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Subject: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: saver on 09/02/06 at 11:48 pm

You have to admire this man


 



                                     



Looks like New Orleans is waking people up. Cosby is shaking their bed again.





"We Can't Blame White People"

Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:23:29 EDT

by BILL COSBY

"They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English.  I can't even talk the way these people talk:

Why you ain't,

Where you is,

What he drive,

Where he stay,

Where he work,

Who you be...

And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.  And then I heard the father talk.

Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth.

In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living. People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around.

The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal.

These people are not parenting.  They are buying things for kids. $500 sneakers for what?  And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.  I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.

Where were you when he was 2?  Where were you when he was 12?  Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol?  And where is the father?  Or who is his father?

People putting their clothes on backward: Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong?

People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something?  Or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up? Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of needles going through her body?

What part of Africa did this come from?  We are not Africans.  Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa .  With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail.

Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.

We have got to take the neighborhood back.

People used to be ashamed.  Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' -- or men or whatever you call them now. We have millionaire football players who cannot read.

We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs.  We as black folks have to do a better job.  Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us.

We have to start holding each other to a higher standard. We cannot blame the white people any longer."










Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/03/06 at 7:30 am

The answer lies deep within the text of Cosby's speech.

Blame Wal-Mart.  ;D ;D ;D

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/03/06 at 12:24 pm

Where do you buy a pair of $500 sneakers?
???

Mr. Cosby sounds like he gets his talking points from the RNC.  This is sloganeering and stereotyping.  It does not address the roots of economic racism.  It doesn not even approach discussion of the true causes of poverty among blacks...or whites, or anybody else.  It's jus the old right-wing shuck of blaming and shaming.

I wish this was an urban legend, just like the last piece of racist bile Mr. Saver posted...but it's not.  Let's take the names game.  Blacks loved Mr. Cosby for forty years.  African-Americans watched his televison programs, bought his records, bought the Coca-Cola and Jell-o Pudding Pops he pedaled, and helped make Mr. Cosby a multi-multi-multi-millionaire.  He rewards them with this kind of hatred:
"With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail."

a. It is only a tinyl percentage of the African-American population that is in jail.  Mr. Cosby knows this.  Ann Coulter made the same racist remark about Afrocentric-sounding names, "How many boys named Jamal are on death row?" I dunno Ann, how many boys named John are on death row?
b. Mohammed is one of the most (if not the most) common male-given name in the world.  What's "crap" about that?  Got a problem with Muslims too, Bill?
c. Mr. Cosby asserted about the same time last year that the Afrocentric names hurt the chances for success of the men and women who bear them.  Funny names is it?  There are lily-white youths in elite prep schools with names such as Piper, Dakota, Tapley-Ann, McKenzie, Tomato Joplin, and Riverchild.  They seem to do just fine in life.

Vulgarity, coarseness, and ignorance are not exclusive to "ghetto" culture.  The dull-minded, foul-mouthed, pornographic, and socially-retarded nature of white America would make your head spin.  I'm not talking about Jeff Foxworthy's white America.  I am talking about the white America of wealth and privilege.  Look at "Girls Gone Wild."  'That black, huh, Mr. Cosby?  Those bawling jocks downing vodka and those dizzy blondes flashing their breasts on Cancun spring break are not just like that on spring break.  It's a short trip from your Shelbourne Falls compound down to Amherst, Mr. Cosby. I invite you to come down any Friday night, I will show you white popular culture every bit as crass.  Talk to the same college students at 10:00 a.m.  You will find them wholely uninterested in intellectual pursuit and incurious about the world around them.  Our president, George W. Bush, for whom you voted, Mr. Cosby, is a prime example.  It's nothing new.  However, it has gotten much worse, as has black popular culture, in the past couple of decades.  Yet somehow these same white kids go on to climb the corporate ranks, buy big suburban homes, and raise their 2.5 kids.  Why is that, Mr Cosby?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nixweiss.gif

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/03/06 at 12:43 pm

Of course Cosby's opinion as a black man does not count for anything.  I mean, after all, he came up in the ghettos and worked his way to the top.  Clearly this means he is right wing, a sell out, an "Oreo" if you will.  Shame on him for having a viewpoint.  Just because he made it out of the ghetto and worked to get an education does not give him the right to opine about these matters.  It is obvious to everybody.

Bill should be held up as the enemy, as he strongly believes in personal accountability (despite of course a few peccadillos), the value of education, and the need to pull yourself up, as well as the basic civil rights that he has supported over the years.

I certainly hope that Bill as an educated, successful black man learns that he still has to express the stereotyped political position that is expected of him.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/03/06 at 5:15 pm

I think all Americans are stupid and deserve to be eaten by the bastard child of a 26-headed hydra and Joan Rivers. As are all French (dirty, pompous...), Germans (too efficient for my taste), Israelis (honey, they're goyim at heart, obsessed with war), Chinese, Japanese, Zimbabweans, Lithuanians, Latvians, Moroccans, Moldovans, Swiss, Cameroonians, Pakistanis, Tobagans, and Bolivians. I believe in death; it is my primary religion. I believe in murder, crime, chaos, and apple pie.

I also happen to think nobody is right. White culture and black culture are very stupid at this point. Young people are no stupider than their parents, who are giant sell-outs. We need a massive stupidity cleansing program involving stupid farms where Americans are sent to be de-programmed of fratboy binge drinking and violent rap music. Or else, like Rome, we shall burn in our own accumulated vomit and blood, our slaves taking over and drinking and reconfiguring our culture.

Ah, America! Ye are like a great tree, plugged and bricked, masturbating with its branches, and with a belly-button job for the hole in its center, where a bald Republican owl lives. I want to slap George W. Bush and 50 Cent with a giant piece of rancid steak and some starving children. Where's your policy and bling bling now? I wish I were born 80 years earlier.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Tanya1976 on 09/03/06 at 6:53 pm


Where do you buy a pair of $500 sneakers?
???

Mr. Cosby sounds like he gets his talking points from the RNC.  This is sloganeering and stereotyping.  It does not address the roots of economic racism.  It doesn not even approach discussion of the true causes of poverty among blacks...or whites, or anybody else.  It's jus the old right-wing shuck of blaming and shaming.

I wish this was an urban legend, just like the last piece of racist bile Mr. Saver posted...but it's not.  Let's take the names game.   Blacks loved Mr. Cosby for forty years.  African-Americans watched his televison programs, bought his records, bought the Coca-Cola and Jell-o Pudding Pops he pedaled, and helped make Mr. Cosby a multi-multi-multi-millionaire.  He rewards them with this kind of hatred:
"With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail."

a. It is only a tinyl percentage of the African-American population that is in jail.  Mr. Cosby knows this.  Ann Coulter made the same racist remark about Afrocentric-sounding names, "How many boys named Jamal are on death row?" I dunno Ann, how many boys named John are on death row?
b. Mohammed is one of the most (if not the most) common male-given name in the world.  What's "crap" about that?  Got a problem with Muslims too, Bill?
c. Mr. Cosby asserted about the same time last year that the Afrocentric names hurt the chances for success of the men and women who bear them.  Funny names is it?  There are lily-white youths in elite prep schools with names such as Piper, Dakota, Tapley-Ann, McKenzie, Tomato Joplin, and Riverchild.  They seem to do just fine in life.

Vulgarity, coarseness, and ignorance are not exclusive to "ghetto" culture.  The dull-minded, foul-mouthed, pornographic, and socially-retarded nature of white America would make your head spin.  I'm not talking about Jeff Foxworthy's white America.  I am talking about the white America of wealth and privilege.  Look at "Girls Gone Wild."  'That black, huh, Mr. Cosby?  Those bawling jocks downing vodka and those dizzy blondes flashing their breasts on Cancun spring break are not just like that on spring break.  It's a short trip from your Shelbourne Falls compound down to Amherst, Mr. Cosby. I invite you to come down any Friday night, I will show you white popular culture every bit as crass.  Talk to the same college students at 10:00 a.m.  You will find them wholely uninterested in intellectual pursuit and incurious about the world around them.  Our president, George W. Bush, for whom you voted, Mr. Cosby, is a prime example.  It's nothing new.  However, it has gotten much worse, as has black popular culture, in the past couple of decades.  Yet somehow these same white kids go on to climb the corporate ranks, buy big suburban homes, and raise their 2.5 kids.  Why is that, Mr Cosby?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nixweiss.gif



He tends to overgeneralize an entire group of people, which is quite unfortunate. As he preaches, he tends to forget the things he's done (e.g. extramarital affairs). Quite frankly, Mr. Cosby has some things he needs to address as well.


Of course Cosby's opinion as a black man does not count for anything.  I mean, after all, he came up in the ghettos and worked his way to the top.  Clearly this means he is right wing, a sell out, an "Oreo" if you will.  Shame on him for having a viewpoint.  Just because he made it out of the ghetto and worked to get an education does not give him the right to opine about these matters.  It is obvious to everybody.

Bill should be held up as the enemy, as he strongly believes in personal accountability (despite of course a few peccadillos), the value of education, and the need to pull yourself up, as well as the basic civil rights that he has supported over the years.

I certainly hope that Bill as an educated, successful black man learns that he still has to express the stereotyped political position that is expected of him.


He has a right to his opinion, no doubt. But he also should help those who cannot make it to college (as he tends to do). I came from the same area (North Philly) that he was born and raised. He's hardly there, except to speak at the commencements of Temple (which included mine).

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/03/06 at 7:51 pm


Of course Cosby's opinion as a black man does not count for anything.  I mean, after all, he came up in the ghettos and worked his way to the top.  Clearly this means he is right wing, a sell out, an "Oreo" if you will.  Shame on him for having a viewpoint.  Just because he made it out of the ghetto and worked to get an education does not give him the right to opine about these matters.  It is obvious to everybody.

Bill should be held up as the enemy, as he strongly believes in personal accountability (despite of course a few peccadillos), the value of education, and the need to pull yourself up, as well as the basic civil rights that he has supported over the years.

I certainly hope that Bill as an educated, successful black man learns that he still has to express the stereotyped political position that is expected of him.

No, no, no, no, and no again.

The Right still suffers from the old Horatio Alger delusion.  You cannot replace all factors of sociology, history, economics, and culture with one man's personal narrative.  The Right uses success stories such as Bill Cosby's not as inspiration, but as justification of p*ss-poor social policies. 
It's like saying because Einstein was a German Jew, all German Jews can become great physicists--if they'd only just apply themselves a little more!

I don't dismiss all of Cosby's points.  I think he does care.  He is angry about the state affairs in black communities.  Again the problem is the shame and blame speech.  His rhetoric is counterproductive.  It bolsters white prejudice and insults black people. There is a a worldwide myth that shame is a positive force for social change.  It isn't and it never will be.  Cosby is a highly educated and thoughtful man.  I was shocked at the tone he took.  He's smart enough to know better. 

I don't think Mr. Cosby is an "Oreo cookie" because puts down poor black people.  We are often hurtful to the ones we love and to the ones with whom we identify.  Critics such as Michael Eric Dyson and Jesse Jackson understood this, but the media just dismisses them as apologists for the bad things black people do.  Cosby is right.  It does a black youth no good to always blame the white man.  His critics are right too.  There is such a thing as racism and reasons other than lack of "personal responsibility" why blacks have a harder time succeeding than whites.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/03/06 at 8:12 pm


I think all Americans are stupid and deserve to be eaten by the bastard child of a 26-headed hydra and Joan Rivers. As are all French (dirty, pompous...), Germans (too efficient for my taste), Israelis (honey, they're goyim at heart, obsessed with war), Chinese, Japanese, Zimbabweans, Lithuanians, Latvians, Moroccans, Moldovans, Swiss, Cameroonians, Pakistanis, Tobagans, and Bolivians. I believe in death; it is my primary religion. I believe in murder, crime, chaos, and apple pie.

I also happen to think nobody is right. White culture and black culture are very stupid at this point. Young people are no stupider than their parents, who are giant sell-outs. We need a massive stupidity cleansing program involving stupid farms where Americans are sent to be de-programmed of fratboy binge drinking and violent rap music. Or else, like Rome, we shall burn in our own accumulated vomit and blood, our slaves taking over and drinking and reconfiguring our culture.

Ah, America! Ye are like a great tree, plugged and bricked, masturbating with its branches, and with a belly-button job for the hole in its center, where a bald Republican owl lives. I want to slap George W. Bush and 50 Cent with a giant piece of rancid steak and some starving children. Where's your policy and bling bling now? I wish I were born 80 years earlier.


Actually my Dad was born 80 years earlier and he had to put up with WW1, WW2, the depression, and so on.

Life sux no matter when you're born.  :-\\

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/03/06 at 8:14 pm


I think all Americans are stupid and deserve to be eaten by the bastard child of a 26-headed hydra and Joan Rivers. As are all French (dirty, pompous...), Germans (too efficient for my taste), Israelis (honey, they're goyim at heart, obsessed with war), Chinese, Japanese, Zimbabweans, Lithuanians, Latvians, Moroccans, Moldovans, Swiss, Cameroonians, Pakistanis, Tobagans, and Bolivians. I believe in death; it is my primary religion. I believe in murder, crime, chaos, and apple pie.

I also happen to think nobody is right. White culture and black culture are very stupid at this point. Young people are no stupider than their parents, who are giant sell-outs. We need a massive stupidity cleansing program involving stupid farms where Americans are sent to be de-programmed of fratboy binge drinking and violent rap music. Or else, like Rome, we shall burn in our own accumulated vomit and blood, our slaves taking over and drinking and reconfiguring our culture.

Ah, America! Ye are like a great tree, plugged and bricked, masturbating with its branches, and with a belly-button job for the hole in its center, where a bald Republican owl lives. I want to slap George W. Bush and 50 Cent with a giant piece of rancid steak and some starving children. Where's your policy and bling bling now? I wish I were born 80 years earlier.




I can't tell if this is someone else's crap you copy/pasted or if this is your own.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Tanya1976 on 09/03/06 at 8:14 pm


Actually my Dad was born 80 years earlier and he had to put up with WW1, WW2, the depression, and so on.

Life sux no matter when you're born.   :-\\


so did my great-grandparents - only they had to do with the added thing called black skin.

Life doesn't suck. It's those that make life harder for others when they are trying to survive.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/03/06 at 8:28 pm




I can't tell if this is someone else's crap you copy/pasted or if this is your own.

Well, I agree with Herman. (...and I'd like a little of whatever he's been smoking!)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/03/06 at 8:31 pm


Well, I agree with Herman. (...and I'd like a little of whatever he's been smoking!)



The opening line should be clue enough that whoever came up with that was full of it when they wrote it.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/03/06 at 10:00 pm



The opening line should be clue enough that whoever came up with that was full of it when they wrote it.


http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/hsugh.gif

Thats called "tongue-in-cheek".

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/03/06 at 10:07 pm


http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/hsugh.gif

Thats called "tongue-in-cheek".



Isn't tounge-in-cheek supposed to be somewhat funny? 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/03/06 at 10:31 pm



Isn't tounge-in-cheek supposed to be somewhat funny? 


Actually, I thought it was kinda funny. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/dunno.gif

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/03/06 at 10:42 pm


Actually, I thought it was kinda funny. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/dunno.gif



Oh yeah, this ----> "I think all Americans are stupid and deserve to be eaten by the bastard child of a 26-headed hydra and Joan Rivers." = HILARIOUS. 


We obviously don't have the same kind of sense of humor.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/03/06 at 10:49 pm



Oh yeah, this ----> "I think all Americans are stupid and deserve to be eaten by the bastard child of a 26-headed hydra and Joan Rivers." = HILARIOUS. 


We obviously don't have the same kind of sense of humor.


I think the fact that you would take a statement that ridiculous in a completely non-humorous way shows you're lacking humor here...

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: annonymouse on 09/03/06 at 11:00 pm


a. It is only a tinyl percentage of the African-American population that is in jail.  Mr. Cosby knows this.  Ann Coulter made the same racist remark about Afrocentric-sounding names, "How many boys named Jamal are on death row?" I dunno Ann, how many boys named John are on death row?
b. Mohammed is one of the most (if not the most) common male-given name in the world.  What's "crap" about that?  Got a problem with Muslims too, Bill?
c. Mr. Cosby asserted about the same time last year that the Afrocentric names hurt the chances for success of the men and women who bear them.  Funny names is it?  There are lily-white youths in elite prep schools with names such as Piper, Dakota, Tapley-Ann, McKenzie, Tomato Joplin, and Riverchild.  They seem to do just fine in life.


A. Where are you getting your facts?
B. african americans arent musslims.
c. it's true. which name do you find more appealing? anthony or ANFORNEY???  how about salleem or raheem? or how about jaquez?

good for bill cosby. every race has it's flaws. at least he's admitting to his.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/03/06 at 11:11 pm


I think the fact that you would take a statement that ridiculous in a completely non-humorous way shows you're lacking humor here...



Just because I don't find the same things you do funny, doesn't mean I don't have a sense of humor.  It means we find different things funny.  I didn't see the humor in that statement.  I just thought it was stupid.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/04/06 at 1:01 am


A. Where are you getting your facts?
B. african americans arent musslims.
c. it's true. which name do you find more appealing? anthony or ANFORNEY???  how about salleem or raheem? or how about jaquez?

good for bill cosby. every race has it's flaws. at least he's admitting to his.


Check your spelling and punctuation, son.

This is just general knowledge.  I would have to research what the exact percentage of African-Americans in prison as of 2006.  Remember, African-Americans and prison is a controversial topic.  There are more blacks in prison proportional to their percentage of the general population than whites.  Conservatives like to say (duh) that's because they commit more crimes.  Liberals, and I consider myself one, say it's more complex.  African-Americans are less likely to be able to afford competent legal representation, for instance.
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/DOCS/OCJRC/OCJRC94/940650k.htm
I'd rather not dwell on that.  I'm not even sure if Cosby was referring to the African-American population as a whole, or just blacks with certain first names! There's also a difference between "jail" and "prison."  "Jail" is used colloquially to refer to any form of incarceration, but statistics parse "county jail" from "state prison" and so forth.  Cosby's statement about how "It's all crap and they're all in jail" doesn't sound like a man with an advanced degree in education.  It sounds like Archie Bunker after he's had a few!

Some African-Americans are indeed Muslims.  This again is controversial.  Wallace Fard Muhammad  founded the "Nation of Islam" in 1930, but it didn't really become popular with black Americans until the 1960s as introduced by Malcolm X.  Thus most African-American men named Mohammed are young to middle-aged.  But what does it matter?  Do you have to be Jewish in order to be named Joshua?  Come on.

My point about names was this--why should it matter what African-Americans want to name their children?  It doesn't seem to bother anybody when whites name their kids unconventional names.  I've heard people say, "Well, black kids can't afford to go into the world with those ghetto names."  Isn't that the problem?  Doesn't that make economic inequality and race prejudice the problem, not what syllables black parents find euphonious?

The way Cosby was speaking did not sound like he considered the rest of black America "his race," but a race that had become alien to him.  The message didn't come across as, "All races have faults.  Blacks have faults.  I'm a black man, and I have faults."  It sounded more like, "I'm a shining paragon of success...and you suck."  I don't think Cosby intended his words to sound so arrogant, but when we speak out of anger, the results are hurtful.

PS.  I think a lot of this "race" business is a lot of horsepucky scientifically speaking, and the more we find out about the human genome, the more apparent this becomes.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/04/06 at 1:17 am


PS.  I think a lot of this "race" business is a lot of horsepucky scientifically speaking, and the more we find out about the human genome, the more apparent this becomes.


I agree, Max.  Hell, don't we have about 98% the same DNA as chimpanzees? If thats true than the difference between races of homo sapiens has got to be almost nothing genetically speaking.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/04/06 at 1:30 am


I agree, Max.  Hell, don't we have about 98% the same DNA as chimpanzees? If thats true than the difference between races of homo sapiens has got to be almost nothing genetically speaking.

As one British geneticist put it, "we share half of our genes with the banana" (banana-sapiens?)

I don't think our emphasis on differences in appearance will go away as long as we remain a visually-oriented species.  Thus, I think it is vital to emphasize how utterly wrong the eugenicists of yore were, especially about the black vs. white question.  The racism injected into our culture over hundreds of years dies hard. 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: saver on 09/04/06 at 2:39 am


Check your spelling and punctuation, son.

This is just general knowledge.  I would have to research what the exact percentage of African-Americans in prison as of 2006.  Remember, African-Americans and prison is a controversial topic.  There are more blacks in prison proportional to their percentage of the general population than whites.  Conservatives like to say (duh) that's because they commit more crimes.  Liberals, and I consider myself one, say it's more complex.  African-Americans are less likely to be able to afford competent legal representation, for instance.
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/DOCS/OCJRC/OCJRC94/940650k.htm
I'd rather not dwell on that.  I'm not even sure if Cosby was referring to the African-American population as a whole, or just blacks with certain first names! There's also a difference between "jail" and "prison."  "Jail" is used colloquially to refer to any form of incarceration, but statistics parse "county jail" from "state prison" and so forth.  Cosby's statement about how "It's all crap and they're all in jail" doesn't sound like a man with an advanced degree in education.  It sounds like Archie Bunker after he's had a few!

Some African-Americans are indeed Muslims.  This again is controversial.  Wallace Fard Muhammad  founded the "Nation of Islam" in 1930, but it didn't really become popular with black Americans until the 1960s as introduced by Malcolm X.  Thus most African-American men named Mohammed are young to middle-aged.  But what does it matter?  Do you have to be Jewish in order to be named Joshua?  Come on.

My point about names was this--why should it matter what African-Americans want to name their children?  It doesn't seem to bother anybody when whites name their kids unconventional names.  I've heard people say, "Well, black kids can't afford to go into the world with those ghetto names."  Isn't that the problem?  Doesn't that make economic inequality and race prejudice the problem, not what syllables black parents find euphonious?

The way Cosby was speaking did not sound like he considered the rest of black America "his race," but a race that had become alien to him.  The message didn't come across as, "All races have faults.  Blacks have faults.  I'm a black man, and I have faults."  It sounded more like, "I'm a shining paragon of success...and you suck."  I don't think Cosby intended his words to sound so arrogant, but when we speak out of anger, the results are hurtful.

PS.  I think a lot of this "race" business is a lot of horsepucky scientifically speaking, and the more we find out about the human genome, the more apparent this becomes.


Consider the detailed information attached excerpt of radio show host Larry Elder(Los Angeles/nationally syndicated),responding to an LA Times article of Earl Hutchinson which did not give fair debate from David Horowitz about comments on 'black' crime figures. Here's some of what it's about out there:

according to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports for 1993, blacks (who comprise 12% of the population) accounted for 57.6% of the arrests for murder and non-negligent manslaughter; 41.3% of the arrests for forcible rape; and 62.1% of the arrests for robbery. Altogether, blacks accounted for 45.7% of the arrests for violent crime (murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault).

Actually, it's much worse. Most of the crime is committed by black men, approximately 6% of the population. Furthermore, most of the crime is committed by young black men, approximately 3% of the population. Rarely have so few done so much to so many.

As for the fact that most drug users and abusers are white, and that most of the poor are non-black, well, duh. Seven times more, remember? But ,while 12% of the population, blacks comprise 40% of welfare recipients, and 50% of the prison population.

Which brings us to another brain-dead Hutchinson assertion: "The prisons are increasingly jammed with poor, young blacks due to Draconian drug laws that target African-Americans." What? When federal and state legislators around the country drafted anti-drug laws, they slipped into the back room and said, "Hey, what can we do to nail the brothers?" While I happen to believe that the war on drugs is stupid and should be called off, there is a simple way to avoid going to jail. Don't deal.

Hutchinson falsely asserts that "the U. S. Sentencing Commission pointed to the blatant inequality in the criminal justice system when it recommended that the harsh sentences handed out for drug possession to black offenders, and light sentences given to white offenders be modified 'or equalized.'" No, they didn't. They focused on the unequal punishments given to those busted for powder cocaine versus crack cocaine. The rationale behind the differences is simple: Reduce the violence attendant to the crack cocaine trade. Victims of this trade, by the way, are usually fellow black residents of the inner city. (But who cares about that.) You may quarrel with the reasoning, but it is most certainly not racist.

In fact, in 1986 Reverend Jesse Jackson and black New York Congressman Charles Rangel held a press conference urging the government to do something about the crack epidemic. Rangel himself voted to impose harsher sentences for crack offenders.

Besides, according to a Wall Street Journal article by Wayne Roques, a retired DEA agent, in 1995, the total number of federal prisoners behind bars for crack was 3,771, out of a total of 100,000 federal prisoners. Of the 6,015 federal prisoners for marijuana, how many were black? 442. (Obviously, racism against non-blacks.) Other crimes where white arrests vastly exceed blacks include busts for drunk driving, prostitution, and LSD. (Yet, more racism...)

Hutchinson said President Clinton agreed with the Commission to equalize sentences for crack and powder violations. No, Clinton didn't. On October 27, 1995, the "L. A. Times" carried a front-page article with the following heading: "Clinton to Sign Bill Preserving Stiff Crack Rules." (Guess Hutchinson's paper boy called in sick that day.)

Hutchinson tells us that 1/6 of California's black youth have records, diminishing their job prospects. Shocking! You mean, once somebody has a criminal record, employers are less likely to hire them? Horrors! What will those dastardly employers think of next!

As to Hutchinson's implied charge of "blatant inequality in the criminal justice system," "Investors Business Daily" reports that in all but two of the fourteen categories of crime, blacks are more likely to have their cases dismissed and more likely to be found not guilty than whites. (The two exceptions? Traffic offenses and miscellaneous felonies, which make up 1.4% of the sample.) Furthermore, careful analysis of the death penalty shows that whites are more likely to get it, and that whites outnumber blacks on death row, even though blacks account for nearly half of the nation's annual 30,000 homicides.

Hutchinson also trots out the catch-all liberal saw, that the media creates a "perception" that blacks are "inherently violent and prone to crime."

Hutchinson made this point repeatedly in his wrong and wrong-headed book, "The Assassination of the Black Male Image." In fact, the media leans over backwards to avoid the perception that it is racist, and studies show that blacks are more likely on television to be portrayed as doctors, lawyers, or managers than is the case in real life, and is less likely to be portrayed as common street thugs than is the case in reality.

An exhaustive series by the "L. A. Times" shows that this newspaper covers but a small fraction of urban crime compared to suburban crime. The newspaper, like most, under-reports black and urban crime.

Hutchinson remains in denial, but honest blacks are not. In their book, "Scar of Race," authors Paul Schneiderman and Thomas Piazza note that blacks are more likely than whites to say yes to the following statements: Blacks are aggressive or violent; blacks are boastful; blacks are complaining; blacks are lazy; and blacks are irresponsible. They write, "Plainly, large numbers of whites are perfectly willing to express frankly negative evaluations of blacks...but the national study adds a new element altogether. In every case, blacks are at least as likely as whites to hold a negative view of blacks."

Need more info, see Larry's web and search for the complete challenge.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/04/06 at 7:41 am



Some African-Americans are indeed Muslims.  This again is controversial.  Wallace Fard Muhammad  founded the "Nation of Islam" in 1930, but it didn't really become popular with black Americans until the 1960s as introduced by Malcolm X.  Thus most African-American men named Mohammed are young to middle-aged.  But what does it matter?  Do you have to be Jewish in order to be named Joshua?  Come on.

The way Cosby was speaking did not sound like he considered the rest of black America "his race," but a race that had become alien to him.  The message didn't come across as, "All races have faults.  Blacks have faults.  I'm a black man, and I have faults."  It sounded more like, "I'm a shining paragon of success...and you suck."  I don't think Cosby intended his words to sound so arrogant, but when we speak out of anger, the results are hurtful.



1.  I think you will find that the practices of the Nation of Islam (official name, "The Lost-Found Nation of Islam in the West") are quite incompatible with "official" (Shiia or Sunni) Islam which is why nearly all mainstream Islamic bodies have rejected the NOI as outcasts.  The NOI started as a black independence movement that chose "Islam" as its religion because somehow Islam is supposed to be an African religion.  Cheif amongst their differences with other Islamic sects is that they believe that God came to earth in the person of Wallace Fard back in '30.  The NOI has, howevere, gotten alot of young black men off of drugs and that's to their credit.  But the rest of their teachings are openly and vociferously racist.

2.  Cosby was not talking about "his race".  He was talking about those elements that show gross disregard of accounatbility and who celebrate bad english, irresponsibility, dropping out of school, and immorality as a "culture".  I do not think you would hear him apply his statement to, for example, Harry Belefonte, Shari Belefonte-Harper, Condi Rice, Malcolm Jamal-Warner, and countless other persons of color who worked hard and succeeded.  A RACIST would say that about all blacks.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/04/06 at 12:44 pm


1.  I think you will find that the practices of the Nation of Islam (official name, "The Lost-Found Nation of Islam in the West") are quite incompatible with "official" (Shiia or Sunni) Islam which is why nearly all mainstream Islamic bodies have rejected the NOI as outcasts.  The NOI started as a black independence movement that chose "Islam" as its religion because somehow Islam is supposed to be an African religion.  Cheif amongst their differences with other Islamic sects is that they believe that God came to earth in the person of Wallace Fard back in '30.  The NOI has, howevere, gotten alot of young black men off of drugs and that's to their credit.  But the rest of their teachings are openly and vociferously racist.


All of that about the Nation of Islam is true except you have to consider this- they make up a very small minority of African-American Muslims(as do the Five Percenters and other similar groups).  The vast majority of today's African-American Muslims are orthodox, Sunni Muslims.  Elijah Mohammed's son, Warith Deen Mohammed, is widely known for bringing the original Nation of Islam into the Sunni fold. Farrakhan's group split off later and re-formed the Nation with it's original beliefs.

Here's the link to his wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warith_Deen_Muhammad

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/04/06 at 4:27 pm

Mr. Saver mentions Larry Elder and David Horowitz in his first paragraph.  There a few times when it is appropriate to dismiss a premise without considering the entire statement.  Larry Elder and David Horowitz?  It's like saying, "according Mein Kampf..."
Horowitz is Jewish, of course, but the far right Jewish Americans have joined forces with the white supremicists.  This goes hand-in-hand with LB's statment that Cosby was not talking about all blacks.

See, the racism in Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa was unalloyed.  The racism in contemporary America is weighted with classism.  In other words if you are Black, Latin, Jewish, Asian, and yes, even Arab, and you are rich and live like a white Republican, then you are just dandy.  Mr. Cosby was blurring both race and class is in his rant.

The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., talked about race in America for over a decade and managed to evade a lynching.  He talked about class in America for about two months, and got shot dead!  You're still not supposed to talk about class in our media unless it is in conjunction with either of these phrases: "middle class," or "class envy."

Yeah, I know some Muslims don't consider NOI Muslims real Muslims.  Some Muslims say anybody who has not read the Koran in Arabic cannot be a real Muslim.  There are all sorts of things to fight over.  The contention over who's a real Muslim is not confined to NOI.  It's worldwide and it's been going on for centuries.  It has caused war after war and millions of deaths.  There are a few kinks mankind has yet to work out with organized religion!
I don't like the racism of NOI, but I think I understand how it came to be!

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/04/06 at 4:35 pm

SM...

I myself wrote that. I was cooped up taking like 20 pages of notes about the robber barons and their horrible abuses of labor and their theories of "vertical integration"/"horizontal integration" and the "Gospel of Wealth", and the way the late 19th century parrots the terrible changes that have been going on since the Reagan Administration. The belief that the wealthy will trickle down their wealth into the public, while only a few do (this was Andrew Carnegie's idea.) The way skilled industrial workers were turned into machines. The mistaken belief of the small businessman, choked in debt, that he too could succeed. Actually, Horatio Alger's books were re-edited after his death. He himself was conflicted about industrialization and poverty, and believed you needed luck and morality, other than hard work, in order to succeed. His books were meant to educate the middle-class about the poor. He was also a closeted gay man.

I'm not getting into a fight with you, SM, or hijacking this thread for a fight. The purpose of my post was, WE'RE ALL STUPID. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? It was totally meant to be humorous...and a joke. It was tongue-in-cheek.

A great case in point would be my great-grandfather, Ernst M. He was born in Germany, and was a German patriot who, of course, hated the French and Russians and all other of Germany's enemies in WWI, and was injured at Verdun, which he was very proud of. Being a German Jew, he saw himself as superior to all other Jews, particularly the "Ostjuden" who form the majority of the Ashkenazi Jewish population, the people from E. Europe who spoke Yiddish or are descended from those who spoke Yiddish, today forming the majority of Jews worldwide. 3.3 million of 'em lived in Poland prior to WWII, 3 million of whom died (that's right, kiddies! Half of the 6 million were Poles.)  He was never himself much of a success-a piano store owner and social worker, with blonde hair and blue eyes that were his pride. His sense of German identity and German pride and superiority was destroyed in the 1930s, and he left the country for Portugal and then England in 1939, where my grandmother was a refugee. He became a masseur. And, he was disappointed when my grandmother married my grandfather, Robert L., a Jew of POLISH descent! More successful than he or anyone in his family had ever been, a lawyer with a Yale degree who was 2nd in the NY state Regents exams for 1936 and a Yale grad! He was disappointed, because, obviously, that his daughter was marrying an Ostjuden destroyed his last German Jewish superiority and bigotry! And a Holocaust survivor! Yep, that's right!

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/04/06 at 4:53 pm

There is so much to answer to in this post.  My attention span and temper can't begin.  On some things I do agree and on others i don't.  What does bug me is the whole name thing.  There are so many parallels to the african-american experience and Irish experience that people tend to ignore.  When the Irish first came to the USA their names were considered abhorrent to "civilized" ears.  Many upon going to work who went to work found that their employers forced them to answer to to English names; Bridget to Mary, Umer to Jane, Assumpta to Alice, Padraig became Patrick, Sean became John, add infinatum.  I admit that I sometimes wonder at the names, but I see them in a bigger context and bristle when people believe the names should be brought into line.

There are more parallels that can be drawn in the Irish American and African American experience, including the question of crime(who gets arrested and goes to jail, and why) but y'know, I'm just a bit sick and tired of it. 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/04/06 at 5:00 pm


There is so much to answer to in this post.  My attention span and temper can't begin.  On some things I do agree and on others i don't.  What does bug me is the whole name thing.  There are so many parallels to the african-american experience and Irish experience that people tend to ignore.  When the Irish first came to the USA their names were considered abhorrent to "civilized" ears.  Many upon going to work who went to work found that their employers forced them to answer to to English names; Bridget to Mary, Umer to Jane, Assumpta to Alice, Padraig became Patrick, Sean became John, add infinatum.  I admit that I sometimes wonder at the names, but I see them in a bigger context and bristle when people believe the names should be brought into line.

There are more parallels that can be drawn in the Irish American and African American experience, including the question of crime(who gets arrested and goes to jail, and why) but y'know, I'm just a bit sick and tired of it. 


My book on "Ethnicity in America" said that the Irish filled the same sociological position in the mid-19th century through the 1880s as the blacks were forced to fill in the mid-20th century during the Great Migration. 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/04/06 at 5:07 pm


My book on "Ethnicity in America" said that the Irish filled the same sociological position in the mid-19th century through the 1880s as the blacks were forced to fill in the mid-20th century during the Great Migration. 


Try "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev.  That is a good one.  There are many parallels in the treatment of Irish American and African American.  The reason police wagons were called "paddy wagons" was because "paddy" was rude slang for Irish, and the police wagons were always filled with Irish.  For quite a while the African Americans and Irish worked together, but there came a breach after the mass migration during the so-called "Irish famine"(which was not a famine at all) and post abolition fight for jobs.  It is a very interesting history.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: loki 13 on 09/04/06 at 5:40 pm


because "paddy" was rude slang for Irish


This is a reason I hate when people refer to St. Patricks Day as Paddy's day or St. Paddy's Day.
It's a derogatory term that seems to very much acceptable in todays society. It is Okay to use
stereotypes, so long as the group being stereotyped is the Irish. In an episode of "The New
Adventures Of Old Christine"  Christine, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Was throwing an Irish themed party
for her son. When her son asked, "Can we pee in the sink?" Christine's answer," It's an Irish party,
what do you think." The network wouldn't dare use another ethnicity for their "toilet humor"
but because it's Irish, it's Okay. Neighborhood bars, Irish bars included, advertise St. Patricks Day
by saying "Come In And Get Your Irish On" are we to assume all Irish are drunks or to celebrate
the feast day of St. Patrick you must drink. See, The media, The networks and commercial establishments
its all right to dump on the Irish, they won't care.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/04/06 at 5:47 pm

It's something that many Irish perpetuate, though.  I'm not saying that makes it okay, but it's not as if the Irish are innocent of partaking in that which you described.  My dearest friend on this planet is Irish Catholic and every March 17th, she goes out with her friends, dresses in green from head to toe and proceeds to get sh*tfaced.  Is that was St. Patrick's Day is about?  Of course not.  However, much like other feast days/holidays, St. Patrick's Day has become more of a cultural thing in this country than a day with actual historical roots and values.  She went to Ireland a few years ago for St. Patrick's Day and what you see in NYC is what you see in Dublin.  Advertisements for all you can drink specials, "St. Paddy's Day" decorations, the whole nine. 

It's difficult to eliminate stereotypes when the people being stereotyped do nothing to stop it.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/04/06 at 5:55 pm


This is a reason I hate when people refer to St. Patricks Day as Paddy's day or St. Paddy's Day.
It's a derogatory term that seems to very much acceptable in todays society. It is Okay to use
stereotypes, so long as the group being stereotyped is the Irish. In an episode of "The New
Adventures Of Old Christine"  Christine, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Was throwing an Irish themed party
for her son. When her son asked, "Can we pee in the sink?" Christine's answer," It's an Irish party,
what do you think." The network wouldn't dare use another ethnicity for their "toilet humor"
but because it's Irish, it's Okay. Neighborhood bars, Irish bars included, advertise St. Patricks Day
by saying "Come In And Get Your Irish On" are we to assume all Irish are drunks or to celebrate
the feast day of St. Patrick you must drink. See, The media, The networks and commercial establishments
its all right to dump on the Irish, they won't care.




It puzzles me why Irish-Americans still celebrate their excess drinking when alcoholism did the Irish so much damage.  You don't see Native Americans celebrating "fire water."  All I have to do is look at my father's side of the family.  Stereotypical Irish drunks.  My grandmother had four brothers.  Three of them died of drink before I was even born!  My grandmother herself was a raging alcoholic her whole life, she just happened to hang on until the cirrhosis killed her at the age of 87.  My dad's stepfather was another raging Irish drunk.  He was the son of a drunken Irish New York cop who used to beat holy hell out of him.  Stepfather did the same thing to my dad.  
I'm not against cracking a few jokes, but celebrating your poison seems silly to me!

It is true police cruisers got the name paddywagons because they were used to transport Irish drunks, but it's also likely the cops driving the thing were "Paddies" too!

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: loki 13 on 09/04/06 at 6:19 pm

Max, were they alcoholics because they were Irish or were they alcoholics because they drank?
There are other cultures who drink and celebrate drink more than the Irish, Octoberfest comes
to mind yet Germans aren't considered drunks. The French and Italians have wine for breakfast,
they aren't considered drunks. Listen, I know alot about alcoholism, believe me it knows no ethnicity.
People become alcoholics because they build a dependency on alcohol not because they born into it.

SM, I know the Irish are just as wrong for keeping up the stereotype and the derogratory terms.
To tell you the truth, I am not really offended it by either. What I don't like is the media's double
standard. They won't use words against any other ethnicity, so why do they for the Irish?

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/04/06 at 6:29 pm

Alcoholism isn't inherently Irish.  Alcohol killed several members of my family and there isn't enough Irish blood in us to amount to half a thimble full. 

You're an alcoholic because you drink too much, not because you're Irish, or any other ethnicity that exports booze.  Just because the alcoholics in your family were Irish, doesn't mean the Irish are drunks. 


Kevin, I don't know why the stereotyping of the Irish is as culturally accepted as it is.  And the media does use other ethnically derogatory terms when talking about other groups of people.  The "shyster" lawyer is one that I hear a lot.  One of the accepted origins of this phrase is from the character Shylock in The Merchant of Venice.  Shylock as you know, was a Jew.  The other stereotype along with that is all lawyers are Jewish, even if that's not the case.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/04/06 at 6:51 pm


Max, were they alcoholics because they were Irish or were they alcoholics because they drank?
There are other cultures who drink and celebrate drink more than the Irish, Octoberfest comes
to mind yet Germans aren't considered drunks. The French and Italians have wine for breakfast,
they aren't considered drunks. Listen, I know alot about alcoholism, believe me it knows no ethnicity.
People become alcoholics because they build a dependency on alcohol not because they born into it.

SM, I know the Irish are just as wrong for keeping up the stereotype and the derogratory terms.
To tell you the truth, I am not really offended it by either. What I don't like is the media's double
standard. They won't use words against any other ethnicity, so why do they for the Irish?

a. The propensity for alcoholism is heritable.
b. In common with Native Americans, the Irish had their land and their dignity seized from them by ruthless invaders.  In poverty and despair alcohol offers a way out.
c. Obviously, this is not limited to Irish and Native Americans.  You see extremely high alcoholism in Finns, Russians, and many other ethnicities.
d. I recapitulate, the propensity for alcoholism is heritable.

The drinking habits among the French, the Italians, the Portuguese,  far less often leads to the destructive excesses you see among the Irish, the Russians, and the Native Americans.  Despite relative social stability, there are high rates of alcoholism and suicide in Scandinavia, particularly Finland.  This may have more to do with climate, lack of sunlight, and resultant depression.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/04/06 at 6:59 pm


a. The propensity for alcoholism is heritable.
b. In common with Native Americans, the Irish had their land and their dignity seized from them by ruthless invaders.  In poverty and despair alcohol offers a way out.
c. Obviously, this is not limited to Irish and Native Americans.  You see extremely high alcoholism in Finns, Russians, and many other ethnicities.
d. I recapitulate, the propensity for alcoholism is heritable.

The drinking habits among the French, the Italians, the Portuguese,  far less often leads to the destructive excesses you see among the Irish, the Russians, and the Native Americans.  Despite relative social stability, there are high rates of alcoholism and suicide in Scandinavia, particularly Finland.  This may have more to do with climate, lack of sunlight, and resultant depression.



a. I know, hence why it killed several members of my family.  That's why I am so careful about my alcohol consumption in the rare times I do imbibe.  I am always fearful that I may grow dependent on it, even if it makes no sense.

b. Quite a few other groups of people in this world suffered the indignities that the Irish and Native Americans had.  I would say the African-Americans had it just as bad, if not worse.  What is the alcoholism rate amongst them?  Poverty and despair are factors that cause people to drink, but I'd say the idle rich have just the same propensity to drink too much as the poor.

c. I am sure there are high rates of alcoholism in other cultures, including those where alcohol is not the first thing you think about when you mention them. 

d. It is inheritable, but it is not based on your ethnic makeup.  Just because someone is Irish, Finnish, Russian, German, etc., doesn't mean they are more likely to become drunks than someone who's Brazilian or Japanese.  They might be if it in runs in the family, but not everyone in those ethnic groups has alcoholism in the family.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/04/06 at 7:18 pm



a. I know, hence why it killed several members of my family.  That's why I am so careful about my alcohol consumption in the rare times I do imbibe.  I am always fearful that I may grow dependent on it, even if it makes no sense.

b. Quite a few other groups of people in this world suffered the indignities that the Irish and Native Americans had.  I would say the African-Americans had it just as bad, if not worse.  What is the alcoholism rate amongst them?  Poverty and despair are factors that cause people to drink, but I'd say the idle rich have just the same propensity to drink too much as the poor.

c. I am sure there are high rates of alcoholism in other cultures, including those where alcohol is not the first thing you think about when you mention them. 

d. It is inheritable, but it is not based on your ethnic makeup.  Just because someone is Irish, Finnish, Russian, German, etc., doesn't mean they are more likely to become drunks than someone who's Brazilian or Japanese.  They might be if it in runs in the family, but not everyone in those ethnic groups has alcoholism in the family.

Right. Alcoholism runs in families the way depression runs in families.  Depression runs in mine on both sides.  Alcoholism can affect the behavior of non-drinkers.  My father never had a drinking problem, but he exhibits a lot of dysfunctional behaviors common among alcoholics. It's similar to the "dry drunk" phenomenon.  That's because he was brought up by alcoholics and surrounded by alcoholics.  Some of it rubbed off on his children.  Both of my sisters and I show some of the same tendancies, although only one sibling struggles with actual alcoholism.  My sister describes alcohol intoxication as "feeling like home."  As many times as I've been drunk, I've never craved alcohol the way my sister does.  My other sister, though not alcoholic, did develop a marijuana dependency at the ripe old age of 13.  She didn't kick the habit until 20 years later when she decided to have a child.  She quit completely for a few years, but a decade after she quit, it has crept back.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/07/06 at 4:51 am

What I was trying to say, and will try to be quick because I am off to work right now is It doesn't take much to see that in large scale societies there is a power structure that will demonize a segment of the population and imbue that segment with negative traits, and will actively promote the disenfranchisement of that segment.  When I was in sixth grade it dawned on me when studying India that I was a member of what is considered the "untouchable" caste there.  That was when my eyes were opened to how precarious my place in society really was.  So much for thinking singing "Let There Be Peace on Earth" and thinking that would change the world. 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/07/06 at 5:53 am


Right. Alcoholism runs in families the way depression runs in families.  Depression runs in mine on both sides.  Alcoholism can affect the behavior of non-drinkers.  My father never had a drinking problem, but he exhibits a lot of dysfunctional behaviors common among alcoholics. It's similar to the "dry drunk" phenomenon.  That's because he was brought up by alcoholics and surrounded by alcoholics.  Some of it rubbed off on his children.  Both of my sisters and I show some of the same tendancies, although only one sibling struggles with actual alcoholism.  My sister describes alcohol intoxication as "feeling like home."  As many times as I've been drunk, I've never craved alcohol the way my sister does.  My other sister, though not alcoholic, did develop a marijuana dependency at the ripe old age of 13.  She didn't kick the habit until 20 years later when she decided to have a child.  She quit completely for a few years, but a decade after she quit, it has crept back.


Also, depression and alcoholism oftentimes work off each other. My maternal grandfather grew up with a schizophrenic mother and sister, became a psychiatrist because of this, and suffered with clinical depression, as did my maternal grandmother, for most of his life. No doubt, his parents, Eastern Europeans semi-illiterate in English, medicated mental disease with liquor. As well, he was a "lace curtain" upper middle-class alcoholic who guzzled endless martinis daily the second he got home from the office. However, my mother has struggled with mild alcoholism for all her life, which she uses as medication for clinical depression. Though, being raised by an alcoholic, she had the "dry drunk" pattern even before she started drinking: perpetual dissatisfaction and despair, paranoia, anger and rage, and an inability to communicate or maintain relationships with others. Also, nobody in my family has ever admitted to being an alcoholic, since "Jews don't drink" and it's bad form to admit it.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/07/06 at 7:10 pm


What I was trying to say, and will try to be quick because I am off to work right now is It doesn't take much to see that in large scale societies there is a power structure that will demonize a segment of the population and imbue that segment with negative traits, and will actively promote the disenfranchisement of that segment.  When I was in sixth grade it dawned on me when studying India that I was a member of what is considered the "untouchable" caste there.  That was when my eyes were opened to how precarious my place in society really was.  So much for thinking singing "Let There Be Peace on Earth" and thinking that would change the world. 

Very succinct.  Your comment on identifying with "untouchable caste" strikes a chord with me, it really cuts to the quick.  Granted there was more overt racism when you were in sixth grade, I still think the same message gets delivered to the primal consciousness of African-American children today as then.  Once a child receives the message he or she is "less than," that child is forever compelled to respond to the message...deny it or accept it, raise hell or stay silent...the message is always there.  That's the essence of the racism still with us today.


Also, depression and alcoholism oftentimes work off each other. My maternal grandfather grew up with a schizophrenic mother and sister, became a psychiatrist because of this, and suffered with clinical depression, as did my maternal grandmother, for most of his life. No doubt, his parents, Eastern Europeans semi-illiterate in English, medicated mental disease with liquor. As well, he was a "lace curtain" upper middle-class alcoholic who guzzled endless martinis daily the second he got home from the office. However, my mother has struggled with mild alcoholism for all her life, which she uses as medication for clinical depression. Though, being raised by an alcoholic, she had the "dry drunk" pattern even before she started drinking: perpetual dissatisfaction and despair, paranoia, anger and rage, and an inability to communicate or maintain relationships with others. Also, nobody in my family has ever admitted to being an alcoholic, since "Jews don't drink" and it's bad form to admit it.

Evidence shows depression runs in families.  Is it nature or nurture?  Some of both.  Depression sufferers find solace in alcohol.  Some, not all.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/08/06 at 2:52 pm


Very succinct.  Your comment on identifying with "untouchable caste" strikes a chord with me, it really cuts to the quick.  Granted there was more overt racism when you were in sixth grade, I still think the same message gets delivered to the primal consciousness of African-American children today as then.  Once a child receives the message he or she is "less than," that child is forever compelled to respond to the message...deny it or accept it, raise hell or stay silent...the message is always there.  That's the essence of the racism still with us today.
Evidence shows depression runs in families.  Is it nature or nurture?  Some of both.  Depression sufferers find solace in alcohol.  Some, not all.


I honestly learned to be proud of being different. Your average white American has much less distinct cultural heritage than your average African-American, Jewish-American, Mexican-American, Italian-American, etc., which is something I appreciate. Being all of those things is much more of a big deal in some parts of the country than others, of course. It's weird how being Jewish-American is always sort of "with you", it comes out pretty distinctly when you live around non-Jews. If you're in a big city with alot of them, you forget that you are, but if you go south or to the Midwest, you suddenly realize what it means. Alot of Jewish kids in the South still suffer things like having pictures drawn of them as the only ones in their class not going to heaven or being systematically beaten up. Didn't James Baldwin once say being black is like having a pebble in your shoe? Sometimes you don't notice it at all, sometimes it shifts around and irks you, and sometimes it's like a balancing ball that makes you see things more clearly. Whereas it's terrible being part of an oppressed minority, I think that position has allowed African-American culture to be so great and to be "special" in a certain way.

I agree that depression is a nature/nurture issue...it plays off itself. You absorb behaviors like a sponge when you're younger, that's part of it.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/08/06 at 5:58 pm

(Don't blame the whites...blame the yolks!)
:P

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/09/06 at 7:03 am



(Don't blame the whites...blame the yolks!)
:P



That's supposed to be funny, well the yolks on you...yukyukyuk  :D

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/09/06 at 1:34 pm


That's supposed to be funny, well the yolks on you...yukyukyuk   :D

I knew somebody was going to make the pun, just wasn't sure which one!
;)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 09/10/06 at 8:57 pm

I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but oh well ::)

What are African Americans supposed to believe?  On one hand, they have Bill Cosby saying "Don't blame the whites" and on the other, there's Jesse Jackson saying "Blame the whites".  Personally, I'd like to see the 2 of them have a debate......

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/11/06 at 12:29 am


I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but oh well ::)

What are African Americans supposed to believe?  On one hand, they have Bill Cosby saying "Don't blame the whites" and on the other, there's Jesse Jackson saying "Blame the whites".  Personally, I'd like to see the 2 of them have a debate......

That's a misrepresentation of what Rev. Jackson said.  He never said, "The white man got you down so drop outta school and sell crack."  Jackson doesn't deny reality.  Do for yourself, yes.  Do for your neighbor, yes. But never deny the socioeconimc forces arrayed against you.  It's silly to pretend there is not institutionalized racism alive and (un)well in America.  Come on.  Cosby gets whitey rightie credit because he started ranting like Archie Bunker after a six-pack of Duff!
::)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 09/11/06 at 7:18 am


That's a misrepresentation of what Rev. Jackson said.  He never said, "The white man got you down so drop outta school and sell crack."  Jackson doesn't deny reality.  Do for yourself, yes.  Do for your neighbor, yes. But never deny the socioeconimc forces arrayed against you.  It's silly to pretend there is not institutionalized racism alive and (un)well in America.  Come on.  Cosby gets whitey rightie credit because he started ranting like Archie Bunker after a six-pack of Duff!
::)
Why is it that almost every successful African American who speaks out and tries to tell these people to stop blaming others and start looking within themselves is a "sell out"?  Why are people like Jackson (who cries racism for every wrong done.....the "Decatur Six" come to mind simply because we STILL hear about it from time to time on local tv) lauded?  Yes, racism still lives in America, but I think some people don't want it to go away because then they won't have an excuse.  How long do the whites have to pay for "the sins of our fathers"?

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/11/06 at 7:27 am


I honestly learned to be proud of being different. Your average white American has much less distinct cultural heritage than your average African-American, Jewish-American, Mexican-American, Italian-American,


Jews and italians are not white?  News to me. 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/11/06 at 7:37 am


This is a reason I hate when people refer to St. Patricks Day as Paddy's day or St. Paddy's Day.
It's a derogatory term that seems to very much acceptable in todays society. It is Okay to use
stereotypes, so long as the group being stereotyped is the Irish. In an episode of "The New
Adventures Of Old Christine"  Christine, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Was throwing an Irish themed party
for her son. When her son asked, "Can we pee in the sink?" Christine's answer," It's an Irish party,
what do you think."


As a native Pittsburgher I am well familiar with peeing in the sinks.  Back at the "old" Three Rivers Stadium, at a Steelers game at halftime, people were lined up forever going into the bathroom.  But there were not enough commodes, and the sinks were at a convenient height, so people stood in line to whiz in the sinks too.  :o

You'll understand when I confide to you that I did not wash my hands after using the facilities at Three Rivers.  ;)

Other mainstreamed Irish ethnic "jokes" are Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish" (like we all are a bunch of carousig rabble), and the especially offensive Lucky Charms cereal, with the stereotyped leprechaun.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/11/06 at 1:19 pm


Jews and italians are not white?  News to me. 


I think most people realise that "white" usually means Northern European. British, Irish, Scandinavian, German etc.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/11/06 at 1:36 pm



The affects of slavery and segregation are still seen today. Believe it or not, where you start out in life DOES affect you.

Although, this doesn't only go for minorities. Being born in a poor socioeconomic position as a white person works much the same, from my experience. I think there is too much of emphasis sometimes on race from the progressive left. Institutional racism is not dead, BUT, I think you're naive if you don't recognise the color that REALLY matters the most in this country is green.

Its like I'm against illegal labor, its hurting our working class men and women. I think its a big problem. BUT, I don't think pro-labor forces in the country should become SO focused on it that they become distractred from the root of the problem, which is American corporate power. My dad is a painter and thats one of the worst hurt fields by illegal workers. Unforunately hes allowed this to make him prejudiced. I pity my father because whether he realises it or not hes allowed himself to be a pawn to big business in this country. The purpose of bringing in these workers is not JUST to stagnate wages, its also to further devide the working class against itself.

I don't know if anyone here has seen Matewan, but it was a film made in the early '80s about a battle between coal company security and striking minors back in 1920s Matewan, West Virginia. At the beginning all of the locals despise the Italian immigrant workers, because like today with illegal aliens from Latin America, they were seen as scabs brought in to work for less and cut them out. However by the end of the film everyone realised that it was pointless to fight eachother; both of their true enemies were the bosses. They were the same.

I want to stop further illegal immigration, but seeing as I don't don't think its possible to deport the 11 million people here, I think it would be good if they could get some sort of path to a legal status. We have no choice really. And once that happens, they'll be able to organise. With illegal work cut out, there will be room in this country for a new, broad-based labor movement. And I am 100% sure American business knows this, and that is why they will fight very hard to keep illegal labor.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/11/06 at 2:36 pm


I think most people realise that "white" usually means Northern European. British, Irish, Scandinavian, German etc.


WTF?  Italians are not "white"?  Pray, tell me exactly what are they?  Does this apply to Sicilians as well as Northern Italians?  I am of Irish, Scottish, and Italian descent and now I wonder if I am a mulatto.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/11/06 at 2:37 pm


WTF?  Italians are not "white"?  Pray, tell me exactly what are they?  Does this apply to Sicilians as well as Northern Italians?  I am of Irish, Scottish, and Italian descent and now I wonder if I am a mulatto.

Did you ever see True Romance, you know, the scene with Dennis Hopper and Christopher Walken...never mind.
:-\\



Why is it that almost every successful African American who speaks out and tries to tell these people to stop blaming others and start looking within themselves is a "sell out"?  Why are people like Jackson (who cries racism for every wrong done.....the "Decatur Six" come to mind simply because we STILL hear about it from time to time on local tv) lauded?  Yes, racism still lives in America, but I think some people don't want it to go away because then they won't have an excuse.  How long do the whites have to pay for "the sins of our fathers"?

Sigh. No. I did not call Mr. Cosby a sell-out.  Ask yourself why that epithet is on your mind.  I am disappointed in Jesse Jackson as much as I am disappointed in Bill Cosby.  I believe Rev. Jackson several times over the past decade has advocated for the wrong parties and failed to speak up where his voice was needed. All these instances the media was sure to publicize ad nauseam.

Again, I don't believe Jackson's message has ever been, "White racism makes it OK for you to dump responsibility for your actions, commit crimes, drop out of school, abuse drugs, behave profanely, dis your parents, and abandon your children."  Jackson is in favor of strengthening the individual, the family, and the community.  He just doesn't think tax cuts for billionaires and school vouchers are part of the solution.

Apart from the criticism Jackson does deserve, the Republican noise machine has systematically distorted, defamed, and denigrated who Jackson is and what he advocates.  If Jackson would only repudiate white racism, condemn liberalism, and rage against poor blacks, he would not have any problem with the right-wingers.  Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams are darlings of the Right.  Now Cosby is too.

No pun intended, but I notce people are very black and white on issues of race.  Either you blame it all on the whites, or you blame it all on the blacks.  I honestly don't know if Mr. Cosby acknowledges there is such a thing as institutional racism or class-based oppression.  He has not made an effort to publicize those points of view.  The Right has lionized him for using the same scornful, inarticulate, and simple-minded rhetoric they use.  And Cosby's a black man, oh goody-goody gum drops!

Mr. Cosby, will you please distinguish yourself from Rush Limbaugh....or is there no distinction?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_scratch.gif

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/12/06 at 12:55 am


WTF?  Italians are not "white"?  Pray, tell me exactly what are they?  Does this apply to Sicilians as well as Northern Italians?  I am of Irish, Scottish, and Italian descent and now I wonder if I am a mulatto.


In terms of American sociological politics, Italians, Jews, and E. Europeans weren't really white until the mid-20th century, or treated as such outside of small areas. Until the late 1950s, many suburbs in even the New York area forbade Jews, Poles, and Italians from settling in them."White" is not really a distinction based on being Caucasian, it's a sociological distinction. In the 1850s, the Irish weren't "white", for example, and most Irish are quite pale.  Skin color and racial background (Caucasian, etc.) are somewhat insignificant. In America, "white" is whoever is the accepted social norm. Like all our presidents have been basically "white", Northern European mixtures of people from NE Europe, who compose the "middle American white" voting pool everyone refers to. In terms of sociology, Italians, Jews, Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks, Czechs, Armenians, Arabs, Perisans, what you may, are all American minorities, concentrated around the large cities primarily.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/12/06 at 12:55 am


WTF?  Italians are not "white"?  Pray, tell me exactly what are they?  Does this apply to Sicilians as well as Northern Italians?  I am of Irish, Scottish, and Italian descent and now I wonder if I am a mulatto.



Italians are white.  If you look up the word caucasian, you'll see that "mediterranean" is included in the classification, and last I checked, that's where Italy was.  Also, "mulatto" means someone with African and European ancestry and it's a word of Spanish/Portugese origin. 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/12/06 at 12:57 am



Italians are white.  If you look up the word caucasian, you'll see that "mediterranean" is included in the classification, and last I checked, that's where Italy was.


"White" in a sociological, not racial concept. The concept of race is pretty porous, anyway. In the late 19th century, whites were basically Protestant Northern Europeans.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/12/06 at 12:59 am


"White" in a sociological, not racial concept. The concept of race is pretty porous, anyway. In the late 19th century, whites were basically Protestant Northern Europeans.



This isn't the late 19th century.  Italians are white.  They aren't black, hispanic, asian, native american or "other" are they?  Italians on an individual basis can be any of those things, depending on what is in their family tree but on the whole, Italians are considered white.  A friend of mine is pureblood Italian and she's paler than me and I'm damn near translucent.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/12/06 at 1:07 am



This isn't the late 19th century.  Italians are white.  They aren't black, hispanic, asian, native american or "other" are they?  Italians on an individual basis can be any of those things, depending on what is in their family tree but on the whole, Italians are considered white.  A friend of mine is pureblood Italian and she's paler than me and I'm damn near translucent.


Yes, they are white, in terms of skin color, racially. Which is a pretty damn insignificant concept, sociologically. I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/12/06 at 1:16 am


Yes, they are white, in terms of skin color, racially. Which is a pretty damn insignificant concept, sociologically. I'm not going to bother arguing with you.



Who's trying to argue?  Are you looking for an argument?

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/12/06 at 2:05 am



How long do the whites have to pay for "the sins of our fathers"?



Excuse me?  I continue to pay a high price for the "sins of your fathers", the cost to you is considerably less. At least the "price" you pay has a return in privledge. The price I pay is a loss of freedoms generally taken for granted by you.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/12/06 at 5:51 am

No, I was not looking for an argument, SM. It seems that you were, since you totally neglected my point and didn't even seem to read my posts, and then jumped down my throat. Perhaps I misconstrued.

Something that irritates me is when white people say "we" when referring to slavery. I noticed this in history class...and the girl saying it was half Christian Syrian and half Ukrainian! You may be "white", but your ancestors still had no part in that. Though I don't think you should be held responsible for the mistakes your ancestors made because of the societies they lived in. Burning that bridge against the ancestors is necessary in order to move on and not be stuck in historical stasis.

All societies have "caste" distinctions. It's an ugly feature of humanity. It's just that in some societies it's by race, whereas in others it isn't. Here, slavery preceded racialization, and the Americans created a racialized caste system. The horrors of slavery were the result of complex economic and social causes in Africa, the Americas, Europe, and Asia. The African upper-classes sold off their lower classes en masse, knowing their fate, to white traders, in exchange for guns and luxury items. The racialized society of the U.S. was created by the combination of a mostly white small farmer economy and a rapidly expanding and profitable plantation economy, a gradated middle between the Carribbean islands (all plantation) and the north (all small farms.) The term "white trash" was invented by black slaves to describe poor white migrant laborers who often labored under worse conditions than them.  Therefore, in the early 19th century as universal white male suffrage was passed, poor whites in the South rallied under "white skin privilege", though they were highly oppressed by the plantation elite too. The contrast between white and black in the South and the two opposite economic systems present there created a "racialized" society defined by slavery, as some were slaves and some not, in a way unseen elsewhere with more homogenous populations.

My point here is that everything is the result of some horrific history. Without the barbarism of Rome and its slave resettlements, there would be no Western culture, for all its highs and lows, and no Italian culture or people, more specifically. This is just one example. As far as I'm concerned, African-Americans are responsible for American culture being great in many ways, and part of what has made great artists and thinkers out of many African-Americans is the legacy of slavery.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/12/06 at 1:45 pm

Back in the early 1900's, one branch of my family (with the name Cornelius) commissioned a big genealogy study to trace the family's "Irish" origins.  8)

To their horror (and in retrospect, my amusement at their short sightedness) they discovered that the Corneliuses originally came from Rome and were Italians.  :o  They immediately had the whole genealogy study torn up and burned, because back in the early 1900's, being Italian was not such a good thing.  ::)

Still amazes the living cr@p out of me... how anybody with a roman name like Cornelius could think that the name was Irish.  ;D

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/12/06 at 2:15 pm


Excuse me?  I continue to pay a high price for the "sins of your fathers", the cost to you is considerably less. At least the "price" you pay has a return in privledge. The price I pay is a loss of freedoms generally taken for granted by you.

Denial is more than just a river in Egypt, as they say.  It always surprises me how white Americans can't see something right in front of their noses.  It was barely forty years ago blacks were guaranteed their full constitutional rights by an act of congress, the Voting Rights Act of 1965.  Earlier this summer a bunch of creepy Republicans in the House tried to halt the Act's renewal.  They did so under the ruse of a complaint over bilingual ballots.  Any toehold in their continuing struggle to reverse social gains of the 20th century.

The "sins of our fathers" did not end in 1865, the were begrudgingly forced to cease and desist one hundred years later, and they've pined for the good ole days of discrimination ever since.

White America does not understand the racist purging of blacks from New Orleans in the year since Hurricane Katrina.  I keep hearing, "Oh, they don't want to go back," and, "they're better off now than before." 

Denial is dangerous.  German citizens turned a blind eye to the pogroms, the ghettoes, and then the death camps.  Such a thing cannot be!  The Americans and the British hauled German villagers adjacent to the camps up to them after the liberation, and said, "See that?  Your government did that!  You didn't know, eh?  Well, know it now and know it forever!" 

I used to think a holocaust of any ethnic group would be impossible in America.  After Hurricane Katrina, I'm not so sure.  I see Americans denying atrocities our government is perpetuating in the post-Katrina Gulf region and it chills me to the bone!  Now is NOT the time to say, "Oh, there used to be racism in America, but there's not anymore, so quit complain,' black people!"  No sir, no ma'am, not the time at all!
>:(

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/12/06 at 2:50 pm


Denial is more than just a river in Egypt, as they say.  It always surprises me how white Americans can't see something right in front of their noses.  It was barely forty years ago blacks were guaranteed their full constitutional rights by an act of congress, the Voting Rights Act of 1965.  Earlier this summer a bunch of creepy Republicans in the House tried to halt the Act's renewal.  They did so under the ruse of a complaint over bilingual ballots.  Any toehold in their continuing struggle to reverse social gains of the 20th century.

The "sins of our fathers" did not end in 1865, the were begrudgingly forced to cease and desist one hundred years later, and they've pined for the good ole days of discrimination ever since.

White America does not understand the racist purging of blacks from New Orleans in the year since Hurricane Katrina.  I keep hearing, "Oh, they don't want to go back," and, "they're better off now than before." 

Denial is dangerous.  German citizens turned a blind eye to the pogroms, the ghettoes, and then the death camps.  Such a thing cannot be!  The Americans and the British hauled German villagers adjacent to the camps up to them after the liberation, and said, "See that?  Your government did that!  You didn't know, eh?  Well, know it now and know it forever!" 

I used to think a holocaust of any ethnic group would be impossible in America.  After Hurricane Katrina, I'm not so sure.  I see Americans denying atrocities our government is perpetuating in the post-Katrina Gulf region and it chills me to the bone!  Now is NOT the time to say, "Oh, there used to be racism in America, but there's not anymore, so quit complain,' black people!"  No sir, no ma'am, not the time at all!
>:(


Whites leave town and it is their fault and is called "white flight".

Blacks leave town and don't come back and it is the white's fault.

I think I see a pattern here.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/12/06 at 3:19 pm


Whites leave town and it is their fault and is called "white flight".

Blacks leave town and don't come back and it is the white's fault.

I think I see a pattern here.


Except whites deciding to move out of economically downturned areas and a population having their homes destroyed by the biggest natural disaster in our country's history and not being able to return aren't remotely comparable.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/12/06 at 4:00 pm


Except whites deciding to move out of economically downturned areas and a population having their homes destroyed by the biggest natural disaster in our country's history and not being able to return aren't remotely comparable.

That's why I said, "Denial is more than just a river in Egypt."  Let's deny racism exists.  Let's say racism is a red herring liberals use to control minorities and get their votes.  Let's be Rush Limbaugh!  Limbaugh took a cue from Ronald Reagan, let's not just lie to others, let's lie to ourselves too!  Don't waste our time with facts and logic, we have liberals and Democrats to blame!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/occasion14.gif

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/12/06 at 5:14 pm


That's why I said, "Denial is more than just a river in Egypt."  Let's deny racism exists.  Let's say racism is a red herring liberals use to control minorities and get their votes.  Let's be Rush Limbaugh!  Limbaugh took a cue from Ronald Reagan, let's not just lie to others, let's lie to ourselves too!  Don't waste our time with facts and logic, we have liberals and Democrats to blame!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/occasion14.gif


I think you're right. You get these types who want to deny it- but you know what? Almost every African-American I've heard speak about this subject has said, YES, institutional racism still exists in this country. According to the Right, they're all full of it and are just using it as an excuse to complain.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/12/06 at 8:23 pm


I think you're right. You get these types who want to deny it- but you know what? Almost every African-American I've heard speak about this subject has said, YES, institutional racism still exists in this country. According to the Right, they're all full of it and are just using it as an excuse to complain.

The ironic thing is, back in college, I was branded racist several times!  Each time it was because I objected to the intimidation tactics of an organization called "The Black Mass Communications Project."  I was music director of the radio station, and their whole raisinette seemed to be bullying us into putting more rap music on the air. The coded words were diversity and multiculturalism.  We devoted most of the day to Jazz, Blues, and World musics.  Jazz and Blues were invented by African-Americans, I argued, and nearly all the greatest artists in both genres are African-Americans!  Furthermore, our World music block broadcast everything from Congolese water drumming, to Colombian Salsa, to Balinese gamelan music.  Not the point.  I found out "diversity" meant "Rap," and "multiculturalism" meant "Rap."  Master P, there's "multiculturalism" for ya!
I find too often the charge of "racism" is made against the wrong people.  I was definitely the wrong person.  BMCP had the 9:00--midnight slot locked up for years!  It was theirs as long as they got the program applications in.  It wasn't enough.  The wanted more.  I wanted more World music and less platinum-selling rock and rap on our non-commercial station.  It didn't help that I said in a letter to the campus newspaper, "Gangsta rap is the lingua franca of delinquency."  It didn't help either that I was an older student, and referred to the Rock block as "noisy kids' stuff."  I was rather impolitic back then!  By the time I graduated, I was about as popular as beans on a bus trip!
::)
In retrospect, I could have done much more to keep quarreling to a minimum.  Live and learn.  On college campuses the term "racist" is tossed about for petty campus politics when it should be reserved for issues pertaining to real power.  The more energy that black student organization spent raging against jerks like me, the less energy they had to stir up sh*t at the administrative level.  Works out well for the top dogs and the fat cats!

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/13/06 at 4:38 am


The ironic thing is, back in college, I was branded racist several times!  Each time it was because I objected to the intimidation tactics of an organization called "The Black Mass Communications Project."  I was music director of the radio station, and their whole raisinette seemed to be bullying us into putting more rap music on the air. The coded words were diversity and multiculturalism.  We devoted most of the day to Jazz, Blues, and World musics.  Jazz and Blues were invented by African-Americans, I argued, and nearly all the greatest artists in both genres are African-Americans!  Furthermore, our World music block broadcast everything from Congolese water drumming, to Colombian Salsa, to Balinese gamelan music.  Not the point.  I found out "diversity" meant "Rap," and "multiculturalism" meant "Rap."  Master P, there's "multiculturalism" for ya!
I find too often the charge of "racism" is made against the wrong people.  I was definitely the wrong person.  BMCP had the 9:00--midnight slot locked up for years!  It was theirs as long as they got the program applications in.  It wasn't enough.  The wanted more.  I wanted more World music and less platinum-selling rock and rap on our non-commercial station.  It didn't help that I said in a letter to the campus newspaper, "Gangsta rap is the lingua franca of delinquency."  It didn't help either that I was an older student, and referred to the Rock block as "noisy kids' stuff."  I was rather impolitic back then!  By the time I graduated, I was about as popular as beans on a bus trip!
::)
In retrospect, I could have done much more to keep quarreling to a minimum.  Live and learn.  On college campuses the term "racist" is tossed about for petty campus politics when it should be reserved for issues pertaining to real power.  The more energy that black student organization spent raging against jerks like me, the less energy they had to stir up sh*t at the administrative level.  Works out well for the top dogs and the fat cats!



As an African American who attended UMass I gotta say I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I was an older student also and it used to drive me nuts when the Black Student Unions picked arguments that I thought, and still do think, were petty and misguided. So I was branded as "thinking white".  Too white, too black, I can't win for losing  ::)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/13/06 at 4:38 pm


As an African American who attended UMass I gotta say I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I was an older student also and it used to drive me nuts when the Black Student Unions picked arguments that I thought, and still do think, were petty and misguided. So I was branded as "thinking white".  Too white, too black, I can't win for losing   ::)

I'm glad you see where I'm coming from.  It may have been more militant when you were there.  Racial tensions on campus died down very quickly about five years ago.  It coincided with a certain vice-chancellor for student affairs getting his marching orders!  I suspected he provoked a lot of the conflictes...and then came in as the great resolver to be the hero of the day!  The BMCP organization exists now in name only.  They were a forced to be reckoned with for over twenty years.  Eventually they spent so much time fighting with others and fighting amongst themselves that they neglected to recruit new members, so the whole thing petered out by the late '90s!
::)
It's like the Rastafarians singing about "one people, one blood, one love, let's get together and feel alright."  Easier said than done!

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 09/13/06 at 4:56 pm


Excuse me?  I continue to pay a high price for the "sins of your fathers", the cost to you is considerably less. At least the "price" you pay has a return in privledge. The price I pay is a loss of freedoms generally taken for granted by you.
MY "fathers"?  MY "fathers" were immigrants and Indians.  Trust me, they "paid" PLENTY.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/13/06 at 5:08 pm


MY "fathers"?  MY "fathers" were immigrants and Indians.  Trust me, they "paid" PLENTY.

And my "fathers" were northern abolitionists.  I was not referring your individual lineage or my individual lineage.  Some of my ancestors came over on the Mayflower.  Others arrived after the Irish potato famine and were greeted by "No Irish Need Apply."  Immigrants got treated horrendously at times.  Immigrant indentured servants who became the Scots-Irish rabble that settled "hillbilly" country had a much lower life expectancy than native-born enslaved blacks. However, no race, creed, or ethnicity suffered more atrocities and injustice and for longer than African-Americans, and discrimination is on the rise again!

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/13/06 at 5:11 pm



MY "fathers"?  MY "fathers" were immigrants and Indians.  Trust me, they "paid" PLENTY.



As were mine.  I have slaves and slave holders, Which fathers are you talking about in your complaint ?

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/13/06 at 5:12 pm


The ironic thing is, back in college, I was branded racist several times!  Each time it was because I objected to the intimidation tactics of an organization called "The Black Mass Communications Project."  I was music director of the radio station, and their whole raisinette seemed to be bullying us into putting more rap music on the air. The coded words were diversity and multiculturalism.  We devoted most of the day to Jazz, Blues, and World musics.  Jazz and Blues were invented by African-Americans, I argued, and nearly all the greatest artists in both genres are African-Americans!  Furthermore, our World music block broadcast everything from Congolese water drumming, to Colombian Salsa, to Balinese gamelan music.  Not the point.  I found out "diversity" meant "Rap," and "multiculturalism" meant "Rap."  Master P, there's "multiculturalism" for ya!
I find too often the charge of "racism" is made against the wrong people.  I was definitely the wrong person. 


Of course racism is always a problem of "other people"   ::)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/13/06 at 5:16 pm


However, no race, creed, or ethnicity suffered more atrocities and injustice and for longer than African-Americans, and discrimination is on the rise again!


I suspect some aboriginal Native Americans would take issue with this statement.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 09/13/06 at 5:29 pm


And my "fathers" were northern abolitionists.  I was not referring your individual lineage or my individual lineage.  Some of my ancestors came over on the Mayflower.  Others arrived after the Irish potato famine and were greeted by "No Irish Need Apply."  Immigrants got treated horrendously at times.  Immigrant indentured servants who became the Scots-Irish rabble that settled "hillbilly" country had a much lower life expectancy than native-born enslaved blacks. However, no race, creed, or ethnicity suffered more atrocities and injustice and for longer than African-Americans, and discrimination is on the rise again!
I agree, African Americans have been treated horrendously in the past.....I never said they weren't.  However, look at your own example that you gave above about the BMCP.  Any time some of them are denied something they feel that the person denying them is a racist.  My point is that the term "racism" is tossed about too often.  It's people such as these that I suggest don't want "racism" to go away.  They used it to get what they wanted and there are some even today that do.  As I've said on other threads, I've known African Americans in the past who basically did whatever they wanted at work because they made it perfectly clear that the administration better have their i's dotted and their t's crossed or they'd sue for discrimination.  As I was walking out of class today, one girl who didn't get a good grade on her paper said to her friend "She just don't like blacks."  Nevermind the other girl (who was also black) got the equivalent of a "B." 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/13/06 at 11:08 pm


I suspect some aboriginal Native Americans would take issue with this statement.

Good point, sir!  Very good point indeed.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nono.gif


I agree, African Americans have been treated horrendously in the past.....I never said they weren't.  However, look at your own example that you gave above about the BMCP.  Any time some of them are denied something they feel that the person denying them is a racist.  My point is that the term "racism" is tossed about too often.  It's people such as these that I suggest don't want "racism" to go away.  They used it to get what they wanted and there are some even today that do.  As I've said on other threads, I've known African Americans in the past who basically did whatever they wanted at work because they made it perfectly clear that the administration better have their i's dotted and their t's crossed or they'd sue for discrimination.  As I was walking out of class today, one girl who didn't get a good grade on her paper said to her friend "She just don't like blacks."  Nevermind the other girl (who was also black) got the equivalent of a "B." 

And the other thing I caught hell for was insisting the BMCP members follow the required FCC regulations, on-air profanity policies, and studio conduct codes.  I called it basic courtesy.  They called it racism and so did my supervisor, who an embittered alum described to me as a "white guilt-infested lying sack of sh*t."

Again, only a misreading of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or William Julius Wilson would tell you "liberal" black leaders endorse blame whitey and slacking off.  I can see how people who wish to misread what the "liberal" black leaders say do so.  However, when an African-American student says, "she just don't like blacks," that's just another shuck the white racists throw her.
Less so at UMass, but more so at the smaller state college at which I attended my Freshman year, I saw them admit African-American students who could not read at a sixth grade level.  This made me mad enough to want to go bomb some offices on Beacon Hill.  Much easier it is to start "affirmative action" at the college level than it is to start "social justice," and "constitutional rights" where they belong...before the child is even born!  It's not just at the state level.  It's the whol godawful rotten-to-the-core racism at every level of government.  Who wants to look at poor neighborhoods and say, "Let's invest in the infrastructure so the citizens can help themselves"?  No, too expensive.  Billionaires might not get enough tax cuts.  Heaven forefend, elected government might have to tell corporate fiefdoms what to do again!  No, let's just write off Roxbury and Mattapan as "the ghetto."  Then we'll hand scholarships to state college to black students, even though we didn't invest enough in their neighborhoods and schools to allow these students to compete. 
Here's the set up:  African-American students are forced at state college to become militant and vigilant because angry white students from working class families say, "Wtf, I work my azz off 40 hours a week trying to pay to go to school here, and these ghetto boys get to come here for free and just hangout in the student union all day!"  Racism is bolstered because the angry white guys get the idea the state favors the semi-literate black students above them (none of whom were Einstein or Shakespeare, I might add). So the black students, intimidated by white resentment, band together in defensive posture.
The whole reason I wanted my radio station to insist on a uniform code of behavior and rules no matter how much the BMCP guys hollared is I didn't want to give anybody the excuse of using some ill-mannered hip-hop DJs as an excuse for resenting black students.  I didn't want to see racist attitudes perpetuated.  So they called me a racist, and I'm lucky my supervisor didn't fire me, because his supervisor was the aforementioned race-baiting vice-chancellor for student affairs!  Good frickin' grief!
::)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Tanya1976 on 09/13/06 at 11:24 pm

I think that historically Native Americans have suffered terribly with such factors as displacement, widespread genocide, and reservations (basically ghettos). Oh, and who can forget the "Thanksgiving" story creation. However, that being said, I have yet to read about the phenomenon called "driving while Native American". But I do know that the phenomenon called "I will say that I have a drop of Native American blood to appear less white and more hip" is so annoying!  ;D

But, which brings me to my point. Both groups have historically and continually remain to be the leading ones discriminated based on their race, particularly with violent and nonviolent means. So the one-up is ridiculous b/c both groups continue to subversively go through problems.

However, Jews are the most religiously discriminated and homosexual men are the most sexually-oriented discriminated group. I jjust wanted to include everyone!! I'm p.c. that way.  ;)


Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Tanya1976 on 09/13/06 at 11:28 pm


I think that historically Native Americans have suffered terribly with such factors as displacement, widespread genocide, and reservations (basically ghettos). Oh, and who can forget the "Thanksgiving" story creation. However, that being said, I have yet to read about the phenomenon called "driving while Native American". But I do know that the phenomenon called "I will say that I have a drop of Native American blood to appear less white and more hip" is so annoying!  ;D

But, which brings me to my point. Both groups have historically and continually remain to be the leading ones discriminated based on their race, particularly with violent and nonviolent means. So the one-up is ridiculous b/c both groups continue to subversively go through problems.

However, Jews are the most religiously discriminated and homosexual men are the most sexually-oriented discriminated group. I jjust wanted to include everyone!! I'm p.c. that way.  ;)



MY "fathers"?  MY "fathers" were immigrants and Indians.  Trust me, they "paid" PLENTY.


Your fathers did pay a cost as immigrants. However, it was low compared to those already here. In fact, I would say that those that descended from them benefitted from the socioeconomic-racial caste system that was created prior to their arrival. Once you realize that, everything else would be smooth sailing.


Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/14/06 at 2:40 pm


I think that historically Native Americans have suffered terribly with such factors as displacement, widespread genocide, and reservations (basically ghettos). Oh, and who can forget the "Thanksgiving" story creation. However, that being said, I have yet to read about the phenomenon called "driving while Native American". But I do know that the phenomenon called "I will say that I have a drop of Native American blood to appear less white and more hip" is so annoying!  ;D



Yeah, I know what you're saying here about people claiming Native American heritage, but I've read that the percentage of American Whites with non-white ancestry is actually a lot higher than most people realise. This includes African heritage too, not just Native American.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/14/06 at 3:18 pm


Yeah, I know what you're saying here about people claiming Native American heritage, but I've read that the percentage of American Whites with non-white ancestry is actually a lot higher than most people realise. This includes African heritage too, not just Native American.


Actually, with the advent of Ancestry.com and the like what you have is a large percentage of American Whites realize they have non-white ancestry, but they are loathe to admit it.  I have had at least two email conversations ended when making inquiries when I mentioned that the ancestor in common was listed as "Black" on the census. 

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/14/06 at 3:34 pm


I agree, African Americans have been treated horrendously in the past.....I never said they weren't.  However, look at your own example that you gave above about the BMCP.  Any time some of them are denied something they feel that the person denying them is a racist.  My point is that the term "racism" is tossed about too often.  It's people such as these that I suggest don't want "racism" to go away.  They used it to get what they wanted and there are some even today that do.  As I've said on other threads, I've known African Americans in the past who basically did whatever they wanted at work because they made it perfectly clear that the administration better have their i's dotted and their t's crossed or they'd sue for discrimination.  As I was walking out of class today, one girl who didn't get a good grade on her paper said to her friend "She just don't like blacks."  Nevermind the other girl (who was also black) got the equivalent of a "B." 


You have this one complaining that she didn't get a good grade because the teacher doesn't like blacks,  You never here a complaint against a rich kid in the Ivy League getting good grades because mumsy and daddy bought the grades with a mega-donation to the school just to get his/her lame under qualified butt into school.  Has anyone ever heard an white person complain about not getting job because "they had to give it to a black"?  These are the people want to perpetuate racism, they hate it that they can't walk into a job because it is the job their father, grandfather, and uncles did.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/14/06 at 4:14 pm


Has anyone ever heard an white person complain about not getting job because "they had to give it to a black"? 


Yes.  Particularly in reference to police officers, firefighters, and teachers.  Listen, dumb white guys have to blame somebody.  It can't be their fault.  Rush Limbaugh tells them every day that they are the Masters of the Universe.  If they can just keep the evil Skeletor liberals out of office, Castle Greyskull will be theirs again!
::)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/14/06 at 4:33 pm


Yes.  Particularly in reference to police officers, firefighters, and teachers.  Listen, dumb white guys have to blame somebody.  It can't be their fault.  Rush Limbaugh tells them every day that they are the Masters of the Universe.  If they can just keep the evil Skeletor liberals out of office, Castle Greyskull will be theirs again!
::)


;D ;D

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Tanya1976 on 09/14/06 at 5:13 pm


Yeah, I know what you're saying here about people claiming Native American heritage, but I've read that the percentage of American Whites with non-white ancestry is actually a lot higher than most people realise. This includes African heritage too, not just Native American.


Well everyone originated in Africa, that's the funny thing.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/14/06 at 5:16 pm


Well everyone originated in Africa, that's the funny thing.


That's why If they ask the question on a form, I write:

Race: Human

;)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/14/06 at 5:50 pm

We Are All Related In The Master Plan

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Tanya1976 on 09/14/06 at 10:22 pm


That's why If they ask the question on a form, I write:

Race: Human

;)


There ya go


We Are All Related In The Master Plan


So true, so true.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/14/06 at 11:36 pm

Well, many modern biologists now think that race is almost totally meaningless as far as human genetics.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/15/06 at 12:08 am


Well, many modern biologists now think that race is almost totally meaningless as far as human genetics.

Meanwhile modern Republicans are trying roll the clock back on Darwin.  It ain't gonna matter to racists if scientists demonstrate race is biologically meaningless.  Since when do racists and religious fanatics listen to logic?  That's what bugs me!
::)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/15/06 at 4:23 am


I think that historically Native Americans have suffered terribly with such factors as displacement, widespread genocide, and reservations (basically ghettos). Oh, and who can forget the "Thanksgiving" story creation. However, that being said, I have yet to read about the phenomenon called "driving while Native American". But I do know that the phenomenon called "I will say that I have a drop of Native American blood to appear less white and more hip" is so annoying!  ;D

But, which brings me to my point. Both groups have historically and continually remain to be the leading ones discriminated based on their race, particularly with violent and nonviolent means. So the one-up is ridiculous b/c both groups continue to subversively go through problems.

However, Jews are the most religiously discriminated and homosexual men are the most sexually-oriented discriminated group. I jjust wanted to include everyone!! I'm p.c. that way.  ;)





Whoo-hoo, I fit into the latter two categories! As a rule, I think Jews take the cake as being THE most discriminated-against group, ethnically and religiously, for the longest time, for millennia.

Actually, African-Americans substantially have alot of "Five Civilized Tribes" blood, which is why alot of African-Americans have Amerindian-ish features and skin color. This was because in S. Carolina and other states, there was a substantial slave trade in captured Native Americans in the 1700s led by other tribes (like, they would war against each other and sell the captives to the whites.) Some were sent to the West Indies, others stayed in the American South.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: 80s_cheerleader on 09/15/06 at 6:52 am


You have this one complaining that she didn't get a good grade because the teacher doesn't like blacks,  You never here a complaint against a rich kid in the Ivy League getting good grades because mumsy and daddy bought the grades with a mega-donation to the school just to get his/her lame under qualified butt into school.  Has anyone ever heard an white person complain about not getting job because "they had to give it to a black"?  These are the people want to perpetuate racism, they hate it that they can't walk into a job because it is the job their father, grandfather, and uncles did.
Yes I have. (oh, and btw, the teacher isn't white, she's Latina -and a hoot ;D)  I have MADE the comments (not about Ivy Leaguers, but about a girl whose daddy gave big bucks to the university, yet she couldn't even use a microwave ::))  I've also complained about student-athletes (both white and black)......heard about professors giving preferential treatment to whites/blacks, etc.  AFA the job situation, I've heard it both ways.....I've heard blacks complain that they didn't get a job because they were black, whites complain because they were white, hispanics complain because they were hispanic, women complain because they were women and even men complain because they were men.  Many people, when they don't get a job, won't admit that it was because they were underqualified, they don't want to admit their OWN deficiencies, they want to blame it on someone else.  If someone is of a different race/color/sex, that's just convenience.

Most people cannot begin to understand the discrimination others have suffered if they aren't the same race/sex/creed/whatever.  And, no matter what they say, those who are "different" aren't going to see it the same.  A man isn't going to see discrimination against a woman because he's a man....a white against a black.....etc.  I've experienced it multiple times because I'm a woman (last night was the most recent).  Whenever I take my kids to a sports practice and offer to help, I'm looked at as a "woman".  Last night, I offered to help my oldest's baseball coach and he said "He didn't want me to get hurt", then proceeded to ask the other kids if their dads were coming "to help".  Even when I explain that I don't mind, I've played ball my entire life, they still view me with skepticism.  My husband, being a man, didn't see the problem.  As the old adage goes:  "Walk a mile in my shoes....."

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/15/06 at 7:24 am


Well, many modern biologists now think that race is almost totally meaningless as far as human genetics.


Then those biologists are in denial.  There are PLENTY of legitimate genetic differences amongst the races that manifest themselves in health care.

Blacks are MUCH more prone to have high blood pressure and early heart disease, whether poor or rich.  Sickle cell anemia is largely a black person's disease.  There are any number of hereditary diseases that are more'less prone based on race.

There is such a difference in black/white heart health that some drug companies have clinically tested a different heart medicine regimen specifically targeted at blacks to better effectiveness than the "generic" treatments.  Interestingly some political wanks hace cried "discrimination!".

Of course factors of poverty wich affect more black and hispanic populations also negatively affect health, etc but those are not genetic factors.

Does not mean any race is "better" than another but there are clear racial genetic differences that affect health.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/15/06 at 7:32 am


I think that historically Native Americans have suffered terribly with such factors as displacement, widespread genocide, and reservations (basically ghettos). Oh, and who can forget the "Thanksgiving" story creation. However, that being said, I have yet to read about the phenomenon called "driving while Native American". But I do know that the phenomenon called "I will say that I have a drop of Native American blood to appear less white and more hip" is so annoying!  ;D



DWNA (driving while Native American) is alive and well in areas close to Indian reservations.  The old movie "Billy Jack" was not too far off the mark (except for Billy's heroics which were over the top).

As to people being "annoying" claiming what race they are, Native Americans do not have any corner on that market at all.  Halle Berry and Mariah Carey identify themselves as black/African american while they each are at least 50% "white".  I know people who are like 25% Italian who make it apoint to say they are "Sicilian". And what is the problem with identifying as one of your ancestral lines?  Not a biggie IMHO.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Tanya1976 on 09/15/06 at 11:10 am


DWNA (driving while Native American) is alive and well in areas close to Indian reservations.  The old movie "Billy Jack" was not too far off the mark (except for Billy's heroics which were over the top).

As to people being "annoying" claiming what race they are, Native Americans do not have any corner on that market at all.  Halle Berry and Mariah Carey identify themselves as black/African american while they each are at least 50% "white".  I know people who are like 25% Italian who make it apoint to say they are "Sicilian". And what is the problem with identifying as one of your ancestral lines?  Not a biggie IMHO.


Well they are black regardless of the 50%. African-Americans are mixed anyway, so they are not out of line. We come in all shades, regardless of our parentage. We are just one big clique!!

I'm sure there are incidences of it. However, the scale is miniscule compared to driving while black and driving while hispanic.

However, what I was referring to are those who claimed another history and there's no incidence at all.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/15/06 at 12:09 pm



I'm sure there are incidences of it. However, the scale is miniscule compared to driving while black and driving while hispanic.



Miniscule unless you happen to be Native American in or near a reservation...

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/15/06 at 1:56 pm


Then those biologists are in denial.  There are PLENTY of legitimate genetic differences amongst the races that manifest themselves in health care.



I don't buy it. I think most of these "differences" are related to historical differences in lifestyle.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: LyricBoy on 09/15/06 at 4:05 pm


I don't buy it. I think most of these "differences" are related to historical differences in lifestyle.


Ah yes, the old "race has absolutely no relevance to anything whatsoever" argument.  ::)

People of African descent tend to have broad noses and bigger lips and of course dark skin.  Why would anybody expect that the differences would be stopped at "cosmetic" alone?

Chinese have "yellow" skin and tend to have "squinty" eyes.  You mean that the differences somehow miraculously stopped there and there are no other differences that might lead to more propensity for a disease (or less propensity) ?

Race is a genetic situation.  Why should anybody NOT expect that those same genetics cause real and significant medical differences.

ALERT:  The post I have just made is NOT implying that any race is better/worse than any other.  Just that there ARE differences.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/15/06 at 4:26 pm


Then those biologists are in denial.  There are PLENTY of legitimate genetic differences amongst the races that manifest themselves in health care.

Blacks are MUCH more prone to have high blood pressure and early heart disease, whether poor or rich.  Sickle cell anemia is largely a black person's disease.  There are any number of hereditary diseases that are more'less prone based on race.

There is such a difference in black/white heart health that some drug companies have clinically tested a different heart medicine regimen specifically targeted at blacks to better effectiveness than the "generic" treatments.  Interestingly some political wanks hace cried "discrimination!".

Of course factors of poverty wich affect more black and hispanic populations also negatively affect health, etc but those are not genetic factors.

Does not mean any race is "better" than another but there are clear racial genetic differences that affect health.

Ah yes, the old "race has absolutely no relevance to anything whatsoever" argument.  ::)

People of African descent tend to have broad noses and bigger lips and of course dark skin.  Why would anybody expect that the differences would be stopped at "cosmetic" alone?

Chinese have "yellow" skin and tend to have "squinty" eyes.  You mean that the differences somehow miraculously stopped there and there are no other differences that might lead to more propensity for a disease (or less propensity) ?

Race is a genetic situation.  Why should anybody NOT expect that those same genetics cause real and significant medical differences.

ALERT:  The post I have just made is NOT implying that any race is better/worse than any other.  Just that there ARE differences.


All these genetic traits are not exclusive and they are passed on generationally.  For the categorization of race there would have to be markers that do not have the ability to be passed between say, a person from Iceland mating with a person from the Kalahari.  There aren't any genes that are exclusive and non transferable....My brother...

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/15/06 at 4:43 pm


Ah yes, the old "race has absolutely no relevance to anything whatsoever" argument.   ::)

People of African descent tend to have broad noses and bigger lips and of course dark skin.  Why would anybody expect that the differences would be stopped at "cosmetic" alone?

Chinese have "yellow" skin and tend to have "squinty" eyes.  You mean that the differences somehow miraculously stopped there and there are no other differences that might lead to more propensity for a disease (or less propensity) ?

Race is a genetic situation.  Why should anybody NOT expect that those same genetics cause real and significant medical differences.

ALERT:  The post I have just made is NOT implying that any race is better/worse than any other.  Just that there ARE differences.

Sickel Cell Anemia is quite similar to Thalassemia, which affects Greeks, Italians, Asiatic Indians, Asians, Africans, African-Americans, as well as Caribbean and Hispanic Peoples.  Thalassemia is reputed to be a "Greek disease," probably because of the root word.  Then you have diseases such as Tay-Sachs and Creutzfeldt-Jakob diseases, which affect primarily Jewish people.  There are some diseases that are discretely ethnic, but these are very minor considering diseases as a whole.

Heredity (regardless of race) and environment are much stronger indicators.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/15/06 at 4:49 pm

Don't forget what happened to Jimmy the Greek.  Jimmy said blacks were genetically superior to whites and was banished for life from the public arena.  Pat Buchanan has suggested blacks are genetically inferior to whites several times in the past 20 years, and we still have to put up with him!
::)

What Jimmy said cut both ways.  On the one hand he was indeed saying African-Americans are genetically better athletes than white Americans, but the way he explained it was denigrating, describing blacks as historically "bred" like livestock.  And why was everybody so shocked that a bookie called "Jimmy the Greek" had some unenlightened views on race?
:D

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/15/06 at 4:56 pm


Sickel Cell Anemia is quite similar to Thalassemia, which affects Greeks, Italians, Asiatic Indians, Asians, Africans, African-Americans, as well as Caribbean and Hispanic Peoples.  Thalassemia is reputed to be a "Greek disease," probably because of the root word.  Then you have diseases such as Tay-Sachs and Creutzfeldt-Jakob diseases, which affect primarily Jewish people.  There are some diseases that are discretely ethnic, but these are very minor considering diseases as a whole.

Heredity (regardless of race) and environment are much stronger indicators.


Actually, diseases tend to spread due to inbreeding. Jews are horribly inbred, since we tended to have high numbers of children, a higher percentage of whom survived than the European average, and a small gene pool. Which is why diseases like Crohn's Disease, colon cancer, Creutzfeldt-Jakob, Tay-Sachs, etc. are more prominent among Ashkenazi Jews. And yet, Tay-Sachs is also prominent among other inbred groups like French-Canadians and Mennonites.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/15/06 at 5:14 pm


Actually, diseases tend to spread due to inbreeding. Jews are horribly inbred, since we tended to have high numbers of children, a higher percentage of whom survived than the European average, and a small gene pool. Which is why diseases like Crohn's Disease, colon cancer, Creutzfeldt-Jakob, Tay-Sachs, etc. are more prominent among Ashkenazi Jews. And yet, Tay-Sachs is also prominent among other inbred groups like French-Canadians and Mennonites.

Isn't the Amish gene pool pretty shallow too?
:-\\

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/15/06 at 5:16 pm


Isn't the Amish gene pool pretty shallow too?
:-\\



I believe it is.  I don't know a whole lot about the Amish culture, but I believe they allow the marriage of first cousins.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: danootaandme on 09/15/06 at 5:20 pm


Isn't the Amish gene pool pretty shallow too?
:-\\


Right up there with the Royals.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Foo Bar on 09/15/06 at 10:01 pm


Actually, diseases tend to spread due to inbreeding. Jews are horribly inbred, since we tended to have high numbers of children, a higher percentage of whom survived than the European average, and a small gene pool. Which is why diseases like Crohn's Disease, colon cancer, Creutzfeldt-Jakob, Tay-Sachs, etc. are more prominent among Ashkenazi Jews.


Not entirely a loss. All of these diseases involve the brain. 

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html

If everyone hates you, nobody lets you join their army.  If everyone hates you, nobody grants you a title of nobility.  If everyone hates you, nobody lets you farm their land for you as a serf.  That pretty much leaves "trader", "lawyer", or "moneychanger" as the only jobs open to you -- and these were low-status occupations during the Middle Ages.  The only members of your group most likely to reproduce are the ones that succeed in those lowly brainy occupations.  600 years later, voila.

We may be seeing the same sort of thing in Silicon Valley, RTP, and other geek cities today.  There's a high correlation between Asperger's syndrome and aptitude at the sorts of high-mental-focus tasks that are required in the tech industry.  There's also a high correlation between Asperger's and autism -- and by a staggering coincidence, cities with high proportions of adult Asperger's folks tend to have higher than average rates of autistic children.  The genes that make two Aspies likely to move to the same city, meet, mate, and start a family... can do really nasty things to their offspring.

Our (western) culture doesn't permit us to seriously investigate the possibility because it offends our egalitarian sensibilities.

Cultures that don't share these sensibilities will beat us to the evolutionary punch and to the stars.  Or it'll be a case of the early bird getting the worm, but the second mouse getting the cheese:  they'll wipe themselves out, we'll learn from their mistakes, and leapfrog them.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/15/06 at 10:33 pm


Not entirely a loss. All of these diseases involve the brain. 

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002812.html

If everyone hates you, nobody lets you join their army.  If everyone hates you, nobody grants you a title of nobility.  If everyone hates you, nobody lets you farm their land for you as a serf.  That pretty much leaves "trader", "lawyer", or "moneychanger" as the only jobs open to you -- and these were low-status occupations during the Middle Ages.  The only members of your group most likely to reproduce are the ones that succeed in those lowly brainy occupations.  600 years later, voila.

We may be seeing the same sort of thing in Silicon Valley, RTP, and other geek cities today.  There's a high correlation between Asperger's syndrome and aptitude at the sorts of high-mental-focus tasks that are required in the tech industry.  There's also a high correlation between Asperger's and autism -- and by a staggering coincidence, cities with high proportions of adult Asperger's folks tend to have higher than average rates of autistic children.  The genes that make two Aspies likely to move to the same city, meet, mate, and start a family... can do really nasty things to their offspring.

Our (western) culture doesn't permit us to seriously investigate the possibility because it offends our egalitarian sensibilities.

Cultures that don't share these sensibilities will beat us to the evolutionary punch and to the stars.  Or it'll be a case of the early bird getting the worm, but the second mouse getting the cheese:  they'll wipe themselves out, we'll learn from their mistakes, and leapfrog them.

Sure, foo-foo, the Jews, the intellectuals, and the communists in our midst hinder our gene stock.  Where have we heard that hogwash before? 
Egalitarian sensibilities, my Irish azz!  The only people with the egalitarian sensibilities in the U.S. these get called "liberals," and those who control the levers of power are fixin' to wipe us out too!



Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Foo Bar on 09/16/06 at 1:43 am


Sure, foo-foo, the Jews, the intellectuals, and the communists in our midst hinder our gene stock. 


RTFpaper.  The paper suggests that because the past 600+ years (more like 4000, but the last 600 are genetically relevant due to the Black Death) of being dumped upon by ... in the words of Tom Lehrer, "and everybody hates the Jews!" ... dumped upon by everybody, Ashkenazi Jews are smarter than the general population.  The genetic diseases particular to this subset of people happen to coincide with fatty tissue in the brain. 

Fortunately, I'm neither a Nazi nor even in the gene pool.  Unfortunately, I'm neither Jewish, nor Aspie. I gotta make do with what my roll of the genetic dice gave me.

But for the record -- since you're occasionally so blinded by partisanship that you've missed the point -- the culture to which I was tacitly referring as eclipsing ours was the Chinese.  They'll either wipe the floor with western civilization (or make a mistake that dooms them to extinction, but I'm betting they'll beat us fair and square) because they have no aversion to genetic engineering.  I think the track record of the past 6 years on genetic engineering speaks for itself, and I'm disgusted.  The only veto this President has issued in the past 6 years has been to veto biotechnology research, and I'm betting my money that it's the most important area of economic growth we're going to see over the next 5-10 years.  The fact that it's also the gateway to the next phase of human evolution is merely a delightful side effect, as I'll be wormfood decades before humanity gets the benefits.  The only thing the present administration's biotech policy has ensured is that an American human won't be the one to unlock those secrets, and that a company based in either China, Japan, or the former USSR (hey, we haven't heard much from their bioengineers, and they were very busy making up for decades of Lysenkoist idiocy during the latter phases of the cold war) will reap the profits - and the Nobel prizes - for the work.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/16/06 at 2:04 am

OK, then, no Nazis.  But I don't see where you attribute anything the Bushies do to "egalitarian sensibilities."  When the time comes for the American overclass to avail themselves of genetic-enhancing thecnology, they will go and get it where ever it is.  They don't want you or me to have access to genetic advancements that might allow our descendents to compete with theirs.  Hence, it makes sense for their agenda to ban it in this country.  Little people like us are bound by nation.  The international corporatists, such as the Bush family, are not.  Look at the damage they've done with genetic duds such as George, pere, and George, fils.  Imagine what they will be able to do when they can raise their IQs to 300 and and their longevity to as many years!
:o

Anyway, "blinded by partisanship" is erroneous.  The Dems are no heroes of mine.  They can't save us.  This country is going to die over the next 50 years.  The Dems might be able to provide us with more palliative care than the Repugs!
::)

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: Sister Morphine on 09/16/06 at 2:10 am


Anyway, "blinded by partisanship" is erroneous.  The Dems are no heroes of mine.  They can't save us.  This country is going to die over the next 50 years.  The Dems might be able to provide us with more palliative care than the Repugs!
::)



Oh it is?  Really now.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/16/06 at 2:28 am

[quote author=

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/16/06 at 3:01 am

[quote author=

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: deadrockstar on 09/16/06 at 3:07 am

I think the horrors of Katrina, as well the country's visceral reaction to the pro-Immigrant protests are indicative of things to come. As minority populations grow and the job market becomes harder to succeed in, the income gap grows, the white and native-born majority feel themselves to be increasingly under siege, and the natives white or black feel under siege economically by the immigrants..

If the economy were to ever collapse this country could be in for hell. The only thing that stops all the social divisions in this country from producing mass unrest and violence is economic vitality. The chance to do well. Once everybody sees the American dream dissipating who do you think they'll take it out on? Well if they're native they might target foreigners, if they're black they'll target whites, if they're rich they're going to be scared sh*tlss. America won't be so nice once people don't have their plasma TVs and SUVs to play with.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: velvetoneo on 09/16/06 at 11:30 am

I think that the country's economy will collapse fairly soon, and we'll be headed for a great depression on the level of the 1930s. The illegal immigrants will be targeted on a massive level by white, black, and uniformly native-born blue-collar workers and may very well be driven out of the country through rioting and mob violence.

Subject: Re: Bill Cosby says it best: Don't Blame the Whites...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 09/16/06 at 1:34 pm


I think the horrors of Katrina, as well the country's visceral reaction to the pro-Immigrant protests are indicative of things to come. As minority populations grow and the job market becomes harder to succeed in, the income gap grows, the white and native-born majority feel themselves to be increasingly under siege, and the natives white or black feel under siege economically by the immigrants..

If the economy were to ever collapse this country could be in for hell. The only thing that stops all the social divisions in this country from producing mass unrest and violence is economic vitality. The chance to do well. Once everybody sees the American dream dissipating who do you think they'll take it out on? Well if they're native they might target foreigners, if they're black they'll target whites, if they're rich they're going to be scared sh*tlss. America won't be so nice once people don't have their plasma TVs and SUVs to play with.

Time to put corporate oligarchy and neoliberal economics to beddy-bye!  Say your prayers and switch of the light, supply-siders.  Time to teach our children the three R's--
Ronald Reagan was (w)Rong!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/znaika.gif

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