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Subject: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: danootaandme on 12/10/05 at 6:05 pm

A bit of sixties idealism    :\'(

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 12/10/05 at 6:14 pm


A bit of sixties idealism

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Dagwood on 12/10/05 at 9:12 pm

Isn't this the same McCarthy that was accusing everyone of being Communists?  Or am I confusing him with someone else?

Either way, it is sad when someone dies.  At least he was able to live a full life.  R.I.P. Mr. McCarthy.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/10/05 at 9:50 pm

If we'd listened to Gene McCarthy, we wouldn't have had all these problems all these years.  Maybe we wouldn't be slouching toward the apocalypse at such a severe angle!
:\'(

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: danootaandme on 12/11/05 at 8:29 am


Isn't this the same McCarthy that was accusing everyone of being Communists?  Or am I confusing him with someone else?

Either way, it is sad when someone dies.  At least he was able to live a full life.  R.I.P. Mr. McCarthy.


Totally different McCarthy.  Joseph McCarthy was a thoroughly vile human being.  Eugene McCarthy was a polar
opposite.  The only thing they shared was a last name.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/11/05 at 7:01 pm

Joseph McCarthy drank himself to death in 1957, three years after Congressional censure.  He died in disgrace.

I saw Eugene McCarthy on C-Span this morning, recorded in 2001.  A ver witty, observant man with many interesting things to say.  He was about 85 then.
:\'(

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Dagwood on 12/11/05 at 10:22 pm


Totally different McCarthy.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Mushroom on 12/12/05 at 3:35 pm


Isn't this the same McCarthy that was accusing everyone of being Communists?

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Indy Gent on 12/12/05 at 3:39 pm

I thought he died a long time ago. Anyway, a very sad loss. :\'(

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/12/05 at 4:15 pm


That was Senator Joe McCarthy.  And actually he did not accuse everybody of being a Communist.  Joe only targeted those in the Government, most notably the State Department and Voice Of America radio network.  In fact, what I always found fascinating is that he is demonized, yet the declassification of the VENONA documents proved that a lot of those he suspected really were Soviet Agents.  In fact, at least 14 people who Sen. McCarthy identified as Communist Agents really were Communist Agents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VENONA_Project

It was the House Unamerican Activities Comission a decade before that thought the Communists had taken over Hollywood, and many other areas.  This is the committie that lead to the infamous "Black List" in Hollywood.  Different decade and different branch of the Legislature.  But for some reason, people keep trying to lump both of them under Sen. Joe McCarthy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Unamerican_Activities_Committee


Yes, HUAC and the Army - McCarthy hearings were seperate.  Both dispicable witch hunts, but seperate.  And by the way, Bobby Kennedy was on HUAC's staff. 

"Clean Gene" McCarthy was a great guy and I supported him, but in hind sight, he probably contributed to Nixon's victory with his opposition to Humphry, and thus prolonged the war in Vietnam.  Amazing.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Mushroom on 12/12/05 at 4:33 pm


Yes, HUAC and the Army - McCarthy hearings were seperate.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/13/05 at 4:28 pm


I can agree that the HUAC was a witch hunt.  They were grasping at straws, accusing almost anybody with Leftist leanings of being a Communist.  In fact, one of the leading outspoken critics of this was the then head of SAG, Ronald Reagan.

The one that Sen. McCarthy lead was hardly a witch hunt though.  Most of the people he identified were known through intercepts as being spies.  But because the source was so highly classified, it could not be revealed (much like MAGIC).  In fact, a lot of the origin of VENONA came from MAGIC intercepts.  The Japanese during WWII cracked the Soviet Intelligence Code.  This is what lead to the capture of Richard Sorge.  That gave our Intelligence agencies the start which lead to their own cracking of the codes.

If those who Joe had identified had been proven to be innocent, then I would agree with the witch hunt description.  But far more of them have been proven to have in fact been guilty after all.


The question is, guilty of what?  Of supporting one of our allies during the war?  During that visitation of the red scare, anyone with leftist leanings was considered a communist and unworthy, by that alone, of a gov't job.  One can advocated a (peaceful) socialist revolution and be neither a traitor nor unAmerican.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/13/05 at 9:48 pm


That was Senator Joe McCarthy.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Mushroom on 12/14/05 at 3:42 pm


There really is no redemption for McCarthy, even if you agree the government should have chased down and rooted out communists in its ranks.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/14/05 at 4:28 pm


Oh yes, like those saints, the Rosenbergs.  It was so strange that people were screaming to have their records cleared, until 10 years ago, when Venona went public.  Of course, since then even the KGB has released documents about them and other spies who were working for the US Government, and also the Kremlin.

And Don Carlos, spying is spying.  I do not care if the spy is for China, Israel, Iraq, USSR, or England.  It is illegal, and it is wrong.  And there is a good reason why they are not protected by the Geneva Convention.  But for the most part, we have a history of simply locking them up for many years.

Compare that to the Soviet Union, or China.  Their justice was normally a bullet in the back of the head, with a 5 minute trial (after they beat a confession out of the person). 

Oh, and here are a bunch more "innocent" people who worked for the US Government, and every one was identified in Venona Intercepts as providing classified information to the Soviet Union (and a lot of them did it even after the war):




Thank for the list.  Two comments.  First, a significant number of those listed DID NOT work for the Federal government or had no affiliation mentioned.  For example you mention a one-time pres of the CPUSA.

Second, I'm not condoning spying or any other kind of external intervention in the internal affairs of sovereign states.  I would also ask what the Soviet or Chinese treatment of alleged spies has to do with anything.  Are you saying that we, as a nation, should sink to the behavior of the lowest common denominator?  I though we were a becon of freedom and justice in a troiubled world - oh yeah, that was before Abu Graib.  Now, we are just another bully on the block.

  NOT IN MY NAME, END THE TORTURE

Or do the ends justify the means?

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Mushroom on 12/14/05 at 6:32 pm


Thank for the list.

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/14/05 at 10:04 pm

Guys, if you want to talk about Joe McCarthy and spying, maybe the topic deserves its own thread.  This is not the way Eugene McCarthy would like be remembered!

Subject: Re: Eugene McCarthy dies at 89

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/15/05 at 2:18 pm


Guys, if you want to talk about Joe McCarthy and spying, maybe the topic deserves its own thread.  This is not the way Eugene McCarthy would like be remembered!


You're so right.

"Clean Gene" was one of the greats.  A real guttsy guy who stood up for what he believed.  We need more like him.

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