And why should this God fellow help you instead of some starving African child who's been orphaned by AIDS? Are you worthier than those kids? That's the big question (or at least one of them) that I have... Why does it seem that God only helps rich Westerners? And when I say rich, I mean in comparison to a starving african child orphaned by AIDS.

McDonald, why do I get the hard question. I'm just a regular guy on the board.  ;)
Good question and I

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof.

McDonald, why do I get the hard question. I'm just a regular guy on the board.  ;)

Because you choose to believe... and have tried to justify your beliefs here.  Which is no bad thing.  But can you see why people like me find it so frustrating: where I see things happening by chance, some people being rich, healthy and lucky throughout their lives when millions more seem to be without riches, health or any kind of luck whatsoever... we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f*** about the majority of the population.  Bearing in mind that the poorest and most needy are the ones who usually have the strongest faith...


I simply invited God into my life and when I did, things improved.

ISTM that it's more to do with you, and your attitude to life, than anything any kind of God is doing.


I don’t know about you but I’m a father with one kid and maybe you have kids or you don’t but you may be able to ponder this thought. If you could rescue that starving suffering child, and many more, but the only way was to sacrifice your own child by putting him or her to death, but in doing so it would save multitudes, would you do it? I wouldn’t. I know I wouldn’t. But that’s what the bible says God did with Jesus, so it leads me to believe that He cares more for us and the world than we can comprehend.

Yes, I do have children of my own: all I can say about this is that I'd need 100% proof positive that my child's death would save multitudes before I'd give it a second thought... and even then I couldn't guarantee an answer... and the bible may say God did that, but I'm afraid that cuts absolutely zero ice with me: the bible says a bucketload of other stuff, too, a lot of which you *really* wouldn't like to see happen.



Hey Philbo, I was referring more to nice manners/etiqutte when I said it wasn't very nice, & that it's judgemental to pick on a faith or the people that have that faith, but maybe I'm reading into it wrong, and that's my problem.

I try not to be judgmental in that I don't want to make judgments about a person's morals or character based on their faith or religion; but I do try and question that faith, basically 'cause I find the premises on which all theistic faiths are based totally unsatisfying in terms of their explanations of the world around us.


And what's the worse that can happen to me if I believe in God or don't believe in God? one of 2 things will happen:
1) If I believe in God and die, and  there is no God, then I'm dead, done, the end,  But if I'm right & God is real , then there's heaven and unimaginable love & goodness, no pain, no tears, no depression, no sadness, no fear. 
2) If I don't believe in God and die, and there is no God, then I'm simply dead, done, the end. But if I was wrong, & God is real, the unfortunate result is hell. whatever that is, but it's not in Gods presence, that's for sure. So the best choice for me is to believe, since it’s better or equal either way.'   

That's basically Pascal's Wager. If you get down to the bottom of the page, please let me know...


I don't need logic, science, or reason to provide facts and prove God exists beyond all reasonable doubt.  I just believe it.

I'm not talking about proof beyond all reasonable doubt, I'm talking about providing even the faintest speck of a suggestion that there actually is a God out there, let alone one who gives a fig for humanity.  Logic, science and reason all point to there being no god whatsoever.

That's basically Pascal's Wager. If you get down to the bottom of the page, please let me know...
I'm not talking about proof beyond all reasonable doubt, I'm talking about providing even the faintest speck of a suggestion that there actually is a God out there, let alone one who gives a fig for humanity.  Logic, science and reason all point to there being no god whatsoever.


Pascal's wager seemed appropriate to make things simple, but it can easily be rejected as a load of crap.
What kind of proof would make someone reconsider?  Or are people's minds so firm and opinionated that even real proof would be rejected. I don't know. A physical appearance may be proof, but really, what kinds of proof does a person of sound logic and reason need to believe in God?
and logic, science, and reason is limited as to how much info it can provide us.  For instance, using sound logic, science, and reason,  take me back to the beginning of time to when things(the universe) as we know it began, has it been prooved in any way by these means or simply theorized. prove what actually started it all. was there a time when there absolutely nothing? Or did this universe just exist. that takes faith to believe, but what happened that got it going?

Why on Earth would a being so much more advanced, mature and intelligent than ourselves do something that even I as a human see is bull-headed and wrong.  That being having a "hell". 

Even if I ever believe in a higher power, I could NEVER see myself believing in Hell.

Why on Earth would a being so much more advanced, mature and intelligent than ourselves do something that even I as a human see is bull-headed and wrong.  That being having a "hell". 

Even if I ever believe in a higher power, I could NEVER see myself believing in Hell.


Here's why I don't believe in Heaven or Hell:

1. The Earth/Universe can be Heaven or Hell if you make it so
2. It makes more sense that they were invented to control people's behavior than that they actually exist
3. Nobody truly deserves either, and a good God wouldn't allow anyone to burn in eternal Hell, and if Hell doesn't exist neither does Heaven
4. There is no real reason that punishment should exist after death

So, you're saying that the ONLY way to "Heaven" is by believing in God?  What about those who have never heard of him, but lead a good life?  What about those who have, may not believe, but live a good life?  Are you saying that they will end up in hell?


See, this is one of the MAJOR problems I have with Christianity....and the Bible is totally contradictory in explaining "how to get to Heaven".....one part says that the only was is to accept Jesus/God into your heart....another says that you can get there based on your works alone....yet another says that you must do both.  I believe that there is a "Heaven" and "Hell", but I don't believe that there is any ONE way to get to either.....and I think your actions have more to do with it than your faith in God/Jesus (which is not the "widely accepted" view).
Lots of tough issues crazymom. When you say lead a good life, it's good compared to who? There probably should be some sort of standard otherwise all 6.5 billion of us on the planet could have our own idea of what is good. Biblically, God is the standard of good, and all fall short of that standard. I know so many good people, friends and family that are basically good and it does make it hard for me to accept hell for them, because they're really good people. Hell is described as seperation from God. There's a passage in the bible where it's taken into account that some people will never hear the message of salvation but that God will judge their hearts based on how they acted/behaved and I don't recall reading that or understanding that before. But for those that have heard and refuse to believe, the result is the very unpopular Hell. The idea of hell doesn't go over too well these days.
As for works, your works or life is a result of salvation, not the cause of it.  People will know you're a believer by the life you lead so your works justify you and declare you a believer.

Also I'd like to say you shouldn't take criticism of your religion personally.  Shepherd thinks I'm a loony leftie in regards to a lot of my political beliefs but I don't get upset about it.  Its not a shot at me as a person, its just at beliefs I subscribe to.  Its like if someone makes fun of a person for being a Clippers fan, they aren't really insulting them.  They just think the Clippers suck.




but you see, my faith/religion means a lot more to me than let's say, comparing it to a favorite actor of mine. If someone were to say to me, "ya know, I really think that Mark Ruffalo is full of crap and sucks as an actor"...then fine, I am not going to take personal offense to it....but on the other hand, if someone says things to me mocking the religion that I fully believe in and make a very pertinent part of my life, then yes, I am going to get offended. I don't expect you to understand it though because it is a very personal thing, IMO...and if you don't believe in it, then you cannot fully grasp how it feels.



Sorry, but I have to take exception to this remark: where did he insult what you believe?  He questioned it, sure, but "insult"?  No.



I beg to differ but yes, IMO, he did insult it.  If someone were to come out and make a statement saying, "All atheists are bad people are are doomed to hell".....yes, that is considered to be an opinion, but I also think that it is an insulting statement toward people who happen to be atheists.  The same goes for the statements that he said concerning my beliefs in Christianity...they may have only been his opinions, but they were insulting...and if I my religion is something that is personal to me, than why wouldn't I take it personally, as an insult?

Alternatively, could it possibly be that because where you happen to live is so overwhelmingly Christian, there simply isn't any other religion to attack?  Why is it that these great monotheistic religions with their all-powerful deities are so touchy about criticism and fun being poked at them? 


Maybe because more people have died in the name of "Religion" then any other cause.

Religion is a very personal issue, and I take offense whenever any religion is attacked and slandered.  And I have defended both people of the Jewish and Muslim faith in here, even though that is not my religion.

I am not a fundamentalist in any sense.  But when somebody makes a deeply personal attack, I will defend them.  To me, making crude or insensitive attacks against somebodies choice of religion is no better then attacking their wife or kids.  There is simply no excuse for it, and I will speak out against people like that.

To me attacking somebody for their religion (or their religion itself) is no different then attacking somebody for their race, it is ignorant and deserving of my contempt.

I think it's bull$hit that believers in Christianity pretend they alone own the religion.


Be careful, you are stereotyping people when you make a statement like that.

Next time, try "some believers", it is much more accurate and truthfull.  Trying to group everybody in a group to fit your view of them is wrong.

To me attacking somebody for their religion (or their religion itself) is no different then attacking somebody for their race, it is ignorant and deserving of my contempt.

To me, it is quite the opposite: attacking someone because of their race is narrow-minded and usually just plain stupid.  A person's race is something they're born into, and have no way of changing; there are no race-based generalizations that actually hold true, so there isn't anything to attack.

Religion, OTOH, is something you choose to believe.  Of course, there is a difference between attacking someone because of their religion and attacking the religion itself.  The problem that I (and some other atheistic types here) have is that too many religious people construe an attack on their religion as a personal attack on them.  But if they want to go round believing in ridiculous sky-faeries and mindless idiocies, then let them: but what seriously pisses me off is when a religion that has a long history of intolerance and suppression of any divergent opinion starts crying foul when a tiny minority try pointing out how just plain implausible and mutually contradictory its basic tenets are.

To me, it is quite the opposite: attacking someone because of their race is narrow-minded and usually just plain stupid.  A person's race is something they're born into, and have no way of changing; there are no race-based generalizations that actually hold true, so there isn't anything to attack.

Religion, OTOH, is something you choose to believe.  Of course, there is a difference between attacking someone because of their religion and attacking the religion itself.  The problem that I (and some other atheistic types here) have is that too many religious people construe an attack on their religion as a personal attack on them.  But if they want to go round believing in ridiculous sky-faeries and mindless idiocies, then let them: but what seriously pisses me off is when a religion that has a long history of intolerance and suppression of any divergent opinion starts crying foul when a tiny minority try pointing out how just plain implausible and mutually contradictory its basic tenets are.


I could kiss you.  Karma+1

There is simply no excuse for it, and I will speak out against people like that.



You know whats funny about that?  How little I care.

Jesus Christ: False prophet, Liar, and Fraud:
he had no powers
the "virgin" mary was afraid of getting beat up by joseph for doin it with some other guy so she said he was the sun of god and that he was immaculate.  
The Jesus in urine amd Mary in cow dung exhibits
Until I see a Danish government-approved cartoon of Jesus giving a donkey a BJ
we know more about how basically silly and inconsistent Christianity is
I know I hate it
We can make fun of it all we want it's ours to make fun of
now that we finally have the freedom and legal protection to be blasphemous
some of the utter twaddle they'll accept as true
God only helps rich Westerners
God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***
let alone one who gives a fig for humanity
believing in ridiculous sky-faeries and mindless idiocies

Other than the above ridicule and mocking and jesting, and jeering,  I went back and read thru all the posts and conclude that the members who posted their views for why not to believe, made some good points, and arguments against. They had some serious questions, and weren't quite as insultive as I originally thought. They presented good reasons and shared personal experiences for why they feel the way they do towards christianity , Jesus and His followers. I feel less defensive after careful reading and hope for equal treatment for the others who are on the other side of this topic that have a sincere belief in Jesus and shared our reasons, and whether they don't hold water with anyone or convince anybody to change is ok. We all get to enjoy freedom of speech, religion, freewill to think and believe as we choose.  8)

I could kiss you.  Karma+1
this is non-topic, but excellent pic Alex of those Fabulous Furry Freak brothers   :)

this is non-topic, but excellent pic Alex of those Fabulous Furry Freak brothers   :)


Thanks 8)

My uncle told me about them so I found this pic.  He told me his favorite one was the one where it showed two of them sitting in their apartment, in black and white, cobwebs in the corners, the posters curled up at the edges, boards sticking up, and the third one burts in and says "I got it!" and the room starts going back to color, the cobwebs dissappear, the posters start straightening themselves out LOL ;D

Hi Badfinger fan,

I was just glancing at the 'recent posts' listing ... looks like this post is a very hot topic (to me). I haven't bothered to read the other posts yet (but I will later!). However, it was yours which caught my eye. Seem to remember you're from California? Guess I'm a little surprised by your comments, as I have this idea that the vast majority of Americans are quite religious/strongly Christian.

I used to go to 'Sunday school' as a kid. My father was an atheist, my mum, somebody who wants to believe in God. Guess she thought it would be good for me.  Myself, I wasn't too sure what to make of it all. For a while there, I sought of believed. When my father commited suicide, it became harder to believe. Years later, I went to live in the USA, & my life was so happy. Things started to come together in a big way, & I sort of believed my dad was 'up there' pulling some strings for me. When it all fell apart, & I had to return to England, I wasn't so sure.

Here's what you said:

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***

Over the years, as I've thought more and more about what goes on in the world, I've become increasingly sceptical about the whole thing. For a number of years there, I thought of myself as an agnostic ... somebody sitting on the fence, trying to have an each way bet. Probably for the last decade or two, I've become a firm atheist, and am convinced that conventional religion is a crock of ****.

When you really think about it, there's so many reasons NOT to believe.

1. Babies born with handicaps. Why? Is the baby being punished? The parents?  (Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

2. Babies that are 'still-born'. What was the point of the whole exercise. Also, do they now automatically go to heaven, whilst the rest of us have to earn our ways there through maybe a 100 years or so of various tests of our worthiness?  So how do they get this favouritism. Or is the mother being punished. Was the baby just a 'prop' in 'God's' plan? 

(Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

3. The 'World Trade Center' bastardry ... . So many fine people wiped out as though they were mere cockroaches. Intelligent, ambitious etc; etc; .. who knows what plans many of them had. There may have been the odd person amongst them that 'God' didn't want around ... so thousands of good people had to go? Then there's all the families/friends grief, children who've lost parents ... all these people whose lives are torn apart forever. Myself, fortunately I knew nobody involved personally. But like many spectators around the world, I was stunned/shocked/appalled/ ..ANGRY  >:( >:( >:( >:(  as hell !!! (if such a place existed .... maybe this is it?).  The world has changed since 9/11. Our mortality has been brought home big time, not to mention the impermanence of our monuments. As Kansas once sang, 'All we are is dust in the wind'.  Millions/billions of years from now, the sun will become a red giant, envelop the earth, and incinerate any remaining 'monuments' we might have erected. We really are insignificant in this mind bogglingly immense universe.

So why did the 'World Trade Centre' / other major disasters around the world  happen  to so many innocent people?

( Ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

Where was 'God' in all this? Spectating helplessly? He's in a battle with the devil, and like Superman, his resources are over-taxed, he can't be everywhere at once, so the devil won this one ..... and all those other one's with the still-borns/handicapped, etc; etc. Maybe he had more important things to do, like take sides with a sportsman who invokes god, thanks him afterwards for helping him beat his opponents ( what a joke ....!). >:(

You know, when you really think about it, this famous riddle by an ancient greek called epicurus sums it up:

The Riddle of Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


Why do we have god? Here's my thoughts. In pre-history when cave men were about, they couldn't make sense of the elements, which they were at the mercy of. Lightning, earthquakes, stars, birth, death ... so much wonderous/mysterious. A huge hostile world. So like children they conjured up something beyond themselves, which they felt they needed to appease, through sacrifices, prayer,temples etc.  Years later when conventional religions were established, the corrupt church hierarchy saw it as a way of controlling the masses. When you're rich/powerful, you can keep the poorer/downtrodden at bay by the dogma. Let them think that they will be rewarded in heaven, the after-life. Ah yes, rellgion.. the 'opiate of the masses'.

Persecute/torture, boil alive those who disagree with your version of religion ... the 'heretics'. What a load of nonsense, that the god of christianity is the real one, not the one of Islam. So, you're a good person, do everything right, but don't go to heaven because you believed in the wrong god? What about if you were born on a desert island, never heard of any religions? Do you go to heaven?
What's heaven like? Are we going to be hanging about with the cavemen too (& all other eras?). Will your dog be there? If you were happily married to 3 wives who also had other husbands, who's going to be with who? What if you loved somebody, but they went to hell. How heavenly will heaven be for you without them? How old will you be?

Back to why we invented god. Self-preservation. Survival! ... which we as human beings have as our number one bit of programming. Procreation is one form of this . We can't get past the idea that afterwards is an eternal nothing. We learn all this information in our lives, become so smart, for it only to be wiped out on a personal level? No, it can't be. So we clutch at straws. Our egos can't handle it. You might as well believe in the 'tooth fairy' as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's kind of ironic that the comedian 'Dave Allen', whose religious jokes I enjoyed a lot, died about the same time as Pope John Paul II. I wonder if that pope and he are enjoying a joke together (I doubt it). Dave was always taking the piss out of the popes in his  sketches. I think he got it right when he observed, 'why would you want to go heaven & sit around listening to harp music all day? Let me go to hell where they have wild women/action etc' (not a quote, just the gist).

I know there's a lot of holes in the 'big-bang' theory and other non- god explanations of how we got here. Nobody can give the definitive answer at this stage. S