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Subject: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/16/05 at 6:08 pm

There is one thing that constantly puzzles me in the debates in here.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/16/05 at 7:25 pm

I don't think you can dichotomise the whole of the nation into one of the two of these broad categories. It's more complicated than that.

I personally believe that the government should represent a balance between what the people want and what's best for them at the same time. At present (as always) the government is controlled by (and serves the interest of, the very wealthy). I see the present law enforcement as thuggish, but that's not how I think it ought to be. I see the present tax code, with it's myriad of exemptions and loopholes, as benefitting the very wealthy. I think the state ought to be the people working for the people, to serve them and protect them... not to just boss them around all the time, and give them the hassle and shakedown. The state should provide social services because that ensures a healthy society, but what happens now is the goverment does very little for society while at the same time keeping them on a short leash. Society is working for the government, when it should be the other way around.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/16/05 at 9:11 pm

The U.S. government is a go-fer for corporations, banks, and a few super-rich families.  If the facade government that is supposed to serve the run-of-the mill citizen is a crippled bureaucracy full of incompetent f*ck-ups, so much for the better.  The capitalists want the people to despise the government so they'll hand over more control to private interests accountable to no one.  That's why Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the executive branch has been so obscenely arrogant.  They're not working for us!

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/17/05 at 2:59 pm

I agree with both McDonald and Maxwell.  The dicotomy suggested is overly simple and the government is currently in the hands of corporate America and the super-rich dynasties.


There is one thing that constantly puzzles me in the debates in here.  And that is the strange dichotomy that people have when it comes to the US Government.

On one hand, you have people who are very paranoid, and want the Government totally out of their lives.  They view law enforcement as thugs, the Military as stupid robots, and politicians as a bunch of crooks.  They want the Government out of their lives, out of their jobs, out of their pocketbooks, and out of their bedrooms.




For most of us, this is a gross exaguration.  I object to police brutality and intrusions on my civil and Constitutional right.  I don't view the military as "stupid Robots" nor see all politicians as "crooks".  I certainly want the gov't out of my bed room, but I want it to enforce the labor laws that protect working people, and while I hate taxes, I am willing to pay them to support the services that We The People (that is all of us in the great unwashed mass) deem to be important.


And at the same time, they want the same Government to take care of them.  They want this Government they are so paranoid of to provide free health care, free retirement pensions, free housing, free food, free education, free roads, free abortions, safe neighborhoods, safe borders, and a lot of other things.



Again, not so.  THere is no such thing as "free" health care, pensions, housing, education, roads, or anything eles.  The question is, who pays for these things.  There are only 2 possibilities.  Either the direct user or consumer, as in some Latin American countries, where if you want protection (for exmp) you hire your own security etc.  Or we provide those things collectively.  So we pay for education and roads through taxes, that is collectively.  The rest, the consumer must arrange to pay for.  These are questions of public policy and therefore political.

Clearly, I favor an activist government controlled by the majority of the citizenry, and therefore a collective response to the needs we all share, like health care, social security for the elderly and disabled , education etc.  I don't favor a government that trounces are rights and intrudes itself into our personal lives, or allows special interest groups to do so.

So, using the classical Marx/Engles definition of the state: "The executive committee of the ruling class", I can easilly say that I oppose the state.  On the other hand, I support "government of, by, and for the people".

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tia on 12/17/05 at 3:28 pm

it's the most enormous thing humans have ever constructed, the US federal government. and, of course, it's actually a great concatenation of many things, some good, some bad. people want to talk about "the government" as a single entity -- and i do it too, it's a necessary shorthand -- but it's also a too-easy abstraction, almost like an anthropomorphization. and of course, the "government" that surveils us is completely different from the public sector that's supposed to be providing a safety net and aiding in creating a marginally livable society, so to say that it's hypocritical to rail against excessive use of government surveillance and law enforcement powers and at the same time call for a safety net, that's a little misleading -- they're part of the same organizatino only in the loosest sense of the word.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/17/05 at 8:49 pm


I agree with both McDonald and Maxwell.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: ADH13 on 12/17/05 at 9:15 pm



Well, I can say for sure that whatever type of government we have, there will be praisers and there will be bashers.  No getting around that.

I agree with Mushroom's statement, and I've said before that people's attitudes toward the government remind me of a teenager who wants their parents out of their business but still wants to be supported, wants money, a place to live, etc.

As far as civil rights go, like I've said before...to give people rights will ALWAYS be at the expense of someone else's rights.  For example:  the right to smoke vs the right to breathe clean air... the employee's right to higher minimum wage vs the employer's right to control its business... the right to stage protests on the street vs the right to drive to work on that street

There's just no way that everyone can win.

The government doesn't support me and never has.  But if they want to search my home for whatever reason (assuming they have a reason) feel free... I've got nothing to hide.  If it will make my community feel safer to know that I'm not building a bomb in my garage, by all means...come have a look.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/17/05 at 9:49 pm





I agree with Mushroom's statement, and I've said before that people's attitudes toward the government remind me of a teenager who wants their parents out of their business but still wants to be supported, wants money, a place to live, etc.



This is a wretched statement.  It is Rush Limbaugh-style propaganda.  The government's corporate paymasters want us to blame ourselves for the misallocation of public resources the corporate paymasters cause in the first place.
The Republican party's answer to every corporate corporate wish is, "Yazza yazza on the double!," and their answer to every human need is "f*ck you!"
I'm sick of big business, big banks, and private interests at the public expense pushing everybody else around...and I'm sicker than sick of corporatist toadies who heap scorn on the poor and the vulnerable.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: ADH13 on 12/17/05 at 11:49 pm


This is a wretched statement.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/18/05 at 2:47 am


Sure, the government probably helps many corporations... but at the same time, the government has the power to monitor them through various inspections, audits, minimum wage requirements, safety rules, labor laws, etc.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tia on 12/18/05 at 11:18 am


I agree with Mushroom's statement, and I've said before that people's attitudes toward the government remind me of a teenager who wants their parents out of their business but still wants to be supported, wants money, a place to live, etc.


i don't advocate having a reasonable safety net because *i* need one. i have a job, i do all right. i just don't much like the idea of living in a country that basically leaves its disadvantaged citizens to die, and i don't like thinking that if something were to happen to me -- if i were to develop a mental illness, say, or otherwise be rendered unable to work -- i'd basically be SOL because i live in a country where selfish conservatives run everything.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 12/18/05 at 1:01 pm


I agree with both McDonald and Maxwell.  The dicotomy suggested is overly simple and the government is currently in the hands of corporate America and the super-rich dynasties.

For most of us, this is a gross exaguration.  I object to police brutality and intrusions on my civil and Constitutional right.  I don't view the military as "stupid Robots" nor see all politicians as "crooks".  I certainly want the gov't out of my bed room, but I want it to enforce the labor laws that protect working people, and while I hate taxes, I am willing to pay them to support the services that We The People (that is all of us in the great unwashed mass) deem to be important.

Again, not so.  THere is no such thing as "free" health care, pensions, housing, education, roads, or anything eles.  The question is, who pays for these things.  There are only 2 possibilities.  Either the direct user or consumer, as in some Latin American countries, where if you want protection (for exmp) you hire your own security etc.  Or we provide those things collectively.  So we pay for education and roads through taxes, that is collectively.  The rest, the consumer must arrange to pay for.  These are questions of public policy and therefore political.

Clearly, I favor an activist government controlled by the majority of the citizenry, and therefore a collective response to the needs we all share, like health care, social security for the elderly and disabled , education etc.  I don't favor a government that trounces are rights and intrudes itself into our personal lives, or allows special interest groups to do so.

So, using the classical Marx/Engles definition of the state: "The executive committee of the ruling class", I can easilly say that I oppose the state.  On the other hand, I support "government of, by, and for the people".



Yeah, what he said.



Cat

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/18/05 at 3:12 pm

Thanks MacDonald, thank Cat.

There are lots of things one could add to what I already said, but lets look back a bit, to like the early 19th Century, just after Samual Slater opended his first textile mill, and focus on New England.  Certainly there were a few rich families around, and they clerarly had lots of power, but the overwhelming majority were either small farmers, independent artisans, or both (like the shoe maker/farmers of Lynn Mass.  - see Alan Daweley's Class and Community).  As things changed, and more and more people lost their economic independance, several working class intellectuals (there were many) advanced some very interesting ideas.  One was an iron founder named Thomas Skidmore.  He proposed a 100% inheritance tax, a totally free education system, and a "grant of establishment" for each child on coming of age, ie start-up capital.  His idea was to level the playing field so that ever citizen would start from the same place in the game of life.  Obviously, such a sheme could never work in the modern world, but the concept could certainly be modified.

In his most famous book, The Protestant Ethic and thje Spirit of Capitalism Max Weber made some interesting observations about the various "corporations" that made up the Catholic Church before the Reformation, especially the fact that they never die, and therefore continue to accumulate wealth (during the late colonial period in Latin America, church establishments were the wealthiest institutions and the biggest bankers in America).  Our secular corporations, legally immortal individuals, have replaced the church, with its many manifestations, and have come to dominate our society. 

So, if we accept Skidmore's goal and Weber's analysis and apply them to modern America we might decide to alter the laws governing corporations.  Remove their status as "imortal" people and make them die after a number of years, and we could impose that 100% inheritance tax as well. 

I guess what I'm saying is that, while there are obvious differences in peoples' abilities (as Madison recognized in The Federalist "# 10", there are ways, or could be ways, to both encourage the full development of each person's potential and still utilize both the forces of the market and individual greed (to you conservatives, greed is good, right?) to yeild a society based on both individual initiative and social responsibility, but not when we sanction the perpetuation of inequality through our laws.  And now, a real example of what we should not be doing.

Explore the business history of our current president.  He formed several oil companies with a talent for drilling dry holes.  None of his companies ever made any money, yet  his family connections got him all kinds of sweet deals, not to mention political office.  Had he started at ground zero, he never would have been addmited to Yale, and would be something like a ski or surfing bum right now, or a name on that wall in WEashington.  But no.  Because of his connections and some skillfull manipulation, we hired this failed businessman to be our CEO.  Please explain.

Excuse the long ramblings.  I guess the first question one should ask is not about "government" per sae, but about what kind of society we want to live in.  The second question is how to get there.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: IanWinn on 12/18/05 at 5:58 pm

Jumping right in with both feet, here I go:

The US government is far too powerful in it's own right.  It has, since before the War of Federal Aggression, usurped it's Constitutional boundaries.  Today, with only one exception that I see (Ron Paul of Texas, and I pray to God Almighty that I'm not wrong), the politicians and judges are filled with corruption that overflows their collective cups.

The Federal Government needs to be scaled back to it's original Constitutional boundaries (let's do away with all the other amendments after the 10th).  The purpose of the Federal government is to deal with other nations, protect the borders, set national measurement standards (to let the rest of the world know how we deal in things), pave the roads, and let UPS and FedEx and DHL deliver the mail.  It does NOT need to verify that my seeds are OK for my garden, or that my pillows have been inspected, or that my water has been properly floridated (not that it needs any more industrial waste in it, thank you very much).  If the states want to establish Social Security, universal health care, etc, and the people of those states want to establish such things, then such is their right.  But the Federal government has no such right or duty or privilige.

I don't want the Federal government to take care of me except as stated above (borders, roads, measurement standards, mail).  Unfortunately, it is the prediliction of everyone who gets into government to gather power unto himself/herself, as as Lord Acton said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

When corruption asserts itself, as the Founders knew that it would, there are two avenues of recourse:  The First Amendment, which allows the shedding of light upon the corruption so that it may be removed gently (ie, voted out); and the Second Amendment, in case the First Amendment recourse fails.  The First recourse if failing, and the time for the Second recourse comes closer.  I hope that it never happens, but when I look at what is happening, I realize that it is not a matter of IF, but WHEN.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 12/18/05 at 6:50 pm



The Federal Government needs to be scaled back to it's original Constitutional boundaries (let's do away with all the other amendments after the 10th). 



I disagree with you there. You have the 13th Admendement-abolishment of slavery, The 14th-Citizenship rights not to be abridged The 15th-granting voting rights to black males, the 19th-granting voting rights to women, and the 26th, lowering the voting age to 18.




Cat

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: ADH13 on 12/18/05 at 8:54 pm


The "government"

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/18/05 at 10:29 pm


...as well as many many civilians living on the government's dime... and even more literally.


However, I have to object, at least in part, to your rant about the corporations writing their own tickets.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: ADH13 on 12/18/05 at 10:42 pm


On the books these protective laws may be, but some companies are so big they actually do have an unofficial carte blanche. Wal-Mart keeps most of its staff below 40 hours/wk. to exempt them from having to offer overtime, full-time benefits, paid vacations, etc... Also, saftey inspections can be bought off easiily. Also, many statees are what is known as "right-to-work" states (a deceptive term) meaning that emplyment CAN be terminated at will without notice, legally.


I understand what you're saying about Wal-Mart but it's really a vicious circle... if Wal-Mart had to pay overtime, full-time benefits, paid vacations, etc... then they would raise their prices to compensate for it.. and then people would be complaining that they can't afford the basic necessities anymore...  is that really any better?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 12/18/05 at 10:58 pm


The "government"

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/19/05 at 12:43 am


I understand what you're saying about Wal-Mart but it's really a vicious circle... if Wal-Mart had to pay overtime, full-time benefits, paid vacations, etc... then they would raise their prices to compensate for it.. and then people would be complaining that they can't afford the basic necessities anymore...

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: ADH13 on 12/19/05 at 12:53 am


Oh Wuck fal-Mart!

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/19/05 at 1:15 am


Ok you said corporations get away with murder...literally.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/19/05 at 10:18 am

If I could just interject one thing quickly here...

Remember I am talking about "The Government", not "The Administration".  The Republicans may leave office in 2008 and not return to power for 25 years, and "The Government" will continue on.  Just as it does today, just as it did 20 years ago (or 8 years ago when Clinton was in office).  In reality, The Administration really has very little effect on Government.

And trying to blame all the ills of the world on any one group is rather childish to me.  Just as trying to claim the credit whenever anything works out right is equally childish.

And I know my example was simplified.  I was only trying to make a point.  In reality, I myself am somewhere in the middle.

So for those that missed the point, please try to keep comments to how Government relates to things, not the current, or any other administration. 

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/19/05 at 12:23 pm


I understand what you're saying about Wal-Mart but it's really a vicious circle... if Wal-Mart had to pay overtime, full-time benefits, paid vacations, etc... then they would raise their prices to compensate for it.. and then people would be complaining that they can't afford the basic necessities anymore...

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/19/05 at 2:26 pm


Besides, thanks to Walmart's determination to keep their employees below the poverty line, we as American taxpayers are already paying the price in welfare checks, medicaid, WIC, and various other social support services.


Below the poverty line?  Oh, come on now!  I can just as equally state that the Government is working to keep US Servicemembers below the poverty line.  And unlike people in the military, people at WalMart can walk away any time they want and get another job.

Remember, "poverty line" is a local event, not a national one.  What is far below the poverty line in LA is a pretty decent living in Alabama.  If you have a complaint to the wage anyplace pays, do what I suggested in an earlier post.  Complain to your local lawmakers, and have them set a local minimum wage.

Oh, and if you were made CEO of WalMart tomorrow, what would you do?  Would you raise everybody to a minimum of $10+ an hour?  Would you raise the wage of those who live in the LA area to $20 an hour?  Do you think the business would be around for long if you did that?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/19/05 at 10:29 pm


Below the poverty line?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/20/05 at 12:04 am


Yeah, WalMart's not wrong, it's the poverty line that's unrealistic... Oh, and it's OK to screw people as long as it's good for business. Seems to me that Wal-Mart does just fine in Europe where the governments force them to pay decent wages and good benefits.

My nephew saw an American flag a few hours ago, and said "that stands for justice." I couldn't bring myself to say what I was thinking (something along the lines of "bullshhh"). Where's the justice in selling out your brother or sister in the name of "good" business?

Out of the mouths of babes, as they say.  And it's hard to say anything after that.  Whatever the flag purportedly stands for, you can be sure that the people who wave it the most practice just the opposite.  Same with the Bible, Jesus, and Mohammed.

it's OK to screw people as long as it's good for business.
What, that's the de facto national motto!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-089.gif

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/20/05 at 10:15 am


Yeah, WalMart's not wrong, it's the poverty line that's unrealistic... Oh, and it's OK to screw people as long as it's good for business. Seems to me that Wal-Mart does just fine in Europe where the governments force them to pay decent wages and good benefits.


OK, so you still do not have a solution, just a complaint.  How about something that can be done to solve your problem?

Oh, and I have a friend that started working at WalMart last month.  He is 25, and never had a real job in his life.  He started at $7 an hour (which is pretty good in Alabama.

Well, last week he got a promotion.  He is assistant manager of the electronics department.  Less then 2 months on the job, and he is now making $9 an hour.  Plus he moved from being "temporary seasonal help" to "permanent employee".  Hardly a "starvation wage", and hardly "underpaid oppressed employee".  Of course, there are others there who have worked there longer that are ticked off at him.  But then again, they did nothing special to get promoted, while he worked hard to know where everything was in his department, and to give suggestions to improve things.  Of course, I have my own issue with people who work for "Minimum Wage".  I guess a lot of them just have no initiative to do better, so they simply do what is required and nothing more.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/20/05 at 11:37 am


OK, so you still do not have a solution, just a complaint.  How about something that can be done to solve your problem?


And your solution is.... do nothing? Leave "well enough" alone? Typical. Your conservative "solution" is denying that there's a problem.

And I guess I should take your (rather convenient) isolated example of somebody doing passably well (at best) as a Wal-Mart employee as something indicative of the entire company... when I know for a fact that if indeed this story you're telling me is true, he may be of the lucky few.

How's this for an isolated incident. Jonqui

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 12/20/05 at 1:55 pm


Yeah, WalMart's not wrong, it's the poverty line that's unrealistic... Oh, and it's OK to screw people as long as it's good for business. Seems to me that Wal-Mart does just fine in Europe where the governments force them to pay decent wages and good benefits.

My nephew saw an American flag a few hours ago, and said "that stands for justice." I couldn't bring myself to say what I was thinking (something along the lines of "bullshhh"). Where's the justice in selling out your brother or sister in the name of "good" business?
My sister worked for Wal-Mart and told me honestly how they treat their employees...like crap! And I've heard the same from other Wal-Mart employees!

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 12/20/05 at 1:58 pm


And your solution is.... do nothing? Leave "well enough" alone? Typical. Your conservative "solution" is denying that there's a problem.

And I guess I should take your (rather convenient) isolated example of somebody doing passably well (at best) as a Wal-Mart employee as something indicative of the entire company... when I know for a fact that if indeed this story you're telling me is true, he may be of the lucky few.

How's this for an isolated incident. Jonqui

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: ADH13 on 12/20/05 at 2:25 pm



Is anyone familiar with Wal-Mart's hiring practices??  Do they hire people that other places wouldn't hire? 

I don't see minimum wage as a problem for high school students who have zero experience, live at home and just want spending money.  It's just a stepping stone, a way to gain some work experience, and get some spending money at the same time.  I would think Wal-Mart would be a good place for these people to start out... Although, once they gain experience, I don't see why they would stay there if it's that bad... unless for some reason they have no choice.

I would think that someone who has "experience" required to work at Wal-Mart would also have the "experience" required to work at Nordstrom.  It's really the same work...just a different environment.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/20/05 at 3:48 pm



Is anyone familiar with Wal-Mart's hiring practices??

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 12/20/05 at 3:52 pm

our government, seriously these days, is a three-ring circus, owned and run by the wealthy, for the wealthy!
Or even better these days..the inmates running the asylum!

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/20/05 at 9:15 pm



Is anyone familiar with Wal-Mart's hiring practices??

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: philbo on 12/21/05 at 7:12 pm

How do I view the US government?  The best way: from a few thousand miles away ;)

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/21/05 at 7:14 pm

Umm, newsflash, but a lot of people actually do find themselves in a situation where they have very little experience, skill, or education and that they have to support themselves and their families on several minimum wage jobs. In Britain there is a graduated minimum wage system, where the wage is different depending on your age group. Teenagers get one rate, adults another. What's the problem with that?

Create poor schools and then blame people for being stupid.
Create sheeshe jobs and then blame people for being poor.
Create bad economic situations and then blame people for resorting to drugs/crime.
Create jails to put all these people once they react to thier social constraints, and then end up footing the bill anyway.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/21/05 at 8:23 pm


How do I view the US government?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/22/05 at 10:16 am


Umm, newsflash, but a lot of people actually do find themselves in a situation where they have very little experience, skill, or education and that they have to support themselves and their families on several minimum wage jobs.


OK, and who's fault is it that you have adults with families who have no useable job skills?  Is it the fault of the Government?  Or "Big Business"?

How about it being at least partially the fault of the people in that situation in the first place?

There are only a few things needed to "make it" in the job force in this country:  skills, initiative, drive, and a little luck.  If you have 2 of those, you can at least get by.  If you only have 1, odds are you will fail and spend your entire life at minimum wage jobs.

By the time I graduated high school, I was working, and already had 1 promotion.  By the time I got married, I was 20.  I was in a new career, and had several promotions.  By the time I had my first son, I was 22, had another even larger promotion, and owned my own house (well, the bank owned more of it then I did).  Bit I had most of the things I listed earlier.  I had a drive to get ahead.  I was promoted to Corporal over a year ahead of those with my time in service.  And believe me, 2

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/23/05 at 12:13 am

It's too easy to take for granted that everyone stuck with one or more minimum wage job is either lazy or stupid. There are too many people and too few jobs for that to be the universal truth. And even if there are slightly better jobs, like security guard (wow! this job's gonna end poverty as we know it!), they might pay between 8 and 12 bucks the hour, but is that even really enough to support a family of four if you take into account things like health care costs, clothes for four people, *nutritious* food, rent, power/heat/AC, phone, water, etc.. No. So what happens? The other parent goes to work (if they're around) and then there's day care costs, the worries of whether or not the kids are being taken care of and not abused, the worry of not being able to spend any time with them. Without a social support net, the house of cards will fall. The family falls apart and the kids fall through the cracks to carry on the cycle of poverty. It's not the kids' fault. And that's the kind of family life many people who have recently come of age are products of. We didn't have the social support or education that could have given their parents a better shot, and we don't currently have the education to make up for where they're failing.

People need to know that they are insured against disaster. They need to feel safe in their jobs, safe in their schools, safe in their country. Psychology teaches us that when people have a social support system, their mental health benefits. Usually this is in the context of family and friends, but that is what a country is supposed to be; an extended family of citizens.

I'm not proud of a country whose citizens don't care about one another. What's there to be proud about, when you're lacking that most basic of moral fabric?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/23/05 at 1:18 am


OK, and who's fault is it that you have adults with families who have no useable job skills?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/23/05 at 11:15 am


Big business requires big government to survive.
Eight bucks an hour doesn't buy much anymore in most of the country.
This is a very Ronald Reagan argument you've got.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/23/05 at 1:05 pm


That is a starting wage.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/23/05 at 2:36 pm


Well, I can't help it, but there you go again!

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 12/23/05 at 3:22 pm

There's nothing particularly unreal about class struggle. That's reality at its core. Take yourself, for instance. I gather that you work in construction, that makes you (I presume, unless you have a rich uncle we don't know about) a member of the working class. You want to keep your jo because without it you would not survive... How do you keep it? You would tell me you keep it because you work hard, but that doesn't make you any different from the average illegal Mexican immigrant (a member of the suservient lower class) who also works hard. What makes him different from you is that he will probably work even harder, but expect and be satisfied with less in return. His only disadvntage is that he is classified as "illegal labour." And you, the legal worker, will do everything in your power to make sure that he stays "illegal," because the second he becomes "legal," your arse is out the door, and he's getting your job. That, my friend, is class struggle. Your class works to keep his class down so that, at the very least, you can retain your class status. At the same time, you work to go as far up the class ladder as you can, while members of the classes above yours are working to keep you down so that they can retain their own class status.

Don't tell me this is all just one big fantasy. It's the truth and if you're unwilling to accept it, then you are certainly not living in the real world.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/23/05 at 7:29 pm

I was saying the "free market" is the fantasy and the "class warfare" is the reality.  Mr. Mushroom charges me with utopian thinking.  He presumes I imagine a world where "everybody has two cars and more money than they know how to spend."  That is actually the bill of goods the capitalist idealogues still trying to sell.  If only we can export "liberal democracy" (doublespeak for corporate oligarchy) to every government, then the magic of the marketplace will provide every Chinese peasant with amenities of the American suburbs.  The simple fact of the matter is the planet does not have the resources to provide seven billion human beings with the same petroleum-based material gains Americans and Europeans have enjoyed since the start of the 20th century.  It is fairly certain that the petroleum-based lifestyle will become to costly even for those who are fortunate enough to access it, including Mushroom, McDonald, and me.

Dick Cheney says the American way of life is not negotiable.  By "American way of life" he means the suburbs, the exurbs, the automobile-driven society.  Mother Nature doesn't negotiate either.  The biggest reason I say it is more imperitive than ever to wrest control of the planet's resources from the Dick Cheneys of the world is there will be many more peasants and proles in the coming century with fewer resources to go around.  Like the empires of old, the giant corporations will continue to confiscate ever more of these shrinking resources for a shrinking Western Bourgoisie.  It is happening already.  These resources include  petroleum, farmland, water, and human labor.

The Coca-Cola company seeks to dominate the Third World's water supply for the benefit of agribusiness.  Forward thinking Coke knows water will become new oil in decades to come.  The corporations have no problem with driving the Third World into mass famine and die-off in the next fifty years as they corral whatever arable lands remain. The result of having no Bengaladeshis to sell Coca-Cola to because they've all starved to death doesn't phase the corporate mind.  The chairman of the board will tell you to this day Coca-Cola (or Archer Daniels Midland or Nestle) seeks to bring prosperity to peasants.  He's may be psychotic enough to believe it himself.

The bad news is they're coming for your kin next.  This gets back to Malthus, and back to Mushroom's erroneous supposition that I'm a suburban utopian.  In fifty years if the world's billionaires can only sell gasoline and bottled water to the 25 million Americans who can still afford them, they will do so.  They cannot back out of the free market fantasy even as the results of the rich burning up the planet's resources brings the famine right into their own backyards.

I recommend the following book: Collapse: How Human Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared Diamond.  I like the story of Easter Island best of all, because this time around the entire planet is facing the fate of Easter Island in the eighteenth century.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/042.html
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/books/?050103crbo_books

I apologise for being so darn long-winded here.  I do sympathize with Mr. Mushroom's assertions of the "real world."  He and I are going to get up tomorrow morning and do what we think is best for us and our loved ones.  That does mean facing the American economy on terms neither of us set and trying to make a buck the best way we know how.  We part ways on the big picture.  Mushroom seems to believe that he and Bill Gates share some kind of peerage because they're both looking at for number one.  He would like to identify with Bill Gates more than he would the welfare recipients across town.  I say the rules are different when you count your wealth in millions or billions than in hundreds or thousands of dollars.  Bill O'Reilly says he's "working class" because he gets up and goes to work every day.  Yet he nets an eight figure annual income and a working class schmoe like me isn't even allowed in the restaurants he patronizes unless we're in the kitchen!

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 12/25/05 at 9:22 pm


Umm, newsflash, but a lot of people actually do find themselves in a situation where they have very little experience, skill, or education and that they have to support themselves and their families on several minimum wage jobs. In Britain there is a graduated minimum wage system, where the wage is different depending on your age group. Teenagers get one rate, adults another. What's the problem with that?

Create poor schools and then blame people for being stupid.
Create sheeshe jobs and then blame people for being poor.
Create bad economic situations and then blame people for resorting to drugs/crime.
Create jails to put all these people once they react to thier social constraints, and then end up footing the bill anyway.
Which are all things which our governments here in America are GREAT at, be it local, state, or Federal!

I'm not downing America, just the government 'lunatics' running the show here.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/25/05 at 11:03 pm


Which are all things which our governments here in America are GREAT at, be it local, state, or Federal!

I'm not downing America, just the government 'lunatics' running the show here.


I'm telling ya, America is like the teenage genius who dies of a drug overdose.  Everyone saying, "all that potential, such a shame!"
::)

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tony20fan4ever on 12/27/05 at 5:32 am


I'm telling ya, America is like the teenage genius who dies of a drug overdose.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/27/05 at 5:01 pm


Yeah, especially when the head of the EPA was governor here in NJ...and did not really do a dam thing to clean up toxic waste sites here(Like Price's Pit in Pleasantville and Alycion Lake in Pitman)until the locals raised enough of a legal stink!

Christy Todd Whitman should know better.  If the government cleans up one Superfund toxic dump, the citizens will expect the government to clean 'em all up, and we all know we can't afford that!  I mean, she could have suggested the corporations who made the messes help pay to clean them up, but then the RNC would  burn her at the stake for heresy!  She was already on the suspects list, being a woman and being from the Northeast and all...
:o

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: annonymouse on 01/02/06 at 8:30 pm

im not o much as paranoid about the government, but i do picture the whole government as a bunch of selfish liars.  an example of there selfishness- the fact that bush played golf while people were drowning in the aftermath of hurricane katrina. example of liars- the fact that they denied the idea of area 51 until after many protests they finnaly said "ok there is an area 51 but we can't tell you anything about it.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/02/06 at 11:59 pm


im not o much as paranoid about the government, but i do picture the whole government as a bunch of selfish liars.  an example of there selfishness- the fact that bush played golf while people were drowning in the aftermath of hurricane katrina. example of liars- the fact that they denied the idea of area 51 until after many protests they finnaly said "ok there is an area 51 but we can't tell you anything about it.

Yes, but a great deal of the American public are themselves selfish liars.  Most of the things in life Americans are taught to value most have been saturated in selfishness and lying:  career, making money, making money, making money, making, money, sex,sex sex, marriage, child-rearing, making money, career, sex, going to church, feeling superior to others because you go to church going to college, feeling superior to others because you went to college, career, making money, marriage, buying big cars, buying big dogs, buying big houses, sex, making money, career, spending money at mall jewelery shops, divorce, career, sex, making money, family time, quality time, me time, and closure (not to mention career, making money, and sex).
So...when we see our politicians as selfish liars, we feel relieved nobody will be setting an example we'll feel guilty for not following.  Of course, we love politicians who preach about values, morals, and doing the right thing.  These homilies are not for us of course, they're for people who are poorer and weaker than us.  This is the reason why Jimmy Carter went down in flames after four years, and Bill Clinton remained popular for eight years in spite of the OTHER selfish liars trying to destroy him.
:D

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Donnie Darko on 01/03/06 at 2:00 am


Yes, but a great deal of the American public are themselves selfish liars.  Most of the things in life Americans are taught to value most have been saturated in selfishness and lying:  career, making money, making money, making money, making, money, sex,sex sex, marriage, child-rearing, making money, career, sex, going to church, feeling superior to others because you go to church going to college, feeling superior to others because you went to college, career, making money, marriage, buying big cars, buying big dogs, buying big houses, sex, making money, career, spending money at mall jewelery shops, divorce, career, sex, making money, family time, quality time, me time, and closure (not to mention career, making money, and sex).
So...when we see our politicians as selfish liars, we feel relieved nobody will be setting an example we'll feel guilty for not following.  Of course, we love politicians who preach about values, morals, and doing the right thing.  These homilies are not for us of course, they're for people who are poorer and weaker than us.  This is the reason why Jimmy Carter went down in flames after four years, and Bill Clinton remained popular for eight years in spite of the OTHER selfish liars trying to destroy him.
:D



Everybody's selfish, we wouldn't do things if they didn't serve our self interest some how. 

Of course, some forms of selfishness are much more noble than others. 

Honesty is something many people, but almost no politicians have.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: deadrockstar on 01/03/06 at 2:40 am

I once heard that if you were to divide all of the money in America up equally, each citizen would have an average annual income of 50 something thousand a year(can't recall the exact figure). I'm not advocating communism. I'm pointing this out to demonstrate how the oft-given excuse by apologists for the Pension-raiders that its just not possible for people to all live equally(economically) is malarky. It is "impossible" not due to a lack of resources(be they financially or natural), but due to the shortcomings that tend to naturally occur within any human-designed system. That however does not justify allowing the opposite extreme(i.e. social Darwinism).

Communism is a noble idea, but does not work because of human nature. Capitalism, however, is just a vile ideology. The ultimate end of Communism is that everyone equally shares everything. The ultimate end of Capitalism is that one person has everything. Monopoly, anyone? Just because communism is unworkable in it's most pure form, we are expected to swallow the pill that that therefore invalidates all forms of socialism. Its kind of like throwing the baby out with the bath water, and its an interesting little trick Capitalists use to pull the wool over the eyes of the "working man". One end of the economic spectrum, communism, tends to produce "Stalinist"(basically fascist) governments like that of North Korea. The other end of the spectrum, capitalism(and I mean true capitalism, of the laissez faire kind), also produces fascist governments.

What we think of as the American Dream seems to have become so distorted. The American Dream is not to make as much money as you can stuff into your greedy little coffers. The American Dream is a car in every garage, food on every table, a roof over every head, etc. Only over the last 25 years with "Reaganomics" have we seen this shift among certain people as to what they see as the American Dream. This is also a big facade into fooling the common man into thinking that its the big, bad, commie liberals from the coast who want to take away their pensions and slash their income. Meanwhile, with this clever little smoke-and-mirrors act in place, the fascists are free to pillage the American Dream as they desire.

Think about how the 1950s are often seen as the "good ol' days". Infrastructure was better intact, education was not in the crisis it is in, the middle class was vibrant; and you know what? They had a sky-high income tax rate in that decade. Hmm, and oddly enough, the massive decay we have seen in infrastructure, education, and the viability of the American middle class all came along at the same time as Reaganomics. Quite the coincidink. Don't you think?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: IanWinn on 01/03/06 at 10:44 am

"Communism is a noble idea, but does not work because of human nature. Capitalism, however, is just a vile ideology. The ultimate end of Communism is that everyone equally shares everything. The ultimate end of Capitalism is that one person has everything. Monopoly, anyone? Just because communism is unworkable in it's most pure form, we are expected to swallow the pill that that therefore invalidates all forms of socialism."

Sorry, deadrockstar, but Communism is far from noble.  The object of Communism is NOT to share with your neighbor; it is to make your neighbor share with you, and if you remember your history, you will know that the grand-high muckety-mucks in the biggest Communist nation, the USSR, lived very high on the hog while the vast majority of the people lived in squalor (many of them in frozen squalor in Siberia).

Does capitalism lead to squalor amongst the people?  Monopolistic/plutocratic capitalism does, yes, which is what we have in this country for the most part.  True free market capitalism, which is what Adam Smith preached, is what allows the best in the marketplace to rise to the top.  Monopolistic capitalism may allow the best to be discovered, but if it cannot be bought out and co-opted, then the monopolists will weild their influence with the government and the press to have it denegrated, and then made illegal.

Communism and socialism are no different in their outcome than monopolistic capitalism; the only difference, in fact, is in who are the owners of the means of production.  Communism/socialism has the state as the owner, with the Party leadership keeping the bulk of the wealth; monopolistic capitalism has a small group of industrialists as the owners, again keeping the bulk of the wealth.

With true free market capitalism, the bulk of the wealth remains in the hands of the people, where people are rewarded for their hard work and their inventiveness.  Those who are lazy don't get as much reward.  Those employers who treat their employees abusively likewise get little reward, as there are many employers who will treat their employees as human beings, knowing that they get better work out of them that way.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/03/06 at 1:53 pm


"Communism is a noble idea, but does not work because of human nature. Capitalism, however, is just a vile ideology. The ultimate end of Communism is that everyone equally shares everything. The ultimate end of Capitalism is that one person has everything. Monopoly, anyone? Just because communism is unworkable in it's most pure form, we are expected to swallow the pill that that therefore invalidates all forms of socialism."

Sorry, deadrockstar, but Communism is far from noble.  The object of Communism is NOT to share with your neighbor; it is to make your neighbor share with you, and if you remember your history, you will know that the grand-high muckety-mucks in the biggest Communist nation, the USSR, lived very high on the hog while the vast majority of the people lived in squalor (many of them in frozen squalor in Siberia).

Does capitalism lead to squalor amongst the people?  Monopolistic/plutocratic capitalism does, yes, which is what we have in this country for the most part.  True free market capitalism, which is what Adam Smith preached, is what allows the best in the marketplace to rise to the top.  Monopolistic capitalism may allow the best to be discovered, but if it cannot be bought out and co-opted, then the monopolists will weild their influence with the government and the press to have it denegrated, and then made illegal.

Communism and socialism are no different in their outcome than monopolistic capitalism; the only difference, in fact, is in who are the owners of the means of production.  Communism/socialism has the state as the owner, with the Party leadership keeping the bulk of the wealth; monopolistic capitalism has a small group of industrialists as the owners, again keeping the bulk of the wealth.

With true free market capitalism, the bulk of the wealth remains in the hands of the people, where people are rewarded for their hard work and their inventiveness.  Those who are lazy don't get as much reward.  Those employers who treat their employees abusively likewise get little reward, as there are many employers who will treat their employees as human beings, knowing that they get better work out of them that way.

We hear lots of anti-European propaganda from those who form our economic policies in America.  Most of it is nonsense.  Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Holland, and Germany have vibrant market economies tempered by a secure safety net for all citizens.  Right-wing economists point to high unemployment rates and low rates of economic "growth" in western European countries and say, "Aha! Government meddling in the market doesn't work!"  They site statistics favorable to America's economic policies over the past 25 years.  Their arguments ring hollow.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating.  America has tens of millions of people living in grinding poverty day in and day out, and tens of millions more living on the brink of grinding poverty and in constant fear of it.  Americans are in astronomical debt from credit cards, mortgage refinancing, and student loans.  Escape from the worlds inhabited by our political and celebrity elites who paint the gaudy picture of American prosperity on your television set and drive to the once prosperous interior cities and farmlands.  You find there battle-scarred landscapes and towns rotted away.  These are the casualties of the big lie of American prosperity.  A few get extravegantly wealthy at the expense of the many, and use deceptive laws of averages to claim life is coming up roses for all.
Security is preferable to wild-eyed growth the Europeans learned after losing their empires and watching their infrastructures smashed by two world wars.  America I hope learns this before it's too late.
Donald Rumsfeld spoke of new Europe.  Countries such as Ireland and Slavakia have risen from bakwardness and poverty to thriving free-market economies with glorious service sector professions and low taxes.  But we must not forget, all this prosperity, these free markets and low taxes, are underwritten from Brussels by the administration of the European Union and is made possible by taxes paid by "old Europe" countries--France, Germany, the lowlands, and Scandinavia into the EU in the first place!  No such thing as a free lunch.
::)

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: annonymouse on 01/03/06 at 5:28 pm

we all may be selfish liars but you cant be that way when your running a country

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Donnie Darko on 01/03/06 at 9:19 pm


we all may be selfish liars but you cant be that way when your running a country



Good point.  The President is (or should be) a different person when in office.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: McDonald on 01/03/06 at 10:29 pm

I would agree that both Communism and Socialism are both noble ideas. Their goal is to create a classless society of equals, with no regards to race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc... What's so ignoble about that? Capitalism is intrinsically geared towards a caste system, with the people at the top controlling mass amounts of wealth and property, while most everyone else lives poorly. The corporate bosses haven't earned the wealth that's at their disposal, they stole it. The world's resources belong to everyone, and those resources are the foundation of profits.

For all intensive purposes, as Maxwell points out, some of the most successful countries are socialist. Sweden being a great example of this. Germany is alright in this respect, but still far behind the Scandinavian countries. There is a large gap between the German poor and the German rich. Not anywhere near as large as in the US, but there is still a pretty wide gap. Iceland is probably the only country in the world that could arguably be dubbed a "classless society."

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Donnie Darko on 01/03/06 at 11:28 pm


I would agree that both Communism and Socialism are both noble ideas. Their goal is to create a classless society of equals, with no regards to race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc... What's so ignoble about that? Capitalism is intrinsically geared towards a caste system, with the people at the top controlling mass amounts of wealth and property, while most everyone else lives poorly. The corporate bosses haven't earned the wealth that's at their disposal, they stole it. The world's resources belong to everyone, and those resources are the foundation of profits.

For all intensive purposes, as Maxwell points out, some of the most successful countries are socialist. Sweden being a great example of this. Germany is alright in this respect, but still far behind the Scandinavian countries. There is a large gap between the German poor and the German rich. Not anywhere near as large as in the US, but there is still a pretty wide gap. Iceland is probably the only country in the world that could arguably be dubbed a "classless society."


I think Communism is essential in countries like India, China, and Bangladesh.  Capitalism is kind of faulted.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: deadrockstar on 01/04/06 at 1:14 am

"Sorry, deadrockstar, but Communism is far from noble.  The object of Communism is NOT to share with your neighbor; it is to make your neighbor share with you, and if you remember your history, you will know that the grand-high muckety-mucks in the biggest Communist nation, the USSR, lived very high on the hog while the vast majority of the people lived in squalor (many of them in frozen squalor in Siberia)."

WTF? You completely and utterly misunderstood what I am saying. The object of communism IS to share with your neighbor. The object/intention of an idea is not the same thing as the way an idea works in practice. I was only speaking in terms of the THEORIES of Communism and Capitalism, not on the practices of these systems. I was saying that if you compare the STATED GOALS(not results) of each economic system, you will see that the ultimate end of one(theoretically) is completely equal ownership, while the the ultimate end of the other system(Capitalism) is that there is completely unequal ownership. In other words, ONE person would own everything.  Since we know through the example of the USSR that Communism(straight up) cannot work due to human nature, and since the goal of pure Capitlaism is malevolent(how could total private ownership not be dangerous to the welfare of the people?), we must therefore strive to find a medium between the two extremes that will protect us from ourselves, so to speak. Human nature does not allow us to succesfully practice true Communism, and by the same token human nature should show us that we cannot entrust the welfare of the people to an elite(or even worse, solitary) base of private economic interests.

"Communism and socialism are no different in their outcome than monopolistic capitalism; the only difference, in fact, is in who are the owners of the means of production.  Communism/socialism has the state as the owner, with the Party leadership keeping the bulk of the wealth; monopolistic capitalism has a small group of industrialists as the owners, again keeping the bulk of the wealth."

You make one mistake. And that is that you are equating socialism as the exact same thing as Communism, which is not how I was using the term. I meant Socialism as in the Western European model, not Socialism as in referring to Stalinist governments like the former U.S.S.R. or North Korea.

"Does capitalism lead to squalor amongst the people?  Monopolistic/plutocratic capitalism does, yes, which is what we have in this country for the most part.  True free market capitalism, which is what Adam Smith preached, is what allows the best in the marketplace to rise to the top.  Monopolistic capitalism may allow the best to be discovered, but if it cannot be bought out and co-opted, then the monopolists will weild their influence with the government and the press to have it denegrated, and then made illegal.

With true free market capitalism, the bulk of the wealth remains in the hands of the people, where people are rewarded for their hard work and their inventiveness.  Those who are lazy don't get as much reward.  Those employers who treat their employees abusively likewise get little reward, as there are many employers who will treat their employees as human beings, knowing that they get better work out of them that way."



Your intentions are noble, and I do agree with the lot of what you said here. However, the statement of those who are lazy don't get as much reward is the only folly I see. If I am misconstruing this I apologize(you weren't terribly clear with that statement), but it seems you are implying you believe in a Libertarian style free market, which does not have the social net any respectable human civilization in the 21st century should have. The problem with this idea of the free market is that it does not take into account the deficiencies that occur within human run systems. You make a mistake in ASSUMING that if enough people do well within a free market system, then the benefits will just naturally trickle down. That idea to me is every bit as fantasy as the idea that pure Communism can work.

To me, free-market socialism is the best solution because it addresses human fault on BOTH sides of the equation, public AND private. The economic system is generally free-market, rather than centrally planned. This makes sense to me because we have been shown through history that governments cannot succesfully manage economies. However, we know that because economic resources are ultimately limited, the free market will not be able to take care of all of the people. To make up for this unavoidable shortcoming, you have the saftey net of national health care, pensions, worker's rights, public education, etc. Its just common sense to me.

So the way I see it is that with Communism, basically you entrust your entire future to a group of human beings who call themselves the government, and with Capitalism, you entrust your entire future to a group of human beings who call themselves "business". EITHER way, its a wolf-in-sheeps-clothing type of thing. The only way to protect the common people from both sides is a balance between these two extremes. Democratic, free-market socialism. Thats the way I see it at least.

I hope you see where I was coming from better now.  :-\\

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/08/06 at 8:32 pm

OK, here is my view of the US Government:

It is a huge, bloated monstrocity that is an amalgam of thousands of individual parts.  And each of those parts is managed by tens of thousands of minions who only have one thing on their mind:  maintaining their own jobs.

Our System of Government may be a Representative Republic, but the Government itself is far from it.  It is a beast that is composed of hundreds of Dictatioral monopolies.  And do you think they care what our "Ellected Officials" want?  Of course not.

Our Government is no more responsible to listen to the President or Congress then it is to you and me.  It does what it wants, unless the Courts tell it to do otherwise.  And it is like that at both Federal and State levels.  Is is like this at local levels, but to a much lesser extent.

Simply look at the IRS.  They can take your money at will.  If you are late or do not pay enough, they smack you with massive fines and penalties.  But if they are wrong or make a mistake, do you get the same in return from them?  Of course not.

Look at Social Security.  What once started as a pension plan for Senior Citizens has become a monster.  They have added so many programs that even FDR would not recognize it.  And do you have a choice to pay into it?  Of course not.  Even if you have a terminal disease, you can't stop paying into it.  Even if you are over 65 and collecting it, you still have to pay if you are working.  Is this madness or what?

I have talked in here before about the Department Of Veterans Affairs.  Now there is an oxymoron if I ever heard of one.  They only care about keeping their own jobs.  I have gone there and seen empty wings and 3 month waiting lists.

For the most part, the "Government" cound not care less who the President is, or who controlls Congress.  After all, in 4-12 years, it will change.  It just keeps on going, the same as it always has.

Does anybody here really think that the IRS is any different under Bush then it was under Clinton?  Or under Reagan?  Or for that matter, under JFK?  Of course not.  And it is the same with the BLM, DOD, DOJ, HEW, and every other organization.  They know that there will be minor changes, but nothing seriously effects the Organization itself more then once every 20-30 years.

Why is this?  Well, when a President comes in, he will frequently replace the "Leader" of a group.  We get a new Secretary of State, and a few Undersecretaries.  And a few Ambassadors will be replaced.  But 99.99% of the people will keep on working just as they did under the last President (and the President before that, and the President before that, and so on and so on and so on).  And it is the same in every other department.  The figureheads change, but the Beaurocracy continues just as it did before.  "The King is Dead, Long Live The King!"

Of the 3 levels of Political Government, the Judicial has the most influence.  For the most part, they are the only ones with the power to make massive changes.  They can force some changes in the beaurocracy, but even those are largely worked around if they are unwanted (remember the much praised "Income Tax Reform"?)

The next most influential is Congress.  They only have influence because they hold the checkbook.  Tick off Congress, and you get less money.  But even that can be worked around.  And because most programs are planned 5-10 years in advance, any changes Congress makes are normally not felt for years (if ever).  They simply wait a few years, and things return to normal.

The one with the least amount of influence is the President.  Why pay much attention to him after all?  He will ony be there for 4-8 years, 10 at the most (assuming a 2 term President takes over from a President that dies half way through his term).  You simply say "Yes Sir", make cosmetic changes to satisfy the new President, and do things as you always did before behind his back.  By the time he finds out anything, he is either a lame duck or gone.

And the puppet he places in charge of your organization?  Who do you think they get their information from?  That's right, the life-long beaurocrats who have been in there for 20+ years.  They tell the puppet what they want him to think, and he tells that to the President.  If the President wants a change, they make a few minor changes, and continue as before.

And some of this comes first-hand.  In 10 years in the Military, do you think serving under Reagan was any different then serving under Bush Sr or Clinton?  Of course not.  We got the same food, live in the same barracks, went on the same training missions, and used the same equipment.  Do you think any other part of the Government would be any different?

Of you do, I have some prime Florida real estate I would love to sell you.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: deadrockstar on 01/08/06 at 8:39 pm

Actually I agree with you, Mushroom. But accepting that fact you also accept its so entrenched its unchangeable. The only thing that could change it something MASSIVE happening to this country economically or otherwise. And I'm talking much more catastrophic than anything we've been through recently. I mean, if the Great Depression could not undue it, I'd say it'll never change.

However since you can't change you might as well play the game and do what you can(that meager, meager little bit) within the system. Plus its a good way to pass the time. This may sound incredibally selfish(but I think all human beings feel it deep down), you are going to die one day and you won't have to deal with it anymore after that anyway.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/08/06 at 9:17 pm


Actually I agree with you, Mushroom. But accepting that fact you also accept its so entrenched its unchangeable.


I do not believe it can be changed, only steered.

Over time, the Government does change.  But it is a long and slow process, mostly because of the change of a new generation of people who run it.  Civil Rights is a good example of this.

The Governement was a "Good Old Boy" network up until the 1970's.  It is only in the 1980's and 1990's that most of the holdouts retired and left.  That kind of change is slow though, and comes about only when "fresh blood" replaces through attrician the people who controlled things before.

And I am not talking about individuals, but an entire "corporate mindset".  It takes a younger generation to change that, a group that were once thought of as "dangerous radicals"

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: deadrockstar on 01/08/06 at 9:21 pm


I do not believe it can be changed, only steered.

Over time, the Government does change.  But it is a long and slow process, mostly because of the change of a new generation of people who run it.  Civil Rights is a good example of this.

The Governement was a "Good Old Boy" network up until the 1970's.  It is only in the 1980's and 1990's that most of the holdouts retired and left.  That kind of change is slow though, and comes about only when "fresh blood" replaces through attrician the people who controlled things before.

And I am not talking about individuals, but an entire "corporate mindset".  It takes a younger generation to change that, a group that were once thought of as "dangerous radicals"


I see what you mean there, and thats what I was implying.

As a progressive, things might not look that great now. But then I have to stop and think "hmm the first baby boomers hit retirement age this year" and a big smile comes across my face because I know that all we have to do is bide our time and we will be in charge. Its kinda like with a business; the business owner's son doesnt agree with the way his old man does business but while his old man is still in charge he can do little to change his ways. He just waits until his old man passes the reigns and all of a sudden you get the speech of "the days of doing business like my father are over, blah blah blah". You know?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/09/06 at 12:48 am

I agree with a lot of what Mushroom is saying.  Not all of it.
Remember, Big Government is here to stay.  It's just a question of who gets the Big and who gets the Government!  The lobbyists make sure the Big money from the taxpayers goes to special interests to pour down a sieve.  The bureaucrats make sure Government authority drives all of us little folk so bonkers we don't even wanna vote anymore!
:D

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Chrisrj on 01/10/06 at 2:25 am

I want the government to stop acting like jerks and start tending to the people, simple as that.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/11/06 at 7:01 am




The Governement was a "Good Old Boy" network up until the 1970's.  It is only in the 1980's and 1990's that most of the holdouts retired and left.  That kind of change is slow though, and comes about only when "fresh blood" replaces through attrician the people who controlled things before.




The Government is still pretty muc the "Good Old Boy" Network.  Take a look at the top of the heap.  The president is the son of an ex-president.  A good portion of his advisors were advisors to his father.  If you
look at the Senate and House you will see a number of names that have recurred in congress over a generation or two(sometimes three).  So the network survives in a different form.  They just have a more sophisticated PR approach.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/11/06 at 11:38 am


The Government is still pretty muc the "Good Old Boy" Network.  Take a look at the top of the heap.  The president is the son of an ex-president.  A good portion of his advisors were advisors to his father.  If you
look at the Senate and House you will see a number of names that have recurred in congress over a generation or two(sometimes three).  So the network survives in a different form.  They just have a more sophisticated PR approach.


But you are talking about ellected officials.  It is in no way for several generations to be elledted to a post (or different posts).  After all, people often tend to choose those who are familiar to them.

Many other examples are the Adams family, Kennedy clan, the Roosevelts, the Gores, or even Mary Bono replacing her husband Sonny after his death.  Or Lurleen Wallace replacing George after he had to step down because of term limits.  Or in international politics, look at the Ghandi family of India, or Juan Peron and his wives Evita and Isabel.  And in more local levels, it is not unusual to see sons replacing fathers, who replaced grandfathers.

And this is not just in "Conventional Politics".  Look at James Hoffa Jr, who took over the Teamsters in 1998.

But do not confuse "Politicians" with "The Government".

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/12/06 at 10:09 am




But do not confuse "Politicians" with "The Government".




OK, but I am not sure to whom you are refering when you speak of  the Old Boy Government and the
New Boy Government.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/12/06 at 5:30 pm


OK, but I am not sure to whom you are refering when you speak of  the Old Boy Government and the
New Boy Government.


The Gvernment is not The Politicians.

The Government is the Byzantine system of beauros, beaurocracies, and employees that make up the bulk of those departments.  I am talking about the career "Civil Servants" and the departments that they work for.

In other words, the nuts and bolts people who actually run things.  The same people who have been working there for the last 20-30+ years.  Not the figureheads who head up those departments.  They are simply political apointees, and they change with every administration.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/12/06 at 9:22 pm


I want the government to stop acting like jerks and start tending to the people, simple as that.

I say it's time for some serious lobbying reform...and high time for the death of Milton Friedman (ideologically speakin).

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/13/06 at 10:49 am


I say it's time for some serious lobbying reform...and high time for the death of Milton Friedman (ideologically speakin).


And what exactly will that change?  That only changes the words that spew out from a politician.  It really does not change the Government.

Look at "Tax Reform".  Is the IRS or taxes any different now then it was 20 years ago?  Look at Social Security.  That has been reformed many times, and it is still the same as it was when I entered the workforce in 1981, and it will likely be the same when I retire in another 20 or so years.

Look at all the reforms we have had in the INS.  Is it any different then it was before?

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/14/06 at 7:52 am


The Gvernment is not The Politicians.

The Government is the Byzantine system of beauros, beaurocracies, and employees that make up the bulk of those departments.  I am talking about the career "Civil Servants" and the departments that they work for.

In other words, the nuts and bolts people who actually run things.  The same people who have been working there for the last 20-30+ years.  Not the figureheads who head up those departments.  They are simply political apointees, and they change with every administration.



But many of the career civil servants are also there because of patronage.  They acquired their positions by working on the right campaign, or because the family knew someone who could get them a good position(even entry level).  Promotions into these positions have as much to do with influence and connections as the do with competence, and anyone who has worked in government know that many times influence(payoff) will trump competence.  As in any area there are many people who do an excellent job and are quite honest in their dealings, but I do believe the government to be as entrenched as the politicians.

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Tia on 01/14/06 at 10:44 am

this might stir some s**t.

http://prorev.com/quietstorm.htm

"What is tragic about the disintegration of American culture is the promise it held, the freedoms it created, the hope it sustained. The single common thread behind the forces that led to its collapse was greed: national greed, economic greed, lust for a greater audience and so forth. As Jefferson predicted, "They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights."

"On the other hand, the scattered remnants are still there - certainly larger in scale, say, than the early American colonies that adopted the Constitution yet still lost in the miasma of the paranoid, prevaricating, gluttonous parody of America the larger culture has become. Those who would preserve the better America and recreate from its damaged remains are not naive fools; they are the new founding fathers and mothers of a time and place still to come. Nor are they fantasizing. Any place, any community, any gathering can become what Hakim Bey called a temporary autonomous zone, an oasis of freedom, decency and hope, in which a new culture can take sprout. Name it, enjoy it, use it. It's the best we have at the moment."

i pretty much totally agree. this society is on the verge of crushing itself under machiavellian policies, complacent fantasies of its own greatness, and a cannibalization of the most noble aspects of its past.

i picked up "long emergency" just now, maxwell. there was a wait on it in the library...

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/14/06 at 10:19 pm


And what exactly will that change?  That only changes the words that spew out from a politician.  It really does not change the Government.

Look at "Tax Reform".  Is the IRS or taxes any different now then it was 20 years ago?  Look at Social Security.  That has been reformed many times, and it is still the same as it was when I entered the workforce in 1981, and it will likely be the same when I retire in another 20 or so years.

Look at all the reforms we have had in the INS.  Is it any different then it was before?

I agree, it's frustrating as all hell.  But I wouldn't listen for  minute to a reforms suggested by anybody who advocates this supply-side economics garbage.  You know, such as Steve Forbes and his daffy "flat tax." 
One thing that has changed at the IRS as opposed to 20 years ago, is small-time debtors are much more likely to get hounded than big-time debtors. 
If you owe the IRS twenty million dollars, you'll hire one of those hifalutin tax attorneys to help you worm your way out of it while the IRS looks the other way.  If you owe the IRS twenty thousand dollars, they'll chase you to the end of the Earth and back, and back to the end of the Earth again!

Subject: Re: How do you view the US Government?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/16/06 at 6:56 pm


I agree, it's frustrating as all hell.  But I wouldn't listen for  minute to a reforms suggested by anybody who advocates this supply-side economics garbage.  You know, such as Steve Forbes and his daffy "flat tax." 


Things like a "flat tax" will never happen.  Why?  Because the IRS will never allow it.  Even if somehow COngress passed it and the President signed it into law, "The System" will bock it.  Why? Because it would threaten their jobs and their security.  After all, such a tax would put thousands of taxmen out of work and shrink the size (and importance) of the IRS.

These agencies are as self-protective as any mother is over her child.  This is why we get "jurisdiction battles" between law enforcement agencies.  Anything that might make their department weaker is not to be tolerated.  It is simply a protection instinct.  And in this, the FBI or BATF is no different then the BLM or DVA.  Even the accomplishment of their stated job can (and often does) take a backseat to keeping the organization alive.

And it is not just in politics.  Look how many charities spend more money raising money then they spend in their charitable activities.  Is there any wonder I do not give money to groups like United Way, Red Cross, or those "feed the hungry children" begathons?  I would rather give my money to a local group who works out of the back of a church then to give it to Pernell Roberts or Sally Struthers (neither of which looks like they have missed any meals in the last 3 decades).

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