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Subject: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: ChuckyG on 12/18/05 at 5:53 pm

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm

I feel safer already. 

I *almost* could see the reason for this, if he was requesting bomb making information and there was recent bomb activity in the region.  Requesting the "little red book" which is just a book of quotes though, give me a break.

We've clearly got way too many law enforcement agents, if they can justify sending two agents out to intimidate, er question, someone like this.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Dagwood on 12/18/05 at 7:01 pm

Are there not worse things going on in the world than a kid doing a research paper?  Geez, these guys need to get a grip. ::)

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: McDonald on 12/18/05 at 10:36 pm

I don't care if this kid is a bona fide communist who secretly hopes and prays for a violent workers revolution to overthrow the government... that's his business, as long as he keeps his political views vested in the pen, the ballot, and the protests. Communism is a perfectly legitimate political affiliation, and I am personally more concerned with someone who's checking out the latest piece of Pat Robertson trash, though I still don't think they ought to be spied on.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/19/05 at 1:00 am

Federal agents questioned a college student because he wanted to read Mao ?!?!

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: witchain on 12/19/05 at 2:26 pm

Dr. Williams said he had been planning to offer a course on terrorism next semester, but is reconsidering, because it might put his students at risk.
"I shudder to think of all the students I've had monitoring al-Qaeda Web sites, what the government must think of that," he said. "Mao Tse-Tung is completely harmless."


That is truly scary!

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 12/19/05 at 3:18 pm


Federal agents questioned a college student because he wanted to read Mao ?!?!

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/19/05 at 4:47 pm

Whatever any of us think of Mao Tse Tung, he is a figure of tremendous historical imoprtance, and certainly a valid topic for a senior paper.  This is just another example of the illegal, unconstitutional intrusions into our civil and constitutional rights (read abuses of power) sanctioned by this administration.  Do the word "impeachment" ring a bell.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 12/19/05 at 5:07 pm


Whatever any of us think of Mao Tse Tung, he is a figure of tremendous historical imoprtance, and certainly a valid topic for a senior paper.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/19/05 at 5:21 pm


I would not go that far.  This goes back to my "Government Vs. Administration" agruement.  YOu will always have Govt. Employees who overstep their bounds.  I would not go as far as to blame that on the Administration though.  It is simply a case of jerks abuseing their power.

What puzzles me though is who these agents claim to be.  They are unnamed, and the only identification in the article is "Department Of Homeland Security".  As far as I know, there are no arrest or investigation powers with that Department, other then how it related to the Coast Guard, or the INS (2 agencies that department absorbed).  This sounds more like the job of an overzealous US Marshal or FBI agent.  And neither of those 2 departments were named in the article.

But the reson he was investigated is that the student (who is un-named, and did not talk to the paper, all information came from the Professor) spent a lot of time overseas, including Indonesia and Philippines.  And as we all know, that area of the world has a lot of terrorism problems of their own.

I am curious to know what really happened.  We are getting information from a 3rd party for one.  In a court of law, it would not even be admissable.  Plus, I would like to know exactly who these agents worked for, and what was their resolution.

Oh, and it was not just because he wanted a copy of The Red Book.  The student wanted a particular version that was printed overseas.  It was the fact it was a foreign published version that caused it to be checked.  If he had ordered a domestic version, he never would have been checked at all.

Plus, this happened in October!  If it was so offensive, why wait 2 months to go public?


I'm not goinging into the specifice, but I  just dont't get how you can be such an apologist for  this blatant intrusion into the academic freedom of a student to read whatever the he11 he/she likes without government survailance.  I'm not going to give a lecture on primary sources, but would suggest that some members might want to explore that issue (I actually have a Chinese version, which someone has underlined, but I can't read it).  Seems to me you have a lot to learn about acadenic - no intellectual - freedoms.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 12/19/05 at 5:35 pm


I'm not goinging into the specifice, but I

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: ChuckyG on 12/19/05 at 6:25 pm


I would not go that far.  This goes back to my "Government Vs. Administration" agruement.  YOu will always have Govt. Employees who overstep their bounds.  I would not go as far as to blame that on the Administration though.  It is simply a case of jerks abuseing their power.


really? and the Patriot Act which allows agents more freedom isn't going to be abused?  What a coincidence, since checking library inter-loans is something the Patriot Act removed restrictions on.  The argument by the administration that is crying about the need for this Patriot Act, is the same one that claimed this sort of nonsense would never happen.


What puzzles me though is who these agents claim to be.  They are unnamed, and the only identification in the article is "Department Of Homeland Security".  As far as I know, there are no arrest or investigation powers with that Department, other then how it related to the Coast Guard, or the INS (2 agencies that department absorbed).  This sounds more like the job of an overzealous US Marshal or FBI agent.  And neither of those 2 departments were named in the article.

But the reson he was investigated is that the student (who is un-named, and did not talk to the paper, all information came from the Professor) spent a lot of time overseas, including Indonesia and Philippines.  And as we all know, that area of the world has a lot of terrorism problems of their own.

I am curious to know what really happened.  We are getting information from a 3rd party for one.  In a court of law, it would not even be admissable.  Plus, I would like to know exactly who these agents worked for, and what was their resolution.

Oh, and it was not just because he wanted a copy of The Red Book.  The student wanted a particular version that was printed overseas.  It was the fact it was a foreign published version that caused it to be checked.  If he had ordered a domestic version, he never would have been checked at all.

Plus, this happened in October!  If it was so offensive, why wait 2 months to go public?


yes yes, we know.  You didn't see it with your own eyes, or read it on NewsMax, so it can't possibly be true. 

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/19/05 at 6:32 pm


I also would be concerned if it was The Turner Diaries.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: ChuckyG on 12/19/05 at 8:43 pm

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/12/18/dhs_agents_visit_stu.html

It seems that there is some controversy around it.  Someone in California ran a similar story with the place and details replaced (a little dis-information perhaps).  A librarian is questioning some of the details, but the professor and reporter have spoken up that what they reported is what they've seen.

If only the government spent this amount of time and resources looking into people who purchase guns in a suspicious manner.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 12/20/05 at 10:32 am

With me, I am waiting to hear some more information.  This story has a lot of issues with it.

The most notable one is that it is hearsay.  The writers of the original story admit that they never talked to the student themselves.  All of the information came from the Professor.  In addition, there were no names given so the story can be verified.  No student name (which is being held for privacy reasons), no names of the Agents, no names of Supervisors, Not even a name of the actual agency that the agents worked for, or where they are based.

This story is all currently "somebody said that so-and-so told them this".  There is a reason hearsay is not admissable in court.  If this went before a judge right now, it would be tossed right out.

Now do not get me wrong.  I am not saying it did not happen.  What I am saying is that there is more here then what we are seeing.  In addition, there is the 2 month lag between the incident and it's being reported that makes me cautious.  If this was so offensive, why wait 2 months to tell anybody about it?

Add to this the fact that no "reputable" news agencies have picked p this story.  Doing several searches on Google, I came up with no stories on CNN, NBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, New York Times, or anyplace else.  The only references I find all point back are from what are essentially "news Blogs", and every one is basically a re-hash of the original story.  A lot in here talk about "credible news sources".  The closest I found to another resonable look at the story is this:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510725

I do not nessicarily doubt the authenticity of the story, but I do question the accuracy of the story.  And I make no apologies for this incident if it happened in the way it has been presented to us.  I simply question "what really happened".

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/20/05 at 3:24 pm

Back in the early 80's I wrote for my FBI file, and got it.  Some stuff from when I lived in Chile - nice candid pix, and about some protests I attended, like of a Wllm Wastmoreland speech (which I also attended and did not disrupt).  A few years ago (87', 88'?), I recommended Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman to a student.  He bought the book, paying with a credit card.  Later, he wrote for his FBI file.  It contained a copy of the credit card form.  So Big Brother has been watching for some time.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 12/21/05 at 10:15 am


Back in the early 80's I wrote for my FBI file, and got it.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/21/05 at 2:37 pm


To be honest, that does not surprise me at all.

When I first enlisted in the Marine Corps, it was 1982.  One of the things that I had to go through was a background check by the FBI.  When I was asked in the pre-screening if I had ever been overseas, I told them yes.  I had been to Canada twice.

2 months later, the screening came back.  I was surprised to find out that I had been to Canada 3 times, and Mexico 2 times!  I had no memory of them, but my parents confirmed that I had been there.  I had not told this to the FBI, and neither of my parents were ever questioned by them.  Yet there it was on my FBI sheet, 3 visits to Canada, and 2 to Mexico.

And remember, this was in 1983.  The visits to Canada and Mexico I could not remember were in 1966 and 1967.


Yes, and the FBI was bugging Martin Luther King and lots of other people.  And when this was discovered Congress pass a law, I forget what it is called, that forbids this kind of survailance without a warrent issued by a special 11 member court.  The warrent can even be issued within 48 hours after the survailance.  I'm not sure if this law allows them to "flag" certain books, and if it does, I would be curious as to the criteria for selecting them.  The book in question in this case, as the subtitle says, is a study of The Degredation of Labor in the 20th Century.  Clearly, published by Monthly Review Press, a leftist interpretation, but hardly either a call for, or how to book on violance.  All of this is reminisant of the '50s witch hunts designed to stifle political disent and intellectual freedom, and I assume from this report that they are still at it.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: ChuckyG on 12/21/05 at 3:39 pm

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/12/21/update_dhs_visits_st.html

Small update on it. Still appears to be real. Still not shocked.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: McDonald on 12/21/05 at 8:04 pm

So can anyone just write to the FBI, ask for their file, and they'll give it to you? Do they have a file on everybody? F r e a k y...

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/21/05 at 8:18 pm


So can anyone just write to the FBI, ask for their file, and they'll give it to you? Do they have a file on everybody? F r e a k y...

Yeah, and if you don't have an FBI file, they'll be happy to start one on you just for writing to them and asking if you have a file!  I don't recommend alerting the FBI to your existence. 
It's like there was this spam going around a few weeks ago.  It was from admin@fbi.gov.  It said something like "You have visited over 30 illegal websites.  It is crucial that you download the attached documents and follow the instructions...yaddada-yaddada... yours faithfully, Joe Blow, FBI.
Nobody with a modicum of web savvy would pay that any mind.  I didn't.  Then I saw on the news an item about the FBI illegal website spam and how the FBI wants you to know they have nothing to do with it, and how they want to catch the bums who are sending out these infected documents, and so forth.  You were supposed to call a toll free number or visit some web address.  So I figured, "I see, you contact the FBI, give them your information, and in a few weeks you'll get an email from the FBI saying, "You have been visiting illegal websites..."
:o :-\\

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/22/05 at 4:06 pm


So can anyone just write to the FBI, ask for their file, and they'll give it to you? Do they have a file on everybody? F r e a k y...


Yes, write to the FBI Freedom of Information Act Officer, the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover building, Washington D.C.  Give your name and any aliases you might have used.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/22/05 at 4:11 pm


Yeah, and if you don't have an FBI file, they'll be happy to start one on you just for writing to them and asking if you have a file!  I don't recommend alerting the FBI to your existence. 
It's like there was this spam going around a few weeks ago.  It was from admin@fbi.gov.  It said something like "You have visited over 30 illegal websites.  It is crucial that you download the attached documents and follow the instructions...yaddada-yaddada... yours faithfully, Joe Blow, FBI.
Nobody with a modicum of web savvy would pay that any mind.  I didn't.  Then I saw on the news an item about the FBI illegal website spam and how the FBI wants you to know they have nothing to do with it, and how they want to catch the bums who are sending out these infected documents, and so forth.  You were supposed to call a toll free number or visit some web address.  So I figured, "I see, you contact the FBI, give them your information, and in a few weeks you'll get an email from the FBI saying, "You have been visiting illegal websites..."
:o :-\\


Actually, the first time I asked for my file, before living in Chile, I was disappointed that I didn't have one.  I wrote back to them that I was a dangerous radical and that they were falling behind on their job.  Of course they started one.  I wonder if they are still looking.  And You know, I don't give a flying duck.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/22/05 at 9:03 pm


Yes, write to the FBI Freedom of Information Act Officer, the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover building, Washington D.C.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: danootaandme on 12/24/05 at 8:21 am

oh, oh!!!!  The kid has been outed.  It was a hoax!

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 12/24/05 at 10:38 am


oh, oh!!!!

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 12/24/05 at 11:30 am

In my investigation into this little matter, I found a lot of interesting sites on the net.  They all took this story as gospel truth, with no verification at all.  To bad they are willing to accept things at face value, with no skepticism at all.

In the end, it just shows that the persecution of a student who requests a book by Chairman Mao just indicates that Mao's regime has been relocated- to Washington.
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/comments.php?id=2575_0_1_0_C

Much as we praise bourgeoisie industry and commerce at this web site, the attachment of the bourgeoisie to social and political stability, and to the state as the best way to ensure that stability, is the kind of thing that gets us to goons knocking on doors asking probing questions about one's reading habits. It's what I call the "bourgeoisie imagination," and because it prizes order and tends to see the state as an organic extension of society and community, it tends to view with suspicion or horror anyone or anything that, for whatever reason, does not fit. Anything that could, even in the remotest way, threaten or jeopardize that order.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/featherstone/featherstone45.html

Just this past week there were public reports that a college student in Massachusetts had two government agents show up at his house because he had gone to the library and asked for the official Chinese version of Mao Tse-tung's Communist Manifesto. Following his professor's instructions to use original source material, this young man discovered that he, too, was on the government's watch list.
Think of the chilling effect on free speech and academic freedom when a government agent shows up at your home -- after you request a book from the library.
Incredibly, we are now in an era where reading a controversial book may be evidence of a link to terrorists.
Something is amiss here. Something doesn't make sense. We need a thorough and independent investigation of these activities.
The Congress and the American people deserve answers now.
Sen. Edward M. Kennedy
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/12/22/on_wiretapping_bush_isnt_listening_to_the_constitution/?page=2

The book being watched? No, not some Islamist tome, al-Qaeda training manual or technical work on explosives, but a well-known book the whole text of which you can find online or order from Amazon.com. It

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: ChuckyG on 12/24/05 at 12:15 pm


In my investigation into this little matter, I found a lot of interesting sites on the net.  They all took this story as gospel truth, with no verification at all.  To bad they are willing to accept things at face value, with no skepticism at all.


While it's easy to find sites where there was no skeptism shown for it, there are plenty of sites that reprorted it that did. Picking out a few dozen of those is no great challenge. 

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/24/05 at 7:40 pm

What scares me is that I was skeptical, but not able to dismiss the story out of hand.  It seemed risible to me for the FBI to chase some kid for ordering a Mao, but I couldn't put it past this government!
::)

In retrospect, the story does show some of the "red flags," if you will, indicating an urban legend.  Mostly because the was vague in unverifiable.

Subject: Re: Student questioned for requesting a book via inter-library loan

Written By: Mushroom on 01/04/06 at 9:56 am


What scares me is that I was skeptical, but not able to dismiss the story out of hand.  It seemed risible to me for the FBI to chase some kid for ordering a Mao, but I couldn't put it past this government!
::)

In retrospect, the story does show some of the "red flags," if you will, indicating an urban legend.  Mostly because the was vague in unverifiable.


That was exactly what I was pointing out from the beginning.  I did not doubt the authenticity of it, just the accuracy.  Now it looks like I should have been questioning the authenticity as well.

Mostly, I questioned it because of the time between the event and it's being reported, and the fact that the Agency that was supposed to be doing the investigation had no businees to be doing that in the first place.  It would be like the BATF doing an investigation into counterfiting of US currency.  That is the jurisdiction of the Secret Service, not BATF.  And everybody knows how terrororial law enforcement agencies are of "their turf".

And the statement from DOH when they were asked about it was along the lines of "we are looking into this claim".  The normal "denial" is that "we can't comment on an ongoing investigation".  So it sounds like they were just as surprised at the claim as everybody else was.  But my earliest thoughts on this is that it was some sort of FBI (or local law enforcement) investigation, and the "blame" was being put on the wrong agency.

I am not sure if I should be glad, relieved, or frightened that it was all a hoax.  And of course, the student who did this is not even going to get a slap on the wrist.  I guess integrity is not very important at that facility of higher education.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510754

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