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Subject: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: GWBush2004 on 01/05/06 at 10:12 pm

Who killed General Motors?
By: Patrick J. Buchanan

Willys built the jeeps that carried Ike's armies across Europe. Ford built the Sherman tanks. Packard made the engines for JFK's PT boat and for the P-40s of Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers. Studebaker built the Weasel armored personnel carrier.

Chevrolet built the engines for the Flying Boxcar, Buick for the B-24 Liberator, Oldsmobile for the B-25 Mitchell Col. "Jimmy" Doolittle flew in his "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" raid in 1942.

Nash-Kelvinator built the Navy Corsair and Hudson the Helldiver that succeeded the Dauntless dive-bomber that sank four Japanese carriers at Midway. But no company matched the contributions to victory of General Motors, the greatest company of them all.

Now, most of those companies with the legendary names – Packard, Hudson, Studebaker, Nash, Oldsmobile – are gone. Of the "Big Three" that survive, Chrysler is German-owned, and Ford and GM are bleeding, and their debt has fallen to junk-bond status. Delphi, the auto-parts supplier for GM, just declared bankruptcy.

Thanksgiving week – its share of the U.S. market down from 46 percent, 30 years ago, to 26 percent today – GM announced the closing of nine more American plants and the dismissal of 30,000 more workers.

Many reasons are given for the decline of the U.S. auto industry. The Volkswagen "Beetle" that invaded America in the late 1950s, the Toyotas and Hondas that followed, the Korean Kias coming in today are, we are told, cheaper and more reliable, and deliver better mileage. But there is a more basic reason for America's industrial decline.

A sea change has taken place in the mindset of our elites. The economic patriotism of Hamilton and Henry Clay, of Lincoln and T.R. and, yes, of the Robber Barons of the Gilded Age, who forged America into the mightiest industrial machine the world had ever seen, is dead.

To the economic patriots of the Old Republic, trade policy was to be designed to benefit, first, the American worker. They wanted American families to have the highest standard of living on earth and U.S. industry to be superior to that of any and all nations. If this meant favoring American manufacturers with privileged access to U.S. markets and keeping foreign goods out with high tariffs, so be it.

But that Hamiltonian America-First vision that guided us for 150 years no longer informs our politics. Economic patriotism is dead.

For the Davos generation of leaders puts the Global Economy first. They are all good internationalists. If it's good for the Global Economy, it must be good for America. Theirs is a quasi-religious faith in that same free-trade ideology for which Hamilton, Clay, Lincoln and T.R. had only spitting contempt.

And like Marxists who refuse to question their dogmas, despite manifest signs of failure, our free-traders believe that everything that is happening to America has to be happening for the best.

That U.S. manufacturing that once employed a third of our labor force now employs perhaps 10 percent does not matter. That the most self-sufficient nation in history, which produced 96 percent of all that it consumed, now depends on foreigners for a fourth of its steel, half its autos and machine tools, two-thirds of its textiles and apparel, and most of its cameras, bicycles, motorcycles, shoes, televisions, videotape machines, radios, etc. does not matter.

That tens of thousands of foreign workers are brought in each year by U.S. employers to take high-tech jobs, that U.S. factories are shut down daily here while opening in China, that professional work is being outsourced to India, that we borrow $2 billion a day to finance consumption of foreign goods – none of this matters. The nation does not matter. The country does not matter. For we are all now in a Global Economy.

And so, as the jobs and skills of U.S. manufacturing workers disappear, and the taxes they pay into Social Security, Medicare, and federal and state governments fall, and the cost of their pensions is passed on to taxpayers, and the government goes deeper into debt to cover rising social costs corporations used to carry, other countries quietly observe.

Fifty years ago, a trade deficit of 6 percent of GDP, a hemorrhaging of manufacturing jobs and a growing dependence on foreign nations for the vital necessities of our national life would have been taken as signs of the decline and fall of a great nation.

Our elites tell us that we have simply not read Thomas Friedman, we do not understand that the old Hobbesian world is history, that we have entered a new era of interdependence, where democracy and free markets will flourish and usher us all into a golden age – and we Americans will lead the way.

If they are right, we are Cassandras. If they are wrong, they are fools who sold out the greatest country in all history for a mess of potage.

Link

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/07/06 at 2:52 pm

The Management of GM killed GM.  "On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors" by John DeLorean.  Corporate Interests have been selling the USA to the highest bidder going back to the 50's and they aren't done yet.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/07/06 at 4:01 pm

Pat gets a whole bunch of things right in his commentary, but let's not pretend the Gilded Age Robber Barons were economic patriots.  They went to any lengths necessary to exploit the American worker and fought with all weapons--legal and extralegal--to keep the workers from organizing for fair wages, reasonable hours, and safe conditions.  The motto of big business then is the same as now: "The most work for the least pay."
Buchanan cannot give organized labor any credit as a rightwing idealogue, and this is a shame because it leads him to mendacious claims about "patriotism" and beneficent intentions among the capitalists of previous generations.
You could not extract Pennsylvania minerals in China, and it was not feasible to forge Pennsylvania steel in Mexico.  Rockafeller needed to build American railroads in America, that much is obvious.
If industrialists of yore were faithful to American workers, it was out of georgraphical necessity and pressure from organized labor.
Friedman's analysis may be factually correct, but it isn't morally correct.  Globalization without the strong counterforce of organized labor and without regard to the ecological limits of the globe will result in catastrophe on a scale without precedent.
General Motors was not killed by a "who" so much as a "what," and that is the greed of corporate executives who are forced by a self-destructive corporatism to funnel every dime possible into the burgeoning bank accounts of the wealthy few.  Yes, greed killed GM, and what will kill General Motors will kill America.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: La Sine Pesroh on 01/07/06 at 11:53 pm

The problem with General Motors is that their product lines have been stagnant for far too long. Up until the late 1960's, GM was the worldwide leader in automotive design, and the quality of their vehicles was among the best in the world. Their cars were elegant and stylish, and they didn't rely wholly on market research and focus groups when it came to designing their vehicles.
   Today, it seems that the quality gap between GM and the Japanese automakers has been pretty much closed (after their quality suffered horrendously in the 70's and 80's), yet their designs (for the most part) are still quite bland and they lack the refinement of their Asian counterparts.
   Not to mention that the suits at GM have made some spectacular missteps. Remember the Pontiac Aztek (which I like to refer to as the "Edsel Of The New Millenium")? How in the bloody hell did that thing ever make it off the drawing board and into the showrooms looking the way it did?  By all accounts, it was a well-executed vehicle, but it was wrapped in some of the ugliest sheetmetal and plastic to emerge from a domestic auto plant since the demise of American Motors. They also killed off their oldest brand name, Oldsmobile, while at the same time spending a good chunk of their capital buying Saab and the rights to the Hummer brand.
    It's not for lack of engineering skill, that's for sure. The latest Corvette, the Z06, is by far the best Vette ever built, and can outperform "supercars" that cost two to three times as much. However, there's the problem. GM is using too much of their technical ability in developing "prestige cars" (witness also the Chevrolet SSR, a sort of modern El Camino that costs over $40,000 and examples of which have sat unsold for months on dealers' lots--a vehicle that is capable of stunning performance but is also completely impractical), and not enough in their regular passenger car lineup.
   GM is not dead yet. I still believe that they can build vehicles that will send customers scrambling to their showrooms, and being an auto enthusiast (and a traditional GM loyalist) I try to keep up on their future plans, and I can tell you that they have some vehicles that will be coming out within the next few years that could certainly generate the buzz that they so sorely need. Saturn, in particular, has a couple of cars coming out in the next 2 years that I think will blow people away (Google "Saturn Sky" and "Saturn Aura" and you'll see what I mean  ;)). Also, it is rumored that Chevrolet will unveil a prototype for a new Camaro at the 2006 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, which is only a week or two away. So don't count them out yet.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: ChuckyG on 01/08/06 at 10:56 am


  GM is not dead yet. I still believe that they can build vehicles that will send customers scrambling to their showrooms, and being an auto enthusiast (and a traditional GM loyalist) I try to keep up on their future plans, and I can tell you that they have some vehicles that will be coming out within the next few years that could certainly generate the buzz that they so sorely need. Saturn, in particular, has a couple of cars coming out in the next 2 years that I think will blow people away (Google "Saturn Sky" and "Saturn Aura" and you'll see what I mean  ;)). Also, it is rumored that Chevrolet will unveil a prototype for a new Camaro at the 2006 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, which is only a week or two away. So don't count them out yet.


yeah, well I say the new prototype Camaro today on one of the car websites.  It's like they say the Mustang and the Challenger and said "How do we design something that looks like both, while at the same time looking really ugly?"  GM has always been good with drivetrains, but their entire cabin design team should be fired, the interior of the new SSR is awful (I know, I really liked it when I first saw the car until I looked inside it).  Cheap, poorly fitted plastic is their new motto.  Between the crappy transmissions of Chrylser, the overpriced Fords, and the cheap plastic GMs, I finally had to break down and buy a Japanese vehicle to replace my last car. 

So yeah. Poor GM has to pay it's workers, and maintain their healthcare costs.  If they didn't devolve into building crap for the past 15-20 years they wouldn't be in the same boat they are now.  Most of the deals these automakers are stuck in, were designed to keep them from shipping jobs out of the country.  They still shipped the jobs overseas,  so they pay people to sit in a room rather than build cars from prior labor arangements.  They really have no one to blame except themselves.  However, history has shown us that the Republicans love to give huge bailouts to large companies, (like Chrysler in the 80s, or the airlines in 2002) so I'm sure they'll be more than happy to boost the profits of GM at the same time they cry about the costs of social programs and slash away at them.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: La Sine Pesroh on 01/08/06 at 1:23 pm


yeah, well I say the new prototype Camaro today on one of the car websites.  It's like they say the Mustang and the Challenger and said "How do we design something that looks like both, while at the same time looking really ugly?" 
Ugly? I must most humbly disagree with you.  That thing looks TUFF. ;)

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Don Carlos on 01/08/06 at 2:07 pm

In '01 I bought a Honda Civic (made in Tennesse) instead of a Ford built in Mexico.  But Pat B is right about the lack of economic "patriotism".  The problem is, it is nothing new.  While it may have existed in U.S. POLITICAL circles and manifested itself in trade and tariff policies (note that his examples of Eco nationalists are all politicians), it NEVER existed in corporate boardrooms.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: deadrockstar on 01/08/06 at 2:09 pm

Washington, Lincoln, Hamilton, Jackson, Grant, and Franklin.  ::)

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/08/06 at 7:40 pm


The Management of GM killed GM.   "On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors" by John DeLorean.  Corporate Interests have been selling the USA to the highest bidder going back to the 50's and they aren't done yet.


Let's see...  are we going to seriously take the word of somebody who got caught trying to sell cocaine in order to keep his own failing car company from going bankrupt?  And not only that, but a book he wrote in 1979?  You might was well try to reference a book from 1979 and try to use it to describe what is going on in the Middle East today or what is happening in Computers.

To me, John D Has little credability when it comes to what other companies are doing wrong.  It is like listening to Kenneth Ley trying to explain why Delta Airlines is going bankrupt.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/08/06 at 8:04 pm

What really killed GM:  Growing to large, and acting as a "Corporate Raider".

I used to work for one of the largest divisions of the GM Conglomerate:  Hughes Aerospace.  During the 1970's, GM went into a buying frenzy, acquiring corporation after corporation after corporation.  And a lot of them (like Hughes) had nothing to do with the automotive industry.

GM simply bought them up, then sold them off piece by piece for a profit.  The first to go was the Toolco Aircraft Division, which had just won the contract from the US Army to produce the AH-64 Apache Helicopter.  Then piece by piece it was sold off.  The Defense section (which included Optics, Missle and Radar) was sold to Raytheon.  Satellite was sold to Boeing.  Even DirecTV was sold to NewsCorp.  What little was left after 15 years of sales was absorbed into ACDelco.

I was working for Hughes Space Systems when the sale to Boeing was announced, and months later when it was officially transfered.  The place was like a morgue.  Even though Boeing promised no changes would happen, we knew otherwise.  I was hit 6 months later in the first wave of layoffs.

I have a lot of family memories of GM.  One of my ancestors was the founder of ACDelco.  But that does not make me blind to what the company has been doing.  The profits made from selling off Hughes (and other companies) simply let them live "high on the hog" for longer then Chrysler and Ford did.  And now they are going through what the other 2 of the "Big 3" did 10 years ago.

GM will probably survive this.  But there will be a tightening of the belt.  We already saw that 2 years ago with the closure of Geo and Oldsmobile.  I expect Pontiac or Saturn to be next.  And it will probably mean closure of some plants and the sales of some corporate assets.

GM is in better shape then Chrysler was in 1979.  And they survived another 19 years before being bought in a Corporate raid by Daimler-Benz.  Although I am sure that just like Chrysler, the GM we have today will be much different from the GM in 2026.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/09/06 at 12:55 am


Let's see...  are we going to seriously take the word of somebody who got caught trying to sell cocaine in order to keep his own failing car company from going bankrupt?  And not only that, but a book he wrote in 1979?  You might was well try to reference a book from 1979 and try to use it to describe what is going on in the Middle East today or what is happening in Computers.

To me, John D Has little credability when it comes to what other companies are doing wrong.  It is like listening to Kenneth Ley trying to explain why Delta Airlines is going bankrupt.



John D was smart, he knew he had a crappy product, so he sold the only substance that might help his sales.  You'd have to be high as a kite on cocaine to blow six figures on that glorified bucket of bolts called a DeLorean!
:D

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/09/06 at 9:16 am


Let's see...  are we going to seriously take the word of somebody who got caught trying to sell cocaine in order to keep his own failing car company from going bankrupt?  And not only that, but a book he wrote in 1979?  You might was well try to reference a book from 1979 and try to use it to describe what is going on in the Middle East today or what is happening in Computers.

To me, John D Has little credability when it comes to what other companies are doing wrong.  It is like listening to Kenneth Ley trying to explain why Delta Airlines is going bankrupt.




Say what you will, the book was a brilliant expose in its day, and a lot of what he said about management still holds true.  Age, in and of itself, does not negate the truth. I don't know how you would equate his knowledge of GM to be the sam as Ken Ley and Delta(meaning nil).  DeLorean came from a solid working class family to be, at 40, the youngest head of a GM division, and that was only the beginning. He had a brilliant career, and I have always thought that that bust was the set up that he contended it was, he was aquitted. Maybe a bit more of his insider whistleblower truth is what we need.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_De_Lorean

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/09/06 at 12:20 pm


Ugly? I must most humbly disagree with you.  That thing looks TUFF. ;)

Isn't that a Tyco racer, AL-B?
;)

As DC said, he bought a Honda made in Tennessee.  If you buy a late model vehicle and you want to know where all the parts were manufactured, you have to do copious research.  Your car may come from three continents! 
Isn't it perverse how Detroit went from being the seventh richest city in the world in 1950 to what it is today?  Downtown fields of wildflowers bloom between the crumbling tenaments and the abandoned warehouses.  That's what you get for giving corporations a free hand in running the economy.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/09/06 at 7:08 pm


Isn't that a Tyco racer, AL-B?
;)

As DC said, he bought a Honda made in Tennessee.  If you buy a late model vehicle and you want to know where all the parts were manufactured, you have to do copious research.  Your car may come from three continents! 
Isn't it perverse how Detroit went from being the seventh richest city in the world in 1950 to what it is today?  Downtown fields of wildflowers bloom between the crumbling tenaments and the abandoned warehouses.  That's what you get for giving corporations a free hand in running the economy.


My 1994 Ford Escort has a sticker saying it is 100% Made in USA.  Probable the last one in the whole wide world.  :(

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: ChuckyG on 01/11/06 at 1:24 pm


Let's see...  are we going to seriously take the word of somebody who got caught trying to sell cocaine in order to keep his own failing car company from going bankrupt?  And not only that, but a book he wrote in 1979?  You might was well try to reference a book from 1979 and try to use it to describe what is going on in the Middle East today or what is happening in Computers.

To me, John D Has little credability when it comes to what other companies are doing wrong.  It is like listening to Kenneth Ley trying to explain why Delta Airlines is going bankrupt.




Too bad he was acquitted after it was proven that he was set up in that cocaine deal, as the released video tape proved later.  Guess that blows away that conspiracy theory.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: ChuckyG on 01/11/06 at 1:28 pm


My 1994 Ford Escort has a sticker saying it is 100% Made in USA.  Probable the last one in the whole wide world.  :(


I doubt it was accurate even at the time.  It was probably 100% final assembled in America and not much more American than that. 

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: STAR70 on 01/11/06 at 7:24 pm

Toyota killed GM

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/12/06 at 10:12 am


Toyota killed GM


No, I don't go for that.  Why blame them for being successful?  I blame the American car
companies for not doing a better job, and the American public for allowing the power structure to sell
our country.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/12/06 at 9:18 pm

Just when American auto manufacturers were getting around to making decent fuel-effecient cars, the oil glut of the mid-'80s came around.  Thus the American consumer got the idea that cheap gas would last forever.  So the SUV go popular, and bigger, more popular, and even bigger!  Now we're like the T-Rex 65 million years ago, and it's starting to snow!  Just like in 1973, America has a fleet of boats-on-wheels and gasoline prices rising with no sign of a drop off!  Smart GM, smart America, reeeeal feckin' smart!

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: LyricBoy on 01/14/06 at 7:58 am


The Management of GM killed GM.   "On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors" by John DeLorean.  Corporate Interests have been selling the USA to the highest bidder going back to the 50's and they aren't done yet.


GM has been ruined in a decades-long team effort between labor and management.

Labor is grossly overpaid, which I equally place blame on Management because nobody held a gun to Management's head when it signed those labor contracts.  And management is hugely bloated.

And for years, GM has treated its suppliers like dirt.  In this day and age you would have to be a complete idiot to want to be a major supplier to GM.  They will abuse you, set you up, and then claim that "we have no obligations under our contract and can cut you off at any time".

I know of one HUGE supplier who has recently told General Motors that they do not want their business.  It took GM 3 months to finally figure out what they meant.  This supplier is now systematically pulling out of GM, and now other suppliers likely will "take advantage" by jacking up prices on the company.

GM and its work force have built up a negative Karma balance that rivals the National Debt.  Sink or swim, I don't care. Reap what you sow.  ;D

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/14/06 at 10:11 pm

[quote author=Ły

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: LyricBoy on 01/15/06 at 7:18 am


So, what is the proper wage for an automobile assembly line worker in 2006.  What is the proper compensation for a GM executive?  How much is "grossly overpaid" and why?



Well, wages+benefits a groundskeeper at a GM Plant (you know, the guys cuttig the grass) are pulling in about $75,000 a year.  That's pretty hefty and perhaps I stick my neck out by calling that grossly overpaid.

What do the executives make?  Likely well in to 8 digits ($10MM+) which is absurdly high, considering that they are running a company that is losing millions.

Now, if you have an hourly worker who is working extra hours, pulling down LOTS of over time and raking in $100K, I won't complain.... unless of course he is in a largely unskilled job mowing grass or cleaning the latrines.

What should a proper CEO make?  My position is that he gets a base of $75,000+benefits, and then an incentive program that caps out at about $650,000 but the company has to be making a blithering fortune to get that payout.  Being a CEO is a tough job and it takes good talent.  But the ciurrent salary structures put them into a "royalty" status and that money puts them completely out of touch with reality.

Middle management?  No middle manager should make more than $120,000 and that is a number that should be rarely reached.  I see too many pure bureaucrats pulling down $150k that coukd be replaced by a more qualified recent college grad for, say, $65k.

...Note that all the figures I mention above are quite generous, but are fathoms below what major car makers pay today.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Tia on 01/15/06 at 7:49 am

i forget who, i think it was ford, the executive sees that the foreign car companies are making more money and he says, okay, we're implementing cost-cutting measures! lay off 30,000 people and close four factories!

wtf? even *i* can see that's a stupid policy, and i make... well, never mind what i make, but i'm pretty sure it's less than this CEO. obviously the europeans are kicking the US companies' ays because they're making quality product. and they're making quality product because they pay their workers a decent wage and they put resources into R&D. airbus is getting ready to hand US airplane manufacturers their heads too, because the paradigm in this country is this draconian attitude of cutting corners at every sign of crisis.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: LyricBoy on 01/15/06 at 8:37 am


i forget who, i think it was ford, the executive sees that the foreign car companies are making more money and he says, okay, we're implementing cost-cutting measures! lay off 30,000 people and close four factories!

wtf? even *i* can see that's a stupid policy, and i make... well, never mind what i make, but i'm pretty sure it's less than this CEO. obviously the europeans are kicking the US companies' ays because they're making quality product. and they're making quality product because they pay their workers a decent wage and they put resources into R&D. airbus is getting ready to hand US airplane manufacturers their heads too, because the paradigm in this country is this draconian attitude of cutting corners at every sign of crisis.


1.  The Japanese "transplant" automotive plants in the USA have far fewer people working the assembly lines than the "Big 3", and at a lower total wage.  Why would you think that GM/Ford would not need to trim workforce? 

2.  The Europeans are hardly kicking US automaker's butts.  (The Japanese are the butt kickers)  Where is Renault in today's market?  Fiat?  They do not exist in the USA any more.  Mercedes is no longer the top quality guy.  And the Europeans own Daimler Chrysler, whose financial situation is only marginally better than GM and Ford.  Take a look at VW's sales in the USA which dropped in 2005.  And general Motors is now the $1 brand in China, edging out VW.  BMW is doing pretty well thought, I have to admit.

3.  Airbus is subsidized out the butt by the European Union governments with low-interest loans and outright grants.  And the Airbus A-380, while impressively huge, has run out of serious orders (they'e only taken 150 orders)  and is projected to be a white elephant.  Last year, Boeing posted record sales of commercial aircraft and is anticipated to once regain its spot as the largest commercial airplane manufacturer.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/15/06 at 8:49 am

I never go gor the "it's labors fault" argument.  The workers at american auto plants make wages that allow them to have houses, food, clothes, education, healthcare.  Every worker who goes to work should get that kind of respect.  The Japanese model of compensation has wages of those at the top scaled at a percentage of the wages as those at the bottom.  It keeps the wages of the lowest from being too low and the wages of those at the top from being grossly inflated.  In the United States we go the other way.  The top is paid more if it pays those at the bottom less.  Iaccoca and Welch helped define that.  In additon shareholders aren't content anymore with a solid conservative dividend.  They are all looking for the next big score, like Google, and bail so that they can chase a higher, though fleeting and undependable, higher rate. 

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: LyricBoy on 01/15/06 at 9:34 am


  The top is paid more if it pays those at the bottom less.  Iaccoca and Welch helped define that.  


Note that in 1980 when Chrysler was in severe trouble, Lee Iacocca worked for the wage of one dollar per year.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/15/06 at 10:38 am

[quote author=Ły

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Tia on 01/15/06 at 10:53 am

[quote author=Ły

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: LyricBoy on 01/15/06 at 12:54 pm


so basically what you're saying is that even though poor quality is the obvious reason why US manufacturers are losing out to foreign competitors, the answer is to cut more of the workforce and cut more corners? i don't buy it. you gotta spend money to make money.

that's the problem with conservatism. it gets too distracted in irrelevant details and loses the big picture. mushroom does the same thing all the time.

hear hear about not blaming labor, danoota.


The BIG PICTURE is as follows:

1.  GM's quality stinks.  Part of that is product design, part of that is worker quality.  I know, because I have inspected automotive parts for both domestic producers as well as the Japanese.  (I have not inspected for European producers so I do not know the situation there)

2.  GM's product offering is poor.  Too much dependence on SUV and big truck.

3.  GM pays its people too much.

4.  GM has too many people.

Items 3 and 4... Not my "opinion" but rather objective FACTS as compared to the Japanese Transplant Operations.  That's not "blaming labor", that's looking at the FACTS.

When the GM/Ford COST OF PRODUCTION is already higher than that of the Japanese, and the QUALITY IS WORSE, how do you see it as "cutting corners"?

Product quality does not come from spending more money.  It comes from thoughtful design of the product and production line, and a disciplined work force.  You should get a copy of the document "The Toyota Production System" before you claim to equate workforce cuts with quality.

Note that when I mention "The Japanese", I refer to plants located here in the US of A that are mostly staffed with Americans.  And they buy their steel almost exclusively from American producers.  Good quality can be made in the USA by Americans.  It is being done every day at Toyota plants in Kentucky and Indiana.

Note:  The domestic airline industry has never cut as many people as they have in the past 3 years.  And domestic aviation is safer now than at any time in history.  Head count does NOT equal quality.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/15/06 at 3:02 pm

[quote author=Ły

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: LyricBoy on 01/15/06 at 7:44 pm


Sure, sure, while Uncle Sam bailed out the whole phony operation at taxpayers expense. 


Mind you, I was totally opposed to the US Government guaranteeing those loans that Chrysler took out in 1980.

But as it turns out, it was hardly "at taxpayer expense".  Chrysler paid back 100% of those loans, and as part of the loan deal, the US treasury received stock options which were redeemed for tens of millions of bucks.  The 1980 Chrysler Loan paid off for the US Government.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/15/06 at 8:37 pm

[quote author=Ły

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Mushroom on 01/16/06 at 7:05 pm

I am curious also as to what some of you think people shoud be making.

I know that in 1984, a local GM plant paid a starting wage of $18 an hour.  Within 1 year, that was normally increased to $20-25 an hour.  And remember, this was in 1984 money.

We have a Huyndai plant in a local town.  They make electronic assemblies for use in building cars.  Their starting wage is $18.  And unlike GM, they are non-union.

So are they being exploited?  I happen to know that for every opening, there are 5-10 people who apply.  ALmost every employee is a minority of some kind.

So what is a fair wage for unskilled labor who assembled prefabricated parts?  $10 an hour?  $50 an hour?  And how do you count their benefits?  Should it be considered part of their wage?

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/17/06 at 6:57 am


I am curious also as to what some of you think people shoud be making.

I know that in 1984, a local GM plant paid a starting wage of $18 an hour.  Within 1 year, that was normally increased to $20-25 an hour.  And remember, this was in 1984 money.

We have a Huyndai plant in a local town.  They make electronic assemblies for use in building cars.  Their starting wage is $18.  And unlike GM, they are non-union.

So are they being exploited?  I happen to know that for every opening, there are 5-10 people who apply.  ALmost every employee is a minority of some kind.

So what is a fair wage for unskilled labor who assembled prefabricated parts?  $10 an hour?  $50 an hour?  And how do you count their benefits?  Should it be considered part of their wage?


I believe wages/benefits should be tied into the cost of living, The congress sees fit to give itself cost of living raises, but does not feel that those working for the absolute minimum deserve the same consideration. This would be a regional index since the cost of living changes from area to area.  I also believe the minimum wage/benefit  should be coupled with a maximum wage/benefit.  People running a company should be charged with a fiduciary duty to the running of that company in a responsible way. Paying the upper echelon wages that far out distance the rank and file, and buy out packages such as the one seen in the Gillette takeover should be categorically denied. People lining up for jobs means that there are people out-of-work or underemployed(underpaid),  it doesn't necessarily mean the job is a great one.  I don't see the bearing on the ethnic status, unless figures show that minorities are not being hired elsewhere.  It does make one wonder where the non minorities are working and why they don't seem to have the same employment needs.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: La Sine Pesroh on 01/28/06 at 11:27 pm

[quote author=Ły

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: whistledog on 01/28/06 at 11:37 pm

Wasn't the 1989 Michael Moore documentary "Roger and Me" about General Motors and it's move from America to Mexico?

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/29/06 at 7:45 am


Fact check: Are American cars really that bad?



No, American cars are good.  I have never owned anything but, and I know many mechanics who are of the same mind.
Fashion and marketing rule the day, not facts.  People talk about wanting an SUV for safety when anyone with a modicum
of information knew that you were much better off in a full size station wagon than a ready to tip SUV..  How many would
admit that they ran out and bought theirs after the OJ freeway fiasco, but that is exactly what happened.  The sales of  SUVs
skyrocketed after that.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/29/06 at 7:46 am

[quote author=whis

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: LyricBoy on 01/29/06 at 8:41 pm


I believe wages/benefits should be tied into the cost of living, The congress sees fit to give itself cost of living raises, but does not feel that those working for the absolute minimum deserve the same consideration.


We had essentially that kind of system back in the 1970's and it eventually led to a runup in labor costs and overall prices.  I got a job offer in April 1979.  By June when I started I was already making $150/month more than my offer due to this nonsense, without ever having worked one day on the job!  ::)

Congress should also do away with this practice of giving itself COLA raises.  ::)

This whole "COLA Adjustment" mentality is being ressurected now in th early 2000's, as producers have started adding all sorts of "fuel surcharges" and "metlas price surcharges" and electricity surcharges" to their product prices.  It sets the stage for sloppy cost control and it is dangerous.  ::)

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/30/06 at 12:10 am

[quote author=whis

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: whistledog on 01/30/06 at 12:12 am


Yes, and it is something you really should see, it is his best work.


I saw it many years ago in High School as part of my Englush Media class.  It was a good film :)

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Skippy on 01/30/06 at 3:54 am

While it may be true the Big 3's cars aren't that bad many others are better, equally priced and with better warranties. Why buy Ripple if I can get Chateau Lafite at the same price? American cars should always be less expensive than imports. Price gouging started in the 80's when tariffs were raised on imports in an attempt to boost domestic sales. People saw the better quality of the foreign autos and bought them anyway. The Big 3, in there reasoning, thought that if the consumer is willing to pay more for foreign autos they would pay more for domestic. I think what's further killed the auto industry in the U.S. is management's inability or downright refusal to notice changing market trends and have the ability to act quickly on them.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/30/06 at 11:00 am


What we're about to see is a "Roger & Me" for Ford.  Ford plans to layoff 30,000 workers in the U.S.  The knee-jerk right-wing news media is already blaming the workers.  The damn American auto workers are loyal to the union, not loyal to the company, the greedy American workers want health care, pensions, and a decent standard of living shame on the, shame, shame, shame!

Henry Ford is spinning in his grave.  Even Henry Ford--anti-semitic, nazi-loving petty little tinkerer that he was--knew you had to pay American workers a decent wage so they could afford to be FORD cars...but that was your great-grandfather's Ford!
::)


With all the complaints about wages and benefits paid to American workers, I wonder how many of its' emloyees will be laid of in their
Volvo plants in Sweden?  I wonder how many Volvo owners are going to start saying "I own a Ford" .  I have actually started saying
to owners "nice Ford", they take offense    ;D

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/30/06 at 7:38 pm


Correction:  Ford is laying off 30,000 workers in North America.  One of the plants that is closing is in Canada and 1 or 2 in Mexico.

I've had quite a few Fords and they have been more reliable than the 2 GM's I've owned.  Most of the problems I've had with Fords have been minor:  squeaky windows, bad weatherstripping, etc.  The 2 GM's I've owned were in the shop no less than 3 times in the first 3 months for various problems:  oil pressure problems, leaky exhaust system, leaky windows, fried AC/heater fan (fried in the 2nd month and was replaced a total of 4 times over the 2 years I owned the car), flaking paint (which they refused to fix, even though it was peeling off on a car that was <2 years old).  Hubby's had multiple Nissan's and the only problem he's had (with all of them) is a bad exhaust sensor.  It all comes down to quality.

So? All cars have problems.  I've never had a car that didn't have its own set of problems.  Just feel grateful you have a car.  Feel overprivileged if you have two or three.  More people than not in this world scramble each day to get enough food and potable water.  They can't conceive of complaining about squeaky windows and bad weatherstripping!
::)
Oh, so so of the workers are Canadian and Mexican.  They're not Americans, so what do we care?  Certainly theres never been a temptation with jobless Mexicans crossing the border to find work in America.
I think America's grand economic strategy agaiinst immigration from Latin America is to turn the U.S. into a giant version of Hondurus.  Then there will be no incentive for immigrants to cross the rio grande!

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 01/31/06 at 6:56 am



   
I guess I'll just keep my rich, white, elitist, overprivileged, female mouth shut (since you've made that perfectly clear that's what you think of me as).  At least THEN you won't jump all over everything I say ::)



Oh don't do that.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: La Sine Pesroh on 01/31/06 at 10:46 am


So? All cars have problems.  I've never had a car that didn't have its own set of problems.  Just feel grateful you have a car.  Feel overprivileged if you have two or three.  More people than not in this world scramble each day to get enough food and potable water.  They can't conceive of complaining about squeaky windows and bad weatherstripping!
::)
Hell, I'm grateful to live in this particular time and place in human history, if for no other reason that I get the privilege of driving a car. (Air conditioning is a close second.)  One thing that I find frightening is that China is becoming more and more affluent, and a lot of them are going through their first love affairs with cars as well. While I think it's great that more and more people are getting to enjoy our high standard of living, I also know that in the not-too-far distant future, China's increased fuel consumption will put a huge strain on an already finite resource (not to mention accelerate the environmental consequences).
    Having said that, I see nothing wrong with sweating over the smaller details of automobiles. While I think that the majority of domestic cars have for the most part caught up (and in some cases, even surpassed) their foreign counterparts in terms of reliability, many of them still lag behind in terms of refinement.  A new (or even used) vehicle is a major investment for the vast majority of people in this country, and I don't see why someone shouldn't demand the absolute highest levels of quality and refinement in the vehicle that they've just spent their hard-earned money on. Anymore, most new cars and trucks, whether foreign or domestic, come with the expectation that they should give you years of trouble-free use, provided you do the regularly scheduled maintenance and you don't abuse them.  And if something does go wrong anyway (whether it's a major or minor problem), I think a person is perfectly within their right to be upset about it.  (What this has to do with the Third World, I have no idea. Are you being anal just for the sake of being anal?  ::))
Oh, so so of the workers are Canadian and Mexican.  They're not Americans, so what do we care?  Certainly theres never been a temptation with jobless Mexicans crossing the border to find work in America.
I think America's grand economic strategy agaiinst immigration from Latin America is to turn the U.S. into a giant version of Hondurus.  Then there will be no incentive for immigrants to cross the rio grande!
Ford has a plant right here in Kansas City (in the suburb of Claycomo), and I'd much rather see a plant in Mexico close down, where they only pay their workers $2/hour and the plants exist for no other reason than to circumvent all of the benefits and protections that the unions fought so hard for, than to see local union workers lose their jobs, which would certainly hurt the local economy. (Thankfully the Claycomo plant was spared this most recent round of layoffs.) As far as Canada goes, their auto workers are union too (CAW), and I hate to see anyone lose a good-paying union job, whether they're Canadian or American.  I don't know if I could handle being a UAW worker, where they've got to be constantly worrying about whether or not they'll still have their job tomorrow, or next month, or next year.
   As far as your "grand economic strategy," well, I think you might be on to something there.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: STAR70 on 01/31/06 at 5:11 pm

ANOTHER NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF GM

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-01-11-china-cars-usat_x.htm

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: Skippy on 02/01/06 at 3:13 am


    A new (or even used) vehicle is a major investment for the vast majority of people in this country, and I don't see why someone shouldn't demand the absolute highest levels of quality and refinement in the vehicle that they've just spent their hard-earned money on. Anymore, most new cars and trucks, whether foreign or domestic, come with the expectation that they should give you years of trouble-free use, provided you do the regularly scheduled maintenance and you don't abuse them.  And if something does go wrong anyway (whether it's a major or minor problem), I think a person is perfectly within their right to be upset about it.



I've always owned used cars and I do my own maintenence on them. I also don't buy a car that I can't can't pay for fully. It's no problem to get over 200,000 miles out of most cars built from the mid 80's and up with proper care. They've all developed little annoyances and I tend to ignore them if they aren't detrimental to safety or operation. Eventually I will research the problem and fix it. I figure since I'm the one using it, I should be the one most likely to know what's wrong.
It doesn't upset me nearly as much to put a little bit into a used a car as it would if it was new and I was still making payments, but then most new car repairs should be covered under warranty. What does get me riled is when Junior behind the counter hasn't a clue as to what I want so I can fix my car, even after I tell him what it is, what it's for and give him a part number.

Subject: Re: Who killed General Motors?

Written By: danootaandme on 02/01/06 at 6:27 am


I've always owned used cars and I do my own maintenence on them. I also don't buy a car that I can't can't pay for fully. It's no problem to get over 200,000 miles out of most cars built from the mid 80's and up with proper care. They've all developed little annoyances and I tend to ignore them if they aren't detrimental to safety or operation. Eventually I will research the problem and fix it. I figure since I'm the one using it, I should be the one most likely to know what's wrong.
It doesn't upset me nearly as much to put a little bit into a used a car as it would if it was new and I was still making payments, but then most new car repairs should be covered under warranty. What does get me riled is when Junior behind the counter hasn't a clue as to what I want so I can fix my car, even after I tell him what it is, what it's for and give him a part number.


I'm with you, brother  ;)

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