http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061113/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/wiccan_soldier_2



Good for them. I am behind them 100%.  Being a vet and a Wiccan, I can really relate to this.




Cat

Wiccans=Witchcraft=evil  Gads, get a clue people.  Maybe society hasn't progressed.  I love a good lawsuit, too bad it had to come to that!

OK, if V.A. won't allow the pentacle on headstones, then as a God-fearing Christian, I want the government to rebuild defense headquarters.  The Pentagon is a Satanic design and was built in collusion with the Illuminati.  I want the Pentagon razed and replaced with a cross-shaped building called the Crucifix!
:P

It's just prespammersite that the Army won't recognize the religion.  Good for these ladies!

God, some people are too stupid to live.  Why can't the Wiccan symbol be on a headstone?  If the Army Chaplain's Handbook has a notation about Wicca in it, if Wiccan services are allowed to be performed....WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?  Good Lord have mercy.

The problem is many-fold.  Now I am not saying which way I believe, but you have to realize that we are dealing with a Government Beaurocracy.

The major difference with Wicca is that it has no "Central Belief System".  There is no single code they agree upon, no "senior councel", no hard written "rules".  There is no central "Holy Book" for them all to turn to for guidance.

In reality, it is not unlike the state of the Christian faith 1,600 years ago.  Before Constantine got all the leading Bishops together, Christianity was spread out among thousands of different groups.  They all had their own bibles, their own worship system, even different requirements as to who could conduct services and what symbols they used.  Some used the traditional Jewish symbols, some used the fish, some used various forms of crosses.  Even the cross was not standardized, with some useing a cross like a "T", some with what we recognize as the traditional cross, some even used a cross shaped like an "X".

Wicca faces those problems when it comes to finding recognition among Government entities.  Because it is a de-centralized religion, there is nobody to say "These are our core rules, these are our core beliefs, these are our accepted symbols".  Buddhists run into the same problem, because there are so many different sects, and they all can't agree on a single unified symbol to use for all of them.

And it is not something as simple as "puit on a penticle".  Because if they did, then you would then have a Wiccan group complain that the symbol is not their symbol.  They may portray theirs with one of the point on the top, or the bottom.  Some may want a circle, while others will want a 5 sided pentagram around theirs.  One group I know of uses a "Thor's Hammer", which looks a lot like an upside-down cross.  Then there is the coven that a friend of mine belongs to that uses a representation of Elk horns for their symbol.  If my friend's son joined the military and was killed, would they then have to use that symbol as well?

And I am not even going to try and get into the more "Pagan" Wicca sects, that use the symbols of even older Gods like Odin, Osiris, and Isis among others.

I think more then anything else, this is simply one of those cases where there is no "standard" which they can really use.  And if they did decide on one, you would suddenly have 200 groups pop up and protest, because it is not "their" symbol, but the symbol of "Another Wicca Group".


God, some people are too stupid to live.  Why can't the Wiccan symbol be on a headstone?  If the Army Chaplain's Handbook has a notation about Wicca in it, if Wiccan services are allowed to be performed....WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?  Good Lord have mercy.


This is the exact same problem.  There is no "standard" upon which to use, because Wicca is a non-standardized religion.

A lot of people do not realize the "dispositions" that Military members of various faiths are given by their religions.  For example, both Jewish and Muslim servicemembers are given dispositions that allow them to eat non-Kosher foods.  They are also allowed to forgo the ritual prayers expected by their faith, if it interferes with their performance of their duties.  And the Clergy of the various services are given special dispositions to perform many rituals, suck as "Last Rites".

Now normally, for a Catholic to get "legal" Last Rites, it must be performed by a member of the Catholic clergy.  But all military clergy have permission from the Vatican to perform Last Rites, no matter what their base faith is.  And the same goes for all religions.  This is something almost unheard of in the "Civilian World", but in the military it is accepted as routine.  I have had Catholic clergy give Protestant services, and all Protestant clergy are expected to be able to perform Catholic mass.

Which returns us back to the problem of "standardization".  Under Wicca, there is no standard "belief system".  The US Military really only "recognizes" 4 basic faiths, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, and Muslim.  And for the most part they avoid the little things that differentiate between the various sects (like Methodist-Baptist, Sunni-Shi'ite, or Orthadox-Ultra Orthadox Jewish), and stick to "core beliefs".  With Wicca this is simply not possible, because it is not so much a "religion", as a conglomeration of hundreds of different religions (much as "Protestentism" is a congolomeration of hundreds of various Christian faiths).

I think if it's their headstone, they should be able to choose what is put on it in re: "religious symbols".

The problem is many-fold.  Now I am not saying which way I believe, but you have to realize that we are dealing with a Government Beaurocracy.

The major difference with Wicca is that it has no "Central Belief System".  There is no single code they agree upon, no "senior councel", no hard written "rules".  There is no central "Holy Book" for them all to turn to for guidance.

In reality, it is not unlike the state of the Christian faith 1,600 years ago.  Before Constantine got all the leading Bishops together, Christianity was spread out among thousands of different groups.  They all had their own bibles, their own worship system, even different requirements as to who could conduct services and what symbols they used.  Some used the traditional Jewish symbols, some used the fish, some used various forms of crosses.  Even the cross was not standardized, with some useing a cross like a "T", some with what we recognize as the traditional cross, some even used a cross shaped like an "X".

Wicca faces those problems when it comes to finding recognition among Government entities.  Because it is a de-centralized religion, there is nobody to say "These are our core rules, these are our core beliefs, these are our accepted symbols".  Buddhists run into the same problem, because there are so many different sects, and they all can't agree on a single unified symbol to use for all of them.

And it is not something as simple as "puit on a penticle".  Because if they did, then you would then have a Wiccan group complain that the symbol is not their symbol.  They may portray theirs with one of the point on the top, or the bottom.  Some may want a circle, while others will want a 5 sided pentagram around theirs.  One group I know of uses a "Thor's Hammer", which looks a lot like an upside-down cross.  Then there is the coven that a friend of mine belongs to that uses a representation of Elk horns for their symbol.  If my friend's son joined the military and was killed, would they then have to use that symbol as well?

And I am not even going to try and get into the more "Pagan" Wicca sects, that use the symbols of even older Gods like Odin, Osiris, and Isis among others.

I think more then anything else, this is simply one of those cases where there is no "standard" which they can really use.  And if they did decide on one, you would suddenly have 200 groups pop up and protest, because it is not "their" symbol, but the symbol of "Another Wicca Group".

This is the exact same problem.  There is no "standard" upon which to use, because Wicca is a non-standardized religion.

A lot of people do not realize the "dispositions" that Military members of various faiths are given by their religions.  For example, both Jewish and Muslim servicemembers are given dispositions that allow them to eat non-Kosher foods.  They are also allowed to forgo the ritual prayers expected by their faith, if it interferes with their performance of their duties.  And the Clergy of the various services are given special dispositions to perform many rituals, suck as "Last Rites".

Now normally, for a Catholic to get "legal" Last Rites, it must be performed by a member of the Catholic clergy.  But all military clergy have permission from the Vatican to perform Last Rites, no matter what their base faith is.  And the same goes for all religions.  This is something almost unheard of in the "Civilian World", but in the military it is accepted as routine.  I have had Catholic clergy give Protestant services, and all Protestant clergy are expected to be able to perform Catholic mass.

Which returns us back to the problem of "standardization".  Under Wicca, there is no standard "belief system".  The US Military really only "recognizes" 4 basic faiths, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, and Muslim.  And for the most part they avoid the little things that differentiate between the various sects (like Methodist-Baptist, Sunni-Shi'ite, or Orthadox-Ultra Orthadox Jewish), and stick to "core beliefs".  With Wicca this is simply not possible, because it is not so much a "religion", as a conglomeration of hundreds of different religions (much as "Protestentism" is a congolomeration of hundreds of various Christian faiths).



I beg to differ, Mushroom. Wicca DOES have a central belief system. It is called the Wicca Rede. It is true that Wicca is practiced in as many different ways as there are practitioners, but MOST recognize the Wicca Rede as the "Bible" so to speak. And MOST Wiccan do recognize the pentacle as THE symbol of Wicca (with the central point in the up position-in the down position is the symbol for Satanism). I stress the word MOST because it is true that there are some who do not use either in their practice. You can say the same thing about Christianity. Some will us just a plain cross, others the Celtic cross, and some the Crucifix.

The point being in this lawsuit (as well as others) we (my fellow witches) are trying to get Wicca recognized as legitimate religion-which it is. We are blessed to live in a country that claims to have freedom of religion and we just want that our religion be recognized by the Government as well as the public at large and have the same rights and priviliges that others have in practicing their religions of choice.  I don't think that is so much to ask.



Cat

I beg to differ, Mushroom. Wicca DOES have a central belief system. It is called the Wicca Rede. It is true that Wicca is practiced in as many different ways as there are practitioners, but MOST recognize the Wicca Rede as the "Bible" so to speak.


Rede Of The Wiccae
Circa 1974

Being known as the counsel of the Wise Ones:
Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust.
Live an

I beg to differ, Mushroom. Wicca DOES have a central belief system. It is called the Wicca Rede. It is true that Wicca is practiced in as many different ways as there are practitioners, but MOST recognize the Wicca Rede as the "Bible" so to speak. And MOST Wiccan do recognize the pentacle as THE symbol of Wicca (with the central point in the up position-in the down position is the symbol for Satanism). I stress the word MOST because it is true that there are some who do not use either in their practice. You can say the same thing about Christianity. Some will us just a plain cross, others the Celtic cross, and some the Crucifix.

The point being in this lawsuit (as well as others) we (my fellow witches) are trying to get Wicca recognized as legitimate religion-which it is. We are blessed to live in a country that claims to have freedom of religion and we just want that our religion be recognized by the Government as well as the public at large and have the same rights and priviliges that others have in practicing their religions of choice.  I don't think that is so much to ask.



Cat

Both Cat and Mushroom raise good points here.  The problem with the core of the Wiccan Rede, An it harm none, do what ye will, is the fluidity of interpretation.  You can interpret it as a moral code just like the Golden Rule, or you can interpret it as a call to hedonism.  Aleister Crowley and Satanists on down the line have used  "Do what thou wilt" but "No harm to others" as a disclaimer.  Selfishness is revered among Satanists, and selfishness inevitably harms others.  Wiccans are not Satanists, but both mystic faiths draw from the same wells.  I believe Wiccans are sincere in their creed.  I believe Satanists are F.O.S.  

Neo-nazis sometimes anchor their hate-based beliefs in faux-Paganism based on Teutonic/Norse mythology.  If the military allows Wiccans to use the Pentacle, they then have to justify why they would not allow the Odinist to use the swastika.  An Odinist ar a Jain could make a compelling argument the swastika is a sacred symbol originating in neolothic Eurasia and predates by thousands of years the nazi misappropration of the symbol.  (What would a Jain be doing in the army, anyway?  Never mind.) If I was an Odinist who wanted to use the swastika, I would point the finger right back at the Christians and ask, "What harm has been done in the name of the holy cross?  What about the Spanish Inquisition?  The Westboro Baptist Church bears the cross, what do you say to that?"

Christianity claims to have a central core of beliefs, but the interpretations range from Fred Phelps' "God Hates F@gs" Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka to the Unitarian Church here in Amherst that flies the rainbow flag  and says, "You're Alive Because God Loves You."  Among Pagan believers, you have vegan peaceniks following Rudolph Steiner's Anthrosophical Society, the same as you have goth hoodlums from the Temple of Set.

One of the problems with Wicca versus Christianity/Islam/Judaism is sheer numbers.  Billions belong to denominations of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.  These organized religions have bonded family, community, and culture together for hundreds of years.  They are passed down generation after generation.  I do not mean to suggest time and numbers makes Christianity and Islam legit and Wicca not legit.  I'm just stating fact.  What was the total number of Wiccan/Pagan devotees at last count?  How do you parse the Wiccans from the Pagans from the Odinists?  Whose keeping track?  A lot of folks become Wiccans/Pagans because they want no part of the authoritarianism, the patriarchy, and the hypocrisy inherent in "organized religion."  They want to find their own way.  This is not conducive to cohesive congregations and multi-generational heritage.

Regarding the major Eastern religions--Buddhism, Hundism, Suphism--how does these fail to meet the same criteria that get Christianity, Judaism, and Islam recognized by the U.S. military?
???

Both Cat and Mushroom raise good points here.  The problem with the core of the Wiccan Rede, An it harm none, do what ye will, is the fluidity of interpretation.  You can interpret it as a moral code just like the Golden Rule, or you can interpret it as a call to hedonism.  Aleister Crowley and Satanists on down the line have used  "Do what thou wilt" but "No harm to others" as a disclaimer.  Selfishness is revered among Satanists, and selfishness inevitably harms others.  Wiccans are not Satanists, but both mystic faiths draw from the same wells.  I believe Wiccans are sincere in their creed.  I believe Satanists are F.O.S.  

Neo-nazis sometimes anchor their hate-based beliefs in faux-Paganism based on Teutonic/Norse mythology.  If the military allows Wiccans to use the Pentacle, they then have to justify why they would not allow the Odinist to use the swastika.  An Odinist ar a Jain could make a compelling argument the swastika is a sacred symbol originating in neolothic Eurasia and predates by thousands of years the nazi misappropration of the symbol.  (What would a Jain be doing in the army, anyway?  Never mind.) If I was an Odinist who wanted to use the swastika, I would point the finger right back at the Christians and ask, "What harm has been done in the name of the holy cross?  What about the Spanish Inquisition?  The Westboro Baptist Church bears the cross, what do you say to that?"

Christianity claims to have a central core of beliefs, but the interpretations range from Fred Phelps' "God Hates F@gs" Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka to the Unitarian Church here in Amherst that flies the rainbow flag  and says, "You're Alive Because God Loves You."  Among Pagan believers, you have vegan peaceniks following Rudolph Steiner's Anthrosophical Society, the same as you have goth hoodlums from the Temple of Set.

One of the problems with Wicca versus Christianity/Islam/Judaism is sheer numbers.  Billions belong to denominations of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.  These organized religions have bonded family, community, and culture together for hundreds of years.  They are passed down generation after generation.  I do not mean to suggest time and numbers makes Christianity and Islam legit and Wicca not legit.  I'm just stating fact.  What was the total number of Wiccan/Pagan devotees at last count?  How do you parse the Wiccans from the Pagans from the Odinists?  Whose keeping track?  A lot of folks become Wiccans/Pagans because they want no part of the authoritarianism, the patriarchy, and the hypocrisy inherent in "organized religion."  They want to find their own way.  This is not conducive to cohesive congregations and multi-generational heritage.

Regarding the major Eastern religions--Buddhism, Hundism, Suphism--how does these fail to meet the same criteria that get Christianity, Judaism, and Islam recognized by the U.S. military?
???


You're exactly right on christianity, there are so many differences between denominations. First you have Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox, which all splinter into various groups themselves. There's some christian groups that believe in the trinity and there's others that hold a different view. The bible can be interpreted in so many different ways that you end up with all these variations.

Both Cat and Mushroom raise good points here.  The problem with the core of the Wiccan Rede, An it harm none, do what ye will, is the fluidity of interpretation.  You can interpret it as a moral code just like the Golden Rule, or you can interpret it as a call to hedonism.  Aleister Crowley and Satanists on down the line have used  "Do what thou wilt" but "No harm to others" as a disclaimer.  Selfishness is revered among Satanists, and selfishness inevitably harms others.  Wiccans are not Satanists, but both mystic faiths draw from the same wells.  I believe Wiccans are sincere in their creed.  I believe Satanists are F.O.S.  

Christianity claims to have a central core of beliefs, but the interpretations range from Fred Phelps' "God Hates F@gs" Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka to the Unitarian Church here in Amherst that flies the rainbow flag  and says, "You're Alive Because God Loves You."  Among Pagan believers, you have vegan peaceniks following Rudolph Steiner's Anthrosophical Society, the same as you have goth hoodlums from the Temple of Set.

One of the problems with Wicca versus Christianity/Islam/Judaism is sheer numbers.  


*edited by me for brevity*

The first and last parts come close to why I think this will meet with resistance by beaurocrats.  And it really is not as much numbers, as it is history.

Most of the "Recognized" religions have a very long history, dating from 1,400+ years old.  Islam is around 1,400 years old.  Christinaity (pose "Councel Of Nicea) is 1,600 years old.  The Jewish Faith is in excess of 2,500 years old.  They all have their differences between the various sects, but they also have some common agreements that date back tens of centuries.  These are long standing traditions, that have been passed down both orally and in writing, that hundreds of generations have followed.

Modern Wicca only came about in the last century.  And the fractured status makes it hard for government officials to be comfortable stating "this is the way things are" with them.  There is no leading council or official to go to for answers.  There are no 1,000+ year documents to go back to for guidence.  And remember, I am not talking about my personal beliefs of the religion, but how beaurocrats percieve it.  At least with "The Big Three", there are long standing traditions as to when the Holy days are, the Sabbath, and what and how special services are to be performed (last rites, extreme unction, etc).  And their symbols are very old and commonly accepted.

Fred Phelps is an in-bred piece of camel dung, and it makes me nautious that he even claims to be a Christian minister.  And I am sure that most (over 90%) Christians would agree with me in that respect.  To true Christians, Fred Phelps has as much respect as Dr. William Pierce.  No matter what he says, I would be happier having a "fag" in my barracks, then in having Fred Phelps even living on the same planet as I do.  Because I could not care less if somebody was a "fag", but I do care about people who spew hatred with every breath they take.  He is an evil hatefull man, and he and his entire in-bred family are going to hell as far as I am concerned.

There is a survey at CNN. Please go and take it.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/13/widows.suit.ap/index.html



Cat

Perhaps I did not make myself clear.  I don't think it is right for the U.S. military to discriminate against a fallen soldiers spiritual beliefs.  All I was saying above is that broadening spiritual symbology brings up complicated questions.  We don't shrink away from things just because they're complicated.  One of the freedoms you protect in defense of this country is freedom of religion.  If you worship the kitchen sink, you ought to be able to have the kitchen sink on your military headstone!
8)

I've read the above posts, but to me it boils down to this:

How hard is to to engrave a headstone? I mean, all are hand-engraved, right? So how hard is it to engrave whatever the person (or family) wants? We're not talking about building a mausoleum out of precious gems here, we're talking about carving a symbol into a piece of granite (?).

These soldiers served their country; they should be able to get anything they want on their headstone.

Where are they being buried?
Why do they have to have a military headstone anyway? Can't they bring them back to thier local cemetary and have whatever they want on the stone?

Where are they being buried?
Why do they have to have a military headstone anyway? Can't they bring them back to thier local cemetary and have whatever they want on the stone?



Some people want to be buried in a military cemetary.  For them it's an honor.  My uncle wants to be buried at Arlington National Cemetary after he dies, since he served during Vietnam. 

Where are they being buried?
Why do they have to have a military headstone anyway? Can't they bring them back to thier local cemetary and have whatever they want on the stone?


The vast majority of Veterans choose to be burried in Civilian cemetaries.  And the vast majority of those have normal civilian headstones.  Because like anybody else, most Veterans want to be burried with their family.  And that is simply not possible in a VA Cemetary.

All plots in such a cemetary are "first come - first served".  Even if both a husband and wife were veterans, they would not be burried together unless they happen to have died together.  For obvious reasons, that is simply not done.  And because VA tombstones are so bland (the give simply the name, dates of birth and death, branch of service, rank, and conflicts they served in), most veterans choose to not use the offered headstone.

And the "Religious Symbols" are really very simplified, only showing the general religion.  If you are Catholic, Presbyterian, or Greek Orthadox, you get a simple cross.  The symbols are very muted, because the idea is to concentrate on remembering the veterans themselves, not their religion.

The old classic "Cross" fell out of use after WWII.  I think the cemetary at Normandy was the last time they were widely used.  Now they are of the classical "tombstone" shape.



Some people want to be buried in a military cemetary.  For them it's an honor.  My uncle wants to be buried at Arlington National Cemetary after he dies, since he served during Vietnam. 


Arlington is the hardest cemetary to get into.  You pretty much need to be a General, have fought in WWII, died in combat, or have recieved a Bronze Star for valor (or higher) award.  This is because they have been running out of room there for years.  After over 140 years of service, they are running out of room for the people who want to be burried there, and have had to restrict who they allow in.

Myself, I have chosen to be burried in the Veterans Cemetary at Andersonville, Georgia.  I visited there last summer, and it was one of the most moving experiences in my life.  It is a very peacefull place, that belies the horrors of the place during the Civil War.

A lot of people do not realize that among those interred at Arlington, one of them is Lee Marvin.  A US Marine and veteran of the Saipan invasion, he then went on to an acomplished film career.  His placement in Arlington was his choice.  And now he rests along with tens of thousands of others like him.  Nothing sets him apart from the Private that died in the Civil War, the Lieutenant that served in World War I, or the Corpral that died in Vietnam.  Nothing says he was a star of stage and screen, simply that he served his country.

My step-father is buried in Arlington Cemetary. If I am not mistaken, my mother will also be buried there-in the same plot as my step-father.




Cat

I hadn't heard of this, Cat.
Thanks for sharing it.

I personally don't plan on having a headstone, but the fallen soldier and fellow Wiccans in the military should have their final wishes. PERIOD.

Another thing- How can one be a Wiccan and a combat soldier?
It kind of seems like an oxymoron to me...

I hadn't heard of this, Cat.
Thanks for sharing it.

I personally don't plan on having a headstone, but the fallen soldier and fellow Wiccans in the military should have their final wishes. PERIOD.

Another thing- How can one be a Wiccan and a combat soldier?
It kind of seems like an oxymoron to me...



Yeah, it is kind of an oxymoron. However, there are many who joined BEFORE this country went to war. I served during peace time (even thought I didn't realize that I was a witch at time). There are many, many reasons why people join the military so who knows why some Wiccans join to be a combat soldier. I'm sure they have their reasons.



Cat

Another thing- How can one be a Wiccan and a combat soldier?
It kind of seems like an oxymoron to me...


Not really.  In fact, one of the greatest fighting soldiers in the history of the US Army was a "Conscientious Objector", Sergeant Alvin York.

One of the most pacifistic religions in the US is the Quakers.  Yet a great many Quakers have also served in the military.  Daniel Boone, Gen. Smedley Butler, Gen. Nathanael Greene, Piers Anthony, even Richard Nixon was a member of the "Society Of Friends".  Richard Nixon even declined a full scholarship to Harvard, so he could attend Whittier College, a Quaker founded college in California.  During WWII, he even choose to leave a successfull law practice and joined the Navy as an officer.  But because of his religion he was assigned to stateside duties (as were a great many Quakers - allowing Concientious Objectors to serve, without them having to go into combat).

And I consider myself to be a pacifist as well.  The thought of causing pain or death to others is something I find very distressing.  And in every instance where I have been dealt with violently in the last 20+ years, I have made the decision to "turn the other cheek".  And people never understand how they can treat me badly one day, and I will greet them warmly the next.  This is simply because I do not hold grudges.  Life is far to short to waste time and effort harboring anger towards others.

There is absolutely nothing that prevents a Pacifist from being in the military.  Or for that matter, a pacifist for serving in the combat arms (I served in the Infantry for 10 years).  Because in combat, you are mostly fighting to keep members of your unit alive.  And on a larger scale, you are fighting not for yourself, but for your country and it's citizens.  While I would walk away if somebody struck me in a bar, I would fight with all my being for the life of somebody in my unit, or for my nation.

And historically, the military spends far more time "at peace" then it does "at war".  And a lot of people choose to join segments of the military that actually work to preserve life.  Both the Chaplain Corps and the Medical Corps have long been a haven for pacifists who want to serve their country, but not have to engague in combat.

I'd comment, but I can't access that article. Then again, I can't access much at all at school.

The problem is many-fold.  Now I am not saying which way I believe, but you have to realize that we are dealing with a Government Beaurocracy.

The major difference with Wicca is that it has no "Central Belief System".  There is no single code they agree upon, no "senior councel", no hard written "rules".  There is no central "Holy Book" for them all to turn to for guidance.

In reality, it is not unlike the state of the Christian faith 1,600 years ago.  Before Constantine got all the leading Bishops together, Christianity was spread out among thousands of different groups.  They all had their own bibles, their own worship system, even different requirements as to who could conduct services and what symbols they used.  Some used the traditional Jewish symbols, some used the fish, some used various forms of crosses.  Even the cross was not standardized, with some useing a cross like a "T", some with what we recognize as the traditional cross, some even used a cross shaped like an "X".

Wicca faces those problems when it comes to finding recognition among Government entities.  Because it is a de-centralized religion, there is nobody to say "These are our core rules, these are our core beliefs, these are our accepted symbols".  Buddhists run into the same problem, because there are so many different sects, and they all can't agree on a single unified symbol to use for all of them.

And it is not something as simple as "puit on a penticle".  Because if they did, then you would then have a Wiccan group complain that the symbol is not their symbol.  They may portray theirs with one of the point on the top, or the bottom.  Some may want a circle, while others will want a 5 sided pentagram around theirs.  One group I know of uses a "Thor's Hammer", which looks a lot like an upside-down cross.  Then there is the coven that a friend of mine belongs to that uses a representation of Elk horns for their symbol.  If my friend's son joined the military and was killed, would they then have to use that symbol as well?

And I am not even going to try and get into the more "Pagan" Wicca sects, that use the symbols of even older Gods like Odin, Osiris, and Isis among others.

I think more then anything else, this is simply one of those cases where there is no "standard" which they can really use.  And if they did decide on one, you would suddenly have 200 groups pop up and protest, because it is not "their" symbol, but the symbol of "Another Wicca Group".

This is the exact same problem.  There is no "standard" upon which to use, because Wicca is a non-standardized religion.

A lot of people do not realize the "dispositions" that Military members of various faiths are given by their religions.  For example, both Jewish and Muslim servicemembers are given dispositions that allow them to eat non-Kosher foods.  They are also allowed to forgo the ritual prayers expected by their faith, if it interferes with their performance of their duties.  And the Clergy of the various services are given special dispositions to perform many rituals, suck as "Last Rites".

Now normally, for a Catholic to get "legal" Last Rites, it must be performed by a member of the Catholic clergy.  But all military clergy have permission from the Vatican to perform Last Rites, no matter what their base faith is.  And the same goes for all religions.  This is something almost unheard of in the "Civilian World", but in the military it is accepted as routine.  I have had Catholic clergy give Protestant services, and all Protestant clergy are expected to be able to perform Catholic mass.

Which returns us back to the problem of "standardization".  Under Wicca, there is no standard "belief system".  The US Military really only "recognizes" 4 basic faiths, Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, and Muslim.  And for the most part they avoid the little things that differentiate between the various sects (like Methodist-Baptist, Sunni-Shi'ite, or Orthadox-Ultra Orthadox Jewish), and stick to "core beliefs".  With Wicca this is simply not possible, because it is not so much a "religion", as a conglomeration of hundreds of different religions (much as "Protestentism" is a congolomeration of hundreds of various Christian faiths).


  I think what you're saying is that Wicca could be classified as a non-mainstream religion or pseudoreligion along with Scientology or Nation of Islam or Rastafari Movement or Afrocantrism.  Schools-of-thought, political movements, really, more than bona fide "religions"...

  Borrowing from Wiki:

  Any religion lacking a guiding coherent theology is a pseudo-religion.
  Any religion entirely self referential is a pseudo-religion.
  Any religion whose only fruit is adherence to itself is a pseudo-religion groove ;) on...
 
 
 

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

--Napoleon

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

--Napoleon



Sounds very familar.  ;)




Cat

  I think what you're saying is that Wicca could be classified as a non-mainstream religion or pseudoreligion along with Scientology or Nation of Islam or Rastafari Movement or Afrocantrism.  Schools-of-thought, political movements, really, more than bona fide "religions"...

  Borrowing from Wiki:

  Any religion lacking a guiding coherent theology is a pseudo-religion.
  Any religion entirely self referential is a pseudo-religion.
  Any religion whose only fruit is adherence to itself is a pseudo-religion groove ;) on...
 
 
 


One would say that describes the beginning of most major religions. :)

One would say that describes the beginning of most major religions. :)


  H-m-m-m, now that you mention it...

   I think what you're saying is that Wicca could be classified as a non-mainstream religion or pseudoreligion along with Scientology or Nation of Islam or Rastafari Movement or Afrocantrism.  Schools-of-thought, political movements, really, more than bona fide "religions"...

   Borrowing from Wiki:

   Any religion lacking a guiding coherent theology is a pseudo-religion.
   Any religion entirely self referential is a pseudo-religion.
   Any religion whose only fruit is adherence to itself is a pseudo-religion groove ;) on...


More or less.  Actually, I consider it a conglomeration of hundreds (if not thousands) of different quasi-religions.  One big difference between Wicca and the others you listed is that it is not unified in every way.

However, I do consider it much more of a religion then Scientology, Self-Realization Fellowship, and many others that are tossed into the "New Age" group.  But the lack of unification will likely prevent it from being "recognized" by a great many people (and Governments).

You find the most interesting things when watching Fox News.

I happened to catch a bit of the news a few minutes ago, and discovered that there are Government Issued tombstones that do have a Pentacle on them.  Back in September 2005 a soldier was killed in Afganistan, and he was burried in a state Veterans Cemetary in Nevada.

When his widow requested a pentacle on his grave site, the state did just that.  Because the cemetary is run by the state of Nevada and not the VA, they were able to do something that the VA does not allow.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Sep14/0,4670,WiccanSoldier,00.html

So that is another solution that people can do now, if they do not want to wait on the Federal Government.  Almost every state has their own Veteran Cemetary program, and they are not bound by the rules that the cemetaries that are controlled by the VA.