Something like that.  Anyway, there's not much point to it, but I figured that it would be rightly superstitious, and therefore patriotic, if I was to burn this, post #1492, on having nothing to say.  It occurred to me only awhile back (on another topic...) that I should disappear long enough to post it on December 5th, but that would be outright stupid...

  But then it hit me that the link below is the perfect reflection on the above reflection, and I thus place this feeble topic here, in P&R...

  But, it's true that I have no real point today.  Comments, of course, are not discouraged...

  I can give you a topic, oh, say, "Patriotism: what does it get you and what does it cost, as an individual or society?"

  http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/patriotism.html

  P.S. - Read the first verse of The Star-Spangled Banner, you know, the part everyone in this country is expected to know..? groove ;) on...

I don't think I would die or kill for my Country.  Yes, I vote  . . . let's just say my level of Patriotism was higher back in the fifth grade. ::)

I don't think I would die or kill for my Country.  Yes, I vote  . . . let's just say my level of Patriotism was higher back in the fifth grade. ::)


  See what talk radio will do for ya..?  :P

  I'll bet by the time you were in the tenth grade you were eating granola and wearing Birkenstocks...

  And when President Jenna Bush tries to invade France, we'll be carrying a picket signs with the rest of 'em...

Karma +1 for linking to Emma Goldman.  

"Is America the greatest country God ever gave man?  Yes or no."

--Sean Hannity

I cringe every time these clowns spout off about America beign the greatest country in the history of the world.  That is not love of country.  That is a battlecry.  If you live in Britain, Brazil, Thailand, or Mongolia, what are you supposed to think when you hear Americans saying "America is the greatest country in the world!"  OK, then what does that make the rest of us?

Lewis Black's take on American patriotism: "What if you worked with a guy who came in every day saying, 'I'm number one, I'm the best, I'm the greatest'?  You'd think he was a total dick and by the end of the week, you'd want to kill him!"

You speak of "superstition," which brings me to religion, which brings me to the Christian Right.  It is no coincidence that so many of these "super-patriots" are also religious zealots.

Zealots don't engage in such inner dialog as I have described above.  They don't question the rectitude of what their church or their government tells them to believe.  Humility is bound to spirituality, but humility is anathema to zealotry.  This is an extreeeeemely dangerous mentality because it contains the seeds of fascism.

If I describe myself as a "patriot," the right-wingers immediately shoot me down because I criticize the government of my country and the values my country is promoting.  The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights protects free speech and first and foremost political speech.  

Of course, the same people who will rip on me from criticizing the government are the same people who themselves say the government is evil and that "government" doesn't work.  They've been spouting this crap since the dawn of Reagan.  What they really mean is: "Get with the program.  Fall in line and obey our fearless leader, George W. Bush."  Fascism?  Heck, we're already home, we just haven't turned on the lights yet!

As Al Franken put it, "Liberals love their country like adults love one another.  Conservatives love their country like a three-year-old loves his mommy and daddy."
::)

   See what talk radio will do for ya..?  :P

   I'll bet by the time you were in the tenth grade you were eating granola and wearing Birkenstocks...

   And when President Jenna Bush tries to invade France, we'll be carrying a picket signs with the rest of 'em...

Keep your child's patriotism pure.  Play him three hours of Rush Limbaugh a day.  That way he'll never grow out of the fifth grade!
:D

  See what talk radio will do for ya..?  :P

  I'll bet by the time you were in the tenth grade you were eating granola and wearing Birkenstocks...

  And when President Jenna Bush tries to invade France, we'll be carrying a picket signs with the rest of 'em...


Actually in tenth grade I was still under "Conservative Republican" parental control.  I can't stand granola, and I prefer sneakers.

If we're talking another Bushie President, Jeb before Jenna. :P 

Die or kill

i would die or kill for my country, although i'd rather not. i don't believe in unquestioning obedience to the government, so there are definitely some causes i'd give my life for and others i would not. i think that may end up being a bad mindset for a soldier, i dunno. i don't think i'd make a very good one. i'd get all scared and freaked out and stuff. evidently, though, that happens to just about everybody who goes to war so... combat = very bad for you. even if you aren't hurt physically.

i would die or kill for my country, although i'd rather not. i don't believe in unquestioning obedience to the government, so there are definitely some causes i'd give my life for and others i would not. i think that may end up being a bad mindset for a soldier, i dunno. i don't think i'd make a very good one. i'd get all scared and freaked out and stuff. evidently, though, that happens to just about everybody who goes to war so... combat = very bad for you. even if you aren't hurt physically.

I might die for my country if doing so could save it from the Bush family!
:o

I might die for my country if doing so could save it from the Bush family!
:o
that would actually be a good cause, yeah. :-X

I have two countries what am I supposed to do?

Seriously, it's retarded. Am I supposed to feel some sort of moral obligation toward one nation over the other? I'm a citizen of both (Three soon  ;)) so what, does that mean I can't be as much of a patriot as somebody else? The whole concept is flawed.

What would I do? All depends on circumstance. If a foreign nation were invading, would I get a gun and start dropping suckas like it ain't no thing.. hell yeah I would. Am I willing to kill against an imaginary enemy like the war on verbs says I should? No.
Die for my country? Not unless it was absolutely necessary, I'd do everything I could to avoid it.. I'd do some incredibly dishonorable and disgusting things, my urge to continue existence is far higher than my belief in the inherent superiority of the United States of America.

Anyway, what is my country? I despise the majority of people in this country, I really do.. there are so many groups here that I despise and would love to see dead. Religious Zealots, Welfare bums, Corporate overlords, Lawyers.... theoretically these people are all part of my country, but I'd rather kill them.. than say.. some Chinese guy that I've never met, who's never done anything that's bothered me. Hell, I'd be more inclined to wage war on the Southern Baptist Church Organizations before going hand to hand with the Chinese.

Before one can say what they'd do for their country, one must understand what their country is. Some land? That's not my country, I don't own it.. I can't see all of it, I can't go on all of it and after I'm gone, it'll still be there.. hell, when the Government falls it'll still be there, it's nobody's country. Are the people the country? Not really, not whilst we're divided. Is the Government the country? Not when it represents the minority of citizens.

Ask not what you can do for your country.. ask what your country will ever do for you.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

-- Gen. George S. Patton

Well, if a principality is ruled by a prince, a kingdom by a king... then no wonder your country is run by a... Bush

But seriously, I do have a problem with the thought of killing/dying "for ones country" - mainly because it ain't the country that decides whether to kill/die.  It's always some (usually political) representative of the country who decides that someone else needs to perform the act.  Under the right (well, they'd be pretty "wrong") conditions, I guess I would be prepared to... but the reason would have to be pretty damn overwhelming, with all other options gone.  And it would not be for the abstract "country", it would be for my family, my friends and the people.. not an abstract historical quirk of fate that happens to define itself as a country.

Seriously, it's retarded. Am I supposed to feel some sort of moral obligation toward one nation over the other? I'm a citizen of both (Three soon  ;)) three? you're adding a third?

three? you're adding a third?


Canada dude, I qualify for it.

I'm getting me a Canadian Health Card!

dag, that's a lot of countries to have to kill and die for. it's gonna be interesting to see what you do when the amero-british canadian war breaks out.

It is funny because I used to wear a uniform that said that I was willing to pick up arms and even die for my country. Now, I am pretty much a pacifist. Does that mean that I am any less patriotic than I used to be? I don't think so. To me, being a patriot means you are willing to make your country the best it can be. IMO, that does not mean killing people in some foreign land. It means voting for the RIGHT people (not some incompetent sch muck-and you know who I am referring to), to write to your congressperson and senators about issues, to write letters to the editor, to protest if necessary, etc. etc.


FYI: When I typed in sch muck, the auto censor came out Chuck.  :D ;D ;D ;D  (No offense to you Chucky.)



Cat

Patriotism is different for someone who lives abroad,i wouldn't die or kill for my country,but i consider myself patriotic,being patriotic for me is caring about what's going on in your homeland,and getting angry and ashamed of your government when they do wrong,and want things to change for the better.

Being patriotic is getting goose bumps when you hear your national hymn and thinking that it's the most beautiful song in the whole world,even if you never get all the words right and you sing off key :-[,it's being ecstatic because your team won a football match,and telling people off when they think your language is spanish :P

Being patriotic it's being proud when people come to you and ask you "are you brazilian?",even when you'd be better off if they thought you were a local,is having a great talk with a random person on the subway only because she came from the same place as you,it's missing home and how life is there,even if it was full of hardships and you were never really happy when you were there.

Patriotism is senseless,childish,it's the love for your country that you really can't explain, but it's not nationalism,it's not thinking you're better because you were born in a certain place,or that your way of life is the right one for everyone else,or that you have to be an enemy to another nation just because your government says you are >:(

Patriotism is different for someone who lives abroad,i wouldn't die or kill for my country,but i consider myself patriotic,being patriotic for me is caring about what's going on in your homeland,and getting angry and ashamed of your government when they do wrong,and want things to change for the better.

Being patriotic is getting goose bumps when you hear your national hymn and thinking that it's the most beautiful song in the whole world,even if you never get all the words right and you sing off key :-[,it's being ecstatic because your team won a football match,and telling people off when they think your language is spanish :P

Being patriotic it's being proud when people come to you and ask you "are you brazilian?",even when you'd be better off if they thought you were a local,is having a great talk with a random person on the subway only because she came from the same place as you,it's missing home and how life is there,even if it was full of hardships and you were never really happy when you were there.

Patriotism is senseless,childish,it's the love for your country that you really can't explain, but it's not nationalism,it's not thinking you're better because you were born in a certain place,or that your way of life is the right one for everyone else,or that you have to be an enemy to another nation just because your government says you are >:(



Exactly, that is what I was trying to say. And one more thing I forgot to add is that patriotism is NOT following blindly what the government is doing if you think it is wrong.



Cat

I have two countries what am I supposed to do?

Seriously, it's retarded. Am I supposed to feel some sort of moral obligation toward one nation over the other? I'm a citizen of both (Three soon  ;)) so what, does that mean I can't be as much of a patriot as somebody else? The whole concept is flawed.

What would I do? All depends on circumstance. If a foreign nation were invading, would I get a gun and start dropping suckas like it ain't no thing.. hell yeah I would. Am I willing to kill against an imaginary enemy like the war on verbs says I should? No.
Die for my country? Not unless it was absolutely necessary, I'd do everything I could to avoid it.. I'd do some incredibly dishonorable and disgusting things, my urge to continue existence is far higher than my belief in the inherent superiority of the United States of America.

Anyway, what is my country? I despise the majority of people in this country, I really do.. there are so many groups here that I despise and would love to see dead. Religious Zealots, Welfare bums, Corporate overlords, Lawyers.... theoretically these people are all part of my country, but I'd rather kill them.. than say.. some Chinese guy that I've never met, who's never done anything that's bothered me. Hell, I'd be more inclined to wage war on the Southern Baptist Church Organizations before going hand to hand with the Chinese.

Before one can say what they'd do for their country, one must understand what their country is. Some land? That's not my country, I don't own it.. I can't see all of it, I can't go on all of it and after I'm gone, it'll still be there.. hell, when the Government falls it'll still be there, it's nobody's country. Are the people the country? Not really, not whilst we're divided. Is the Government the country? Not when it represents the minority of citizens.

Ask not what you can do for your country.. ask what your country will ever do for you.

There are fewer "welfare bums" than there have been two generation, but not fewer poor people.  Who shoved these "welfare bums" off the welfare rolls?  All those other groups you hate.  And that includes religious zealots.  The Christian Right's version f Christianity (driven by Southern Baptists) is not even religion.  It is a stalking horse for big business, the authoritarian state, and meddlesome, belligerent foreign policy.  Don't let any of those clowns talk to you about Christ.
::)

If I love my country, but the state hates me.

Karma +1 for linking to Emma Goldman.  



  Both Ms. Goldman and I agree heartily...


Well, if a principality is ruled by a prince, a kingdom by a king... then no wonder your country is run by a... Bush

But seriously, I do have a problem with the thought of killing/dying "for ones country" - mainly because it ain't the country that decides whether to kill/die.  It's always some (usually political) representative of the country who decides that someone else needs to perform the act.  Under the right (well, they'd be pretty "wrong") conditions, I guess I would be prepared to... but the reason would have to be pretty damn overwhelming, with all other options gone.  And it would not be for the abstract "country", it would be for my family, my friends and the people.. not an abstract historical quirk of fate that happens to define itself as a country.


  It's all about borders isn't it?  Within these borders dwell groups.  Grouping is a human response to exterior threats.  We hope our tribe is powerful enough to turn aside an attack from another tribe.  We gain courage by puffing out our chests and dancing around the fire with our fellow tribal warriors.  We wear the symbols of our tribe with the pride that comes from belonging to a group.  There is comfort in belonging to something larger than ourselves; a powerful country, a religion, a bowling club...



i would die or kill for my country, although i'd rather not. i don't believe in unquestioning obedience to the government, so there are definitely some causes i'd give my life for and others i would not. i think that may end up being a bad mindset for a soldier, i dunno. i don't think i'd make a very good one. i'd get all scared and freaked out and stuff. evidently, though, that happens to just about everybody who goes to war so... combat = very bad for you. even if you aren't hurt physically.
 

  None of this means I won't resist an invader, domestic or foreign, but it does seem that something about patriotism involves warfare, the purpose of which is killing and dying...

  "My country, right or wrong", the saying goes.  When right to keep 'right', when 'wrong' to make 'right'."  What this means to me is that if I see something wrong with my country, it is my duty to do everything in my power to set it right.  It really isn't the country I'd be patriotic about.  After all, it's just a chunk of dirt that we walk on.  It isn't the nation, the people.  I don't know most of them, so I can't declare any devotion to them except as fellow human beings.  Any patriotism is for the ideals of this country; that we are equal, that we should be free to choose our own fates, and that we each have but one responsibility and that is the safeguarding of that freedom for ourselves, for any who also seek it, and for the generations to come...

  What would I NOT do for my country?  Abandon it's ideals...

  I'd rather my neighbors were good citizens more than good patriots groove ;) on...

   What would I NOT do for my country?  Abandon it's ideals...



Absolutely.  What are our ideals?  Ah, open to interpretation.
Thom Hartmann is taking the "Founding Fathers" back from the Heritage Foundation and returning to the Left.
For a generation or more the Left, especially the far left, has dismissed our Founders as a bunch of save-holding white supremecist patriarchical male chauvist rich dudes.  No amount of denouncing of the Founding Fathers" (or the "Framers" to be less patriarchical  ;) ) can change history.  What Hartmann does is revisit the speeches and writings of Jefferson, Madison, Adams, Washington, Tom Pain, and so forth, and, using their own words, re-orients the discussion to one of social justice, human rights, economic equality, and freedom from corporate tyrrany. 

Thom Hartmann is brilliant.  Somebody has finally recognized that if the Left dismisses the foundations of this country the Right will claim our Founders and our founding documents for their own fascistic idealogy.

dag, that's a lot of countries to have to kill and die for. it's gonna be interesting to see what you do when the amero-british canadian war breaks out.


Then I'll just wander off to Australia, they'll take me as well.  ;D


There are fewer "welfare bums" than there have been two generation, but not fewer poor people.  Who shoved these "welfare bums" off the welfare rolls?  All those other groups you hate.  And that includes religious zealots.  The Christian Right's version f Christianity (driven by Southern Baptists) is not even religion.  It is a stalking horse for big business, the authoritarian state, and meddlesome, belligerent foreign policy.  Don't let any of those clowns talk to you about Christ.
::)

If I love my country, but the state hates me.


Regardless of how many there are, my distaste for them remains the same - You understand what welfare bums are, notice.. I didn't say welfare recipients  ;)

Regardless of how many there are, my distaste for them remains the same - You understand what welfare bums are, notice.. I didn't say welfare recipients  ;)

I find people who use epithets such as "welfare bums" or "welfare queens" have contempt for all recipients.  If you make an honest distinction, you would be a first.

I find people who use epithets such as "welfare bums" or "welfare queens" have contempt for all recipients.  If you make an honest distinction, you would be a first.


Of course there is a distinction.

There are those who receive welfare because they can't find jobs that allow them to earn enough to support them and their families.. then there are those who receive welfare because it's a convenient alternative to working.

Of course there is a distinction.

There are those who receive welfare because they can't find jobs that allow them to earn enough to support them and their families.. then there are those who receive welfare because it's a convenient alternative to working.
can anyone actually LIVE on welfare? i suppose it's possible but it would be so deprived and you'd have to spend so much energy scrounging and economizing i can't imagine it wouldn't be much harder work than actually working.

can anyone actually LIVE on welfare? i suppose it's possible but it would be so deprived and you'd have to spend so much energy scrounging and economizing i can't imagine it wouldn't be much harder work than actually working.


I know in the UK it's not that difficult to get a council flat (apartment) which is paid for.. for you.. and then claim a check each week that is supposed to cover food, bills etc. All it takes is a little cash in hand work and all of a sudden you have a satellite dish.

I went to school with guys who's parents had never done a days 'honest' work in their lives.. and they had all the cool clothes, satellite dishes.. stuff like that. But never a car, cus the Government could keep track of the taxes and such like and inquire as to how it was being paid for.

I realize it's slightly different in the U.S, but that's the basic concept I'm coming after.

well, i know bianca's been living high off the hog on unemployment for like, months. but yeah, in the US it doesn't really work that way.

I know in the UK it's not that difficult to get a council flat (apartment) which is paid for.. for you.. and then claim a check each week that is supposed to cover food, bills etc. All it takes is a little cash in hand work and all of a sudden you have a satellite dish.

I went to school with guys who's parents had never done a days 'honest' work in their lives.. and they had all the cool clothes, satellite dishes.. stuff like that. But never a car, cus the Government could keep track of the taxes and such like and inquire as to how it was being paid for.

I realize it's slightly different in the U.S, but that's the basic concept I'm coming after.


Davey,you're not talking about people who live out of welfare,are you? You're talking about welfare abusers!You know? People who take welfare but keep a job or some kind of paid work on the side.

I know a lot of people who do that here,and the state knows about it they don't really expect someone to survive with just that,so they just close their eyes.

Hell, back home everyone has 2 jobs one they declare,another one they keep "hush hush",in countries like mine,unfortunately,is the only way to make a living.There's a shadow economy where rules and taxes don't apply,of course the workers are just being part of something that's way bigger than them,because this parallel economy only exists because the state is not interested in taking action against it. That said,i'm a firm believer in "the state is a thief",so it doesn't really shocks me when people abuse it,they always say "oh you're stealing from the people who really need it",when in fact what we should denounce is the outrageous high payments of those in power.

I would die for a cause if this country left its way.  Freedom is what drives this country.  I would fight to uphold what the fore fathers were trying to create in America.

I served my country in the military but never really cared to die for it. 

Its not America that is great, its freedom.  When our rights our completely taken away from us, well, then we have a sheeshty country. 

well, i know bianca's been living high off the hog on unemployment for like, months. but yeah, in the US it doesn't really work that way.


Yeah, but she's allowed to.


Davey,you're not talking about people who live out of welfare,are you? You're talking about welfare abusers!You know? People who take welfare but keep a job or some kind of paid work on the side.

I know a lot of people who do that here,and the state knows about it they don't really expect someone to survive with just that,so they just close their eyes.

Hell, back home everyone has 2 jobs one they declare,another one they keep "hush hush",in countries like mine,unfortunately,is the only way to make a living.There's a shadow economy where rules and taxes don't apply,of course the workers are just being part of something that's way bigger than them,because this parallel economy only exists because the state is not interested in taking action against it. That said,i'm a firm believer in "the state is a thief",so it doesn't really shocks me when people abuse it,they always say "oh you're stealing from the people who really need it",when in fact what we should denounce is the outrageous high payments of those in power.


Of course the state is a thief, if it were up to me the state would ensure it's citizens didn't die and then the rest would be up to the individual, the state is supposed to protect us in times of war, so the same should apply during peace time. However, those that leach from the state are a burden.

Ya know, I don't have a major issue with somebody playing the system a bit, Hell, I have.. everyone has and does and will, what I object to is people who have no intention of ever contributing to society yet are more than happy to take from it.

can anyone actually LIVE on welfare? i suppose it's possible but it would be so deprived and you'd have to spend so much energy scrounging and economizing i can't imagine it wouldn't be much harder work than actually working.

First of all, there's no such thing as welfare anymore.  Bill Clinton signed that away in 1996.  Today it's known as "transitional assistance."  It's a smack in the face.  I would rather freeze to death with dignity if it came down to that. 
My sister was on welfare briefly after my brother-in-law,the scumbag, abandoned her and my niece.
"Transitional Assistance" has a nice, positive ring to it, doesn't it?  Yes.  But it ends there.  They treat you like you're an enemy of the state.  That's just the way they talk to you at the office (everybody I know who ever received welfare says this).  You're supposed to "transition" from dependence to independence, right?  As soon as you get a job, any job, they slash your benefits, even if you're working part-time for minimum wage.  The only thing that "Transitional Assistance" allows you to "transition" to is from indigence to indigence.  My sister did not have much of a resume, but she did have a college education and some marketable skills, so she managed to find enough work to squeak by.  Others are not so fortunate.  Then she met the man who became her second husband, and he makes a decent living, so the crisis was averted. 

In a nutshell, no you cannot live off of "Transitional Assistance."  That program only exists because concentration camps are not yet palatable to the American public.  Of course, prisons are becoming a surrogate.

Of course there is a distinction.

There are those who receive welfare because they can't find jobs that allow them to earn enough to support them and their families.. then there are those who receive welfare because it's a convenient alternative to working.


There was a thread going on here a few months back and I was accused of not seeing the difference either in seeing the difference in 2nd and 3rd generation welfare bums and those that are merely on it for the purposes of getting by until a decent job comes along.

I know in NYS the "recepients" are even given an entertainment allowance, because even those poor downtrodden 2nd and 3rd generation scum deserve a night out on the town, right??  Just like the way a LOT of the 2nd and 3rd genners have a habit of going to Bingo and other gambling venues, and when they win they don't have to claim their winnings "bacause somebody gave them the money they won with, it wasn't welfare money"...yeah, right.....

What gets me are the people who for some unknown reason can't, or won't distinguish between the 2nd and 3rd genners and the ones who truly have reason to be on welfare, in their minds they all deserve "equal" treatment and respect...gimme a break...

There was a thread going on here a few months back and I was accused of not seeing the difference either in seeing the difference in 2nd and 3rd generation welfare bums and those that are merely on it for the purposes of getting by until a decent job comes along.

I know in NYS the "recepients" are even given an entertainment allowance, because even those poor downtrodden 2nd and 3rd generation scum deserve a night out on the town, right??  Just like the way a LOT of the 2nd and 3rd genners have a habit of going to Bingo and other gambling venues, and when they win they don't have to claim their winnings "bacause somebody gave them the money they won with, it wasn't welfare money"...yeah, right.....

What gets me are the people who for some unknown reason can't, or won't distinguish between the 2nd and 3rd genners and the ones who truly have reason to be on welfare, in their minds they all deserve "equal" treatment and respect...gimme a break...


And what gets me is just that.

There was a thread going on here a few months back and I was accused of not seeing the difference either in seeing the difference in 2nd and 3rd generation welfare bums and those that are merely on it for the purposes of getting by until a decent job comes along.

I know in NYS the "recepients" are even given an entertainment allowance, because even those poor downtrodden 2nd and 3rd generation scum deserve a night out on the town, right??  Just like the way a LOT of the 2nd and 3rd genners have a habit of going to Bingo and other gambling venues, and when they win they don't have to claim their winnings "bacause somebody gave them the money they won with, it wasn't welfare money"...yeah, right.....

What gets me are the people who for some unknown reason can't, or won't distinguish between the 2nd and 3rd genners and the ones who truly have reason to be on welfare, in their minds they all deserve "equal" treatment and respect...gimme a break...

"Welfare reform" in the 1990s put an end to multigenerational welfare dependency.  Did you forget that?  Or do you choose to grind you teeth to the gums over defunct policies.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/madgo.gif

You know who "gets me"?  Dittoheads.  The type of people who want for nothing but are still unsatisfied with life, so they take their rage out on the most vulnerable members of our society.  It's a bully mentality and bullying is akin to cowardice.

"Welfare reform" in the 1990s put an end to multigenerational welfare dependency.  Did you forget that?  Or do you choose to grind you teeth to the gums over defunct policies.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/madgo.gif

You know who "gets me"?  Dittoheads.  The type of people who want for nothing but are still unsatisfied with life, so they take their rage out on the most vulnerable members of our society.  It's a bully mentality and bullying is akin to cowardice.


Really??  It was done away with back in the 90's??  Strange, the wife of a good friend of mine can recite to you countless cases of "multi genners" still managing to draw full bennies..I guess she'd know, seeing as how she's worked for that system for 20 years and is planning on retiring this fall.

Perhaps some people ought to listen to the real cases that are out there, all you have to do is research beyond the blabberings of what we'd all be led to believe as gospel....

You know who "gets me"?  Dittoheads.  The type of people who want for nothing but are still unsatisfied with life, so they take their rage out on the most vulnerable members of our society.  It's a bully mentality and bullying is akin to cowardice.


Theres a huge difference on those "vulnerable members" of our society who are there for reasons beyond their control and those that choose to stay down there and not attempt to try and make their lives productive and better.  I have no pity for the latter, and no amount of drivel from any side of the arguement is going to make me feel differently.

I've worked my azz off to get where I am today, and have sacrificed many things in order to get here.  I COULD have not worked the day it was too hot/humid, but went anyway.  I COULD have complained my back was sore and sat on the couch, but didn't...I COULD have whined  about everything and taken a "woe is me" posture, but choose not to..and in THAT lies the difference....

Really??  It was done away with back in the 90's??  Strange, the wife of a good friend of mine can recite to you countless cases of "multi genners" still managing to draw full bennies..I guess she'd know, seeing as how she's worked for that system for 20 years and is planning on retiring this fall.

Perhaps some people ought to listen to the real cases that are out there, all you have to do is research beyond the blabberings of what we'd all be led to believe as gospel....

So?  Even if there are recipients playing the system it's not without complicity of the state.  "Welfare reform" did not do a thing for systemic poverty, it merely legislated away one method of long-term relief.  I would have been gung-ho for "welfare reform" if this country was serious about offering a living wage job to anybody who wanted one.  No, I don't mean scraping bubblegum of the sidewalk for $2.00 an hour.  

Our dysfunctional welfare state did create severe sociological problems.  Most severe is the psychology of despair.  I do not believe anybody was happy "not working."  We are social creatures.  People deep down want to work and want to "contribute to society."  However, in order to raise their expectations of themselves, we must reward hard work.  Working at McDonald's is "hard work."  It's much more strenuous than the day of a business executive.  But if you work at Mickey-D's and still can't pay your own way, that's not much of a reward.  If you sell drugs, you can make more cash in an afternoon than you could in a whole weak at one of those McJobs.  

The "Horatio Alger" story is useless in social policy.  There are a few individuals who, for whatever reason, are able to fight their way out of the most desperate circumstances.  However, you cannot set social policy by the exception to the rule and the inspiring personal narrative.  

Recipients started getting dropped from the welfare rolls and politicians started boasting about it.  Meanwhile, food pantries emptied before noon and homeless shelters overflowed every night.  Our media blacked these stories out.  

So, if the state and the people are still going about it in the old way, it's not just a problem for the recipient.  It reflects on the abject failure "welfare reform" is.

I'm sorry to say, but if you take families who have not earned a living for three generations and throw them into the "free market," sink or swim, millions will sink and when they do, they will turn to crime.  Crime does not pay and crime does not save the taxpayers money either.  It costs more to keep a man in jail than it does to send him to college.  You might say, "Oh, what do you want, the state to hold their hands and just give them jobs?"  Might be necessary.  Look, if you read at a 4th grade level and have no familial support and no financial resources, you will need patient, persistent vocational training.

This of course requires the state to say "We are going to tell business they have to provide living wage jobs for the asking if they want to do business in this country."  That is not going to happen, so the "welfare reform" scheme is doomed.

Tough love?  There's a place for that when there is love.  Otherwise, it's just tough sh*t.
::)

Oh, education.  Of course.  People are dumb because of the "teachers unions" so let's defund the public schools.  That's the right-wing mentality and it is stupid beyond belief.  


Theres a huge difference on those "vulnerable members" of our society who are there for reasons beyond their control and those that choose to stay down there and not attempt to try and make their lives productive and better.  I have no pity for the latter, and no amount of drivel from any side of the arguement is going to make me feel differently.
Deep poverty creates destruction of chances starting in childhood, quite often out of the person's control.  I don't have "pity" for a woman in subsidized housing who has four kids with three different fathers and is a grandmother at the age of 31.  I do understand how and why that scenario occurs, and I'm not about to spit on that woman.  When the Right says "accountability" and "personal responsibility" they mean "blame" and nothing else.

I've worked my azz off to get where I am today, and have sacrificed many things in order to get here.  I COULD have not worked the day it was too hot/humid, but went anyway.  I COULD have complained my back was sore and sat on the couch, but didn't...I COULD have whined  about everything and taken a "woe is me" posture, but choose not to..and in THAT lies the difference....

It's also a fallacy that the unemployed "do nothing."  Ask any woman who lived in a housing project what she did on a typical day and you'll find she spent hours and hours trying to get the bare necessities for her children and herself.  Yeah, you work hard and provide an important service.  It does not follow that those who did not have the same advantages and opportunities as you are just "lazy."

And please don't try to tell me you started your business with $50.00.  Nobody can start a business with $50.00!
:D

So?  Even if there are recipients playing the system it's not without complicity of the state.  "Welfare reform" did not do a thing for systemic poverty, it merely legislated away one method of long-term relief.  I would have been gung-ho for "welfare reform" if this country was serious about offering a living wage job to anybody who wanted one.  No, I don't mean scraping bubblegum of the sidewalk for $2.00 an hour. 




Oh, education.  Of course.  People are dumb because of the "teachers unions" so let's defund the public schools.  That's the right-wing mentality and it is stupid beyond belief. 


Max..you made a statement earlier about welfare reform being implemented the 2nd and 3rd genners not existing anymore, then you turn around after being presented with something more factual and say "even if"...sounds like an acknowledgement and agreement with somebody else's view point and a direct slamming of your own previous statement...

Teachers Unions??  How the hell do you bring teachers unions into the picture anyway??

As far as comments about vocational training, etc you made..as far as I know(and correct me if I'm wrong) but a criteria for getting into vocational school as a kid in school was NOT having to not be on welfare.  I don't seem to recall that criteria listed on any of the forms I filled out.  I guess it might be more a question of whether or not somebody made the decision to attend and learn a trade versus sitting around in extra study halls and filling in the day in that manner, eh??

Where has anybody mentioned (except you) to defund public schools anyway??  Did I ever mention or imply that??

And please don't try to tell me you started your business with $50.00.  Nobody can start a business with $50.00!
:D


My Old man borrowed 200 Pounds.. back in '84 and started his business which is still running today. That was the money to purchase scaffold, everything else he did grafting.

Tough love?  There's a place for that when there is love.  Otherwise, it's just tough sh*t.
::)

That one's worth a karma hit, if ever anything was...

One of the problems I always seem to see in this type of debate is the side closer to the right wing points to the extreme 0.001% of people whose only mental activity is how to screw the most out of the system, just like their ma and grandma before 'em; and at the other extreme the motivated-but-dead-unlucky types who try, really try yet never make it out of the poverty trap; neither stereotype is particularly representative of the majority... most people would rather work than not, but aren't going to bust themselves to make someone else rich by working sub-poverty wages (he says, making another generalization based on no firm statistics)

The success stories (like Davey's old man) have to have a smidgeon of luck - for example, if someone else had tried the same thing six months later, it may well have failed 'cause ol' Mr Thrashmister's business was doing too well.


My Old man borrowed 200 Pounds.. back in '84 and started his business which is still running today. That was the money to purchase scaffold, everything else he did grafting.

He's a hangman?

And please don't try to tell me you started your business with $50.00.  Nobody can start a business with $50.00!
:D


Actually Max...if you have 14 dollars for a hawk, and buy three taping knives for around 5-8 dollars each, you could start a nice lilttle drywall finishing business.  It's all you need, and you can check any of the DIY or websites like Home Depot and Lowes, or Menards, and confirm my statement.

If you want to get into it on a larger scale down the line, then you can start purchasing the mixing paddles, drills, and bazookas for a full blown commercial operation, but there are many a person around who has started a business such as this for little or nothing. I know a lot of  old time drywallers who have never seen the need for all the fancy crap available today and they live very comfortable lives.....personally, I don't use the fancy crap either, I can tape and bed as fast manually as I can with a banjo or similar instrument.... A person is limited only by their desire and motivations, where there is a will, there can be a way if you want it badly enough.

I know some people out in Winchester Mass who have started lucrative businesses with about the same up front capital, so it's not impossible, unless you have no desire to begin with.

Just FYI, the firewood business I started up here started out with a 200 dollar chain saw and a splitting maul.  Soon I borrowed and saved enough money to buy a wood splitter, and now sales are in the neighborhood of 30K/year, and this was a business I started last fall.  Don't tell me it can't be done.....

That one's worth a karma hit, if ever anything was...

One of the problems I always seem to see in this type of debate is the side closer to the right wing points to the extreme 0.001% of people whose only mental activity is how to screw the most out of the system, just like their ma and grandma before 'em; and at the other extreme the motivated-but-dead-unlucky types who try, really try yet never make it out of the poverty trap; neither stereotype is particularly representative of the majority... most people would rather work than not, but aren't going to bust themselves to make someone else rich by working sub-poverty wages (he says, making another generalization based on no firm statistics)

The success stories (like Davey's old man) have to have a smidgeon of luck - for example, if someone else had tried the same thing six months later, it may well have failed 'cause ol' Mr Thrashmister's business was doing too well.
He's a hangman?


Karma +1 for the "hangman" crack. I was going to say that!

I think it depends on what you mean by "business" and "start."  What kind of business, where are you starting, what equpment do you need, how many employees do you need to hire, etc.  I mean, if you need office space, an employee payroll, insurance, and so forth, and you've got $200.00 to your name, you'll need a bank loan, which you'll get only if you have enough collateral.  Then you need your angel capital and your investors.

If you drive around with a chain saw and a log splitter offering your services, yeah, you could do it with $200.00, provided you've already got your own truck. 

Now, I'm all for individual initiative, such as the way you started your wood cutting service.  Our politicians, however, talk like they favor individual initiative, then do nothing to foster it. 

You have provided no documentation specifying exactly who is receiving no-deadline welfare, how much, and what for, nor have I seen any evidence of discrete "entertainment allowances."  Of course, I do not expect you to have such proof at your fingertips.  However, unless you do, it is anectdote subject to vagueness, misinterpretation, exaggeration, and hyperbole.  In short, you might be right, but I have my doubts.

The success stories (like Davey's old man) have to have a smidgeon of luck - for example, if someone else had tried the same thing six months later, it may well have failed 'cause ol' Mr Thrashmister's business was doing too well.
He's a hangman?


Although being a hangman would be a superb profession, he's a roofer.. I followed him in to the family business, then decided I'd like to go and finish my degree.

Of course there's a little luck, but without the tenacity and rugged individualism involved from the start you're bound to fail.

Although being a hangman would be a superb profession, he's a roofer.. I followed him in to the family business, then decided I'd like to go and finish my degree.

Of course there's a little luck, but without the tenacity and rugged individualism involved from the start you're bound to fail.


My step-brother is a roofer.  He's actually smarter and better-read than I am.  He was a teacher for a while.  The battle with the booze really took it's toll on the poor guy.  I mean, roofing is a fine trade, but it doesn't make use of his gifts.  I'm just grateful he survived his 20s.  Jesus, he dropped out of five colleges, drifted from coast to coast, and practically drowned in gin.  The horror stories of his wild years are still coming out (eg. You did a speedball?  What are you nuts?  You've got a heart murmur!)
:o

Karma +1 for the "hangman" crack. I was going to say that!

I think it depends on what you mean by "business" and "start."  What kind of business, where are you starting, what equpment do you need, how many employees do you need to hire, etc.  I mean, if you need office space, an employee payroll, insurance, and so forth, and you've got $200.00 to your name, you'll need a bank loan, which you'll get only if you have enough collateral.  Then you need your angel capital and your investors.

If you drive around with a chain saw and a log splitter offering your services, yeah, you could do it with $200.00, provided you've already got your own truck. 

Now, I'm all for individual initiative, such as the way you started your wood cutting service.  Our politicians, however, talk like they favor individual initiative, then do nothing to foster it. 

You have provided no documentation specifying exactly who is receiving no-deadline welfare, how much, and what for, nor have I seen any evidence of discrete "entertainment allowances."  Of course, I do not expect you to have such proof at your fingertips.  However, unless you do, it is anectdote subject to vagueness, misinterpretation, exaggeration, and hyperbole.  In short, you might be right, but I have my doubts.


OK Max...enough of your rhetoric in these matters and your constant changing of positions.

First you say "Please don't tell me you started your business for 50 bucks" or words to that effect, then I show you how to do it, and then you (sort of ) obligingly show ways it can or could be done...then you add "it depends on what type of business and what you mean by start"...correct me if I'm wrong, but if ANY person decides to start (offer) ANY type of service , then that is a business, correct??  As long as the person is not working for some big corporation then they have indeed started a business, correct??

As far as you "doubting" what I've said about the welfare system, and your desire to have me provide proof before you believe it...remember that little thing called "confidentiality"  ??  Maybe you've heard of it and maybe you just might have to use it in your day to day routine as a medical transcriptionist??  Where did you get your proof from of "sweeping welfare reform" that led you to make your comment about what happened back in the 90's??  ABC news??  Is that real proof just because the news says so??

You know it's possible to hear details from people that work in places like the welfare department and understand the guidelines and atrocities of a system like that and never get named examples.....and somebody who is ignorant enough to poo poo away what might be real is closed minded and probably never thinks outside the box......

Ditto with the wood business

OK Max...enough of your rhetoric in these matters and your constant changing of positions.

First you say "Please don't tell me you started your business for 50 bucks" or words to that effect, then I show you how to do it, and then you (sort of ) obligingly show ways it can or could be done...then you add "it depends on what type of business and what you mean by start"...correct me if I'm wrong, but if ANY person decides to start (offer) ANY type of service , then that is a business, correct??  As long as the person is not working for some big corporation then they have indeed started a business, correct??

As far as you "doubting" what I've said about the welfare system, and your desire to have me provide proof before you believe it...remember that little thing called "confidentiality"  ??  Maybe you've heard of it and maybe you just might have to use it in your day to day routine as a medical transcriptionist??  Where did you get your proof from of "sweeping welfare reform" that led you to make your comment about what happened back in the 90's??  ABC news??  Is that real proof just because the news says so??

You know it's possible to hear details from people that work in places like the welfare department and understand the guidelines and atrocities of a system like that and never get named examples.....and somebody who is ignorant enough to poo poo away what might be real is closed minded and probably never thinks outside the box......

Ditto with the wood business


Alright, alright, alright.  That will be all.  Ciao.

"We don't run Washington, and no one really does.
Ask not what you can do for your country,
Ask what your country did to you."
  - Nicole Blackman w/KMFDM, Dogma

"Our only participation in running Washington is Rock the Vote.
Ask not what you can do for your country,
Ask what your country did to you"
  - Nicole Blackman, Indictment

The original Blackman poem is Indictment, which she edited down to make KMFDM's Dogma... but performed in its entirety when she opened with it during the live tour.

I would fight and die for Canada only if it were absolutely necessary I guess. I can't ever see myself going off to Afghanistan and dying just because of some commitment one of our Prime Ministers made in the post 9/11 anti-terror fury. But if we were all really in danger, fight or flight kind of thing, I can see myself joining the forces to defend us.

Why would I fight to protect Canada? Because I truly do believe in its principles (they're my principles), and I love the land (it's my land), and I love the people (they're my people), I love the history (it's my history) etc... When my great-grandfather or perhaps great-great-grandfather came over here and settled down it was a very different country (it was barely a country at all more than it was a provincial British colony that few people really cared about). But over the years it has slowly but steadily grown into something very special in the world and I love it. Not the way I love mommy and daddy, or the way I love other adults... I think the love that most people in the world feel for there country is something altogether different.

As for the US (I hold a US passport as well, as my mother is an American), I can't say that I would ever fight for it. If the country did once have decent principles, and I believe it did, it has gone so far far away from those principles and I can't say as I think they'll ever get back. The US is too big of a machine, I don't feel safe when I am there, and I don't feel like I matter either, and it's true. The US government is unconcerned with its citizens on an individual basis. You're one in 300 million others. Living there and being surrounded by that media system (propaganda machine), you're living in a vaccuum of lies. You begin to not trust anything you read or hear, and you get mentally and emotionally fatigued after a couple years of "caring" and "wanting to make a difference." The odds of you actually making any difference when put up against that MACHINE of a corporate system, media system and government system, well, there are basically no odds. You are f**ked. In order to be a good, healthy American you have to be quiet, blind, ignorant, clueless and pay your taxes with no questions... That's what they want from you, and if you don't do that, if you want to criticise and take part and speak out and all that other stuff, they have plenty of obstacles to put in your way to shut you down. So basically I abandoned ship on the States, and my life has never been more peaceful since. I still send in my absentee vote, but that's it. I have no plans to ever return to live in the US, and in fact I have specific plans not to do that. I truthfully don't feel 100% comfortable even when I go visit, because I know once I set foot on US soil, they don't recognise my Canadian nationality and I am under their complete authority. If anything were to ever happen, they would not allow Canadian consular services to come to my aid. I don't like that idea.

I would die for a cause if this country left its way.  Freedom is what drives this country.  I would fight to uphold what the fore fathers were trying to create in America.

I served my country in the military but never really cared to die for it. 

Its not America that is great, its freedom.   When our rights our completely taken away from us, well, then we have a sheeshty country.   


  I'll raise a glass to that.  Several, in fact...

I would fight and die for Canada only if it were absolutely necessary I guess. I can't ever see myself going off to Afghanistan and dying just because of some commitment one of our Prime Ministers made in the post 9/11 anti-terror fury. But if we were all really in danger, fight or flight kind of thing, I can see myself joining the forces to defend us.

Why would I fight to protect Canada? Because I truly do believe in its principles (they're my principles), and I love the land (it's my land), and I love the people (they're my people), I love the history (it's my history) etc... When my great-grandfather or perhaps great-great-grandfather came over here and settled down it was a very different country (it was barely a country at all more than it was a provincial British colony that few people really cared about). But over the years it has slowly but steadily grown into something very special in the world and I love it. Not the way I love mommy and daddy, or the way I love other adults... I think the love that most people in the world feel for there country is something altogether different.

As for the US (I hold a US passport as well, as my mother is an American), I can't say that I would ever fight for it. If the country did once have decent principles, and I believe it did, it has gone so far far away from those principles and I can't say as I think they'll ever get back. The US is too big of a machine, I don't feel safe when I am there, and I don't feel like I matter either, and it's true. The US government is unconcerned with its citizens on an individual basis. You're one in 300 million others. Living there and being surrounded by that media system (propaganda machine), you're living in a vaccuum of lies. You begin to not trust anything you read or hear, and you get mentally and emotionally fatigued after a couple years of "caring" and "wanting to make a difference." The odds of you actually making any difference when put up against that MACHINE of a corporate system, media system and government system, well, there are basically no odds. You are f**ked. In order to be a good, healthy American you have to be quiet, blind, ignorant, clueless and pay your taxes with no questions... That's what they want from you, and if you don't do that, if you want to criticise and take part and speak out and all that other stuff, they have plenty of obstacles to put in your way to shut you down. So basically I abandoned ship on the States, and my life has never been more peaceful since. I still send in my absentee vote, but that's it. I have no plans to ever return to live in the US, and in fact I have specific plans not to do that. I truthfully don't feel 100% comfortable even when I go visit, because I know once I set foot on US soil, they don't recognise my Canadian nationality and I am under their complete authority. If anything were to ever happen, they would not allow Canadian consular services to come to my aid. I don't like that idea.

A fascist state brings comfort to some and sorrow to others.  I'm in the sorrow camp.  When I was born the country was in turmoil, but there was hope.  Today we are returning to turmoil--sans hope.
:(

  I'll raise a glass to that.  Several, in fact...


Me too.

At this point in time, I'm far more likely to take up arms and fight out Government to protect the American people, than I am to take up arms for our government and crush the very principals that this nation was founded upon - Next thing you know, they'll take your thoughts away.

Me too.

At this point in time, I'm far more likely to take up arms and fight out Government to protect the American people, than I am to take up arms for our government and crush the very principals that this nation was founded upon - Next thing you know, they'll take your thoughts away.

Now would be a great time to take over the United States government.  The National Guard is depleted an thanks to Posse Commitatus, they can't use the regular military on us.  Oh, wait a minute, if we take over the government and suspend the Constitution, Posse Commitatus won't apply.
:o

Now would be a great time to take over the United States government.  The National Guard is depleted an thanks to Posse Commitatus, they can't use the regular military on us.  Oh, wait a minute, if we take over the government and suspend the Constitution, Posse Commitatus won't apply.
:o


Now would be a great time to take them on, but alas, the secondary war against the population 'dumbing down' has led to a populace incapable of getting angry about the rape of our rights.

most folks seem to just want their MTV.

most folks seem to just want their MTV.


And MTV sucks too.  I dont get it.

they wanna fight for their right to party.

they wanna fight for their right to party.


57 channels and nothin' on.

It's a good thing most people have cable.  Without cable, there would be riots all across America when analog TV (NTSC over "bunny ears") goes dark on February 17, 2009.

And MTV sucks too.  I dont get it.


It USED to be good.



Cat

Now would be a great time to take them on, but alas, the secondary war against the population 'dumbing down' has led to a populace incapable of getting angry about the rape of our rights.


Rights?  Do you think the terrorists care about your rights?  You just be thankful for our benign rulers and their USA Patriot Act.  Without it, you'd be fighting terrorists on Main Street of your own town!

Rights?  Do you think the terrorists care about your rights?  You just be thankful for our benign rulers and their USA Patriot Act.  Without it, you'd be fighting terrorists on Main Street of your own town!


I am. They're called cops.  :o :-X

Ever since I got called in for simply expressing an opinion about one of our glorious leaders I've been getting slowly more pissed off with the current "Watch what you say." climate. I've always been of the opinion that you can say what you want, but until recently it had never affected me, now.. I dunno, it's got to the point where I'm starting to wonder what's going to happen come 2008 - I'm not so sure Democracy will be in action.

Oh well, I live in St. Louis, we've got more guns than Baghdad!

I am. They're called cops.  :o :-X
Tell me about it!  When I'm driving on up the road late at night, I don't get nervous if a Muslim starts following me, I get nervous if a frikkin' cop starts following me! 

I hate it when people say, "Well, if you don't do anything against the law, you don't have to fear the cops!"
I've had cops pull me over for unbelievable trivial crap.  And you know what?  You have to be nice and polite or the cops can always find away to make you miserable. 

Ever since I got called in for simply expressing an opinion about one of our glorious leaders I've been getting slowly more pissed off with the current "Watch what you say." climate. I've always been of the opinion that you can say what you want, but until recently it had never affected me, now.. I dunno, it's got to the point where I'm starting to wonder what's going to happen come 2008 - I'm not so sure Democracy will be in action.
When the Whitheouse spokesman warned us after 9/11 that "Americans have to watch what they say," and the people didn't react without outrage, I knew I was living in a country of sheeple. 


Oh well, I live in St. Louis, we've got more guns than Baghdad!

Oh you live in St. Louis?  I was just watching a bit of your city's history on YouTube, the demolition of the Pruitt-Igoe housing project in the early '70s, as featured in the film Koyaanisqatsi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t29fgA5M7VA
It's in the beginning of this clip.  They pan over the abandoned buildings and their implosion starts the demolition montage, which I found to be the most alienating part of the film.  There's a tragic story behind Pruitt-Igoe, as there is behind the entire failed policy of "warehousing" the poor in hulking tenaments like that.  They've just demolished the last building in Chicago's infamous Robert Taylor Homes, which was once the largest housing project in the country.  I'm off topic here, it's just a subject that interests me.  Anyway....

Tell me about it!  When I'm driving on up the road late at night, I don't get nervous if a Muslim starts following me, I get nervous if a frikkin' cop starts following me! 

I hate it when people say, "Well, if you don't do anything against the law, you don't have to fear the cops!"
I've had cops pull me over for unbelievable trivial crap.  And you know what?  You have to be nice and polite or the cops can always find away to make you miserable. 
When the Whitheouse spokesman warned us after 9/11 that "Americans have to watch what they say," and the people didn't react without outrage, I knew I was living in a country of sheeple. 
Oh you live in St. Louis?  I was just watching a bit of your city's history on YouTube, the demolition of the Pruitt-Igoe housing project in the early '70s, as featured in the film Koyaanisqatsi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t29fgA5M7VA
It's in the beginning of this clip.  They pan over the abandoned buildings and their implosion starts the demolition montage, which I found to be the most alienating part of the film.  There's a tragic story behind Pruitt-Igoe, as there is behind the entire failed policy of "warehousing" the poor in hulking tenaments like that.  They've just demolished the last building in Chicago's infamous Robert Taylor Homes, which was once the largest housing project in the country.  I'm off topic here, it's just a subject that interests me.  Anyway....


For a long time I was able to ignore it and just think "It could never happen to me." and then.. I dunno if you saw, but the Cops came to speak to me about some comments I made whilst I was out drinking.. now, they were very nice about it and explained that they just had to follow up and weren't even going to make a record of it (bulls**t, there's clearly a record of that.) but I was thinking "Damn, Thought police or what." .. and then it occurred to me. If the Police have the authority to 'talk' to me about a flippant remark I made that was of no threat to anybody, then what if I said "F**k that F**ker, I'll shoot him." Uh oh, Handcuffs!

The thing is, this has been in the case in most parts of Europe, Asia etc, for years. Guilty until proven innocent. The authorities can assume you've done something wrong, you have to prove you haven't.

Pruitt-Igoe was long gone before I moved here, but back in London we had pretty much the same thing.

I am. They're called cops.  :o :-X

Ever since I got called in for simply expressing an opinion about one of our glorious leaders I've been getting slowly more pissed off with the current "Watch what you say." climate. I've always been of the opinion that you can say what you want, but until recently it had never affected me, now.. I dunno, it's got to the point where I'm starting to wonder what's going to happen come 2008 - I'm not so sure Democracy will be in action.

Oh well, I live in St. Louis, we've got more guns than Baghdad!
yah, big part of the reason why i think this country needs a time-out.

yah, big part of the reason why i think this country needs a time-out.


Or a civil war.

Tell me about it!  When I'm driving on up the road late at night, I don't get nervous if a Muslim starts following me, I get nervous if a frikkin' cop starts following me! 




My father drove cab for a while and after that he said never tell a child to ask a cop for help, tell them to ask an older woman if possible, they are your best chance, but never, ever ask a cop.  He didn't say why, but he was adamant.

yah, big part of the reason why i think this country needs a time-out.




Screw timeout...its needs a big ass whooping with a belt.  Wait, thats abuse.  Ok, sit in the corner for 15 minutes and think about what you have done little Dubya.

My father drove cab for a while and after that he said never tell a child to ask a cop for help, tell them to ask an older woman if possible, they are your best chance, but never, ever ask a cop.  He didn't say why, but he was adamant.


As Ice-T said, in some neighborhoods the cops are the army of occupation.  That might have something to do with it. 

The few times I've called cops to act as peacekeepers, they've heaped verbal abuse on me.  They got there before the fight broke out, before a crime had been committed, therefore they couldn't rough anybody up or arrest anyone.  They hate that. 

A long time ago my friend Jed (a white dude) lived in Roxbury.  He saw a fight break out down the block from his apartment, so he called the cops.  The cops came down and beat everybody up, hauled two of the kids away in the cruiser, and left the other two bloody and bruised on the sidewalk.  Jed thought next time it might be better to just let the fistfight run its course!
(No, they weren't armed; contrary to media-driven perceptions, most inner city kids don't walk around with guns.)
::)

As Ice-T said, in some neighborhoods the cops are the army of occupation.  That might have something to do with it. 

The few times I've called cops to act as peacekeepers, they've heaped verbal abuse on me.  They got there before the fight broke out, before a crime had been committed, therefore they couldn't rough anybody up or arrest anyone.  They hate that. 

A long time ago my friend Jed (a white dude) lived in Roxbury.  He saw a fight break out down the block from his apartment, so he called the cops.  The cops came down and beat everybody up, hauled two of the kids away in the cruiser, and left the other two bloody and bruised on the sidewalk.  Jed thought next time it might be better to just let the fistfight run its course!
(No, they weren't armed; contrary to media-driven perceptions, most inner city kids don't walk around with guns.)
::)



Once I was hanging around Kenmore Square after going to The Rat and there were some breakdancers.  All of the sudden a cop car pulled over, a cop jumped out and grabbed one of the kids and started screaming about the kid bothering a "white girl".  Seems the kid had tried to pick up a "white girl" in the Pizza shop and someone called the cops.  Things is, the girl was there with the kid and started crying.  The other cops had to pull him off of the kid(about 16 years old), but the space case insisted on bringing in the kid, some trumped up charge.  A lot of people saw it and it was Kenmore so a couple of law students followed the cop car to help the kid out, took some witness phone numbers.  I heard it didn't get farther than the desk sargeant(the witness thing is such a bitch)

Once I was hanging around Kenmore Square after going to The Rat and there were some breakdancers.  All of the sudden a cop car pulled over, a cop jumped out and grabbed one of the kids and started screaming about the kid bothering a "white girl".  Seems the kid had tried to pick up a "white girl" in the Pizza shop and someone called the cops.  Things is, the girl was there with the kid and started crying.  The other cops had to pull him off of the kid(about 16 years old), but the space case insisted on bringing in the kid, some trumped up charge.  A lot of people saw it and it was Kenmore so a couple of law students followed the cop car to help the kid out, took some witness phone numbers.  I heard it didn't get farther than the desk sargeant(the witness thing is such a bitch)

Pizza Pad per chance?  I don't doubt it, but I never saw any such incidents there.  Pizza Pad did serve as a stage for the post-alcohol dramas of the adolescent sexual angst of squalling BU brats, but I never saw the cops down there.
I don't miss Pizza Pad...and I apologise to the editors of the Boston Phoenix, but I don't miss the Rat either!  Heck, I haven't even been to Kenmore Square in years, and I can't say I've ever pined for it. 
:P

Pizza Pad per chance?  I don't doubt it, but I never saw any such incidents there.  Pizza Pad did serve as a stage for the post-alcohol dramas of the adolescent sexual angst of squalling BU brats, but I never saw the cops down there.
I don't miss Pizza Pad...and I apologise to the editors of the Boston Phoenix, but I don't miss the Rat either!  Heck, I haven't even been to Kenmore Square in years, and I can't say I've ever pined for it. 
:P


I worked at the B.U. bookstore so I was there 5 days a week for a couple of years(you ain't sh***ing when you say BU brats).  The Rat sucked, so did Pizza Pad.  The only thing I miss is Mr. Butch, the Mayor of Kenmore Square. 

http://www.billtmiller.com/mrbutchshow/mrbutch_allston_btm_0006.jpg

Woweeee, I just googled him and it seems the BU cops ran him out of Kenmore, he has moved to Allston. 

www.mrbutchshow.com/

I worked at the B.U. bookstore so I was there 5 days a week for a couple of years(you ain't sh***ing when you say BU brats).  The Rat sucked, so did Pizza Pad.  The only thing I miss is Mr. Butch, the Mayor of Kenmore Square. 

http://www.billtmiller.com/mrbutchshow/mrbutch_allston_btm_0006.jpg

Woweeee, I just googled him and it seems the BU cops ran him out of Kenmore, he has moved to Allston. 

www.mrbutchshow.com/

Oh, I thought that happened years ago.  I used to walk by Mr. Butch all the time.  Sometimes I gave him some change.  He never bothered me and I never bothered him...not a good idea.  Mr. Butch made the TV news once for smacking around some college kid.  Turns out the kid called him the N word.  You do not call Mr. Butch the N word!
:D

I tried not to judge the entire institution of BU by the idiots crowding Kenmore and Lansdown, but when John "Sourpuss" Silber came out and ran for governor, my associations with the university became toxic!  I even voted for Silber, though he was as likeable as a turd in the road.  You must have seen your share working at that bookstore!

I do miss Planet Records.  I used to go to Nuggets too, but my days of trolling for rare Gang of Four records are long gone!
;D