We shorties also have a longer life expectancy and we can hide more easily!

I constantly got razzed on the playground for being tiny. I was always the second-shortest guy on my class...the other short guys in my class (S. Cohen, J. Woodruff, and N. Kosalka), and by that, I mean under "average American female height short", and I have all developed humorous strategies to fend it off. But it is a great impediment to us should we ever try and do anything with our lives. I'm 5'2", and round up to get to that a little, and I'll probably only be 5'4". And all these guys, may I add, are basically "never been kissed" at 16 (including myself.) My dad had to go to a growth doctor back in the '60s, who gave him testosterone, and it just ended up being an impediment to him, since it made his bones close earlier. He owned a pair of elevator shoes, and despite being the New York City HS debating champion for years running in the '70s, he ended up only being a legal writer and not the brilliant courtroom lawyer and rainmaker he could've been! And developed self-esteem problems to boot! And didn't lose his virginity until well into his 20s! Of course, living in the NE, it's a little easier for us. But still.

Hey red!  Hey carrot-top!  Somebody get the hose, there's a fire over there!  Nyuk nyuk nyuk!  Are you telling me adults have treated you this way?



Yes, in the past they have. It didn't happen often, but twice before I've been summarily denied the chance to even work at a job b/c the interviewer had some sort of hang-up with my hair color. Looking back at it now, and some of the questions that were asked of me, I suppose they had a problem with Irish people. As far back as I've traced my lineage, I've found no one from Ireland.



Sure, I couldn't be a state cop at my height....but the thing is I never wanted to be a state cop, so....
Join the basketball squad, same thing! What do I care?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/dontknow.gif

I know there are short guys who have wanted to do both and felt it was discrimination.  I don't think they have much of a case.  Basketball for obvious reasons (although there was that one pro-basketball player who was like 5' 4," can't remember his name). 



Spud Webb was 5'6'. Here's a list of active NBA players under 6'. So, my above comment stands corrected. Average height is also probably 6'6", not 6'2"

I don't think the examples you cite are discrimination either.

I can't remember his name, but there was a NBA player who couldn't be a pilot because he was too tall.



The law enforcement issue.  I don't know.  Law enforcement is not a social experiment.  I have met some tough guys who are 5' 3" and no 6' 3" guy in his right mind would go toe to toe with them!  The thing is the cops are dealing with violent, primitive-minded criminals.  An officer who is 6' 5" is going to automatically give violent drunk more pause than a 5' 5" cop, and that could mean the difference between life and death.  Just the way it goes.



Yes, LE is different in that respect. It also doesn't make much difference what size the officer is because many encounters require 2+ officers to safely take someone down. One-on-one situations are probably the most dangerous regardless the officer's size. I know your general disdain for LE, but cops that rely more on muscle than brains are the ones you see in training films getting killed for routine stops.

The baddest dude in my high school wasn't on the football team, but the wrestling team. He was 5'6" tall, but I've seen him take out guys much bigger and taller than he was. He was also deaf. But the biggest reason he was repected was his positive attitude and confidence. He had no problem with the girls either.



The military is interesting.  I think physical fitness is more important than height.  And as you say, the cut-offs occur when height is extreme in either direction.  In many battlefield scenarios, it might be better to be short than to be tall.  In other combat situations, the opposite is probably true.  I think the Marines have a stricter height minimum than the other branches.  I would have joined the service earlier in life, at a time when I just had no direction, but I didn't for health reasons, nothing to do with height.


Indeed, fitness is more important than height or weight, but they still have guidelines for both (BMI). I've worked with several Navy groups going over to Iraq, mostly for customs work. Even training in July in Virginia didn't fully prepare them for the conditions over there.

When they get fitted for body armor, I can tell you that a tall/big guy's gear is substantially heavier than a shorter/smaller man's. Even with the chance of increased muscle mass for the bigger guy, having 20lbs+ more stuff to lug around isn't going to be any fun.

Muggsy Bogues was the guy I was thinking of, 5' 3."
Imagine being 5' 3" in the NBA?  Jesus, you'd better have something mighty special to offer out there on the court!
;D

The funny thing is, the one time I got arrested arrested the arresting officer was very polite and courteous.  It helped that I wasn't really a criminal, but just a poor slob who made a mistake, but more that I was polite and cooperative.  I was driving with a revoked license (didn't know it was revoked, long story) so the cop was required to arrest me.  At that point, a lot of "offenders" will start arguing, "Oh c'mon, I didn't do nothin.'"  Often times the arresting officer has no discretion.  He couldn't let me go because I'm a nice guy.  It would be his azz on the pan!  I've had some cops be polite, and others be total d!cks.  My problem with LE is more with the institution itself than with street cops.  Those guys have to follow order and procedure to the letter, or they'll have a f*ck of a lot of explaining to do. 

Max, please don't think I was being insensitive because I wasn't really. I know that short people are disrespected every day.

Maybe in some subconscious way a tall man represents protection for a short girl like me (5'2, btw). My hubby is 6'0. Although I must say with a mouth like mine and the great usage of my two fists, I do pretty well protecting myself.

List of Famous Short Men:

4'6"-
Alexander Pope

4'10"-
J.M. Barrie
Robert Reich

4'11"-
Immanuel Kant
Henri de Toulouse Lautrec
Engelbert Dolfuss
Joseph Schmidt (opera singer)

5'0"-
Danny DeVito
Jean-Paul Sartre

5'1"-
John Keats
Genghis Khan
Victor Emmanuel III of Italy

5'2"-
Yasser Arafat
Honore de Balzac
Andrew Carnegie
Yuri Gagarin
Prince
Harry Houdini
Fiorello LaGuardia
Franz Schubert
Dudley Moore
Lu Xun

5'3"-
Truman Capote
Mahatma Gandhi
Nikita Khrushchev
Kim Jong-il
Louis B. Mayer
Mickey Rooney
Paul Simon
Voltaire
Henrik Ibsen

5'4"-
Sammy Davis Jr.
Friz Freleng
Seth Green
Burgess Meredith
James Madison
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Joe Pesci
Pablo Picasso
Martin Scorsese
Haile Selassie
Joseph Stalin
Frankie Valli
Eddie Fisher
Bob Hoskins


5'5"-
Akihito
Alexander the Great
Jason Alexander
Woody Allen
Roberto Benigni
Silvio Berlusconi
Mel Brooks
James Cagney
Charlie Chaplin
Lou Costello
Ahmet Ertegun
William Faulkner
Newt Gingrich
Hirohito
Nathan Lane
Spike Lee
Vladimir Lenin
Sidney Lumet
Audie Murphy
Roman Polanski
Peter Lorre
Edward G. Robinson
J.R.R. Tolkien
Josef von Sternberg
Henry Winkler

Max, please don't think I was being insensitive because I wasn't really. I know that short people are disrespected every day.

Maybe in some subconscious way a tall man represents protection for a short girl like me (5'2, btw). My hubby is 6'0. Although I must say with a mouth like mine and the great usage of my two fists, I do pretty well protecting myself.

No, I didn't think you were being insensitive, honestly.  I know what you're saying.

Even if you were, I brought up the topic, so I'd have nothng to gripe about!
;)

I found it funny that some people thought 5'7" isn't short.

5'7" is short for a male! At least here in Texas where I live. Unless I'm in the barrio...:D

Muggsy Bogues was the guy I was thinking of, 5' 3."
Imagine being 5' 3" in the NBA?  Jesus, you'd better have something mighty special to offer out there on the court!
;D

The funny thing is, the one time I got arrested arrested the arresting officer was very polite and courteous.  It helped that I wasn't really a criminal, but just a poor slob who made a mistake, but more that I was polite and cooperative.



Polite and cooperative have gotten me out of many a potential traffic tickets. I've even blatantly run a red light before (though I didn't speed to beat it), and got pulled by a state trooper. He comes up to the window and yells in a DI-toned voice "Do you know what red means?", to which I replied in an equally loud, boot camp recruit fear-styled voice "It means stop, sir!"

Most of the times I got pulled over were on my motorcyles. All the cops, save one time, that pulled me just gave me warnings. Most were curious about the machine, and my slightly excessive speeds gave them a reason to pull me, give a lecture/safety warning, chat, and break the monotomy that is 3rd shift cruising.

Cops can and will let some things go. But yeah, you aren't going to talk your way out of something more serious like a DUI or revocation.



  I was driving with a revoked license (didn't know it was revoked, long story) so the cop was required to arrest me.  At that point, a lot of "offenders" will start arguing, "Oh c'mon, I didn't do nothin.'"  Often times the arresting officer has no discretion.  He couldn't let me go because I'm a nice guy.  It would be his azz on the pan!  I've had some cops be polite, and others be total d!cks.  My problem with LE is more with the institution itself than with street cops.  Those guys have to follow order and procedure to the letter, or they'll have a f*ck of a lot of explaining to do. 


BTW, here's a great tip: Don't commit traffic violations in the rain. I've been told by every cop I've met that if they have to get wet, you are getting a ticket!

Back to the topic, I wonder what other countries, like Japan for instance, consider short?

Here, here!
That's the way it goes.  Short women are more attracted to tall men just as tall women are.  I can't comment the reasons for your personal preference, but I know that a lot of short women feel insecure so they need some big dude to protect them.  I'm not saying that's what you do, Tanya, you don't seem like the type.  It's just something I've noticed.  Even wimpy pussball tall men who are scared of their own shadows have it easier!  There's no "cop out" here.  I am talking about my imperical experience of the way life is! Most of the "short women" I know are not married to "tall men" (well, the men are tall compared to them ;)).  The tallest I know is my best friend's 2nd husband, who is 6'+, but her ex-husband was only about 5'8".
  Since I'm only as tall as the average American woman is, a great deal of women are taller than I am. Actually, only 1/2 of the women are taller than you ;)
I found it funny that some people thought 5'7" isn't short.

5'7" is short for a male! At least here in Texas where I live. Unless I'm in the barrio...:D
If you're "short" for a man being 2" "off" the average, then I guess I'm considered "tall" since I'm also 2"+ "off" the average.  I don't think 90% of people you ask would consider me "tall".  The other thing you have to take into account is your heritage.  Studies have shown that different "races" have different average heights.  I mean, look at most Asian people.  Their average height for a man is something like 5'3" or 5'4" or something like that.  You also have to take into account your age.  The "average male" height is for something like a 35-40 year old man, I think (I could be wrong) and if you look at almost any "ideal height/weight" chart and it's a curve, not a straight line...... Here's a site that has height/weight charts for different ethnicities.


I think alot of the "discrimination" is based on self-esteem.  I'd like to know how many of the "studies" done to prove the discrimination have also interviewed people to see how they feel about themselves?  Most of the really short/tall people I've know have had crappy self-esteem.  Believe it or not, many "really tall" men (over 6'3 or so) are just as self-conscious as really "short" men.

I also have to say I don't see the problem with someone saying they prefer someone who is taller over someone who is shorter.  Why is that any different than saying what color eyes/hair/complexion you prefer?  Now, on a man being called a pig for saying he prefers someone with "DD breasts", it's because breasts are something sexual.  They don't call them "tittie bars" for nothing ;)

Personally, I couldn't care less how tall/short/thin/heavy someone is.  My husband is slightly overweight, only a couple inches taller than me and if you put the two of us in a room of people, we're probably 2 of the last people you'd put together, but I love him just as much as I would if he was a "perfect man". 

Polite and cooperative have gotten me out of many a potential traffic tickets. I've even blatantly run a red light before (though I didn't speed to beat it), and got pulled by a state trooper. He comes up to the window and yells in a DI-toned voice "Do you know what red means?", to which I replied in an equally loud, boot camp recruit fear-styled voice "It means stop, sir!"


LOL! I've mentioned this numerous times.  This shouldn't be a factor, but it is.  I have the clean cut look.  I don't look like a bong-toking f.u. pig commie fa*g jukie!  It helps to wear a crew cut and say "Yes sir, no ma'am."  Friends of mine with long hair, tattoos, piercings, and whatnot have gotten tickets for lesser violations than I have gotten warnings for!  I don't think it's fair to judge a book by its cover.  For all the cop knows, I could be the next ex-marine white separatist Timothy McVeigh-type with a trunkfull of explosives!  (In which case they'd escort me to the station, pin a medal on me, and say, "you're our boy!')
;D

They don't call them "tittie bars" for nothing ;)



Also known as p*ssy bars, nudie bars, nookie bars, shake shacks, strip joints, pink cabarets, and of course "Gentlemen's Clubs".

;D ;D

Also known as p*ssy bars, nudie bars, nookie bars, shake shacks, strip joints, pink cabarets, and of course "Gentlemen's Clubs".

;D ;D



I prefer "adult entertainment venues".

List of Famous Short Men:



I have seen such lists, but not one with Newt Gingrich.  Gosh, I wish Newt was tall.  If a short man is going to have a stellar political career, I'd rather he not be an azzole like Newt!

Some people will point out that in previous centuries the average man was shorter in stature than nowadays.  This is true, but exaggerated.  In 1800 the average height of the American male was around 5'6," rather than 5' 10."  
We were better off when looks were less important and ideas more important when considering political candidates.  Abraham Lincoln was 6'4," but he couldn't get elected today, not even if he shaved the beard.  He had Marfanz syndrome.  He was really awkward and gangling, and had very odd physical attributes.  
FDR couldn't get elected today.  He was in a wheelchair.  Can you imagine the pundits and focus groups wringing their hands about that today?  "How can a man in a wheelchair project the authority to lead the free world?"
Well, he did.  And he did it far better than any of the jackweeds we've got vying for the office nowadays!
::)

Also known as p*ssy bars, nudie bars, nookie bars, shake shacks, strip joints, pink cabarets, and of course "Gentlemen's Clubs".

;D ;D

We had this dork as the manager of our radio station one time, he liked to call them "boobie bars."  He asked me, "can you say 'boobie bar' on the air?"  I said,
"Yeah, but who wants to?"

BTW, don't aks me how I know but I know---
The ones called "Gentleman's Clubs" are overpriced, lame, and boring!
:-\\

LOL! I've mentioned this numerous times.  This shouldn't be a factor, but it is.  I have the clean cut look.  I don't look like a bong-toking f.u. pig commie fa*g jukie!


;D


It helps to wear a crew cut and say "Yes sir, no ma'am." 


I have long hair, BUT, I do have good manners. Even some of the right-wing teachers I had back in high school who thought I was the reddest little commie in the Western hemisphere, would complement me on my manners. I come across as a lot more brash on the internets, but in real life I'm all "yes sir no ma'am".

I come across as a lot more brash on the internets, but in real life I'm all "yes sir no ma'am".



Southern gentleman?  Hot.

[quote author=

Beth, I'm not that kind of guy! :o




You're not?  Hmmm.

[quote author=

Nah, I'm way more man-pretty than hot.

;D



Man-pretty?  LOL....interesting turn of phrase.

Now for the other side of the coin. I happen to be 6'3", and I can tell you from personal experience that my height doesn't automatically give me "alpha male" status, as some of you may believe, nor do I feel that it gives me a significant advantage when it comes to dating. I've had self-esteem issues for most of my life, and it's only been within the last couple of years that I've developed enough confidence to approach women. Hell, I'm still shy a lot of the time.
  Max, I've always respected your opinions and your intellect but I simply don't buy this whole height discrimination thing. I have a hard time believing that there's actually been men who have gone into job interviews and done well but, afterwards, some evil corporate types have gotten together and said, "Well, this guy seems qualified enough for the position, but dammit, he's too short." I'm just not buying it.
    About a year ago, I got into this same discussion with a (since banned) member named Harmonica, whom some of you may remember. He too was short in stature and was making similar complaints to me and I repeated to him a quote (the source of which I can't remember) which summed up my feelings on this whole issue: "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." Believe me, I've met plenty of guys who are much shorter than me who I would not f*ck with.
    Honestly, I think you all need to quit your whining. Your height has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with how much respect people give you. And before you all start flaming me I'll leave you with three words:

JOE. FREAKIN'. PESCI.

http://www.djfl.de/entertainment/stars/j/joe_pesci_01.jpg

Now for the other side of the coin. I happen to be 6'3", and I can tell you from personal experience that my height doesn't automatically give me "alpha male" status, as some of you may believe, nor do I feel that it gives me a significant advantage when it comes to dating. I've had self-esteem issues for most of my life, and it's only been within the last couple of years that I've developed enough confidence to approach women. Hell, I'm still shy a lot of the time.
  Max, I've always respected your opinions and your intellect but I simply don't buy this whole height discrimination thing. I have a hard time believing that there's actually been men who have gone into job interviews and done well but, afterwards, some evil corporate types have gotten together and said, "Well, this guy seems qualified enough for the position, but dammit, he's too short." I'm just not buying it.
    About a year ago, I got into this same discussion with a (since banned) member named Harmonica, whom some of you may remember. He too was short in stature and was making similar complaints to me and I repeated to him a quote (the source of which I can't remember) which summed up my feelings on this whole issue: "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." Believe me, I've met plenty of guys who are much shorter than me who I would not f*ck with.
    Honestly, I think you all need to quit your whining. Your height has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with how much respect people give you. And before you all start flaming me I'll leave you with three words:

JOE. FREAKIN'. PESCI.

http://www.djfl.de/entertainment/stars/j/joe_pesci_01.jpg




I agree with Al.

I'm 6'1 240. I'd call myself a big guy, but ya know.. my buddy Pete is about 5'9 200.. and I would NOT fu.ck with him.
Being a short guy really dosen't have much difference on how people view you (Unless you're a total midget).. I'm guessing ya'll have got some sort of Napolean complex going on.

Well I was going to add the same kind of comments as the above two and Red Ant beat me to the police officer height thing. Height has really, REALLY got nothing to do with how good a cop is in a restraint situation, it is how they are trained! I have seen many shorter policemen and police women for that matter able to restrain if they need to.Also club bouncers and carers/nurses.If you are properly trained as a professional, size has nothing to do with it.
A good friend of mine is an osteopath, she is tiny, in height and build.It didn't stop her becoming the best in her graduating year.She just learned different ways of manouvering large people to crack their bones back in place!   

I agree with Al.

I'm 6'1 240. I'd call myself a big guy, but ya know.. my buddy Pete is about 5'9 200.. and I would NOT fu.ck with him.
Being a short guy really dosen't have much difference on how people view you (Unless you're a total midget).. I'm guessing ya'll have got some sort of Napolean complex going on.


Do not accuse short men of having a Napoleon complex. Napoleon was 5'6", which at 1800 was slightly above average for a Frenchman (he would be like, 5'10" today, probably.) However, we do have some of the most important people of the 20th century as short men...Lenin, Stalin, etc. And, for one reason or another, lots of gangster actors have been short, as have philosophers, singers, writers, artists, etc.

I personally don't consider 5'7" short. It's like, "low average", especially if you live in the Northeast, where we have a high percentage of Jewish, Italian, Portuguese, and Asian guys. But this is all semantics...it's based on the perception of others, shortness.

No, I didn't think you were being insensitive, honestly.  I know what you're saying.

Even if you were, I brought up the topic, so I'd have nothng to gripe about!
;)


Cool beans!!

Nah, I'm way more man-pretty than hot.

;D


Ooh, I love man-pretty men!

Now for the other side of the coin. I happen to be 6'3", and I can tell you from personal experience that my height doesn't automatically give me "alpha male" status, as some of you may believe, nor do I feel that it gives me a significant advantage when it comes to dating. I've had self-esteem issues for most of my life, and it's only been within the last couple of years that I've developed enough confidence to approach women. Hell, I'm still shy a lot of the time.
   Max, I've always respected your opinions and your intellect but I simply don't buy this whole height discrimination thing. I have a hard time believing that there's actually been men who have gone into job interviews and done well but, afterwards, some evil corporate types have gotten together and said, "Well, this guy seems qualified enough for the position, but dammit, he's too short." I'm just not buying it.
    About a year ago, I got into this same discussion with a (since banned) member named Harmonica, whom some of you may remember. He too was short in stature and was making similar complaints to me and I repeated to him a quote (the source of which I can't remember) which summed up my feelings on this whole issue: "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." Believe me, I've met plenty of guys who are much shorter than me who I would not f*ck with.
     Honestly, I think you all need to quit your whining. Your height has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with how much respect people give you. And before you all start flaming me I'll leave you with three words:




I hain't whinin' there, boy!  I'm just pointing out a few things.  The discrimination is not as deliberate as "we're not hiring this guy because he's short," it's more subtle than that.  The employer may not even analyze why they like favor the taller candidate, they may not even realize height had anything to do with it.  It's the same reason why a pretty blonde with big boobs gets the job over a more qualified lady who happens to be plain and overweight.  That's the way it goes.

This thread is not about me, per se.  Hafta say it again.  I notice these things more because I am short. (5' 9" is not short, it's average).  But for chrissakes, the last thing I wanted was a pity party for Maxwell.  I could be 6' 6" and it wouldn't alter the reality of what I'm saying.

As for Harmonica, he could have been as tall as Shaquille O'Neill, and he woulda still been an obnoxious twerp!
::)

I have missed most of this discussion, and just don't feel like going back and reading all that is there, I will just put in my observations.  Women do like tall men, to look at, the way men look at blonds and/or boobs.  That is just the way it is.  Height or the appearance of it is considered a plus, which is why you usually see actors pared with shorter actresses, the manly man is expected to taller than the woman.  The gossip go round had it that one of the reasons(probably among many) that Pacino and Streep split up was her height.  In the movies Audie Murphy was always put on platforms when next to co-stars, and John Wayne and Clint Eastwood are the manly men of movies.  All this is in direct relation to height, it is disingenuous to say it isn't. 

I have missed most of this discussion, and just don't feel like going back and reading all that is there, I will just put in my observations.  Women do like tall men, to look at, the way men look at blonds and/or boobs.  That is just the way it is.  Height or the appearance of it is considered a plus, which is why you usually see actors pared with shorter actresses, the manly man is expected to taller than the woman.  The gossip go round had it that one of the reasons(probably among many) that Pacino and Streep split up was her height.  In the movies Audie Murphy was always put on platforms when next to co-stars, and John Wayne and Clint Eastwood are the manly men of movies.  All this is in direct relation to height, it is disingenuous to say it isn't. 



Even Cagney was on stilts, and he was 5' 8" or thereabouts.  People point out the short "tough guys," Joe Pesce, Al Pacino, and (hesitate to mention) Robert Blake, but there are no short romantic leads.  Even if there were, mind you, it wouldn't make Tinseltown any less the trash-heap than it is now.

The point I made--vigorously denied--is that the height prejudice is another holdover from outdated "natural selection" practices of our primitive ancersters, and is one of the key attributes sought via in vitro eugenics. 

My point is, after the age of 18, or 20 at the latest, height is a characteristic as immutable as skin color.

I agree with Al.

I'm 6'1 240. I'd call myself a big guy, but ya know.. my buddy Pete is about 5'9 200.. and I would NOT fu.ck with him.
Being a short guy really dosen't have much difference on how people view you (Unless you're a total midget).. I'm guessing ya'll have got some sort of Napolean complex going on.
Heck, my oldest brother is only 5'6" (on a good day ;)) and he's taken out guys your size.  He also garners respect from everyone who "meets" him because he just emits "Don't f**k with me."  When he was a senior in high school (I was a freshman the following year), he announced to the football & wrestling teams "If you mess with my little sister, you'll have to deal with ME".  Needless to say, I didn't have many dates in high school :-\\

Heck, my oldest brother is only 5'6" (on a good day ;)) and he's taken out guys your size.  He also garners respect from everyone who "meets" him because he just emits "Don't f**k with me."  When he was a senior in high school (I was a freshman the following year), he announced to the football & wrestling teams "If you mess with my little sister, you'll have to deal with ME".  Needless to say, I didn't have many dates in high school :-\\
My brother was always doing things like that too! Grrr.

As for Harmonica, he could have been as tall as Shaquille O'Neill, and he woulda still been an obnoxious twerp!
::)
O0 O0

I'm fat, and my husband's short!! Guess if we walk into a place, we're doubly ridiculed :P

.

I personally don't consider 5'7" short. It's like, "low average", especially if you live in the Northeast, where we have a high percentage of Jewish, Italian, Portuguese, and Asian guys. But this is all semantics...it's based on the perception of others, shortness.



I certainly feel short. Ethnicity does play into things though. If I'm over in the barrio, I don't feel as short! I feel like a normal guy.

I certainly feel short. Ethnicity does play into things though. If I'm over in the barrio, I don't feel as short! I feel like a normal guy.


Also, to add to this, I think part of why I identify with Latinos and like their culture so much is a subconcious thing, because I am short and I see that a typical Latino dude is around my height so I guess I end up identifying.

I certainly feel short. Ethnicity does play into things though. If I'm over in the barrio, I don't feel as short! I feel like a normal guy.
You're all a bunch of midgets to me.  ;D ;D ;D

I certainly feel short. Ethnicity does play into things though. If I'm over in the barrio, I don't feel as short! I feel like a normal guy.


However, to be a qualifier of things...if you went up here, you wouldn't be short. You aren't all that short...I'm fairly universally short.

I certainly feel short. Ethnicity does play into things though. If I'm over in the barrio, I don't feel as short! I feel like a normal guy.
Well, if you hang around tall people, you're going to feel short....if you hang around short people, you'll feel tall.  What IS your ethnicity?

Also, to add to this, I think part of why I identify with Latinos and like their culture so much is a subconcious thing, because I am short and I see that a typical Latino dude is around my height so I guess I end up identifying.
Well, get yourself a nice Latina girl then!  ;)

You're all a bunch of midgets to me.  ;D ;D ;D

Ahem, we prefer "little people," ya big galoot!
;)

Ahem, we prefer "little people," ya big galoot!
;)
;D

Is there such a thing as a "little galoot?"

Girl, you have no experience to speak from. As a fellow short man(5'7 and a half) I can say Maxwell is dead on.  Time and time again I haven't been taken seriously because of my height. And on a regular basis people make cracks about short guys, and yet its all supposed to be okay. WE CAN'T HELP OUR HEIGHT. Making fun of someone for that is EVERY BIT AS WRONG as making fun of someone because of their race or ethnicity.

And I won't be bothered to post any statistics, because this isn't my baby. This is Maxwell's thread, and I'm sure if he wants to continue this line of discussion he'll be more than happy to do so.

But anyway, I have heard/read on many occasions that statistics show that taller men marry earlier and make more in the workplace. They are also more likely to be the CEO of a company or hold important public office. Look at how many of our Presidents have been over 6 foot, and how few have been short.


5'7 may be short but I think what she is saying is that it is not that short, even for a man.  You're acting like you are 5'2.   Considering most men on the planet are around 5'8 or 5'9, then 1 or 2 inches off of that is not too short.  You're still around eye level of most people and certainly taller then most women. 

A short man, and I mean short guy really stands out only when he is 5'4 and under, or perhaps 5'5 and under.  Not 5'7.  Bruce Lee was 5'6.  Tom Cruise is 5'7.  Tobey Maguire is 5'7.  Vice-President Dick Cheney is 5'8.  A man still looks proportional and well in the 5'6-5'9 height range.  Small, but still looks good.  If you were to stand next to Dick Cheney or George W. Bush (who isn't that big at  5'10), you by no means would look dwarfed by these men.  A 5'7 man likely has to be around the 5'11 and over crowd for his lack of height to really be noticeable.  

Michael J. Fox is 5'4, and he clearly stands out more as a short short man.  You can't use camera angles or anything to hide Michael J. Fox's shortness.  It's obvious how short he is.  Be grateful you at least made it to 5'7, it could have been worse.  You could have wound up a dwarf.     

5'7 may be short but I think what she is saying is that it is not that short, even for a man.  You're acting like you are 5'2.   Considering most men on the planet are around 5'8 or 5'9, then 1 or 2 inches off of that is not too short.  You're still around eye level of most people and certainly taller then most women. 

A short man, and I mean short guy really stands out only when he is 5'4 and under, or perhaps 5'5 and under.  Not 5'7.  Bruce Lee was 5'6.  Tom Cruise is 5'7.  Tobey Maguire is 5'7.  Vice-President Dick Cheney is 5'8.  A man still looks proportional and well in the 5'6-5'9 height range.  Small, but still looks good.  If you were to stand next to Dick Cheney or George W. Bush (who isn't that big at  5'10), you by no means would look dwarfed by these men.  A 5'7 man likely has to be around the 5'11 and over crowd for his lack of height to really be noticeable.  

Michael J. Fox is 5'4, and he clearly stands out more as a short short man.  You can't use camera angles or anything to hide Michael J. Fox's shortness.  It's obvious how short he is.  Be grateful you at least made it to 5'7, it could have been worse.  You could have wound up a dwarf.     


I happen to look good and well-proportioned...and I'm 5'2! Please don't act like it's having a harelip or a giant alligator sticking out of your forehead to be a short person (i.e. "It could have been worse.") I'm proud to be short, it's the social attitudes that upset me.

Yes in the very same way that taller women have a harder time in life than short women and yes at 5ft 11' I speak from bitter experience..............



It's true.  My best friend in high school was 6'0 and she had a helluva time. 

The bottom line, is that society isn't going to fully accept anyone that they deem "too" something.  Too short, too tall, too fat, too thin, we're all screwed.

It's true.  My best friend in high school was 6'0 and she had a helluva time. 

The bottom line, is that society isn't going to fully accept anyone that they deem "too" something.  Too short, too tall, too fat, too thin, we're all screwed.




Bang on, so roll one, shoot up or pop another can.  ;D

I happen to look good and well-proportioned...and I'm 5'2! Please don't act like it's having a harelip or a giant alligator sticking out of your forehead to be a short person (i.e. "It could have been worse.") I'm proud to be short, it's the social attitudes that upset me.


I was talking about dwarfisim, not you.  He was upset that he is 5'7, when in fact he is not as small as he thinks.  There is nothing "wrong" with your height, but it is a height that is something that can not be obscured if you were a TV or movie personality.  i.e., Tom Cruise

5'7 may be short but I think what she is saying is that it is not that short, even for a man.  You're acting like you are 5'2. 


Yeah but most of the men in my family are over 6 foot and the doctor always told me growing up I was going to be at least 6 foot. :(

And I don't know if theres something in the water here, but it doesn't FEEL like the average dude is 5'8"/5'9" around here. I went to the fair last night and over half of the younger guys there were obviously taller than me(like 5'11" and up as you said). I think kids are getting taller these days or something. You wouldn't believe how many chicks I run into obviously taller as well. :o

But thats not such a bad thing. Sometimes this does have an advantage. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

;D

But thats not such a bad thing. Sometimes this does have an advantage. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

;D
If you ever get into a fight you have an easier shot at peoples' balls.  ;D

If you ever get into a fight you have an easier shot at peoples' balls.  ;D


::) ;D

Nah, I meant that I like tall women...

Sometimes this does have an advantage. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

;D




I agree with this statement 100%.

it is true that MOST short men have what i like to call shortman's syndrome. ofcourse this is not true with all short men.

Yeah but most of the men in my family are over 6 foot and the doctor always told me growing up I was going to be at least 6 foot. :(

And I don't know if theres something in the water here, but it doesn't FEEL like the average dude is 5'8"/5'9" around here. I went to the fair last night and over half of the younger guys there were obviously taller than me(like 5'11" and up as you said). I think kids are getting taller these days or something. You wouldn't believe how many chicks I run into obviously taller as well. :o

But thats not such a bad thing. Sometimes this does have an advantage. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

;D

I know what you mean, my dad is six feet, so my family assumed I would be too.  Nobody banked on atavistic genes coming into play and a whol raft of health problems starting in infancy and never letting up.  I was never hale individual, always sickly.  I didn't have an discrete syndrome, though I believe the stressors from childhood depression/anxiety and some environmental malefactors did a job on my hormones.  Nobody can prove it, but it's plausible.

I know what you mean, my dad is six feet, so my family assumed I would be too.  Nobody banked on atavistic genes coming into play and a whol raft of health problems starting in infancy and never letting up.  I was never hale individual, always sickly.  I didn't have an discrete syndrome, though I believe the stressors from childhood depression/anxiety and some environmental malefactors did a job on my hormones.  Nobody can prove it, but it's plausible.


I went through a lot of personal/family-related turmoil and depression during the onset of puberty, 11-14, and I think that may have stunted my growth in some way. I also started smoking at 13 and did so until 16. I have my suspicions there too.

I went through a lot of personal/family-related turmoil and depression during the onset of puberty, 11-14, and I think that may have stunted my growth in some way. I also started smoking at 13 and did so until 16. I have my suspicions there too.
Nah, the smoking thing is an urban myth.For example I smoked from 14 - 20 and it had no effect on my height at all.
How tall are the men in your Mum's family? You don't just get genes from one side you know,maybe your mum's family's height genes are dominant in you.

It's true.  My best friend in high school was 6'0 and she had a helluva time. 

The bottom line, is that society isn't going to fully accept anyone that they deem "too" something.  Too short, too tall, too fat, too thin, we're all screwed.


Well said! Karma to you.

I know what you mean, my dad is six feet, so my family assumed I would be too.  Nobody banked on atavistic genes coming into play and a whol raft of health problems starting in infancy and never letting up.  I was never hale individual, always sickly.  I didn't have an discrete syndrome, though I believe the stressors from childhood depression/anxiety and some environmental malefactors did a job on my hormones.  Nobody can prove it, but it's plausible.


My grandfathers are 5'6 and 5'7, and my parents are 4'9 (mother) and 5'3 (father.) My mother is so short because she was severely anorexic during the period when she should have been growing the most and also was struggling with clinical depression/anxiety at the onset of puberty. My father was supposed to be about 5'6, but the taking of testosterone to "remedy shortness" just made puberty start earlier for him and his bones close earlier. I'm not sure why I'm so short...I might still grow a couple of inches, but it might have to do with childhood depression/anxiety, poor sleep habits and stress around the time I was 13/14, etc. Personally, part of the reason I idolize Prince is that he's a very short guy for whom his height doesn't and didn't affect him. I don't care all THAT much, actually...acting like it's something wrong with me reinforces that eugenic perception of being short.

But, yeah...it's just that you live in Texas. You're not anywhere near as short as you think you are.

Yeah but most of the men in my family are over 6 foot and the doctor always told me growing up I was going to be at least 6 foot. :(

And I don't know if theres something in the water here, but it doesn't FEEL like the average dude is 5'8"/5'9" around here. I went to the fair last night and over half of the younger guys there were obviously taller than me(like 5'11" and up as you said). I think kids are getting taller these days or something. You wouldn't believe how many chicks I run into obviously taller as well. :o



;D
That's because you're self-conscious about it.  The more you dwell on it, the more noticeable it becomes.

Also, like Gis said, you get your genes from 2 parents, not just 1.  Hubby's real dad is over 6', as are his 2 paternal uncles and 1 male cousin.  He's 5'8ish (he'll say 5'9", but he's not ;)) and his other male cousin is about his height.  Now, if BOTH of your parents are tall, then I guess you just got the short end of the stick

Hey Herman I hope I am not coming across as too callous and unfeeling regarding your 5'2 height. 

I told Dude that 5'7 isn't bad and he's "acting like he was 5'2", when you yourself are 5'2 and I realize that was unfeeling.  Sorry about that.

I realize people probably always endlessly tell you to just "get over it" or give you some AA platitude on life, and/or preach "all you need is confidence", when they themselves aren't dealing with the same problem you are and don't know the scope of difficulty you are dealing with.

   

My grandfathers are 5'6 and 5'7, and my parents are 4'9 (mother) and 5'3 (father.) My mother is so short because she was severely anorexic during the period when she should have been growing the most and also was struggling with clinical depression/anxiety at the onset of puberty. My father was supposed to be about 5'6, but the taking of testosterone to "remedy shortness" just made puberty start earlier for him and his bones close earlier. I'm not sure why I'm so short...I might still grow a couple of inches, but it might have to do with childhood depression/anxiety, poor sleep habits and stress around the time I was 13/14, etc. Personally, part of the reason I idolize Prince is that he's a very short guy for whom his height doesn't and didn't affect him. I don't care all THAT much, actually...acting like it's something wrong with me reinforces that eugenic perception of being short.

But, yeah...it's just that you live in Texas. You're not anywhere near as short as you think you are.
Actually, you're about right for parents that size.....my oldest learned in one of his classes last year that you take your mother's height (in inches), add that to your father's height, divide by 2 and add 2".  If that's correct, you should be 62", which you are ;)

Also, like Gis said, you get your genes from 2 parents, not just 1.  Hubby's real dad is over 6', as are his 2 paternal uncles and 1 male cousin.  He's 5'8ish (he'll say 5'9", but he's not ;)) and his other male cousin is about his height.  Now, if BOTH of your parents are tall, then I guess you just got the short end of the stick


My paternal grandmother is 5'8" and my grandfather was 6'0", and my dad is 6'0". My mom isn't tall, she is only 5'4", but all of the men in her family are tall.

Hey Herman I hope I am not coming across as too callous and unfeeling regarding your 5'2 height. 

I told Dude that 5'7 isn't bad and he's "acting like he was 5'2", when you yourself are 5'2 and I realize that was unfeeling.  Sorry about that.

I realize people probably always endlessly tell you to just "get over it" or give you some AA platitude on life, and/or preach "all you need is confidence", when they themselves aren't dealing with the same problem you are and don't know the scope of difficulty you are dealing with.

   


It's okay, you didn't come off that way. Thanks anyway!

The thing is...it wasn't my parents' genetic height, it was due to outside conditions like hormonal injections and malnutrition that they're short.

My paternal grandmother is 5'8" and my grandfather was 6'0", and my dad is 6'0". My mom isn't tall, she is only 5'4", but all of the men in her family are tall.
But as I said , maybe you have her height genes...........

My grandfathers are 5'6 and 5'7, and my parents are 4'9 (mother) and 5'3 (father.) My mother is so short because she was severely anorexic during the period when she should have been growing the most and also was struggling with clinical depression/anxiety at the onset of puberty.
Same here.  I wasn't anorexic, but the anxiety killed my appetite and had an adverse effect on crucial growth hormones.  My nutrition also suffered from general neglect after my parents' divorce.  Another thing is I had scoliosis pretty bad.  I ended up in a back brace of nine months when I was fourteen.  The brace was one of the more beneficial things.  It did cure the curvature and was great for posture. 

I never smoked.  I don't know if the smoking thing is a myth or not.  Each individual is different.  I knew two brothers from a, erm, "white trash" family who were brought up on Twinkies and potato chips and started smoking at the age of ten, about the same age they started drinking liquor and smoking weed!  Both of them were well over six feet tall by the age of 16.   

One of my aunts, who is about 5' 9," claims her growth ceased at the age of 12 because she started smoking like a fiend, but when she went away to boarding school she was forced to quit, and started growing rapidly.  She's on my dad's side of the family, and she's only his half-sister. 

There's a mix of tall and short men on both sides of my family. 

The thing is, I don't look anything like my father.  I can't stand the SOB either!  Haven't spoken to him in four years and have no intention to start.  I had a fantasy he was not my real father.  I asked my mother, "Is there any chance he might not be...I mean, you could have, uhhh....you know what I'm saying?"
"No chance," she replied, "He's your father alright.  No doubt about that!"
"Dayum!"
;D

Same here.  I wasn't anorexic, but the anxiety killed my appetite and had an adverse effect on crucial growth hormones.  My nutrition also suffered from general neglect after my parents' divorce.  Another thing is I had scoliosis pretty bad.  I ended up in a back brace of nine months when I was fourteen.  The brace was one of the more beneficial things.  It did cure the curvature and was great for posture. 

I never smoked.  I don't know if the smoking thing is a myth or not.  Each individual is different.  I knew two brothers from a, erm, "white trash" family who were brought up on Twinkies and potato chips and started smoking at the age of ten, about the same age they started drinking liquor and smoking weed!  Both of them were well over six feet tall by the age of 16.   

One of my aunts, who is about 5' 9," claims her growth ceased at the age of 12 because she started smoking like a fiend, but when she went away to boarding school she was forced to quit, and started growing rapidly.  She's on my dad's side of the family, and she's only his half-sister. 

There's a mix of tall and short men on both sides of my family. 

The thing is, I don't look anything like my father.  I can't stand the SOB either!  Haven't spoken to him in four years and have no intention to start.  I had a fantasy he was not my real father.  I asked my mother, "Is there any chance he might not be...I mean, you could have, uhhh....you know what I'm saying?"
"No chance," she replied, "He's your father alright.  No doubt about that!"
"Dayum!"
;D


I suppose my anxiety/clinical depression might have had an adverse effect on my growth. I've always been well-nourished or overweight except for a brief period in 7th and 8th grade when I had a massive growth spurt...though I think, since I became a vegetarian at 8 and had a very resulting unbalanced diet due to some sort of allergenic reaction to meat proteins I developed around that age. The tallest guy in my immediate family is 5'10, maybe (my uncle is), and I had a great-grandfather and have a great-uncle around that height in the Levinsohn line, my father's side. Though there is a history of very short women in my family...by that, I mean like shorter than my mom is now. I do know my mom could have been like 5 inches taller had she not been an anorexic. Also, she had to get breast reduction since her bust came in late when she was in her twenties...they were like a large C on a woman of 5'4 or so, and she was 4'9!

I personally don't look anything like my father either. Not that I dislike my father, I just look nothing like my paternal line, except for my more blonde coloring, maybe.

BTW, don't aks me how I know but I know---
The ones called "Gentleman's Clubs" are overpriced, lame, and boring!
:-\\


Apparently you have never been to Windsor Ontario to see the "Windsor Ballet". 

On the other end of the spectrum is a place called the Dizzy Duck in downtown Detroit.  Bring disinfectant.  ;D

Apparently you have never been to Windsor Ontario to see the "Windsor Ballet". 

On the other end of the spectrum is a place called the Dizzy Duck in downtown Detroit.  Bring disinfectant.  ;D

When my college buds and I used to go, talk about bring disinfectant...and a sidearm!  There was this place outside of Worcester, I think it was called "Manhattans," (it's not there anymore), and we walked in and it was like "Holy sh*t, we are going to die!"  Them dudes was all reeeeal ornery lookin,' and they didn't seem to think we belonged there.  Plus the place was had the same cleanliness as your averange NJ turnpike men's room.  We were there on "Amateur Night," and the girls looked like they'd been nine rounds with Mike Tyson as recently as that afternoon!
:o


Apparently you have never been to Windsor Ontario to see the "Windsor Ballet". 

On the other end of the spectrum is a place called the Dizzy Duck in downtown Detroit.  Bring disinfectant.  ;D

I wasn't along for the Montreal trip on which my friends blew their wads (as in money, well...not just money) on the sin strip at St. Catherine's.  It sounded like a heluva romp, but I was probably better off missing the whole thing!
::)

But as I said , maybe you have her height genes...........


Um, 5'4"is average height for a woman.. :D

When my college buds and I used to go, talk about bring disinfectant...and a sidearm!  There was this place outside of Worcester, I think it was called "Manhattans," (it's not there anymore), and we walked in and it was like "Holy sh*t, we are going to die!"  Them dudes was all reeeeal ornery lookin,' and they didn't seem to think we belonged there.


There was all kinds of mean, nasty and ugly-lookin' people on the bench - there was mother rapers, father-stabbers, father-rapers... yep, FATHER-RAPERS sittin' right there on the bench next to me, just sittin' there starin' up at the peelers!  And they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible and crime fightin' guys were sittin' there on the bench, and the meaniest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest father-raper of them all, was comin' over to me.

And he was mean and nasty and horrible and all kinds of things, and he sat down next to me. He said, "Kid, what'd you get?"

I said, "I didn't get nothin'. I had to pay twenty dollars and didn't even get a lap dance." He said, "What were you arrested FOR, kid?" and I said, "Loiterin'."

And they all moved away from me on the bench there, with the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean, nasty things, till I said, "And public intox."

And they all came back, shook my hand and we had a great time on the bench talkin' about crime, mother-stabbin', father-rapin', - all kinds of groovy things that we was talkin' about on the bench, and everything was fine... 

And we'll sing it again when it comes 'round on the guitar.
You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant... including Alice...

Um, 5'4"is average height for a woman.. :D



So?  Her genes could have had her taller than that, it could have had her shorter than that.  Just because it's the average height doesn't mean her genes couldn't have affected how tall you turned out.  My mom is 5'5, my dad is 5'9.  My sister is 5'6, I'm 5'2-5'3.  I got some of my mom's "shorty" genes, since HER mom was rather short.  My sister got the tall genes.

[quote author=

When my college buds and I used to go, talk about bring disinfectant...and a sidearm!  There was this place outside of Worcester, I think it was called "Manhattans," (it's not there anymore), and we walked in and it was like "Holy sh*t, we are going to die!"  Them dudes was all reeeeal ornery lookin,' and they didn't seem to think we belonged there.  Plus the place was had the same cleanliness as your averange NJ turnpike men's room.  We were there on "Amateur Night," and the girls looked like they'd been nine rounds with Mike Tyson as recently as that afternoon!
:o
I wasn't along for the Montreal trip on which my friends blew their wads (as in money, well...not just money) on the sin strip at St. Catherine's.  It sounded like a heluva romp, but I was probably better off missing the whole thing!
::)


If you want to look for creepy bargain-basement strip clubs, try Jersey. There are two right down the street from my high school towards Newark, one of them being "Heartbreakers Go-Go Club", and there are like 10 in Paterson. The only male one I know of is "Connections", out on the highway west of me, which I plan to go to on my 18th birthday with a few female friends of mine, to see tatooed swarthy Italian-American guys get nude.

There was all kinds of mean, nasty and ugly-lookin' people on the bench - there was mother rapers, father-stabbers, father-rapers... yep, FATHER-RAPERS sittin' right there on the bench next to me, just sittin' there starin' up at the peelers!  And they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible and crime fightin' guys were sittin' there on the bench, and the meaniest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest father-raper of them all, was comin' over to me.

And he was mean and nasty and horrible and all kinds of things, and he sat down next to me. He said, "Kid, what'd you get?"

I said, "I didn't get nothin'. I had to pay twenty dollars and didn't even get a lap dance." He said, "What were you arrested FOR, kid?" and I said, "Loiterin'."

And they all moved away from me on the bench there, with the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean, nasty things, till I said, "And public intox."

And they all came back, shook my hand and we had a great time on the bench talkin' about crime, mother-stabbin', father-rapin', - all kinds of groovy things that we was talkin' about on the bench, and everything was fine... 

And we'll sing it again when it comes 'round on the guitar.
You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant... including Alice...


;D ;D ;D
Now don't get me started on Alice's Restaurant... If I start, I can't stop!  I ain't gonna venture quote one!
:-X

If you want to look for creepy bargain-basement strip clubs, try Jersey. There are two right down the street from my high school towards Newark, one of them being "Heartbreakers Go-Go Club", and there are like 10 in Paterson. The only male one I know of is "Connections", out on the highway west of me, which I plan to go to on my 18th birthday with a few female friends of mine, to see tatooed swarthy Italian-American guys get nude.
Or, come to Illinois and drive along I-80.  There's quite a few "questionable" ones.  They're even BYOB because they can't get a liquor license ;D

[quote author=

Or, come to Illinois and drive along I-80.  There's quite a few "questionable" ones.  They're even BYOB because they can't get a liquor license ;D


Actually, theres a reason for doing that. The strip club here in town is BYOB and its so that they can draw more people in. If they had a liqour license, they wouldn't be able to allow 18-20 year olds in.


EXACTLY.  Try this one on for size:  my mil is about 5', my FIL probably about 5'4-5.  My SIL's (twins) are taller than BOTH of them ???  And, I'm 5'6, hubby's about 5'8"....our oldest is already 5'3" at 11 :o  My 8 year old is already 4'7.  I plugged their info into a couple of charts and the oldest's "estimated" height is 5'10" and my youngest is 6'1". :o


Yeah but see I always grew at a fast rate as a child. My doctor told me I was going to be 6 foot to 6 foot 2. Its like when I got to adolescence, I just didn't grow like I was supposed to. I'm nearly 19 years old and I haven't grown a bit since right after I turned 14(when I grew a half an inch- from 5'7" to 5'7" and a half).

Yeah but see I always grew at a fast rate as a child. My doctor told me I was going to be 6 foot to 6 foot 2. Its like when I got to adolescence, I just didn't grow like I was supposed to. I'm nearly 19 years old and I haven't grown a bit since right after I turned 14(when I grew a half an inch- from 5'7" to 5'7" and a half).



I was taller than some of the other kids my age when I was younger and I thought I'd end up tall like my dad, but I got to about 5'3 and just stopped growing.  My sister was shorter than most of the kids her age when she was younger and she's about 5'6 now.  It's all genetics.  I believe there are other factors that do stunt your growth, like malnutrition but genetics also play a huge role in that.  You might have just stopped growing.  It happens sometimes.

[quote author=

Its extremely unusual for a male to stop growing at that eary of an age. Most men are at least 16 before they get to their full height.



Did you ever think about talking to your doctor about why that is?

[quote author=

Can't find anything out right now though. No medical insurance.

Can't find anything out right now though. No medical insurance.
Not trying to give you any kind of false hope or anything, but sometimes people go through additional growth spurts in their early 20's. But really, it doesn't matter as much as you may think, if you learn to be comfortable in your own skin and carry yourself in a confident manner and you demand respect from people, most of the time they'll give it to you.   
  Hell, I'm 6'3", and sometimes people mess with me just because they think it's cool to try and f*ck with someone who's taller than they are.

Not trying to give you any kind of false hope or anything, but sometimes people go through additional growth spurts in their early 20's. But really, it doesn't matter as much as you may think, if you learn to be comfortable in your own skin and carry yourself in a confident manner and you demand respect from people, most of the time they'll give it to you.   
  Hell, I'm 6'3", and sometimes people mess with me just because they think it's cool to try and f*ck with someone who's taller than they are.


Its a hard thing for me to overcome. I'm not tough anyway. I don't really feel like I can stand up for or protect myself when put against someone who is 5'11" or taller.. definitely someone over 6 foot.

Its a hard thing for me to overcome. I'm not tough anyway. I don't really feel like I can stand up for or protect myself when put against someone who is 5'11" or taller.. definitely someone over 6 foot.



TBH, that might have less to do with the height of the person, and more to do with your own self-confidence.  I'm 5'3, but I'd take you on.  ;)

[quote author=

Thanks for the offer though. ;);D



Just what did you think I was offering, hmm?  ;)

[quote author=

Slap me around and call me Susan. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/naughty.gif

:D



ROFL. 


Well, my mom's name is Susan so that would be weird.  How about we change that to Sally? 

[quote author=

How about if you spank his ass and call him Richard?  ;D



You know, I think I have a whip in my garage...lemme check.

I told Dude that 5'7 isn't bad and he's "acting like he was 5'2", when you yourself are 5'2 and I realize that was unfeeling.  Sorry about that.



Average height for women is 162 cm (5ft 3in). Average height for men is 175 cm (5ft 8in)

5ft 7 isn't short.


Edit: Forgot to quote

Not trying to give you any kind of false hope or anything, but sometimes people go through additional growth spurts in their early 20's. But really, it doesn't matter as much as you may think, if you learn to be comfortable in your own skin and carry yourself in a confident manner and you demand respect from people, most of the time they'll give it to you.   
  Hell, I'm 6'3", and sometimes people mess with me just because they think it's cool to try and f*ck with someone who's taller than they are.
That's true.  My older brother was only 5'3-4 until he turned about 21, then he shot up to about 5'8-9.  [quote author=

Conversely I was 5ft tall until I was in the fourth year at secondary school (Age 14/15) then all of a sudden I just grew,and grew and grew! 

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650197543,00.html

Interesting article...

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650197543,00.html

Interesting article...

Yeah, that article pretty much sums up what I have been saying.  The article does not emphasize how much greater the prejudice against short men is. 

How to end height prejudice, rather than pumping your kid full of hormones like a Perdue chicken, is a question we must address as a society. 

Yeah, that article pretty much sums up what I have been saying.  The article does not emphasize how much greater the prejudice against short men is. 

How to end height prejudice, rather than pumping your kid full of hormones like a Perdue chicken, is a question we must address as a society. 


As long as there are human beings on this earth, there will be jerks, and there will be prejudice.  I wish it wasn't so.  I wish that people would pull their heads out and realize that we're all just people.  But there will always be those individuals who need to feel superior to someone.  And I don't think it matters if that someone is short, tall, gay, straight, black, white, fat or thin. 

Small as a peanut,
Big as a giant,
We're all the same size
When we turn off the light.

Rich as a sultan,
Poor as a mite,
We're all worth the same
When we turn off the light.

Red, black or orange,
Yellow or white,
We all look the same
When we turn off the light.

So maybe the way
To make everything right
Is for God to just reach out
And turn off the light!


I love Shel Silverstein.

As long as there are human beings on this earth, there will be jerks, and there will be prejudice.  I wish it wasn't so.  I wish that people would pull their heads out and realize that we're all just people.  But there will always be those individuals who need to feel superior to someone.  And I don't think it matters if that someone is short, tall, gay, straight, black, white, fat or thin. 


Yes there will always be jerks.  It's not just that I, as a short man, am touchy about the subject of height.   When I hear of parents giving their kids hormones to increase their statures, when I hear of parents buying boob jobs for their teenage daughters, when I hear of the rank prejudice against overweight people, it suggests to be our society is devolving back to eugenics.  More likely, the eugenics movement never left us.  Whenever a couple seeks to buy an egg to implant, the donor always has the same profile: white, blonde, tall, Ivy League college student.

What is the message drilled into our heads: compete, compete, compete!  You must fight tooth and nail to win, win, win, in our competitive, indivdualistic, free enterprise society!  "You never get a second change to make a first impression."  That's right.  To get the edge on your competition in the business world, you must be tall, beautiful, and physically fit. 

The fascist mentality never really went away, it just hibernated after WWII. In the interim we got the Civil Rights legislation.  It is now illegal to discriminate based on race (though the powers that be do so as much as they can get away with), and to a lesser degree it is illegal to discriminate based on sex.  Everything else is fair game. 

When FOX News hired Greta Van Susteren they not only glamorized her hair and her make up, they also changed the physical structure of her face.

Pretty much the only time you see people on TV who aren't rich and good-looking is when they are being arrested or humiliated!

That's what corporate America wants you to see.  It is deliberate.  There is too much money involved for anything TV broadcasts to be unintended.  The giant corporations own all popular media.  FOX News is a billion dollar corporation.  Disney is a billion dollar corporation.   MTV is a billion dollar corporation.  Vivid Video is billion dollar corporation.  I don't think Cosmopolitan or Maxim magazine is, but all popular periodicals exist because billion dollar corporations own them via advertising, so they say what the corporations want said...or else!

I have never seen the corporate media run stories on how it is wrong to discriminate against short men or "ugly" women.  I did see John Stossell present staged demonstrations affirming that women don't like short men, and even little children are magnetically attracted to "beautiful" women.  Therefore, it is an immutable human charactaristic.  Stossell packaged his corporate editorial as "Hey, I'm presenting the hard truth, deal with it!"  There is no hard truth on television.  The corporations will not spend valuable airtime on subjects without first making sure it will benefit their bottom line.

When John Stossel presents a five-foot tall man and says to a beautiful blonde, would you go out with HIM?  What do you think the message is?  When Stossel--as he did--takes the same man, has him dressed in $5000 silk suit standing next to a stretch Mercedes, and the beautiful woman still turns up her nose and says "No way!"  What do you think the message is?  Stossel also pulled a similar stunt with five-year-olds favoring the beautiful woman over the plain one every time.  Insecurity is the message.  Insecurity gets you to buy things.

"What we take into our hands, we take into our hearts."
--Eli Lapp, Witness

The corporate media does not simply sell goods and services.  As you consume it, it sells you values, ideals, and prejudices.  The corporate executives have been studying the effects of mass media for nearly 100 years.  They know this.  They make sure the values, ideals, and prejudices are the ones that will get you to be insecure, needy, ambitious, greedy, aggressive, snotty, competitive, vain, and elitist.  Those are the values that benefit corporate America.  I have friends and family who are well aware of this, but deep down inside they yearn to emulate what the corporate media presents them.  My own sister is one of them.  That's why I get discouraged with her tastes for "Project Runway," and "Sex and the City."

As with height prejudice, next time you see somebody and think "she's fat" or "he's ugly," think where  these ideas come from.

And now I await the protests and the personal attacks!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/headbang.gif

Yes there will always be jerks.  It's not just that I, as a short man, am touchy about the subject of height.  When I hear of parents giving their kids hormones to increase their statures, when I hear of parents buying boob jobs for their teenage daughters, when I hear of the rank prejudice against overweight people, it suggests to be our society is devolving back to eugenics.  More likely, the eugenics movement never left us.  Whenever a couple seeks to buy an egg to implant, the donor always has the same profile: white, blonde, tall, Ivy League college student.

What is the message drilled into our heads: compete, compete, compete!  You must fight tooth and nail to win, win, win, in our competitive, indivdualistic, free enterprise society!  "You never get a second change to make a first impression."  That's right.  To get the edge on your competition in the business world, you must be tall, beautiful, and physically fit. 

The fascist mentality never really went away, it just hibernated after WWII. In the interim we got the Civil Rights legislation.  It is now illegal to discriminate based on race (though the powers that be do so as much as they can get away with), and to a lesser degree it is illegal to discriminate based on sex.  Everything else is fair game. 

When FOX News hired Greta Van Susteren they not only glamorized her hair and her make up, they also changed the physical structure of her face.

Pretty much the only time you see people on TV who aren't rich and good-looking is when they are being arrested or humiliated!

That's what corporate America wants you to see.  It is deliberate.  There is too much money involved for anything TV broadcasts to be unintended.  The giant corporations own all popular media.  FOX News is a billion dollar corporation.  Disney is a billion dollar corporation.  MTV is a billion dollar corporation.  Vivid Video is billion dollar corporation.  I don't think Cosmopolitan or Maxim magazine is, but all popular periodicals exist because billion dollar corporations own them via advertising, so they say what the corporations want said...or else!

I have never seen the corporate media run stories on how it is wrong to discriminate against short men or "ugly" women.  I did see John Stossell present staged demonstrations affirming that women don't like short men, and even little children are magnetically attracted to "beautiful" women.  Therefore, it is an immutable human charactaristic.  Stossell packaged his corporate editorial as "Hey, I'm presenting the hard truth, deal with it!"  There is no hard truth on television.  The corporations will not spend valuable airtime on subjects without first making sure it will benefit their bottom line.

When John Stossel presents a five-foot tall man and says to a beautiful blonde, would you go out with HIM?  What do you think the message is?  When Stossel--as he did--takes the same man, has him dressed in $5000 silk suit standing next to a stretch Mercedes, and the beautiful woman still turns up her nose and says "No way!"  What do you think the message is?  Stossel also pulled a similar stunt with five-year-olds favoring the beautiful woman over the plain one every time.  Insecurity is the message.  Insecurity gets you to buy things.

"What we take into our hands, we take into our hearts."
--Eli Lapp, Witness

The corporate media does not simply sell goods and services.  As you consume it, it sells you values, ideals, and prejudices.  The corporate executives have been studying the effects of mass media for nearly 100 years.  They know this.  They make sure the values, ideals, and prejudices are the ones that will get you to be insecure, needy, ambitious, greedy, aggressive, snotty, competitive, vain, and elitist.  Those are the values that benefit corporate America.  I have friends and family who are well aware of this, but deep down inside they yearn to emulate what the corporate media presents them.  My own sister is one of them.  That's why I get discouraged with her tastes for "Project Runway," and "Sex and the City."

As with height prejudice, next time you see somebody and think "she's fat" or "he's ugly," think where  these ideas come from.

And now I await the protests and the personal attacks!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/headbang.gif
Sorry, the desire to "compete, compete, compete" to "win, win, win" is not a trait that ONLY applies to humans and it has jack squat to do with the corporate blah, blah, blah.  Survival of the fittest is innate in ALL animals.  Look at peacocks, the female will pick and choose to mate with the male with the prettiest feathers.  Which animal gets left behind in a pride of lions when they migrate?  The weak.  It's that way with ANY "group" of animals.

Sorry, the desire to "compete, compete, compete" to "win, win, win" is not a trait that ONLY applies to humans and it has jack squat to do with the corporate blah, blah, blah.  Survival of the fittest is innate in ALL animals.  Look at peacocks, the female will pick and choose to mate with the male with the prettiest feathers.  Which animal gets left behind in a pride of lions when they migrate?  The weak.  It's that way with ANY "group" of animals.

B-b-but I thought maybe with our highly evolved brain and power of reason unique among creatures, we humans could learn to do more than follow the herd and peck the weak to death.  Darn it, I guess I'm just an idealistic old fool with quaint old notions from Athens.  Where did Socrates go?  He was just hear a minute ago.  Looks like I'm all alone in this, this,this "humanity" thing...
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/02/bluecry1.gif

B-b-but I thought maybe with our highly evolved brain and power of reason unique among creatures, we humans could learn to do more than follow the herd and peck the weak to death.

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/02/bluecry1.gif





Tried to say it better, but I couldn't.  We see everyday the consequences of mating by the mirror.  Jessica Simpson and Nick Lachey, Jennifer Anniston and Brad Pitt,  Bogie and Bacall(yeah they stayed married, but he used to slap her around, not a good choice on her part).  The thing about boob jobs for 15/16 year olds, bras for 6 year olds, the right height, the right weight, the right nose, the right hair color, it is all so sick, and we as a society are buying(the emphasis on buy) into it. 

B-b-but I thought maybe with our highly evolved brain and power of reason unique among creatures, we humans could learn to do more than follow the herd and peck the weak to death.  Darn it, I guess I'm just an idealistic old fool with quaint old notions from Athens.  Where did Socrates go?  He was just hear a minute ago.  Looks like I'm all alone in this, this,this "humanity" thing...
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/02/bluecry1.gif
The problem is that most people (you included) don't distinguish between the "naturally beautiful" and the "created beautiful".  Most people cannot help the way they look, but in your eyes, they're no better than those who are "artificially enhanced".  If there was no "competition" in the world, imagine what a horrible place it would be.  It's bad enough now, but society needs people who are stronger in order to survive.  If noone strives to be "better", then there would be no progress.

Am I saying that the world is NOT superficial?  Certainly not.  I admit to being superficial at times, I think we all have (and those who have said they have NEVER been, IMO, are lying to themselves).  I can say for the most part, I am not.  Take my husband for example.....I'm no beauty queen, but we're probably the LAST two people you'd put together if we were in a crowded room and someone said "Okay, pick the couples".  I chose him based on who he was, not what he looked like.

Sorry, the desire to "compete, compete, compete" to "win, win, win" is not a trait that ONLY applies to humans and it has jack squat to do with the corporate blah, blah, blah.  Survival of the fittest is innate in ALL animals.  Look at peacocks, the female will pick and choose to mate with the male with the prettiest feathers.  Which animal gets left behind in a pride of lions when they migrate?  The weak.  It's that way with ANY "group" of animals.


Talk about Darwinism. Perhaps you can lecture us on eugenics?

Well, on the other extreme, I feel I am on the too-tall end of the spectrum. I'm like 6'4", and to boot I'm skinny and I seem to be unable to gain wait no matter how good/bad my eating habits be. I'm also what South Park fans will recognise as a "day-walker," that is, I have reddish hair and though at one time I had the map of Ireland written all over my face in freckles, I now have no freckles on my face (but do on my arms). This means I have quite pale skin which is not really tan material. Alors, tall, skinny, lanky, pasty white guy = me. Not exacty Calvin Klein material. Luckily, I have a great personality! ;) 8)

I don't find that I've ever been "discriminated" against because of my awkward body type, except maybe in the realm of competition for attention from the opposite sex. That's life, and I have plenty to offer, even if I'm not 6' with blonde hair, blue eyes, a million dollars, and an olympian figure. Besides, anyone who's preoccupied with people like that probably isn't worth talking to, let alone pair-bonding with. When I lived in Florida though, it seemed I couldn't go to the beach without acquaintences commenting on my blinding whiteness, but whatever. Pasty's tasty, as I always say.

Talk about Darwinism. Perhaps you can lecture us on eugenics?


I know what Kim is saying.  My screed was not about what animals do.  It's about how we have a brain unique in the animal kingdom. 
1. Power of reason.
2. Free will.
I see a popular culture in the U.S. that discourages us from using either.  The advertising/consumerist culture does a bang up job only loony-toonz brain-washing cults can otherwise achieve. 

Kim offered a Darwinist explanation for height discrimination.  Bigness is a desired genetic quality.  However, it is conditioned into people rather than just purely instinctual.

Here is an analogy.  Why do men prefer women with large breasts?*

*I'm not one of them.  It doesn't make a difference to me.

Kim offered a Darwinist explanation for height discrimination.  Bigness is a desired genetic quality.  However, it is conditioned into people rather than just purely instinctual.

Please back up your assertion that it's conditioned, not instinctual. 



Here is an analogy.  Why do men prefer women with large breasts?*


Hypothesis 1:  Large breasts are a signifier that a female is sufficiently well-nourished to support offspring.  Probably not, because...

...we don't see large breasts being selected for in other great ape species, which leads to the current leading hypothesis:

Hypothesis 2:  They also bear a striking resemblance to buttocks.  Humans are the only surviving primate species to walk upright, and their females are  perpetually in estrus.  Bare buttocks (observed in many primate species) are sufficient to attract the attention of mates and to display sexual receptivity in other primate species, but this strategy isn't going to work in a species that's (a) walking upright, concealing the relevant naughty bits when facing away from you, and (b) whose naughty bits aren't terribly visible, and certainly not anywhere near eye level, when facing you.

Hence, a tendency for upright-walking species to select for female mates who present large round objects towards the males. 

A similar argument can be made for the size ratio of... umm... amount of "frank" versus amount of "beans" in the "meat and two veggies" department for males, when one compares human males to other primate species.

And just to bring this back onto topic for a pop culture board... MC 900 Foot Jesus, Born with Monkey Asses is the most surreal bit of sampling I've ever heard in my life. 

Please back up your assertion that it's conditioned, not instinctual. 
No.


Hypothesis 1:  Large breasts are a signifier that a female is sufficiently well-nourished to support offspring.  Probably not, because...

...we don't see large breasts being selected for in other great ape species, which leads to the current leading hypothesis:

Hypothesis 2:  They also bear a striking resemblance to buttocks.  Humans are the only surviving primate species to walk upright, and their females are  perpetually in estrus.  Bare buttocks (observed in many primate species) are sufficient to attract the attention of mates and to display sexual receptivity in other primate species, but this strategy isn't going to work in a species that's (a) walking upright, concealing the relevant naughty bits when facing away from you, and (b) whose naughty bits aren't terribly visible, and certainly not anywhere near eye level, when facing you.


Yes. These are the two theories I have heard.
Unfortunately, my interest in this topic has taken a precipitous drop today.  Hence my refusal to back up assertions.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/sleep.gif
Talk amongst yourselves if you wish.

Not all men prefer big breasts. I personally find really large breasts to be cowish, and I prefer smaller to medium size, but it's not the most important feature, certainly.

Hypothesis 1:  Large breasts are a signifier that a female is sufficiently well-nourished to support offspring.  Probably not, because...

...we don't see large breasts being selected for in other great ape species, which leads to the current leading hypothesis:

Hypothesis 2:  They also bear a striking resemblance to buttocks.  Humans are the only surviving primate species to walk upright, and their females are  perpetually in estrus.  Bare buttocks (observed in many primate species) are sufficient to attract the attention of mates and to display sexual receptivity in other primate species, but this strategy isn't going to work in a species that's (a) walking upright, concealing the relevant naughty bits when facing away from you, and (b) whose naughty bits aren't terribly visible, and certainly not anywhere near eye level, when facing you.




Then of course there is the hypotheses that claims that it is because as babies it is the first connection to the mother.  I don't believe the size is always but matters, but the fact that they are there.  I wonder if anyone has asked to see if men prefer breast size in relation to the childhood relationship with their mothers.  That could be expanded to see if people in general prefer physical characteristics in relation to the appearance of their parents. 

Talk about Darwinism. Perhaps you can lecture us on eugenics?
Sorry, eugenics was shot down a few decades ago.....see, we ARE a step or two ahead of animals ::) 

Then of course there is the hypotheses that claims that it is because as babies it is the first connection to the mother.  I don't believe the size is always but matters, but the fact that they are there.  I wonder if anyone has asked to see if men prefer breast size in relation to the childhood relationship with their mothers.  That could be expanded to see if people in general prefer physical characteristics in relation to the appearance of their parents.

Yeah, I've heard that, too. Could it be that Sigmund Freud was right?  :o  ;D

Sorry, eugenics was shot down a few decades ago.....see, we ARE a step or two ahead of animals ::) 

It's amazing how many people still hold these simplistic beliefs about genetics.  On the same lines, in high school I wondered why the cheerleading squad was appointed to the football team, not the math club.  This is levity of course.  The jock--cheerleader relationship is a holdover of the caveman mentality.  I found it ironic that the math whizzes were still called "nerds" when mathematical prowess could get you ahead in business, engineering, medicine, and all those lucrative scientific research professions so cherished by the corporatocracy!  Prowess in knocking people down gets you....where?
You see, I did not consider the math whizzes necessarily as benificent.  Sure, those kids might use their brains to find a cure for AIDS.  More likely, they'd end building war machines for Lockheed-Martin or crummy software for Microsoft.  Bill Gates grinned smugly and quipped, "The nerds won!"
I could see that coming as a high school kid in the '80s.  So could my teachers.  So could the schoolboard.  It was plain as day.  Yet, who was honored--and still is honored-- with the great pep rallies and the homecoming parades?  The football team!  In our vestiges of primeval stone age consciousness, we let them symbolize the best hunters and the greatest warriors when they were nothing but a bunch of big dudes who slammed into one another on a big field.  That just ain't what makes the world go around!
:D
This goes a long way to explaining instinct versus conditioning.  The instincts that direct us from our primitive brain are wrong more often than not.  Recently I dissed a co-worker at a meeting.  He dressed me down afterwards, he said the most insulting things he could in just the right way.  He also implied he'd be happy to step outside.   My instinct was to kick the living crap out of him.  I was got soooo "told" I had fantasies about beating the guy black and blue.  "Yeah, you wanna go, Joe, I'm game, any time, any place!"
He never knew I had such thoughts.  Against my "instincts," I used my "free will" to say, "Joe, this is inappropriate behavior.  I'm sorry for getting on your nerves, but we can't act do this kind of thing.  When you've calmed down, we can sit down and talk things over."  The guy quit and I never saw him again.  The insults he cut me down with still made my blood boil.  That's 'coz what he said was mean, but true!  My "instincts" told me to hunt him down and give him what he deserved.  My conscience told me, "Well, you were snickering at him while he was giving his speech, so what do you expect?  You knew better than to behave like that.  What goes around comes around.  You wouldn't have heard those hurtful words had you been a gentleman yourself."

In high school, the team spirit signs screamed "Kill Newburyport!" and "Kill Mascco!"  For what?  Living on the other side of the river?  You can say, now wait a minute, it's all fun and games!  Is it?  What kind of consciousness do we instill in our population with that pro-wrestling grudge theater?  What about the more insidious viciousness of "Survivor" and "American Idol"?  I find most popular forms of entertainment are mean-spiritied and based on establishing the most vulgar states of superiority.  Is it any wonder we have encouraged, not discouraged, such idiocy as height discrimination and cosmetic surgery for teenage girls?

I looked forward to escaping the bogus "competition" and "put-down" mentality of high school.  Now it seems the national consciousness at large is no better than my suburban high school!  I don't belive the uptick in mean-spiritedness we have seen rise since the early '80s is either accidental or just the inescapable nature of things.  I believe it is conditioning for nefarious purposes.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning!

BBC:  Human species 'may split in two'. 

/sees this thread standing in a pool of gasoline in a dark room
//hands it a book of matches
///doesn't need no water, let the mutha*bleep*a burn!
///Born with monkey asses, by the inimitable MC 900 Foot Jesus, and if anyone can figure out the samples, transcribe it to the lyrics board.

Yeah, I've heard that, too. Could it be that Sigmund Freud was right?  :o  ;D


Actually Freuds theory was the one about penis envy.  As I understand it he believed women envied men when they discoved that men had something they didn't- a penis .  He wasn't quite forward thinking enough to observe that perhaps men may be envious of that primal organ introduced to them at the very beginning of their lives, and the power that that organ wielded.  How basic is being fed or being starved to a baby?

Actually Freuds theory was the one about penis envy.  As I understand it he believed women envied men when they discoved that men had something they didn't- a penis .  He wasn't quite forward thinking enough to observe that perhaps men may be envious of that primal organ introduced to them at the very beginning of their lives, and the power that that organ wielded.  How basic is being fed or being starved to a baby?
Freud hypothesized about both in his stages of psychosexual development.  His "oral stage" is based on the mother's nursing habits.....penis envy doesn't come about until around age 5-6 (the phallic stage)

Actually Freuds theory was the one about penis envy.  As I understand it he believed women envied men when they discoved that men had something they didn't- a penis .  He wasn't quite forward thinking enough to observe that perhaps men may be envious of that primal organ introduced to them at the very beginning of their lives, and the power that that organ wielded.  How basic is being fed or being starved to a baby?


No, Sigmund Freud also had a theory that men have a subconscious desire to have sex with their mothers, which stems from early childhood. He called it the "Oedipus Complex":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud#Psychosexual_development

No, Sigmund Freud also had a theory that men have a subconscious desire to have sex with their mothers, which stems from early childhood. He called it the "Oedipus Complex":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud#Psychosexual_development


No? why no?  I was giving one you are giving another.  He had lots and lots.  He also was as big a candidate for the couch as anyone he treated. I have noticed that to be true about most that enter that area of expertise.  Why is it that the kids whose parents are psychologists are almost always screwed up.

Actually Freuds theory was the one about penis envy.  As I understand it he believed women envied men when they discoved that men had something they didn't- a penis .  He wasn't quite forward thinking enough to observe that perhaps men may be envious of that primal organ introduced to them at the very beginning of their lives, and the power that that organ wielded.  How basic is being fed or being starved to a baby?

Envy?  Well, let me tell you somthing.  It's nothing but a big bother.  It compromises your intellect and gets you into more trouble than you ever deal with!

I do remember that when my sister's play fantasy was based on the fairy tales, her favorite prop was always a magic wand.  Hmmm.....
;D

We have to write a personal narrative fairly soon for my AP Language & Composition class...I'm thinking of writing about how it feels to be short, and expanding to general topics about how we have this standard of trying to fix our children, and how my way of walking (I'm pigeontoed), my unconventional style of holding the pen, and my mild speech impediment have negatively impacted my life only because of the "help" people tried to give me for them.

On a semi-related note to the subject of this thread:

Yesterday I was watching C-SPAN and I saw a clip of when Dennis Kucinich recently announced he was running for President. Well he had his new wife there with him, and OMG! :o

Kucinich is a fairly small guy, about 5'4" or 5'5" I think, and if you've ever seen him you know he doesn't exactly look like Brad Pitt. Hes also 60 years old. His wife was this woman who was obviously about 25 years younger than him, a redhead, about a foot taller than him and HOT! She had a pretty face and a very nice figure.

Being a fellow short man at 5'7", I just had to give the guy props(I couldn't think of anywhere else this would fit but this thread). Good for him. 8)

On a semi-related note to the subject of this thread:

Yesterday I was watching C-SPAN and I saw a clip of when Dennis Kucinich recently announced he was running for President. Well he had his new wife there with him, and OMG! :o

Kucinich is a fairly small guy, about 5'4" or 5'5" I think, and if you've ever seen him you know he doesn't exactly look like Brad Pitt. Hes also 60 years old. His wife was this woman who was obviously about 25 years younger than him, a redhead, about a foot taller than him and HOT! She had a pretty face and a very nice figure.

Being a fellow short man at 5'7", I just had to give the guy props(I couldn't think of anywhere else this would fit but this thread). Good for him. 8)


You really aren't short. I hate to say it, but you aren't. Maybe by comparison you are, but short you aren't. Below average, yes. But short, no.

You really aren't short. I hate to say it, but you aren't. Maybe by comparison you are, but short you aren't. Below average, yes. But short, no.


I choose to define myself as short, I am, thats who I am. I may not be as short as you, but that shouldn't disqualify me from being called as such. Average height for males is 5'9"/5'10". I cannot claim to be of normal height, and you want to take being short away from me too. Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

I really don't appreciate being challenged on this.  Quit trying to tell me what I am.

I choose to define myself as short, I am, thats who I am. I may not be as short as you, but that shouldn't disqualify me from being called as such. Average height for males is 5'9"/5'10". I cannot claim to be of normal height, and you want to take being short away from me too. Do you understand where I'm coming from here?

I really don't appreciate being challenged on this.  Quit trying to tell me what I am.


James, Alex is short. Just because you're shorter than him doesn't make him tall or something. Just wanted to clear that up. Look at the statistics.

You really aren't short. I hate to say it, but you aren't. Maybe by comparison you are, but short you aren't. Below average, yes. But short, no.

Dude is a little shorter than average, although height prejudice/discrimination doesn't really start to hit home for average folks until 5'5" or 5'4."  There are a lot of women, including ones you would not think could afford to be fussy, who won't date guys under 5' 10."  There's some speculation that fairly short stature could hurt a man's career in sales, management, showbiz, or politics. 

Dennis Kucinich is a very smart man and an ambitious politician.  He became mayor of Cleveland before he was 30, later Ohio state rep, and then a contender for the Democratic Presidential nomination.  He is a principled man of ideas an convictions that run contrary to fascism.  (He's also a Yogic vegan who whose in much better shape than most guys his eyes...most guys period!). 

It's funny, I did not know his height.  I did know he was shorter and smaller than most guys who get that far in politics.  I didn't think much about his appearance because his ideas were what counted.  Mind you, if he did get anywhere near that nomination, they would have savaged him on his height, just like they did Howard Dean and Michael Dukakis. 

Kucinich may not look like a movie star, but he's rich and famous.  That will get you a "hot" wife.  His current wife is his third, BTW.  However, I wouldn't care if Kucinich's wife was obese and kyphotic.  It's his ideas and charisma that interest me.  He has both, and that's why the mainstream media runs him down.  Sometimes they implicate his size/looks in their consdescension.  Dennis does the right thing.  He doesn't care. 

Dutch Reagan was a charismatic movie star and he was full of ideas, bad ones that weren't even his own!

Think of Paul Simon (the songwriter, not the senator).  Simon is 5' 3."  His second wife was Carrie Fisher, celebrity actress, 15 years his junior.  His third and current wife is Edie Brickell, celebrity pop singer, is 25 years his junior.  It helps to be rich and famous, and Paul knows which side the bread is buttered on! 

Like Kucinich, Simon made his career on ideas, talent, and hard work.  Plus Simon is a great guy!  He and Edie are still married after 15 years ("Still Crazy After All These Years"?  Perhaps!)  The thing is, I couldn't stand Edie Brickell, but she must have something going for her if she bagged Paul Simon!
8)


Kucinich--Simon coincidence

Both men have been married three times.
Kucinich's current wife is named Elizabeth Harper.
Simon's first wife was named Peggy Harper.
Simon's son is also named Harper, presumably honoring his wife's maiden name.

I wasn't trying to say Kucininich's wife's looks have anything to do with the importance of his political convictions. What I was saying was purely non-political, it was just a "good for him" kind of thing, nothing more. Interesting parallel between Kucinich and Simon though. I've been a big fan of Dennis Kucinich since the last time around, he actually speaks truth and faithfully represents his convictions. Seems like almost every other politician in Washington plays the game at least to a certain extent but him.

Dennis Kucinich is my representative actually, several years ago I remember seeing him speaking at my old school. He definitely represents the interests of the area and is not a "washington politician".

Dude is a little shorter than average, although height prejudice/discrimination doesn't really start to hit home for average folks until 5'5" or 5'4." 


Actually it does in one are at my height and you mentioned it, the whole dating scene. There are a certain amount of women who like tall guys, period. Like you say they don't date guys under 5'10" or so, and its not just because they're tall, many of them are normal height for a woman(5'4"..5'5").

I understand in that area though, its just a preference thing. Now of course if its taken to an extreme, like a guy is almost everything the woman wants except for being a little short and she doesn't give him a chance because of that, well then thats pretty stupid but its just my opinion so it doesn't matter what I think.

I tend to prefer taller women and I can tell from browsing Yahoo! personals, most women don't like that. You really have to look hard to find one who doesn't mind a height difference.

Thats just the way gender roles tend to be in our Western society and if you have a more non-traditional viewpoint on sexuality your options are going to become more limited.

Actually it does in one are at my height and you mentioned it, the whole dating scene. There are a certain amount of women who like tall guys, period. Like you say they don't date guys under 5'10" or so, and its not just because they're tall, many of them are normal height for a woman(5'4"..5'5").

I understand in that area though, its just a preference thing. Now of course if its taken to an extreme, like a guy is almost everything the woman wants except for being a little short and she doesn't give him a chance because of that, well then thats pretty stupid but its just my opinion so it doesn't matter what I think.

I tend to prefer taller women and I can tell from browsing Yahoo! personals, most women don't like that. You really have to look hard to find one who doesn't mind a height difference.

Thats just the way gender roles tend to be in our Western society and if you have a more non-traditional viewpoint on sexuality your options are going to become more limited.


With dating, it's not primarily height for me, though it does play a major role.  What I find is there's a narrow band of interests most folks have, and I don't share most of those interests.  I speak, think, and behave differently from your average guy.  I've always been a social "misfit" for better and for worse.  I thought the "eeew you're weird" factor would abate after high school.  Then I discovered our culture is one big suburban high school, so I just learned to live with it!
;D

With dating, it's not primarily height for me, though it does play a major role.  What I find is there's a narrow band of interests most folks have, and I don't share most of those interests.  I speak, think, and behave differently from your average guy.  I've always been a social "misfit" for better and for worse.  I thought the "eeew you're weird" factor would abate after high school.  Then I discovered our culture is one big suburban high school, so I just learned to live with it!
;D


You're so right dude. I thought after high school things would change as well and its only been a year and a half since I've been out but I can already see that things don't REALLY change. People are always going to be the same.

I know where you're coming from with the "eeew you're weird" factor as well. I fit into that category! ;D

You're so right dude. I thought after high school things would change as well and its only been a year and a half since I've been out but I can already see that things don't REALLY change. People are always going to be the same.

I know where you're coming from with the "eeew you're weird" factor as well. I fit into that category! ;D



ya know Alex...there will always be the jerks of the world...the ones that are so close-minded...the ones that are so judgemental, etc. I encounter people like that. There are some people who just do not like overweight people...and no matter how nice, or pretty, or educated the "overweight" individual may be...they refuse to give them the time of day....and all they usually give willingly is a sneer or a rude comment.  However, I have learned that once I enrolled in college...just how different it was than high school, IMO.  The majority of the people (yes, you still had your few a-holes) were there for an education....and it seemed like their maturity rose a bit.  I really feel like this move to Florida is going to do you some good. Just try to mingle, join in different social situations, get involved, etc...give people a chance...there ARE some decent ones out there! ;)

ya know Alex...there will always be the jerks of the world...the ones that are so close-minded...the ones that are so judgemental, etc. I encounter people like that. There are some people who just do not like overweight people...and no matter how nice, or pretty, or educated the "overweight" individual may be...they refuse to give them the time of day....and all they usually give willingly is a sneer or a rude comment.  However, I have learned that once I enrolled in college...just how different it was than high school, IMO.  The majority of the people (yes, you still had your few a-holes) were there for an education....and it seemed like their maturity rose a bit.  I really feel like this move to Florida is going to do you some good. Just try to mingle, join in different social situations, get involved, etc...give people a chance...there ARE some decent ones out there! ;)


Yeah, I guess we had a different college experience. Mine seemed just like high school.

Thanks for the encouragement though, I think I'll have more fun in Florida.

I wouldn't have wanted to go to one of those small colleges.  Too much like high school.  There are thousands of cliquish-types at big universities who remain perpetually in high school, they're just easy to ignore.  UMass was like a small city unto itself.  We had students from all backgrounds and students of varying ages.  The place was just too big and too diverse for an "in crowd" to fom.  Or, rather, there were dozens of "in crowds," take your pick...or don't.  You only got caught up in a social hierarchy if you chose to do so. 

What I meant was I find the mass media that informs social attitudes to have a mental age of about fifteen.

With dating, it's not primarily height for me, though it does play a major role.  What I find is there's a narrow band of interests most folks have, and I don't share most of those interests.  I speak, think, and behave differently from your average guy.  I've always been a social "misfit" for better and for worse.  I thought the "eeew you're weird" factor would abate after high school.  Then I discovered our culture is one big suburban high school, so I just learned to live with it!
;D
I was a social misfit for a long time and still am, a little bit. I also had the "eww you're weird" factor going for a long time (and when I run into people I went to high school with I still get that a lot, but the hell with them).  But I also believe that the "eeew you're weird" factor has more to do with not being comfortable around people (which, in turn, makes them feel uncomfortable) than it does with being a little different. I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty weird, but I've learned to be more outgoing and embrace my weirdness as an asset (and not be afraid to joke with complete strangers, which in turn makes me more likeable), as opposed to being self-conscious about being different and worrying what others think.

I wasn't trying to say Kucininich's wife's looks have anything to do with the importance of his political convictions. What I was saying was purely non-political, it was just a "good for him" kind of thing, nothing more. Interesting parallel between Kucinich and Simon though. I've been a big fan of Dennis Kucinich since the last time around, he actually speaks truth and faithfully represents his convictions. Seems like almost every other politician in Washington plays the game at least to a certain extent but him.
well, i bet his politics has a LOT to do with the reason SHE's with him.

by the way, the idea of young chicks is great in theory, but in practice it can be quite goofy. you end up with nothing to talk with them about, and they always in the back of their mind know they have this power because they're younger. i've had a couple of these things with girls ten years my junior and have never found it fulfilling; it's tough to get true companionship with someone who's not atbout your age.

by the way, the idea of young chicks is great in theory, but in practice it can be quite goofy. you end up with nothing to talk with them about, and they always in the back of their mind know they have this power because they're younger. i've had a couple of these things with girls ten years my junior and have never found it fulfilling; it's tough to get true companionship with someone who's not atbout your age.


Eh, its not always the case. There are several cases of it among my relatives. My aunt has been happily married to a dude about 15 years younger since '98.

But I can see how it could be a problem in a lot of cases.

Alex I wouldn't get too put off by the height thing with internet dating either. Most girls if asked would put down a height taller than theirs but once they meet a guy , if the right chemistry is there it probably won't matter to most of them.Of course there are always exceptions but they probably aren't worth getting to know in the first place!

Alex I wouldn't get too put off by the height thing with internet dating either. Most girls if asked would put down a height taller than theirs but once they meet a guy , if the right chemistry is there it probably won't matter to most of them.Of course there are always exceptions but they probably aren't worth getting to know in the first place!


Actually I thought about that, especially in cases where I wasn't too far below what they were listed, so I sent them a wink anyhow. Perhaps being confident despite that being there will end up as a plus in their eye's, I dunno.