the 1960's?

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/21/05 at 7:35 am

I wish you hadn't posted that article.  I haven't a thing to say in response that wouldn't start a total sh*tstorm!

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/21/05 at 3:50 pm

Every state under section 5, except Arizona, is a southern state.  And I have yet for one person to tell me why New York can pass any voting law they want, but here in 2005 Georgia has to pay extra money to ask the all-knowing federal government.  It's total bullsh**.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/21/05 at 4:31 pm

Well, Max's reluctance not withstanding, I seem to remember a biblical injunction that says something like "the sins on the fathers shall be visited on the seventh son of the seventh son".  Clearly, it was southern Dems (Trent Lott was one) who supported segregation, but the "Southern Strategy" of the repugs was to "out negro" (can't type that other "n" word) the Dems.  So I say, live with it.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/21/05 at 6:14 pm


So I say, live with it.


If it's so great, why not call your representative and tell him that you want Vermont to be a state under section five?

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/21/05 at 8:09 pm

What do some dumb laws mean to Katherine Harris and Kenneth Blackwell, anyway?  Oh for a Jimmy Carter brigade at every polling station!
::)

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/21/05 at 8:51 pm


I wish you hadn't posted that article.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/21/05 at 9:36 pm


Come on now, say it.

Don't push me, man, I'm warnin' you, dooon't push me!
;)

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: danootaandme on 11/22/05 at 8:34 am


Georgia Republicans challenging Voting Rights Act renewal, likely in vain
The Macon Telegraph
By: Jeffrey McMurray
11/20/2005

WASHINGTON -

"It's just a matter of feeling dissed when you know you've paid for your sins or the sins of your forefathers, and it wasn't even our party that did it," said Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Ga.




I'll just put my two cents in on this line. Rep. Gingrey is saying that the sins that brought about the
necessity of this law were the sins of the Democratic Party.  Now we all know that isn't true in any way shape or form.  It wasn't a Rep/Dem thing it was a mindset shared by the caucasian majority.  The minute I read that I decided that maybe it is still to early to change. 

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/22/05 at 1:13 pm


I'll just put my two cents in on this line. Rep. Gingrey is saying that the sins that brought about the
necessity of this law were the sins of the Democratic Party.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: danootaandme on 11/22/05 at 3:52 pm




Can you believe the GOP still calls itself the party of Lincoln?  Sure, Lincoln Navigators!



LOL  ;D

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: Billy Florio on 11/22/05 at 4:40 pm


Isn't funny how in Georgia you've got your Gingrich and you've got your Gingrey?
:D

Can you believe the GOP still calls itself the party of Lincoln?

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: danootaandme on 11/22/05 at 4:41 pm


and the Dems still call themselves the party of Jefferson. 


So I quess the theme song would be "Sweet Black Angel"

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/22/05 at 4:46 pm


If it's so great, why not call your representative and tell him that you want Vermont to be a state under section five?  I mean it's so great, why can't Vermont share in the greatness?


While Vermonters are certainly not without our share of guilt in this hedious racial morass we, as a nation forged for ourselves, I would point out that Vermont abolished slavery even before we joined the union in 1791 (as a result of the adoption of the Bill of Rights), that Vermont troops were at the forefront of every Civil War battle in which they were engaged, and that we lost more dead and wounded in those engagements per capita, turning the tide of several key battles, than any other union state contingent.  I would also point out that there has never been a complaint brought against any Vermont polling place for disallowing a voter that I know of that has been in any way associated with race.  Can any of our brethern in Dixie, where old times are not forgotten, make the same claim?  In short, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Vermont "shares in the greatness" of being at the forefront of ending your "peculiar institution" (an honor I can't claim since my ansestors only got here in the early 20th Century) and in pioneering the end of slavery.  I'm proud to have become part of that tradition.  So, how many "servants" did Phil Gregorie's ancestors "own"?

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/22/05 at 4:53 pm

The repugs are certainly no longer the party of Lincoln, since they are decidedly anti-labor, and the Dem are certainly no longer the party of Jefferson.  But this is a stupid discussion.  The Repugs are now the party of the rich and corporate America, and the Dems are the party of the slightly less rich and corporate America.  Howard?  Howard?  where are you?  Do we need a revolution?

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: GWBush2004 on 11/22/05 at 6:41 pm

How can there be that many white racists in Vermont?  Vermont is the most white state in the union according to the 2000 census.  97% white.  Vermont has no room to talk. 

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/22/05 at 11:08 pm


and the Dems still call themselves the party of Jefferson.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: danootaandme on 11/23/05 at 6:54 am


How can there be that many white racists in Vermont?  Vermont is the most white state in the union according to the 2000 census.  97% white.  Vermont has no room to talk. 


There are many white racists who have never lived in close proximity to persons other than themselves.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/23/05 at 5:59 pm


How can there be that many white racists in Vermont?  Vermont is the most white state in the union according to the 2000 census.  97% white.  Vermont has no room to talk. 


Just wait one friggin second, who said there were large numbers of racists in Vermont?  Clearly, there are racists here, as everywhere, but large numbers?  And are you suggesting that the more "dark people" that live in an area, the more racists there will be?  And Vermont has every reason to be proud of its history as an anti-slave nation and then state, and it's struggle against the south's "peculiar institution", which is what the southern states tried to defend with their treason.

Vermont was a MAJOR stop on the underground railroad, and Vermonters were very active in frustrating the fugitive slave law.  The fact that black people didn't settle here has more to do with the economics of the "burned over" districts and their vulnerability to slave catcher than anything else, and in modern times, Vermont is exporting people, as is most of New England, but that has little to do with race.  By the way, there was a runaway slave community just north of Fair Haven, out in the woods, that was aided, supported, and hidden by the community.  It has been excavated by archiologists.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: danootaandme on 11/24/05 at 8:39 am


Just wait one friggin second, who said there were large numbers of racists in Vermont?  Clearly, there are racists here, as everywhere, but large numbers?  And are you suggesting that the more "dark people" that live in an area, the more racists there will be?  And Vermont has every reason to be proud of its history as an anti-slave nation and then state, and it's struggle against the south's "peculiar institution", which is what the southern states tried to defend with their treason.

Vermont was a MAJOR stop on the underground railroad, and Vermonters were very active in frustrating the fugitive slave law.  The fact that black people didn't settle here has more to do with the economics of the "burned over" districts and their vulnerability to slave catcher than anything else, and in modern times, Vermont is exporting people, as is most of New England, but that has little to do with race.  By the way, there was a runaway slave community just north of Fair Haven, out in the woods, that was aided, supported, and hidden by the community.  It has been excavated by archiologists.


I gotta say, living in New England the two most comfortable states I have visited are Maine and Vermoni. I never experienced anything but civility to down right friendly. Massachusetts has problems, but since I grew up here I know how to "navigate".  Connecticut and New Hampshire are out as far as travel, out and out racism.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/25/05 at 3:09 pm


I gotta say, living in New England the two most comfortable states I have visited are Maine and Vermoni. I never experienced anything but civility to down right friendly. Massachusetts has problems, but since I grew up here I know how to "navigate".  Connecticut and New Hampshire are out as far as travel, out and out racism.


But as far as I know, there has not been an effort to disenfranchise minorities in either Conn or N.H.  at least since the Voting Rights Act was passed.  If people are so stupid as to make tourists feel unwelcome, thats their loss, and taking your $$$ elsewhere is the appropriate response.  Welcome to Vermont, by the way, just be sure to make reservations at Cat $ D.C.'s B&B&L&D

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/25/05 at 10:24 pm

When everybody's the same color, they hate eachother for something else.  Take Northern Ireland, for example...
::)

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: danootaandme on 11/26/05 at 9:05 am


When everybody's the same color, they hate eachother for something else.  Take Northern Ireland, for example...
::)


That is the point Malcolm X made after his pilgrimmage.  Many tend to ignore, or cover-up that fact.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/26/05 at 2:43 pm


That is the point Malcolm X made after his pilgrimmage.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: Don Carlos on 11/26/05 at 4:45 pm


When it comest religious hatred, there's generally a political and economic motivation.  This is quite true in Ireland and Palestine.


Yes, yes, but did you ever notice that those who hate the most tend also to be the most religious?  Funnymentalist Christian, Moslums, Jews, Hindus etc.  Organized religion seems to perpetuate hate, that's why I gave it up for Lent several decades ago.  Keep your "Ol' Time Religion" and give me solitary spiritualism any day.  But Keep Section 5.

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/29/05 at 10:43 am

Hmm....

Lawsuit Alleges Discrimination Against Whites in Mississippi
ABC News
By: Jake Tapper
12/28/2005

MACON, Miss., Dec. 28, 2005 — In overwhelmingly black and Democratic Noxubee County, Miss., everybody knows local Democratic Party Chairman Ike Brown.

Officials at the U.S. Justice Department know Brown too; they're suing him.

Using the 1965 Voting Rights Act, the government has alleged that Brown and local elections officials discriminated against whites. It is the first time the Justice Department has ever claimed that whites suffered discrimination in voting because of race.

"When I read the letter, it was junk, you know, bogus," Brown told ABC News.

The Justice Department says Brown and local elections officials disenfranchised whites — challenging their voting status, rejecting their absentee ballots and telling voters to choose candidates according to race.

Brown says he has merely tried to keep white Republicans from voting in Democratic primaries. He says the lawuit is all political — an attempt to discredit him because the Democratic Party in eastern Mississippi has been doing so well at bringing new voters to the polls, which may mean someday soon that Mississippi, a red state, could turn blue.

"The Justice Department's become an arm of the RNC," Brown said.

The Justice Department would not comment, but county prosecutor Ricky Walker is a potential witness for the government. Walker was surprised when Brown recruited a black candidate who didn't even live in the county to run against him. Walker, after all, is a Democrat.

"Mr. Brown seems to favor black candidates," Walker said. "He's always encouraged blacks to vote strictly for the black candidates."

Unapologetic About Bias

Brown is unapologetic.

He says some local white Democrats aren't "true" Democrats.

"We support the black candidates because we're sure they're going to vote in the liberal interest," Brown said.


The case takes on added complexities given the state's turbulent history during and after the civil rights era, especially those struggles having to do with voting. Mississippi is where civil rights leader Medgar Evers was murdered, as were the three civil rights workers looking to register blacks to vote, as depicted in the film "Mississippi Burning."

The president of the Mississipi NAACP, Derrick Johnson, says there is still plenty of discrimination against black voters in the state, and he questions the Bush administration's priorities in bringing this suit.

"We've had several issues over the years of what appeared to be racial discrimination against black voters and the Justice Department has yet to come in and do a thorough investigation," Johnson said. "And for them to take on this case is highly unusual and very suspect."

But others in the civil rights community take a more circumspect attitude in the case against Brown.

"Voting is precious. It's a right that people sacrificed for for years and years," said Leslie Burl McLemore, director of the Fannie Lou Hamer Institute at Jackson State University. "There is a way to encourage participation, and it can be done without having to discriminate against another set of voters."

Racial Divide

Like so many things in Noxubee's Macon community, opinions about the case divide along racial lines. Residents opined at Geneva's Kitchen, a local restaurant, over soul food and sweet tea.

"I think Ike's a pretty good man," local resident Alonzo Phillips told ABC News.

"I guess he do target, you know, the Republicans, and they are white. Most of them," said Geneva, the restaurant's owner.

On Main Street, whites express a different sentiments: "I think Ike Brown is a racist," said a white man.

"I think we're getting a little dose of our ancestors' medicine, if you want to know the truth," said another.

Those ghosts from civil rights battles past have never left Noxubee County, and they continue to influence the way the case against Brown is viewed. But guilty or innocent, the Justice Department wants this case to be about Brown, not the state's historical disenfranchisement of black voters.

Link

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/29/05 at 11:05 am

"I think we're getting a little dose of our ancestors' medicine, if you want to know the truth," said another.
Not just ancestors who may have held slaves, but living relatives who may have imposed literacy tests, who may have dressed in hoods and encouraged African Americans to stay home on Election Day or else, who may have required car-less African American citizens to register at a county courthouse ninety miles from home...and the list goes on.
"Ancestor" implies deeds by those long dead.  Millions of racist whites who perpetuated injustice and violence against blacks in the voting arena during Jim Crow are still with us---they may be old and gray, but alive and well.
Do two wrongs make a right?  Of course not.  Does what goes around come around?  Absolutely. 

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: alyceclover on 12/29/05 at 11:10 am

Tornado's in Georgia this time of year? Thought they were a seasonal thing. Learn something new everyday.

And 'Section 5', never heard of it.

How can there be that many white racists in Vermont?

Subject: Re: Let section 5 die already

Written By: GWBush2004 on 12/29/05 at 1:24 pm


I don't understand what Section 5 means, exactly, so should not even be replying here.

Check for new replies or respond here...