Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of proud heritage, or racism?

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=1924981&ch=49799&src=news

I wish I could view the clip, but the ad crashes my IE and Firefox won't open it for me.

Got another link by chance?

I hate looking at that ugly thing.  I see people around here plastering that damn thing to everything and anything they can stick it on and I hate it. 

The swastika was an Indian symbol meaning good luck.  In the hands of the Nazi Party, it came to stand for genocide and murder and hatred and bigotry and evil.  It doesn't matter anymore about what it USED to stand for.  It's what it became that sticks in people's memories and why it is illegal to this day to fly it in Germany. 

I see nothing positive when I see the Southern Cross.  I see that, I see racism, slavery, hatred, war.....nothing worth reminiscing about.    I live in the South, and I've yet to have one native Southerner tell me what "Southern heritage" is.  I know what happened here, I know what continues to happen here in some places.....is that something we should be glorifying? 

Can't stand it, for several reasons. I think it's totally unamerican and traitorous. Glorifying the slavery supporters and confederate treasonists is disgusting to me. It's all over the place down south, I know from the many times I've been there. It's a bad relic from the past that just won't go away. However this is America, and I think people of course have the right to display it if they want.

People have the right to display it (it's America.) Sometimes, I tend to think making a big deal over it just makes people more entrenched about it. However, as with Electrophile and Brian...it is un-American and the flag of the enemy, that stands against all that America and allegiance to America means. I think it's highly unpatriotic in spirit to display it. Yet, America is a free country! That's what makes America.

I wish I could view the clip, but the ad crashes my IE and Firefox won't open it for me.

Got another link by chance?



sorry...I checked for another link...but I can't seem to find one. :-\\

I hate looking at that ugly thing.  I see people around here plastering that damn thing to everything and anything they can stick it on and I hate it. 

The swastika was an Indian symbol meaning good luck.  In the hands of the Nazi Party, it came to stand for genocide and murder and hatred and bigotry and evil.  It doesn't matter anymore about what it USED to stand for.  It's what it became that sticks in people's memories and why it is illegal to this day to fly it in Germany. 

I see nothing positive when I see the Southern Cross.  I see that, I see racism, slavery, hatred, war.....nothing worth reminiscing about.    I live in the South, and I've yet to have one native Southerner tell me what "Southern heritage" is.  I know what happened here, I know what continues to happen here in some places.....is that something we should be glorifying? 



ya, we have a lot of "rednecks" in our area, who love to plaster them all over the back of their big trucks...I hate seeing them as well.

Hmmm, the Stars and Bars...

Well, there's all that stuff they taught in US History about how the Civil War wasn't fought just because of slavery, but because of the differing cultures of the North vs. the South and various socioeconomic factors...which is how some of the good ol' boys I've met explained their use of the Stars and Bars to me. 

I'm not as bothered by this as some people and whether the flag stays or goes, I think I'm indifferent...

Hmmm, the Stars and Bars...

Well, there's all that stuff they taught in US History about how the Civil War wasn't fought just because of slavery, but because of the differing cultures of the North vs. the South and various socioeconomic factors...which is how some of the good ol' boys I've met explained their use of the Stars and Bars to me. 

I'm not as bothered by this as some people and whether the flag stays or goes, I think I'm indifferent...


Me too.... and I was also gonna point out that our elderly population may very well remember grandparents, etc. who fought in the Civil War...if they are flying the confederate flag to honor Confederate soldiers, I don't see anything wrong with that.. it doesn't mean they condone slavery.

Me too.... and I was also gonna point out that our elderly population may very well remember grandparents, etc. who fought in the Civil War...if they are flying the confederate flag to honor Confederate soldiers, I don't see anything wrong with that.. it doesn't mean they condone slavery.



I agree with that. I honestly don't think that those individuals are flying it in means of representing racism...however, I seem to think differently whenever some big ol' country boy with a truck that sits atop huge tires flies by, and they have the huge confederate flag attached to the back of their window...that is irritating to me.

Hmmm, the Stars and Bars...

Well, there's all that stuff they taught in US History about how the Civil War wasn't fought just because of slavery, but because of the differing cultures of the North vs. the South and various socioeconomic factors...which is how some of the good ol' boys I've met explained their use of the Stars and Bars to me. 

I'm not as bothered by this as some people and whether the flag stays or goes, I think I'm indifferent...



The Civil War wasn't fought as much over slavery as it was over States' Rights.  I get that.  However, they were fighting for a state's right to enforce and allow slavery....which leads into the other reason the war started.  The South threatened to secede if Lincoln was elected, as he was anti-slavery, and they knew that if he was President, he'd take measures to end it.  Which he did.  And they seceded, South Carolina first.  So the war was essentially the South defending their right to own slaves.  That flag represents their "country" and what they viewed as the way things should be. 

Me too.... and I was also gonna point out that our elderly population may very well remember grandparents, etc. who fought in the Civil War...if they are flying the confederate flag to honor Confederate soldiers, I don't see anything wrong with that.. it doesn't mean they condone slavery.



No, but they are honoring soldiers who fought and died for the rights of their fellow Southerners to own slaves.  That's not any better.

The Civil War wasn't fought as much over slavery as it was over States' Rights.  I get that.  However, they were fighting for a state's right to enforce and allow slavery....which leads into the other reason the war started.  The South threatened to secede if Lincoln was elected, as he was anti-slavery, and they knew that if he was President, he'd take measures to end it.  Which he did.  And they seceded, South Carolina first.  So the war was essentially the South defending their right to own slaves.  That flag represents their "country" and what they viewed as the way things should be. 




Yeah, that's the way it played out, but Lincoln didn't start out to abolish slavery, just keeping the country in one piece.  So the issue of the Confederate flag is not so simple.  I'm sure historians could argue this case better than I but as long as the person brandishing the flag doesn't also wear white sheets for fun I personally don't see what the big deal is.  It is a flag, and the only reason it becomes more than a flag is because some people perceive it that way.  It is the same with the American flag...some people hold it in reverence and a symbol of patriotism while some people burn it for totally different reasons. 

State flags

Most states have already adopted non-Confederate flags in an effort to be more politically correct anyway.  You may notice that Florida and Alabama kept traces of the Confederate cross in their emblems though.

Yeah, that's the way it played out, but Lincoln didn't start out to abolish slavery, just keeping the country in one piece.  So the issue of the Confederate flag is not so simple.  I'm sure historians could argue this case better than I but as long as the person brandishing the flag doesn't also wear white sheets for fun I personally don't see what the big deal is.  It is a flag, and the only reason it becomes more than a flag is because some people perceive it that way.  It is the same with the American flag...some people hold it in reverence and a symbol of patriotism while some people burn it for totally different reasons. 

State flags

Most states have already adopted non-Confederate flags in an effort to be more politically correct anyway.  You may notice that Florida and Alabama kept traces of the Confederate cross in their emblems though.



Georgia recently went back to their older flag.  It was a concession made by the new Governor after the old one left.  There's no Stars and Bars on it, though....which annoyed people, but they can just get over it.

No, but they are honoring soldiers who fought and died for the rights of their fellow Southerners to own slaves.  That's not any better.


That may be true, but if it is their family, I can still understand that...  using my abortion example again, right now the nation is divided on it... in another 100 years it may be completely unfathomable to have an abortion... but i dont think our grandchildren will hold it against those who had one... times and values were alot different then...

I'm not too sure of how the military worked back then, but can only guess that even in those days when you were called to fight, you went, you didn't get to decide if you agreed with the leaders or not...

They do a lot of Civil War re-enactments in the South, I'm sure some of them have the North winning and some of them have the South winning...it seems more of a tradition than a symbol of hatred nowadays.

But what do I know, I'm just a carpetbagger ;D

I'm not too sure of how the military worked back then, but can only guess that even in those days when you were called to fight, you went, you didn't get to decide if you agreed with the leaders or not...



The North and South was split just like that.  Most of the Southern army were slave owners and the sons of slave owners.  You didn't see abolitionists fighting on the side of the pro-slavery crowd.  If you were in "border" states, that might be different.

I agree with that. I honestly don't think that those individuals are flying it in means of representing racism...however, I seem to think differently whenever some big ol' country boy with a truck that sits atop huge tires flies by, and they have the huge confederate flag attached to the back of their window...that is irritating to me.


Oh yeah, it would irritate me too, unless it was displayed on Veterans day or Memorial Day, etc... but then, alot of "freedom of expression" from all standpoints irritate me... so i'm not a good judge of it :D

It's not just the slavery issue like I said, it's the enemy flag. The secessionists committed treason and violated the constitution. Secession was ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court after the war, actually it was ruled that legally the states never left the Union because they were not able to unilaterally like that.

^ I'm pretty sure they didn't care back then or now ;)  The one that sticks in everyone's mind is slavery and racism because that was so deeply intertwined with the Confederacy, but like I said, social and economic differences were also a huge factor.  Secession was in the air way before the abolitionist movement was set up.

Not that I would ever display the Stars and Bars, mind you, but I don't begrudge people who do...like you said, it is a free country, which means that we have to somehow rise above the bigots and ignoramuses and let them spew their vitriol :P  But I don't think displaying that flag is as bad as people make it out to be.

Since I can't view the original article/news clip, I can't comment on that.

But, to answer Quirk's question, in most cases is neither. The Confederate flag is also known as the Rebel flag, and most of the people I've known to display it think of themselves as rebellious, nothing more, nothing less.

There are no doubt those who wish the South had won, and that display it as some sort of racial 'mark'. They're probably the same people who think their sisters are viable mates and have an IQ of 67.

Displaying the Confederate/Rebel flag in and of itself isn't offensive to me, but states (if any) that still have it as an official flag should think of something better to represent themselves.

Neither.

TREASON

As Ant pointed out, it's the Confederate Battle Flag, not the national flag of the short-lived Confederate States.

When American Southerners regard the Stars and Bars the way Germans today regard the Swastika, the U.S. will be a healthier place.

We have a lot of conservative politicians in this country who still have what Julian Bond called "a canine loyalty to the Confederacy."

I'm not into this right-wing fashion PC that mandates we all say nice stuff about the Confederacy.  Fog that sheet!
::)


Treason? TREASON?? Yes, the Confederacy is a major threat to national security. They have men, muskets, cannons, etc. Too bad that everyone living in reality realizes the Confederacy was crushed nearly 150 years ago. Even worse is that some think we still live in 1863.

If we were living in 1863, I can see where displaying the Confederate flag would be contrued as a sign of treason. But now? Come on...

I suppose displaying a skull and cross bones flag, Canandian, Mexican, Gay Pride flag, etc. would be considered "treason" too. After all, treason is:

"... betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.

The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

LOL!  Not current treason, you silly-billy, historical treason.  I'm nost suggesting we hang them Duke boys for treason!
:D


http://www.tomecek.com/jay/Hanging.gif

^^I remember that scene in the Dukes of Hazzard.  That was right after they saved Daisy from something.

I only ever really associate the flag with The Dukes of Hazzard

...it is un-American and the flag of the enemy, that stands against all that America and allegiance to America means. I think it's highly unpatriotic in spirit to display it. Yet, America is a free country! That's what makes America.

Huh?


http://www.tomecek.com/jay/Hanging.gif

It's just a farking flag, people. Jebus.
Treason? Don't get me started...

Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of proud heritage, or racism?

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=1924981&ch=49799&src=news


For some I suppose it could be either heritage or racism, but in the vast majority of cases I think it is simple childishness.

Now... all of that said... our society has gone WAAAAAAAAY overboard on all of this "ban the confederate flag" stuff.  If some 17-year-old wants to drive his General Lee bondo car to a school parking lot, why should the school district etc get all bent out of shape and want to ban the student.  Friggin' freedom of speech, I say.

Last time I read the constitution there was something called freedom of speech.  So if whites use the n-word in public, or blacks use the C-word, tough noogies I say.  Freedom of speech lets them say those things as long as those words are not being used to incite an imminent riot.  Now on private property I am free to say who can or cannot say what on my premises and that is as it should be too.

We live in a country where the authorities applaud and protect the burning of the American flag and condemn the even casual display of the conferderate flag.  One is defended as "free speech" and the other is defended as "racial sensitivity".  It is all a crock.

I only ever really associate the flag with The Dukes of Hazzard


But the Dukes loved black folk. 

The Civil War wasn't fought as much over slavery as it was over States' Rights.  I get that.  However, they were fighting for a state's right to enforce and allow slavery....which leads into the other reason the war started.  The South threatened to secede if Lincoln was elected, as he was anti-slavery, and they knew that if he was President, he'd take measures to end it.  Which he did.  And they seceded, South Carolina first.  So the war was essentially the South defending their right to own slaves.  That flag represents their "country" and what they viewed as the way things should be. 




This is exactly what comes to mind when I see the confederate flag.  I have debated the issue with several Southerners and not one of them has been able to convince me that 150 years of hatred and racism are not wrapped up in those bars and stars.  Saying it's about being a rebel or it's about state's rights is a crock and we all know it.

You are absolutely correct, Ash.
But they are allowed to display any colors they choose.
I am not a Southerner, a racist, or childish.
I am a rebel I guess, but their flag can fly.
It doesn't mean a damn thing any more...

Does the Apology thread ring a bell?

You are absolutely correct, Ash.
But they are allowed to display any colors they choose.
I am not a Southerner, a racist, or childish.
I am a rebel I guess, but their flag can fly.
It doesn't mean a damn thing any more...

Does the Apology thread ring a bell?




I know, I know, you're right.  And it's not like I'm going to go around tearing them off of flag poles.  Of course they have the right to fly them, and I will respect their freedom of speech.  I just wish they'd fess up and admit why they really hang them, or at least think it through. 

And I will use my freedom of speech to say that I think it sucks.  ;)

And I will use my freedom of speech to say that I think it sucks.  ;)


As you should!  :)

Random thought:

Some have brought up the part about how the Confederates committed treason by seceding from the Union.  Technically, the US of A committed mad treason when they rebelled against the Brits and formed this country, and the US flag is a symbol not only of liberty and justice but of that fight for independence from oppression and taxation without representation (now we have taxation WITH representation, HAHAHA!) blah de blah...only difference is, US of A won, South lost, so history can happily say that the South sucks for waving their flag.

Carry on.

I have no problem with the flying of the Confederate Flag.

Not only does it represent a period of history that we shouldn't forget any time soon, it also stands to honor the soldiers and civilians who laid down their life for something they believe in.
I don't really care what it was that they believed in specifically, the fact that they embodied the same spirit the revolutionary soldiers did say's more than their thoughts on any issue.

Wave On Flag!

I have no problem with the flying of the Confederate Flag.

Not only does it represent a period of history that we shouldn't forget any time soon, it also stands to honor the soldiers and civilians who laid down their life for something they believe in.
I don't really care what it was that they believed in specifically, the fact that they embodied the same spirit the revolutionary soldiers did say's more than their thoughts on any issue.

Wave On Flag!



So would you then say it would be okay for Germans to fly the Swastika?

So would you then say it would be okay for Germans to fly the Swastika?


It's not "okay" but they can do it anyway because we have a progressive society  :-\\

So would you then say it would be okay for Germans to fly the Swastika?


Well, no, because that's against the law in Germany. But if it wasn't. Sure.

People walk around wearing shirts with the hammer and sickle. More people have been killed in the name of communism than the nazi party ever killed.

Well, no, because that's against the law in Germany. But if it wasn't. Sure.

People walk around wearing shirts with the hammer and sickle. More people have been killed in the name of communism than the nazi party ever killed.


Yeah, and then there are all those Che shirts too!

Yeah, and then there are all those Che shirts too!


Exactly - Celebrating a mercenary.

Once again, double standards from the left.

If I wore a t-shirt with Josef Mengele on it, I'd probably be arrested. (Although I doubt 90% of the population could pick out Mengele from a lineup.)

I think if someone wants to fly it, they should be allowed to.  I'd bet that quite a few of the people who fly it have no clue what it symbolizes and just think it's "cool."

AFA it being in honor of the ancestors who fought for the South in the Civil war, it doesn't matter WHY they were fighting or whether or not they "agreed" with it.  Especially with the current situation our military is in....I'm sure there are plenty of soldiers in the Middle East right now who don't "agree" with the reason they're there, but they signed up to serve our country and are holding true to that promise.  Like it or not, the "stars and bars" is an important symbol in our history.....


My bro Pete's got a confederate flag airbrushed on his guitar. It just looks sweet. Dude's from Wales.. he wouldn't know the south if it jumped up and bit him on the ass.  ;D

Perspective:

Soviet Union: 1917--1991
Red China: 1949--

Nazi Germany: 1933--1945

So imagine the death toll if Nazi Germany had been able to carry on as it was for 60 or 75 years rather than a mere 12!
:o

My ancestors fought in the American Revolution.  Ethan Allen wasn't just a furniture store y'know!  Same spirit, I don't think so!  The American Revolution was fought on behalf of a few...super-rich white male land-owners....who...uh...who didn't want to pay....taxes...

Nah, scratch that!
;D

Nonetheless, here's another key difference.  Pre-revoluton America was made up of imperial colonies.  The Confederacy seceded from the United States of America.  What if West Anglia tried to secede from Britain?


West Anglia? What a bizare idea. Countys don't have any real power. There are county councils that can allocate funds and such like, but there's no policy decision, it's a totally different thing to states rights.
Now, if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were to secede I'd be perfectly happy. I'd rather not have a load of taffs, feenians and kilt-nastys polluting the country.

I suppose no one wants to hear the opinion of A Civil War buff, but here goes.  Most of the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy were too poor to own slaves.  So what were they fighting for?  Take the Confederate flag down some dirt poor Confederate soldier will be rolling over in his grave.  Seeing the Confederate flag does not bother me a bit because of this fact.

I suppose no one wants to hear the opinion of A Civil War buff, but here goes.  Most of the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy were too poor to own slaves.  So what were they fighting for?  Take the Confederate flag down some dirt poor Confederate soldier will be rolling over in his grave.  Seeing the Confederate flag does not bother me a bit because of this fact.



My father is a Civil War buff too, so I grew up learning a lot about the war, the people involved in the war, the reasons for the war....so I know that your average Confederate soldier didn't own slaves.  The richer men who could avoid service did.  However, that doesn't excuse the reason they were fighting, and it doesn't excuse what the flag stands for.  As was pointed out earlier, this wasn't like the Revolutionary War and the South was rebelling against tyrannical imperial rule.  This was states in the USA taking it upon themselves to leave the USA and attack their fellow states and countrymen because they didn't like a) who was President and b) what he might do, policy-wise. 


Just because they might not have personally owned slaves, doesn't mean they weren't fighting for the right for OTHERS to own them.