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Subject: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: xSiouXBoIx on 11/29/07 at 5:30 pm

i am always thinking about how Americans are seen by the rest of the world. one of the biggest traits we seem to posesses is ignorance of other cultures. now i'm thinking about why we are so ignorant of other cultures. so many of us have such a hard time locating countries on maps.....i couldn't locate many countries (like Greece or Germany) until i was promopted to study maps after seeing how we are looked upon. i could't locate anything in the middle east until recently....i didn't even know where the middle east was!  :(

a German guy who came to America was asked by a teenage girl if they drive cars in Germany.....you see.....it's little things like that, too. why are so many of us like this???

some of us even have a hard time remembering bits of American history. i asked three or four people several months ago if they knew when the Declaration of Independence was signed, and they didn't know. i asked two people if they knew when the Civial War was fought, and they didn't know that.....i know the answers to those, by the way.

our education system recieves heaps of criticism. what is wrong with it?

i know this is going to get a lot of snarky and sarcastic comments....... :-\\

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 11/29/07 at 5:40 pm

Arrogance

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 11/29/07 at 5:49 pm

I completely agree with you, SiouxBoi.

I would blame most of it on a half@$$ed public education system.  We're too cheap to be willing to fund our systems well enough to match those of Western Europe, but at the same time, we're also plagued by religious controversies over things that shouldn't be controversial -- like teaching evolution.

With the way things work in America, we'd be better off privatizing education altogether.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 11/29/07 at 5:58 pm




With the way things work in America, we'd be better off privatizing education altogether.




I think all education should be public, and intergrated along economic lines.  If the rich were in the same boat as the poor in regards to the education of their children then things would get done. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: snozberries on 11/29/07 at 6:47 pm



Arrogance is right...there is certain amount of egocentricism that has been bred into US citizens... its very much about US and rarely about them... that's why Americans are considered Ugly Americans in other parts of the world... I still recall the very first Amazing Race, watching one team yell at people of other nations as tho the citizens of those countries were wrong. 

There's no excuse for it... we live in a world of information... Satellite gives us exposure to many nations so turn off fox and turn on BBC

If you don't have satellite then get on the internet and learn something other than what they teach in schools... the education system tho definitely needs retooling.



i asked three or four people several months ago if they knew when the Declaration of Independence was signed, and they didn't know.

i asked two people if they knew when the Civial War was fought, and they didn't know that.....i know the answers to those, by the way.





1776

and 1860 - 65  (I'm not certain about the start date but I know when the war ended)  It always seemed so long ago when I was in school but as I got older I realized that it really wasn't that long ago.  I was born in 1967. 

I had a coworker who was studying to take the test for citizenship... there were 20 of us in the office and most of the questions we could not answer....she was disgusted with the fact that she had to learn something Americans didn't know anyway....to me it seems an awful lot like the "voting requirements" during the 1960s.  Blacks were expected to read and comprehend complicated legal passages.  How is that fair...especially when  redneck bubba from down the way probably couldn't spell his own name....  >:(

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 11/29/07 at 6:52 pm

wait. they have cars in germany?

in our defense, americans are among the most overworked people in the industrialized world. AND we're flanked by two huge gaping oceans (although this doesn't help explain why we're so disengaged from canada and latin america) AND america is quite vast on its own, sorta got our hands full just learning south dakota from montana.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: snozberries on 11/29/07 at 6:54 pm


wait. they have cars in germany?

in our defense, americans are among the most overworked people in the industrialized world. AND we're flanked by two huge gaping oceans (although this doesn't help explain why we're so disengaged from canada and latin america) AND america is quite vast on its own, sorta got our hands full just learning south dakota from montana.




lol.... wait  there's a SOUTH Dakota????  ;D




Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ultraviolet52 on 11/29/07 at 7:44 pm

I think a lot has to do with arrogance and also partly on parenting. I know my school system could've been better, but it was my mom and dad who kept me fascinated with rather boring stuff that my school taught, but didn't quite dig deep down enough. I think also, with the advent of community colleges, there should be no excuse for people in the states to not at least aim for an AA degree - which would give them a broad amount of college theory courses and in which it would broaden their horizons. Americans have something at their feet, but won't take the bite. I'm not saying to try and squeeze it all in 2 years, because I understand how difficult that is for those of us who work and have families, but let's just say it's never too late.  :)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 11/29/07 at 10:08 pm


i am always thinking about how Americans are seen by the rest of the world. one of the biggest traits we seem to posesses is ignorance of other cultures. now i'm thinking about why we are so ignorant of other cultures. so many of us have such a hard time locating countries on maps.....i couldn't locate many countries (like Greece or Germany) until i was promopted to study maps after seeing how we are looked upon. i could't locate anything in the middle east until recently....i didn't even know where the middle east was!  :(

a German guy who came to America was asked by a teenage girl if they drive cars in Germany.....you see.....it's little things like that, too. why are so many of us like this???

some of us even have a hard time remembering bits of American history. i asked three or four people several months ago if they knew when the Declaration of Independence was signed, and they didn't know. i asked two people if they knew when the Civial War was fought, and they didn't know that.....i know the answers to those, by the way.

our education system recieves heaps of criticism. what is wrong with it?

i know this is going to get a lot of snarky and sarcastic comments....... :-\\


  I would venture to guess that many Americans are very familliar with other cultures since our country was settled by peoples of all nations...

  So why do you think nationalism bad and multi-culturalism good..?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: karen on 11/29/07 at 10:09 pm


wait. they have cars in germany?

in our defense, americans are among the most overworked people in the industrialized world. AND we're flanked by two huge gaping oceans (although this doesn't help explain why we're so disengaged from canada and latin america) AND america is quite vast on its own, sorta got our hands full just learning south dakota from montana.




1)  Americans spend the most hours in work but are among the least productive for the hours spent there.  Perhaps they are all surfing the net trying leanr the difference between South Dakota and Montana.

2) They can't sort out the difference between South Dakota and Montana because there is essentially no difference between these two places.  In England there is more difference and diversity in two neighbouring counties than across much of America.

It seems to me to be partly arrogance and also that America has a lot of first generation immigrants so they pick up the impression that America is such a great place to live there's no reason to find out about all those other places.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: xSiouXBoIx on 11/29/07 at 10:46 pm

i get the idea that some of us just don't care. i asked my sister if she knew where Australia was, and she said no, and i said don't you think you should know?, and she said that she didn't care where Australia was.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: snozberries on 11/29/07 at 10:51 pm


i get the idea that some of us just don't care. i asked my sister if she knew where Australia was, and she said no, and i said don't you think you should know?, and she said that she didn't care where Australia was.


poor Alan....

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: statsqueen on 11/29/07 at 10:54 pm

I think the argument about it being arrogance is at least partly right, though I'm sure there are other contributing causes.  Americans go around thinking they have the best country, etc. and what blows my mind (off topic?) is that we go to other countries and expect the citizens of those countries to speak English when we can't be bothered to learn the language of the particular country we are visiting.  Please know that I know I am generalizing and that not all of us are like this, but when I talk to people from various African nations and they are surprised that an American knows that Africa is made up of many countries and is not just one big one, then there is something wrong with our educational system, etc.  It's like we expect everyone to learn our history, but have no desire to learn anyone else's.  BTW, I will be the first to admit that I don't know all I want to know about various other cultures and there are some things I don't know/remember about American history.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/29/07 at 11:02 pm

Lack of curiosity is the heart of it all.  I don't see much interest in other cultures; I don't see much interest in our own culture. People who don't ask questions are easier to control and they'll put up with cosmic amounts of crap from the ruling class without saying, "WTF?  This isn't right!  This isn't fair!"  

If we privatized education altogether you would not get 70,000 Exeter Academies, rather fascist daycamps brought to you by Exxon-Mobil and Coca-Cola.  
:o

Anyway, my friend Ruth lived in Israel until she was eight.  Kids asked her if she used to ride a camel to school!
:D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 11/29/07 at 11:12 pm

Just a side note -- the main reason I support privatizing education is because most Americans are too cheap and greedy to support high enough taxes to properly fund education.

We also aren't willing to admit what Germany already has: that some of us are naturally more academic while others are more technical.  We have a naive one-size-fits-all system that is funded very poorly in most areas.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/29/07 at 11:23 pm


I think the argument about it being arrogance is at least partly right, though I'm sure there are other contributing causes.  Americans go around thinking they have the best country, etc. and what blows my mind (off topic?) is that we go to other countries and expect the citizens of those countries to speak English when we can't be bothered to learn the language of the particular country we are visiting.  Please know that I know I am generalizing and that not all of us are like this, but when I talk to people from various African nations and they are surprised that an American knows that Africa is made up of many countries and is not just one big one, then there is something wrong with our educational system, etc.  It's like we expect everyone to learn our history, but have no desire to learn anyone else's.  BTW, I will be the first to admit that I don't know all I want to know about various other cultures and there are some things I don't know/remember about American history.

It grates on me worse than fingers on a blackboard when the pundits and politians say "American is the greatest country in the world!"  Everybody from Helsinki to Bangkok must ask,"Then what does that make us?"  I mean, it's frikkin' embarrassing.  If you dare say, "Maybe American isn't the greatest country in the world," you get called disloyal.  Welcome to fascisim.

Speaking English versus speaking the native tongue cuts both ways.  We were in Montreal and my sister would try to speak French, they'd roll their eyes and saying with much condescension, "May I help you?"  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  I do regret I didn't learn another language.  I know a little Spanish, a little French, and a little German, but not enough to even carry on a rudimentary conversation.  

The thing is, as Tia was saying, in the U.S. you don't have much call to speak another language.  This is changing because of the rising Spanish-speaking population, but it's still more homogeneous than Europe or central Asia, for instance.  

I think it's also a little unfair to say "bother to learn another langauge."  Learning another language is hard work (especially after early childhood), and if you don't use it, you lose it.  

I had a teacher who used to say, "An intelligent person doesn't know all the answers; an intelligent person knows where to find the answers."

I don't know much about the affairs of state in Zimbabwe, but if I wanted to find out, I'd start with Wikipedia and go from there.  The problem again is not being interested in knowledge in the first place.  Your friend there isn't an ignoramous because she doesn't know where Australia is, but because she doesn't care to know where Australia is.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 11/29/07 at 11:31 pm


Just a side note -- the main reason I support privatizing education is because most Americans are too cheap and greedy to support high enough taxes to properly fund education.

We also aren't willing to admit what Germany already has: that some of us are naturally more academic while others are more technical.  We have a naive one-size-fits-all system that is funded very poorly in most areas.



It's easier to blame an English major for his unemployment than it is to blame an electrician for his unemployment.  If the state tells a youth of 14 he is going to trade school, then he's going to expect something when he's 17...a job in his trade!  That's not going to work if the state insists on committing economic suicide the way America is.  Best keep 'em twiddling their thumbs until they're 18 and then oblige the to university on sixty thousand borrowed dollars to study art history!
:P

So I guess I agree with you more than I thought!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 11/30/07 at 12:20 am


i get the idea that some of us just don't care. i asked my sister if she knew where Australia was, and she said no, and i said don't you think you should know?, and she said that she didn't care where Australia was.


  I don't hold it against someone when they don't know jack about other countries. The chance that the Taklamakan desert is going to come up in conversation is pretty small.  However, when you're sending your fathers and brothers and sons to die in exotic and far flung lands, you'd best be able to locate them on a map, I would think.  Part of the appearance of ignorance is specialization.  Americans in general work harder than is healthy, and they don't really have time for what their work ethic considers non-essential.  As I see it, this explains a number of negative appearances about Americans.  Americans recognize a skewed version of history and a bizarre version of current events...

      The "ignorant American" image simply comes from living by the bullet-list and TV listings capsule.  Americans might seem savvy as they deftly leap from buoy to buoy, but nothing about that apparent grace should suggest they have a clue what's under the water.  Some do, some don't.  Flip a coin... 

  The "arrogant American", of course, is what highlights that ignorance and makes it noteworthy. Americans are, like all stupid humans, stupid. But a stupid human picking on another stupid human for being stupid while ignoring his own stupidity in order to presume moral license makes that aggressive stupid human's stupidity stand out groove ;) on...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Red Ant on 11/30/07 at 1:01 am


i get the idea that some of us just don't care. i asked my sister if she knew where Australia was, and she said no, and i said don't you think you should know?, and she said that she didn't care where Australia was.


Geography is not the same as culture. I could locate most of the major countries (and ones that haven't changed names in 20 years...) on a map, but if you gave me a map of the US I probably wouldn't know where Kansas is ("the square looking one in the middle?").

I have to admit a degree of not caring about other countries' cultures. I know, for example, the culture in Rwanda is not genocide and civil war (and possibly FGM), but it's REALLY hard to care when that's all you hear about.

There are lots of cultures worth learning about, but learning things that help me make it in day to day life come first.

Ant

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 11/30/07 at 1:21 am


Geography is not the same as culture. I could locate most of the major countries (and ones that haven't changed names in 20 years...) on a map, but if you gave me a map of the US I probably wouldn't know where Kansas is ("the square looking one in the middle?").

I have to admit a degree of not caring about other countries' cultures. I know, for example, the culture in Rwanda is not genocide and civil war (and possibly FGM), but it's REALLY hard to care when that's all you hear about.

There are lots of cultures worth learning about, but learning things that help me make it in day to day life come first.

Ant


Bingo.

I would bet that you could name any country in the world and I could give a fair shot as to where it is. Granted, somewhere like Lesotho might throw me, but you get the general idea. But the fact is, that's general knowledge and is essentially redundant information. Who cares if I can or can't pinpoint Lesotho on the map.

Do I understand the political and economic systems of my own country and those that my country interacts with on a regular basis? Yup, certainly to a point where I can see the other side of the coin in an argument.

Do I understand why when I park my car on a hill and don't apply the hand brake it rolls away? Yes, I have a good understanding of the basic laws of physics.

This is important information, not general knowledge.

I've rambled - The point I want to make is that as a whole most Americans have very little in the way of tertiary knowledge, such as being able to name all the bones in one's foot or pinpoint a country on the map. However, the English and Math skills that I have encountered in the general population are significantly higher than those that I encountered in Western Europe.
When I was in high school in England I was in the highest set for English, when I did some schooling in the U.S, it was a culture shock, all of a sudden people expected me to use correct grammar and punctuation - I had no idea!  :o

Education at the primary level is good in the U.S, the problem however, is that at the secondary level it's very lacking.
It's bridging that gap between primary and tertiary education, because, as anybody with any common sense knows, you can't go to University and learn all that fluff without first of all learning the basics of fluff whilst in secondary education.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: snozberries on 11/30/07 at 1:48 am





Education at the primary level is good in the U.S, the problem however, is that at the secondary level it's very lacking.
It's bridging that gap between primary and tertiary education, because, as anybody with any common sense knows, you can't go to University and learn all that fluff without first of all learning the basics of fluff whilst in secondary education.


I think primary education in the US used to be good.

I worked with 6th, 7th, and 8th graders for two years and was shocked that they lacked rudimentary skills.


These kids kept journals that I would read and they would write things like

"I fel spical to spend his bathday with him" I feel special spending his birthday with him
'Fiscal edumacation is not my favirit thing" Physical education is not my favorite thing
"Todae we drawed buterflys"  Today we drew butterflies
"I was sad becuze he was lonlie" I was sad because he was lonely
"Shes not my frend anymore cause we fite" She's not my friend anymore because we fight.

I'm not making this up... these were 11, 12 and 13 year olds and they could barely write a sentence.

A co worker of mine was proof reading her sister's high school paper. It was two pages long and there was barely a cohesive thought in the thing. She knew nothing about making a statement and supporting it in following paragraphs.. Hell half the paper was off topic.  It's sad that she got through 11th grade and no one corrected her writing.  This should have been addressed in between 4th & 6th grade.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: philbo on 11/30/07 at 6:09 am

This feels kind of odd, but I'm going to stand up for (at least some) Americans: the majority of the ones I've met have been pretty well steeped in other cultures.. but then, in a way they ought to be, given that they're the ones who've actually made it out of the country.  There are obviously some exceptions (when I was a teenager, I did an exchange with a Tunisian boy: when we took him to Windsor Castle, there was an American woman who, after the nth plane from Heathrow had flown overhead said "What a stupid place to build a castle, right under the flight path" - I honestly believe she wasn't joking, either), but there are a lot of well-educated, broad-minded Americans.  Unfortunately not enough of them to elect a well-educated, broad-minded president... ;)

ISTM that you get a more cosmopolitan than average type on these messageboards, too.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 11/30/07 at 6:37 am

there was an American woman who, after the nth plane from Heathrow had flown overhead said "What a stupid place to build a castle, right under the flight path"

that's AWESOME. that should be in a movie.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 11/30/07 at 7:10 am




It seems to me to be partly arrogance and also that America has a lot of first generation immigrants so they pick up the impression that America is such a great place to live there's no reason to find out about all those other places.



It isn't the 1st generations that are arrogant.  It is the ones who drive around telling the ones who have only been here for a generation or two to "go back where they came from", who are the arrogant ones.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 11/30/07 at 7:16 am


I think primary education in the US used to be good.

I worked with 6th, 7th, and 8th graders for two years and was shocked that they lacked rudimentary skills.


These kids kept journals that I would read and they would write things like

"I fel spical to spend his bathday with him" I feel special spending his birthday with him
'Fiscal edumacation is not my favirit thing" Physical education is not my favorite thing
"Todae we drawed buterflys"  Today we drew butterflies
"I was sad becuze he was lonlie" I was sad because he was lonely
"Shes not my frend anymore cause we fite" She's not my friend anymore because we fight.

I'm not making this up... these were 11, 12 and 13 year olds and they could barely write a sentence.

A co worker of mine was proof reading her sister's high school paper. It was two pages long and there was barely a cohesive thought in the thing. She knew nothing about making a statement and supporting it in following paragraphs.. Hell half the paper was off topic.  It's sad that she got through 11th grade and no one corrected her writing.  This should have been addressed in between 4th & 6th grade.




I can be a bit of a grammar nut, not that mine is perfect, far from it, but I have noticed that there are many teachers who can't write a cohesive sentence and cannot tell a double negative from a double entendre.  All too often the person at the head of the class is there for the paycheck and is in the position because of who they, or one of their parents worked for in the last election.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: philbo on 11/30/07 at 7:27 am


... there are many teachers who can't write a cohesive sentence and cannot tell a double negative from a double entendre. ...

Well, if she's a good looking teacher, and is wanting a double-negative, how could I fail not to give her one?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 11/30/07 at 7:34 am

there are NOT a lot of teachers who can't not use the double negative!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 11/30/07 at 7:37 am

^This is  why I love this place    ;D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: karen on 11/30/07 at 8:57 am


It isn't the 1st generations that are arrogant.  It is the ones who drive around telling the ones who have only been here for a generation or two to "go back where they came from", who are the arrogant ones.


Sorry, my point wasn't clear.  I meant that the ones who have been here for a generation or two figure that since so many people are still trying to move to America 'it must be a great place'.  Many "real" Americans come across as arrogant.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Jeffpcmt on 11/30/07 at 10:33 am



I had a teacher who used to say, "An intelligent person doesn't know all the answers; an intelligent person knows where to find the answers."



That's a great quote!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 11/30/07 at 10:45 am


I think a lot has to do with arrogance and also partly on parenting. I know my school system could've been better, but it was my mom and dad who kept me fascinated with rather boring stuff that my school taught, but didn't quite dig deep down enough. I think also, with the advent of community colleges, there should be no excuse for people in the states to not at least aim for an AA degree - which would give them a broad amount of college theory courses and in which it would broaden their horizons. Americans have something at their feet, but won't take the bite. I'm not saying to try and squeeze it all in 2 years, because I understand how difficult that is for those of us who work and have families, but let's just say it's never too late.  :)


When I lived in the States, I argued frequently that the US system of education should be overhauled and completely reorganised. One of my main points was that a college education (NOT university, but 2-year college) should be all but mandatory. The book-smart kids would take the academic route, and the not-so-book-smart ones would choose a trade field. After completion, those academic stream kids that wanted to would go on to low-cost university education which would only last two years-ish. This would make higher education more affordable, because you cut the time for a degree in half by making the first 2 years essentially free and mandatory. The trade-stream kids would go on to apprenticeships in their chosen fields.

Of course, this is a big step, and could not work without some reorganisation of K-12. I think all primary schools would ideally be small and based on neighbourhoods. At grade 6, students would then go into secondary at bigger schools, in which there would be different streams as well. This way we could separate the really smart ones, from the average ones, from the 'dumber' ones, from the trouble-makers. Once separated, each stream can pursue an education tailored to their needs. The problem children would be 'whipped into shape' for a year or two before joining one of the other three streams. Any student would be able to change streams at the beginning of a new year up to a certain point, as long as they worked hard enough to show their professors they were capable of the higher challenge.

Nearing the end of secondary education, students would have to face a round of standardised, national leaving exams. These would be similar to the British A-levels, the Irish Leaving Certificate, the French Baccalauréat, the German Arbitur etc... These would give students an idea of their strengths and weaknesses, which could be worked on during the two-years of college studies. After college, there would be some other tests to see if and where a student would be admitted to university.

Oh yeah. And no private education before college and university either. No spoiled rich kids. And everyone wears uniforms, no high-school fashionistas.

This is roughly what I'm thinking when I think US education reform. I'm no expert, but I know the US schools system sucks compared to others. The Canadian system isn't so much better, because for whatever reason, most provinces decided to more or less follow the US-organisation example (they should have adopted a British-style system). The exception would be the province of Québec, which came up with a unique system tailored to what previous provincial governments decided would be Quebec's needs as the sole majority-Francophone jurisdiction in North America. This system too has its problems, but it still is better than the US one.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 11/30/07 at 12:21 pm


This feels kind of odd, but I'm going to stand up for (at least some) Americans: the majority of the ones I've met have been pretty well steeped in other cultures.. but then, in a way they ought to be, given that they're the ones who've actually made it out of the country.  There are obviously some exceptions (when I was a teenager, I did an exchange with a Tunisian boy: when we took him to Windsor Castle, there was an American woman who, after the nth plane from Heathrow had flown overhead said "What a stupid place to build a castle, right under the flight path" - I honestly believe she wasn't joking, either), but there are a lot of well-educated, broad-minded Americans.  Unfortunately not enough of them to elect a well-educated, broad-minded president... ;)

ISTM that you get a more cosmopolitan than average type on these messageboards, too.


Right, I've found the same thing.

It does make me mad when film crews go to the deepest darkest depths of Mississippi to find a 'segment of the American public' to ask some questions to. It's 50 different countries here and the citizens of Illinois are very different to the citizens of Mississippi. Of course there's going to be a lot of ignorance and apparent stupidity in the poorest of states. I use Mississippi as an example because I believe it ranks 50th in the nation in terms of the amount of money spent on primary education, other states dwelling down at the bottom include Arkansas, Alabama, Louisiana and Georgia. Do we see a pattern emerging here?

Give me a camera crew and a ticket to Heathrow and I can find ignorance that parallels that found in Mississippi, Louisiana and so on. I'd just go to Brighton, talk to some of the chavvy sorts on the seafront, sniffing glue, or up to Nottingham, have a chat with some of the gormless sorts that give it the Shottingham nickname. You can find stupidity anywhere if you look for it.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 11/30/07 at 1:17 pm

It is not just the rest of the world that many Americans don't know about-they don't even know about their own country. We travel a lot and when we tell people we are from Vermont, I can't tell you how many times we heard, "What state is that in?" One guy (in Indiana) even asked us if that was close to Virginia. We go to Puerto Rico a lot, too. Many people are not aware that PR is part of the U.S. I can't remember who it was but years ago on this board, there was an argument going on (what else is new?  ;D ;D), I can't remember about what. Someone said that Carlos' opinion didn't matter because he wasn't an American. I set this person straight telling him that Carlos was born in NJ. Also, even if he had been born in PR, like his mother was, he would STILL be an American.


Cat

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: quirky_cat_girl on 11/30/07 at 2:13 pm


It is not just the rest of the world that many Americans don't know about-they don't even know about their own country. We travel a lot and when we tell people we are from Vermont, I can't tell you how many times we heard, "What state is that in?" One guy (in Indiana) even asked us if that was close to Virginia. We go to Puerto Rico a lot, too. Many people are not aware that PR is part of the U.S. I can't remember who it was but years ago on this board, there was an argument going on (what else is new?  ;D ;D), I can't remember about what. Someone said that Carlos' opinion didn't matter because he wasn't an American. I set this person straight telling him that Carlos was born in NJ. Also, even if he had been born in PR, like his mother was, he would STILL be an American.


Cat



wow...that just boggles my mind that a US citizen wouldn't even be aware that Vermont is a state...that's so sad. :-\\

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Brian06 on 11/30/07 at 2:39 pm

Arrogance and ignorance, Americans simply don't care about anything outside their own little box usually.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: philbo on 11/30/07 at 4:31 pm



wow...that just boggles my mind that a US citizen wouldn't even be aware that Vermont is a state...that's so sad. :-\\

I thought it was one of the ingredients of a martini...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 11/30/07 at 5:56 pm


It's easier to blame an English major for his unemployment than it is to blame an electrician for his unemployment.  If the state tells a youth of 14 he is going to trade school, then he's going to expect something when he's 17...a job in his trade!  That's not going to work if the state insists on committing economic suicide the way America is.  Best keep 'em twiddling their thumbs until they're 18 and then oblige the to university on sixty thousand borrowed dollars to study art history!
:P

So I guess I agree with you more than I thought!


Good points, and I totally agree.  If we're going to continue having public education systems, they should be heavily focused on things like high-skill trades that are less vulnerable to outsourcing.  This would require a massive amount of restructuring our education systems though, and with the ridiculous amounts we dump on the military and Social Security, this isn't likely to happen....

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 11/30/07 at 6:05 pm


It is not just the rest of the world that many Americans don't know about-they don't even know about their own country. We travel a lot and when we tell people we are from Vermont, I can't tell you how many times we heard, "What state is that in?" One guy (in Indiana) even asked us if that was close to Virginia. We go to Puerto Rico a lot, too. Many people are not aware that PR is part of the U.S. I can't remember who it was but years ago on this board, there was an argument going on (what else is new?  ;D ;D), I can't remember about what. Someone said that Carlos' opinion didn't matter because he wasn't an American. I set this person straight telling him that Carlos was born in NJ. Also, even if he had been born in PR, like his mother was, he would STILL be an American.

Cat


Puerto Ricans are in a weird position.  They don't have the same electoral rights as the rest of us, unless they establish residency in one of the 50 states.  Then again, they receive benefits from our government while paying very few taxes.

Also, a lot of Puerto Ricans that still live in Puerto Rico do NOT consider themselves American.  They want independence from America, and they consider themselves Puerto Rican only.  So basically, it really depends on who you ask as to whether or not they like to be known as Americans.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 11/30/07 at 6:10 pm


Right, I've found the same thing.

It does make me mad when film crews go to the deepest darkest depths of Mississippi to find a 'segment of the American public' to ask some questions to. It's 50 different countries here and the citizens of Illinois are very different to the citizens of Mississippi. Of course there's going to be a lot of ignorance and apparent stupidity in the poorest of states. I use Mississippi as an example because I believe it ranks 50th in the nation in terms of the amount of money spent on primary education, other states dwelling down at the bottom include Arkansas, Alabama, Louisiana and Georgia. Do we see a pattern emerging here?

Give me a camera crew and a ticket to Heathrow and I can find ignorance that parallels that found in Mississippi, Louisiana and so on. I'd just go to Brighton, talk to some of the chavvy sorts on the seafront, sniffing glue, or up to Nottingham, have a chat with some of the gormless sorts that give it the Shottingham nickname. You can find stupidity anywhere if you look for it.


Good points.  The Deep South is the ass end of America, but then again, you'll find similar levels of ignorance in the Mountain states and rural areas of the Midwest as well.  More than anything, there is a massive cultural divide between urban areas and rural areas that is more blatantly defined than any geographical divisions.  By the same token, you'll find a lot of ignorant idiots and "thugs" in inner cities too.  Baltimore and Detroit are especially plagued by street trash.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 11/30/07 at 6:30 pm


I thought it was one of the ingredients of a martini...



;D ;D ;D



Puerto Ricans are in a weird position.  They don't have the same electoral rights as the rest of us, unless they establish residency in one of the 50 states.  Then again, they receive benefits from our government while paying very few taxes.

Also, a lot of Puerto Ricans that still live in Puerto Rico do NOT consider themselves American.  They want independence from America, and they consider themselves Puerto Rican only.  So basically, it really depends on who you ask as to whether or not they like to be known as Americans.



I would say that it is 1/3 Puerto Ricans who want independence, 1/3 want statheood, and 1/3 want the status quo. Most of Carlos' family (cousins) want statheood-only one of his cousins want independence (the black sheep of the family  :D ;D ;D). I heard one of his cousins say that if PR became independent, she was moving back to the states.


Cat

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 11/30/07 at 6:36 pm

I hope they go independent.  They have so much poverty that it's a bit of a drain on our system.  If they became a state, we'd have so many issues arising from it -- not to mention the language issue.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 11/30/07 at 7:31 pm


I hope they go independent.  They have so much poverty that it's a bit of a drain on our system.  If they became a state, we'd have so many issues arising from it -- not to mention the language issue.


Yes, but if it was a state then there'd be far more that the Government could do in regard to stopping said poverty. The citizens of Puerto Rico would pay more in Taxes but at the same time would get more back in terms of federal funding.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/01/07 at 1:17 pm


Yes, but if it was a state then there'd be far more that the Government could do in regard to stopping said poverty. The citizens of Puerto Rico would pay more in Taxes but at the same time would get more back in terms of federal funding.


I think you'll find that Puerto Rico is poor enough that the net financial effect would be a loss.  Even if we assume that we can enact the same corporate taxes on businesses in Puerto Rico that we enact in every other state and do the same for personal taxes on their citizens, there is so much poverty in Puerto Rico that it would be like adding another Mississippi to our union - except this one would have an extra million people.  This is NOT a good thing in terms of economics.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/01/07 at 1:35 pm


I think you'll find that Puerto Rico is poor enough that the net financial effect would be a loss.  Even if we assume that we can enact the same corporate taxes on businesses in Puerto Rico that we enact in every other state and do the same for personal taxes on their citizens, there is so much poverty in Puerto Rico that it would be like adding another Mississippi to our union - except this one would have an extra million people.  This is NOT a good thing in terms of economics.


How about we grant Puerto Rico statheood and expel a few states we don't like.  We'll all vote on it.  I'm sure a bunch of you folks out there would vote out my Massachusetts.  So be it.
:-\\

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: snozberries on 12/01/07 at 1:46 pm


I can be a bit of a grammar nut, not that mine is perfect, far from it, but I have noticed that there are many teachers who can't write a cohesive sentence and cannot tell a double negative from a double entendre.  All too often the person at the head of the class is there for the paycheck and is in the position because of who they, or one of their parents worked for in the last election.


Unfortunately teachers are do not make what they should in this country... I guess you get what you pay for

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MrCleveland on 12/01/07 at 2:47 pm


wait. they have cars in germany?


Yep. And if you own a car there, you can get your License. (I have a cousin in Germany, so I'm one of the lucky ones that isn't ignorant of other cultures.) As a matter of fact, a girl from China who resides in America is really interested that I know a lot about Chinese Culture. :)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 12/01/07 at 3:03 pm


I think you'll find that Puerto Rico is poor enough that the net financial effect would be a loss.  Even if we assume that we can enact the same corporate taxes on businesses in Puerto Rico that we enact in every other state and do the same for personal taxes on their citizens, there is so much poverty in Puerto Rico that it would be like adding another Mississippi to our union - except this one would have an extra million people.  This is NOT a good thing in terms of economics.



Puerto Rico is basically the bastard child of the U.S. When it benefits the U.S. then the U.S. will help her out. But if it benefits the Puerto Ricans, the U.S. could care less. IMO if PR became a state, they would have voting rights in Washington so they can benefit from many of the things other states do, which would help with some of its poverty issues. It is the common belief in Puerto Rico that after Fidel bites the dust, the U.S. is going to try to turn Cuba into the new Puerto Rico and and Puerto Rico will become even more abandoned then it already is. As for PR becoming independent, it really doesn't have the resources to stand on its own.



How about we grant Puerto Rico statheood and expel a few states we don't like.  We'll all vote on it.  I'm sure a bunch of you folks out there would vote out my Massachusetts.  So be it.
:-\\



What about that "Liberal" state of Vermont-you know that "tax-hiking, government expanding, latte-drinking, Volvo-driving, New York Times reading, body-piercing, Hollywood loving, left-wing freak show"  ::)


Cat

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: xSiouXBoIx on 12/01/07 at 3:19 pm

geez, i didn't know Puerto Rico was apart of North America  http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/01/azcrying.gif. i thought it was part of South America.

i have so much to learn, and i'm in my last year of high school........it's like i've learned nothing from my history/geography classes....

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: snozberries on 12/01/07 at 3:52 pm


geez, i didn't know Puerto Rico was apart of North America  http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/01/azcrying.gif. i thought it was part of South America.

i have so much to learn, and i'm in my last year of high school........it's like i've learned nothing from my history/geography classes....


good thing you have the people here to give you your true education...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: EuriskoXP on 12/01/07 at 5:57 pm

i for one am not ignorant of other cultures-> i just dont like other cultures lolol... but then again, i was homeschooled... public education is pathetic because there is no accountability for anyone, financially, academically, anything...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/01/07 at 6:15 pm

Some are,some aren't. Just like with every other nationality,don't beat yourself too much...you'd be surprised with how ignorant most people all over the world are about anything they see as different from what they are or know.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/02/07 at 2:17 pm


I think you'll find that Puerto Rico is poor enough that the net financial effect would be a loss.  Even if we assume that we can enact the same corporate taxes on businesses in Puerto Rico that we enact in every other state and do the same for personal taxes on their citizens, there is so much poverty in Puerto Rico that it would be like adding another Mississippi to our union - except this one would have an extra million people.  This is NOT a good thing in terms of economics.


I'm not so sure the effects would be as bad as adding another Mississippi to the Union. You have to take in to account the improvements in infrastructure and organization that would occur if Puerto Rico were added to the Union.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Claude_Prez on 12/02/07 at 3:04 pm


Some are,some aren't. Just like with every other nationality,don't beat yourself too much...you'd be surprised with how ignorant most people all over the world are about anything they see as different from what they are or know.


We have a winner.  IMHO.

Lumping all Americans as arrogant and/or ignorant is like lumping all teachers as underpaid or all students as underachieving. 

Besides, other cultures can be intensely boring.  Seriously.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 3:07 pm


How about we grant Puerto Rico statheood and expel a few states we don't like.  We'll all vote on it.  I'm sure a bunch of you folks out there would vote out my Massachusetts.  So be it.
:-\\


I wouldn't.  Massachusetts is one of the most prosperous states.  The main reason why I don't want Puerto Rico as a state is that it would easily be the poorest one.  We have enough poor people as it is.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 3:11 pm



Puerto Rico is basically the bastard child of the U.S. When it benefits the U.S. then the U.S. will help her out. But if it benefits the Puerto Ricans, the U.S. could care less. IMO if PR became a state, they would have voting rights in Washington so they can benefit from many of the things other states do, which would help with some of its poverty issues. It is the common belief in Puerto Rico that after Fidel bites the dust, the U.S. is going to try to turn Cuba into the new Puerto Rico and and Puerto Rico will become even more abandoned then it already is. As for PR becoming independent, it really doesn't have the resources to stand on its own.


Agreed, but isn't that the way it should be?  I mean, if I were president of any country, I wouldn't add a really poor territory into my official provinces or states, unless there were tons of natural resources that made up for it.  We have to be practical about these things, even if it may be callous.



What about that "Liberal" state of Vermont-you know that "tax-hiking, government expanding, latte-drinking, Volvo-driving, New York Times reading, body-piercing, Hollywood loving, left-wing freak show"  ::)


Cat


If I'm not mistaken, Vermont wants independence.  I'd happily grant it to them, although if I could afford it, I'd also move there.  From what I understand, it's very liberal, but also very expensive.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 3:15 pm


I'm not so sure the effects would be as bad as adding another Mississippi to the Union. You have to take in to account the improvements in infrastructure and organization that would occur if Puerto Rico were added to the Union.


Perhaps, but what makes up a lot of my view on Puerto Rico are statistics on Puerto Ricans that move here.  There is a much higher percentage of Puerto Ricans on welfare than most other ethnicities.  To me, I see that as a drain.  It's nothing against them personally, but I just don't want a bunch of poor people flooding into America.  We get enough of that from Mexico.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/02/07 at 3:54 pm


Perhaps, but what makes up a lot of my view on Puerto Rico are statistics on Puerto Ricans that move here.  There is a much higher percentage of Puerto Ricans on welfare than most other ethnicities.  To me, I see that as a drain.  It's nothing against them personally, but I just don't want a bunch of poor people flooding into America.  We get enough of that from Mexico.


You crack me up :P

You make me wanna sing!
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need



Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 12/02/07 at 4:47 pm


Agreed, but isn't that the way it should be?  I mean, if I were president of any country, I wouldn't add a really poor territory into my official provinces or states, unless there were tons of natural resources that made up for it.  We have to be practical about these things, even if it may be callous.



If I'm not mistaken, Vermont wants independence.  I'd happily grant it to them, although if I could afford it, I'd also move there.  From what I understand, it's very liberal, but also very expensive.



There a few in Vermont who wants independence but it is not what the majority wants. The cost of living here is fairly low-compared to other parts of the country. BUT wages are also low and there are many arguments about taxes being too high.


Perhaps, but what makes up a lot of my view on Puerto Rico are statistics on Puerto Ricans that move here.  There is a much higher percentage of Puerto Ricans on welfare than most other ethnicities.  To me, I see that as a drain.  It's nothing against them personally, but I just don't want a bunch of poor people flooding into America.  We get enough of that from Mexico.



You don't understand that Puerto Rican ARE U.S. citizens-made so by an act of Congress in 1917-the Jones Act (just in time for them to serve in WWI  ::) ).


Cat

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 4:50 pm


You crack me up :P

You make me wanna sing!
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need






I realize what I said wasn't politically correct, but it is true.  In order to maintain a high standard of living, you have to be selective of who you let into your country.  Scandinavian countries understand this perfectly, as do New Zealand and Australia.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 4:53 pm



There a few in Vermont who wants independence but it is not what the majority wants. The cost of living here is fairly low-compared to other parts of the country. BUT wages are also low and there are many arguments about taxes being too high.


Well, I can assure you that the cost of living in Vermont is much higher than it is here in North Carolina.


You don't understand that Puerto Rican ARE U.S. citizens-made so by an act of Congress in 1917-the Jones Act (just in time for them to serve in WWI  ::) ).


Cat


Good point, but that can easily be revoked by giving them their independence, which is why I'm pushing for it.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/02/07 at 8:25 pm


I wouldn't.  Massachusetts is one of the most prosperous states.  The main reason why I don't want Puerto Rico as a state is that it would easily be the poorest one.  We have enough poor people as it is.

I just said "Massachusetts" because I realized I'd offend certain people from certain regions if I suggested certain states.  My thinking was about the Billy-Bob Bubbah rednecks who say, "The South is gonna rise again!"  I'd like to let the old Confederacy try it again for 25 years and just see how far they get. 

The fact is, the so-called "blue" states subsidize the so-called "red" states to a large degree. 

The only reason I do not favor statheood for Puerto Rico is because our country is on the way down.  Our economy-- terms of real people, real industry, real money---is shrinking, not expanding.  In 1910 or even 1950, we might have been able to absorb Puerto Rico.  No longer.  Our infrastructure is coming apart at the seams as it is.

Citizens of Puerto Rico are entitled to some social welfare benefits while they reside there, but less than state citizens, and the social welfare state for the states is a joke.  There's not much of a social safety net in the U.S., which indeed makes for a more nervous nation. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 8:49 pm


I just said "Massachusetts" because I realized I'd offend certain people from certain regions if I suggested certain states.  My thinking was about the Billy-Bob Bubbah rednecks who say, "The South is gonna rise again!"  I'd like to let the old Confederacy try it again for 25 years and just see how far they get. 

The fact is, the so-called "blue" states subsidize the so-called "red" states to a large degree. 


I totally agree, which is why I'm mostly Libertarian.  I prefer that the federal government is minimized, so that the "welfare queens" like Mississippi and Louisiana can decay enough that the rest of the country may actually side with the idea of letting them go.  I know that if the gap becomes big enough between the more productive states and the less productive ones, a much stronger economic argument can be made for involuntary secession.

In other words, why should states like Massachusetts have to subsidize states like Mississippi?  In my opinion, they shouldn't.  Every state should be responsible for itself and no one else.

But it's not just blue states that are productive.  Texas is very productive, and even certain states in the South contribute a lot economically, like my state of NC and Florida.  Other red states like Arizona and Colorado contribute a lot as well.

My argument is that we should let all the poorest states fend for themselves, because why should my tax money go to states I have no connection to?  I'd rather pay more in taxes to my own state government than have to subsidize the poor of Louisiana, for example.

The only reason I do not favor statheood for Puerto Rico is because our country is on the way down.  Our economy-- terms of real people, real industry, real money---is shrinking, not expanding.  In 1910 or even 1950, we might have been able to absorb Puerto Rico.  No longer.  Our infrastructure is coming apart at the seams as it is.

Citizens of Puerto Rico are entitled to some social welfare benefits while they reside there, but less than state citizens, and the social welfare state for the states is a joke.  There's not much of a social safety net in the U.S., which indeed makes for a more nervous nation. 


In a way, yes.  In other ways, no.

It's not that our country is falling apart everywhere, it's just that certain areas are falling apart.  Cities like Baltimore, Detroit, and Oakland are all economically decaying, while other cities like Phoenix, San Jose, Las Vegas, Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami are all growing rapidly.

I think America could handle adding Puerto Rico, but it would provide us very few benefits by doing so.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/02/07 at 9:45 pm


I totally agree, which is why I'm mostly Libertarian.  I prefer that the federal government is minimized, so that the "welfare queens" like Mississippi and Louisiana can decay enough that the rest of the country may actually side with the idea of letting them go.  I know that if the gap becomes big enough between the more productive states and the less productive ones, a much stronger economic argument can be made for involuntary secession.

In other words, why should states like Massachusetts have to subsidize states like Mississippi?  In my opinion, they shouldn't.  Every state should be responsible for itself and no one else.

But it's not just blue states that are productive.  Texas is very productive, and even certain states in the South contribute a lot economically, like my state of NC and Florida.  Other red states like Arizona and Colorado contribute a lot as well.

My argument is that we should let all the poorest states fend for themselves, because why should my tax money go to states I have no connection to?  I'd rather pay more in taxes to my own state government than have to subsidize the poor of Louisiana, for example.



  Oh wow...

  I've never heard it explained in this way before.  Let me think on this one for awhile...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/02/07 at 10:13 pm


  Oh wow...

  I've never heard it explained in this way before.  Let me think on this one for awhile...


Ditto.

It's a ruthless.. but logical argument.

Living on the border of one of the bluest states, Illinois.. and one of the reddest states, Missouri.. I can see a lot of the differences. In Illinois, our roads are excellent, all our children have health insurance and as a state we have the 17th largest economy in the world, ahead of countries like Norway, Switzerland, South Africa and Belgium.. then I look at Missouri and see an education system in tatters, roads and public transport shot to hell and one of the lowest rates of health insurance coverage in the country. It does make me wonder why I should have to subsidize this.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 10:23 pm


Ditto.

It's a ruthless.. but logical argument.

Living on the border of one of the bluest states, Illinois.. and one of the reddest states, Missouri.. I can see a lot of the differences. In Illinois, our roads are excellent, all our children have health insurance and as a state we have the 17th largest economy in the world, ahead of countries like Norway, Switzerland, South Africa and Belgium.. then I look at Missouri and see an education system in tatters, roads and public transport shot to hell and one of the lowest rates of health insurance coverage in the country. It does make me wonder why I should have to subsidize this.


My theory is that there is also a more positive possibility involved in this as well.

It's not the most likely scenario, but once these states start realizing that the others aren't propping them up anymore, they might start emulating the successful states in policies.  My feelings on this are very Darwinist.  The smart and the strong survive in terms of policy.  Those who make bad policy choices should have to suffer the consequences of a failing economy.

Basically, I prefer to live in a world where wisdom decides your fate far more than anything else -- including compassion.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/02/07 at 10:26 pm


My theory is that there is also a more positive possibility involved in this as well.

It's not the most likely scenario, but once these states start realizing that the others aren't propping them up anymore, they might start emulating the successful states in policies.  My feelings on this are very Darwinist.  The smart and the strong survive in terms of policy.  Those who make bad policy choices should have to suffer the consequences of a failing economy.

Basically, I prefer to live in a world where wisdom decides your fate far more than anything else -- including compassion.


Which does make sense, don't get me wrong, going on the assumption that those that fail would want to emulate those that succeed it's an excellent idea. The problem is, that when you look at the poorest states, they are generally the bible thumping states, I wouldn't put it past the majority of their citizens to believe "God will save us!" and starve to death.  ;D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 10:28 pm


Which does make sense, don't get me wrong, going on the assumption that those that fail would want to emulate those that succeed it's an excellent idea. The problem is, that when you look at the poorest states, they are generally the bible thumping states, I wouldn't put it past the majority of their citizens to believe "God will save us!" and starve to death.  ;D


*puts on flame suit*  You say that like it's a bad thing...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/02/07 at 10:51 pm


Ditto.

It's a ruthless.. but logical argument.

Living on the border of one of the bluest states, Illinois.. and one of the reddest states, Missouri.. I can see a lot of the differences. In Illinois, our roads are excellent, all our children have health insurance and as a state we have the 17th largest economy in the world, ahead of countries like Norway, Switzerland, South Africa and Belgium.. then I look at Missouri and see an education system in tatters, roads and public transport shot to hell and one of the lowest rates of health insurance coverage in the country. It does make me wonder why I should have to subsidize this.


   
   Oh crap, now you're making me doubt my principles.  Make the war cry, "The South will rise again," come true?  Some experiments don't need to be repeated.  Maybe it would be okay if they take Texas with them again.  Making it the third time Texas secedes from its parent country...

   Seriously, it does make sense.  "Involuntary secession" threw me for a loop.  I wonder if this notion has passed the scuttlebutt stage...

   I'll think on it some more...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/02/07 at 11:02 pm


*puts on flame suit*  You say that like it's a bad thing...


Putting my serious hat on, I will say that under no circumstances should we allow citizens of our country to starve to death...

... but....

to steal a quote from cool hand luke..

"Some men, you just can't reach."

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/02/07 at 11:11 pm


My theory is that there is also a more positive possibility involved in this as well.

It's not the most likely scenario, but once these states start realizing that the others aren't propping them up anymore, they might start emulating the successful states in policies.  My feelings on this are very Darwinist.  The smart and the strong survive in terms of policy.  Those who make bad policy choices should have to suffer the consequences of a failing economy.

Basically, I prefer to live in a world where wisdom decides your fate far more than anything else -- including compassion.


  So you would welcome the blue states cutting off funding to the red?  I'd kind of like it myself, to tell the truth, but I've got sort of a sadistic streak when it comes to geopolitics.  The ironic justice of watching all those red-state economies just collapsing in on themselves as the political bodies which define them shrivel and evaporate is very appealing.  I’ve always been a bit of a fiscal conservative anyhow, and cutting off the welfare queens in the middle of the nation is something that’d put a big grin on my face go ;) ...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/02/07 at 11:38 pm


   So you would welcome the blue states cutting off funding to the red?  I'd kind of like it myself, to tell the truth, but I've got sort of a sadistic streak when it comes to geopolitics.  The ironic justice of watching all those red-state economies just collapsing in on themselves as the political bodies which define them shrivel and evaporate is very appealing.  I’ve always been a bit of a fiscal conservative anyhow, and cutting off the welfare queens in the middle of the nation is something that’d put a big grin on my face go ;) ...




The easiest way for me to sum it up is that the fiscal conservatives know what they are doing, while the fiscal liberals and social conservatives don't.  For the most part, the social liberals are on par with the fiscal conservatives.

It's not an actual red state/blue state divide but rather a business-oriented one.  Some states enact very successful business friendly policies like California and Texas.  Others aren't very good at it, like the Deep South.  Alabama is starting to improve economically, but nearby Louisiana and Mississippi make up much of the dead weight in our economy.

The way I see it, the growth in this country is proof of what policies work and which ones don't.  Certain states in the South like NC, Florida, and Georgia are leading the pack in terms of growth, while others are falling behind.  The same goes for the West.  Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado are growing like crazy, while New Mexico stagnates.

In the meantime, states like New York, Michigan, and Rhode Island are losing people because of the high cost of living in those areas due to high taxes.  What makes up for their losses in population are their already existing economic capabilities.  My theory is that these states have already reached their optimum production levels, so with continual population growth, it is only natural for people to settle in less expensive areas as jobs move to these regions due to lower taxes.

In the very distant future, we may even see a time when places like Louisiana are booming, but it probably won't happen until things get so crowded everywhere else.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/03/07 at 2:31 am


I totally agree, which is why I'm mostly Libertarian.  I prefer that the federal government is minimized, so that the "welfare queens" like Mississippi and Louisiana can decay enough that the rest of the country may actually side with the idea of letting them go.  I know that if the gap becomes big enough between the more productive states and the less productive ones, a much stronger economic argument can be made for involuntary secession.

In other words, why should states like Massachusetts have to subsidize states like Mississippi?  In my opinion, they shouldn't.  Every state should be responsible for itself and no one else.

But it's not just blue states that are productive.  Texas is very productive, and even certain states in the South contribute a lot economically, like my state of NC and Florida.  Other red states like Arizona and Colorado contribute a lot as well.

My argument is that we should let all the poorest states fend for themselves, because why should my tax money go to states I have no connection to?  I'd rather pay more in taxes to my own state government than have to subsidize the poor of Louisiana, for example.

I'm not griping about wealthier states subsidizing poorer ones.  I'm just saying these good old boys listening to Limbaugh and Coulter and thinking they're the pioneering sodbusters of the Heartland ought to do a reality check and stop acting like a 13-year-old giving his mom and dad the finger! We are the United States.  We should stay united.  We cannot afford to let places like Mississippi and North Dakota rot away.  We all do better when we all do better.  I would like to see the poor states be able to raise their standards of living and contribute more to the overall economy.  If anything, they need more federal investment, not less.


It's not that our country is falling apart everywhere, it's just that certain areas are falling apart.  Cities like Baltimore, Detroit, and Oakland are all economically decaying, while other cities like Phoenix, San Jose, Las Vegas, Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami are all growing rapidly.



You mention rapid growth in the Southwest.  I've got a problem with this.  Well, it's not exactly my problem, it's theirs.  Notice something about places like Las Vegas, Phoenix, and L.A.?  It's a desert!  There's no frikkin' water there.   It all has to be imported.  Sure they diverted the Colorado River but in time, they're gonna run dry.  Too little water, too many people.  It's going to happen.  Even if it happens in 100 years when we, our children, and even our grandchildren are dead, it's still gonna happen.  100 years is a blip in human history.  All over the world you find ruins of civilizations now gone because there was no water left. 
::)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 12/03/07 at 2:44 pm

When it comes to other cultures, past or present, IMHO, it deals with some form of xenophobia, most likely.

Americans, as a country, like to feel as if they are the trend-setters.
When other cultures come into play, they are hesitant because it introduces concepts that they did not originally think of.

America also likes to claim it is the "melting pot" of the world.
They want to study things, and try to integrate them into American culture, without using what is termed as "vulgar" or "barbaric".

Never mind that they have their own methods of barbarism!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/03/07 at 3:30 pm


I totally agree, which is why I'm mostly Libertarian.  I prefer that the federal government is minimized, so that the "welfare queens" like Mississippi and Louisiana can decay enough that the rest of the country may actually side with the idea of letting them go.  I know that if the gap becomes big enough between the more productive states and the less productive ones, a much stronger economic argument can be made for involuntary secession.

In other words, why should states like Massachusetts have to subsidize states like Mississippi?  In my opinion, they shouldn't.  Every state should be responsible for itself and no one else.

...

My argument is that we should let all the poorest states fend for themselves, because why should my tax money go to states I have no connection to?  I'd rather pay more in taxes to my own state government than have to subsidize the poor of Louisiana, for example.


Well, I mean Jesus. You might as well have 50 separate countries. Wealth-sharing is what federal states are about. 50 years ago, Arizona was a wasteland, and they were the ones getting welfare. I wouldn't care much if a state seceded willingly with a 2/3 or even 3/4 majority. I don't have any sentimental attachment to the US Government, so if some states want to secede, I suppose that's their business. But there's no such thing as involuntary secession. The US has a Constitution, and like it or not, there is no provision in there for state expulsion last I checked.

I mistrust secessionist movements anywhere these days, even if they seem legit. Because truly, what do I know about the situation in Catalonia, the Basque country, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Taiwan, Tibet etc... Not much, because I don't live there. And finally, I can quickly draw parallels between these movements and the Quebec separatist movement right here in my own back yard. How can I so vehemently oppose Quebec secession all while supporting Catalan independence or something like that? Can't. It's none of my business.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/03/07 at 6:46 pm


I'm not griping about wealthier states subsidizing poorer ones.  I'm just saying these good old boys listening to Limbaugh and Coulter and thinking they're the pioneering sodbusters of the Heartland ought to do a reality check and stop acting like a 13-year-old giving his mom and dad the finger! We are the United States.  We should stay united.  We cannot afford to let places like Mississippi and North Dakota rot away.  We all do better when we all do better.   I would like to see the poor states be able to raise their standards of living and contribute more to the overall economy.  If anything, they need more federal investment, not less.


I disagree.  See, I think people do best in smaller countries with smaller governments.  Most people would agree with you though.  I just don't place any personal loyalty in the concept of the states being united.  I think our united stance was initially an arbitrary choice that resulted from the lack of feasibility in running each state as a separate country back in the late 1700s.  Nowadays, borders are much more permeable due to transportation and technology.  As the EU shows us, multiple nations can effectively coordinate economic policy without being totally subject to one all-encompassing government.  I like the diversity of policy allowed by keeping each European nation autonomous, and by the same token, I think certain sections of the country should split up and become separate countries.

We're getting to the point that D.C. is about as out of touch with the rest of the nation that Rome was in reference to outlying territories in their empire.  There's a good reason why D.C. and Utah have little in common with each other culturally.  Why should they remain subject to the same federal government?

You mention rapid growth in the Southwest.  I've got a problem with this.  Well, it's not exactly my problem, it's theirs.  Notice something about places like Las Vegas, Phoenix, and L.A.?  It's a desert!  There's no frikkin' water there.   It all has to be imported.  Sure they diverted the Colorado River but in time, they're gonna run dry.  Too little water, too many people.  It's going to happen.  Even if it happens in 100 years when we, our children, and even our grandchildren are dead, it's still gonna happen.  100 years is a blip in human history.  All over the world you find ruins of civilizations now gone because there was no water left. 
::)


Good point, but we're making a lot of progress with desalination methods.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/03/07 at 6:52 pm


Well, I mean Jesus. You might as well have 50 separate countries. Wealth-sharing is what federal states are about. 50 years ago, Arizona was a wasteland, and they were the ones getting welfare. I wouldn't care much if a state seceded willingly with a 2/3 or even 3/4 majority. I don't have any sentimental attachment to the US Government, so if some states want to secede, I suppose that's their business. But there's no such thing as involuntary secession. The US has a Constitution, and like it or not, there is no provision in there for state expulsion last I checked.


There's no section of the Constitution preventing expulsion either.  If there isn't a specific law against something, that often means it can be done if the right law is written to support it.

I mistrust secessionist movements anywhere these days, even if they seem legit. Because truly, what do I know about the situation in Catalonia, the Basque country, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Taiwan, Tibet etc... Not much, because I don't live there. And finally, I can quickly draw parallels between these movements and the Quebec separatist movement right here in my own back yard. How can I so vehemently oppose Quebec secession all while supporting Catalan independence or something like that? Can't. It's none of my business.


I know what you mean, but I have to add that I support the Albertan secessionist movement.  They are essentially propping up the easternmost provinces like New Brunswick.  Why should they?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/03/07 at 7:30 pm


I disagree.  See, I think people do best in smaller countries with smaller governments. 


Heck, I think the human race screwed itself over when it evolved from hunter-gatherer tribes to this civilization thing, but that's anthropology not politics!

Most people would agree with you though.  I just don't place any personal loyalty in the concept of the states being united.  I think our united stance was initially an arbitrary choice that resulted from the lack of feasibility in running each state as a separate country back in the late 1700s.  Nowadays, borders are much more permeable due to transportation and technology.  As the EU shows us, multiple nations can effectively coordinate economic policy without being totally subject to one all-encompassing government.  I like the diversity of policy allowed by keeping each European nation autonomous, and by the same token, I think certain sections of the country should split up and become separate countries.
That's a libertarian point of view I don't agree with.  Inherent in "united" states is loyalty to one another as citizens for we, the people, are the fabric of the state.  I do agree that the United States is in serious trouble with its democracy.  How many states of our population and terratorial size have been "democracies"?  American is too big and has been so terribly mismanaged over the past generation that we are in crisis.  However, there is no geopolitically manageable way for the U.S. to split up into separate nations.  What states would want to go with what nations?  I can see California, Oregon, and Washington forming a functional nation, but what about Arizona and Nevada?  If I lived in either of those states, I'd much rather join California than a poor-ass mountain state nation.  Texas would want return to the glory days of the Republic of Tejas and wouldn't want carry the Deep South and Oklahoma.  There's enough poverty in Texas as it is.  Vermont used to be part of New York state.  I see the New England states joining New York, and Pennsylvania and New Jersey, sharing in the colonial heritage.  There you would have a gigantic bloc of wealth and power and if, say, Ohio and Maryland were excluded, they'd live in intimidating circumstances.  Perhaps New Brunswick would want to piggyback onto Maine because they're getting the shaft from Ottowa, but the Maritimes are the poorest region of Canada.  Culturally, they've got much in common with Maine, but the economic burden would not be feasible.  It's all kind of mind boggling to think about. 

We're getting to the point that D.C. is about as out of touch with the rest of the nation that Rome was in reference to outlying territories in their empire.  There's a good reason why D.C. and Utah have little in common with each other culturally.  Why should they remain subject to the same federal government?
Per the above, this is a good point.    We are still technically a republic whereas Rome was the capital city of an empire, but the vast territory and different cultures draw some similarites. 


Good point, but we're making a lot of progress with desalination methods.

You'd better!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/03/07 at 11:45 pm


I know what you mean, but I have to add that I support the Albertan secessionist movement.  They are essentially propping up the easternmost provinces like New Brunswick.  Why should they?


Ridiculous! My point exactly. What do you know about Alberta anyway, or the Canadian federal system? I know they don't teach that in schools down there. They aren't propping up sh*t!

The Alberta secessionist movement barely even exists first of all, and if they weren't rolling in oil at the moment, it wouldn't exist at all. The whopping majority of Albertans are loyal Canadians. Alberta is conservative, not libertarian.

Look back a few decades ago and you'd have seen a very different Alberta... one that was certainly getting more money from the federal government than it was paying in. It's only a matter of time before it happens again. Now they're paying some of that money back. And The Eastern Provinces, by which I presume you mean NB, PEI, NS, and Newfoundland/Labrador, were once an economic hotspot for many reasons and are now experiencing difficulties, but it's not like they are wastelands. Canada is a federation based on equalisation, collecting federal income taxes, and redistributing those resources according to need back to the provincial governments. The Eastern Provinces aren't what you would call wealthy, but they aren't dirt poor either.

Alberta, which is a fine province and I have nothing but love for it, isn't the only province which has been consistently getting back less than they pay in. 41 cents of every federal dollar comes from Ontario, for example, and Ontarians tend to be among the most patriotic Canadians.

Canadian provinces don't mind helping each other. Canada is, above all, a country. There are tiffs between provinces and regions, that's common. But the only secessionist movement in this era to have ever even come close to swaying the majority of a province's population is that of Quebec. I personally think that we need to go ahead and include the word 'indivisible' somewhere in the Constitution, but that would be a feat indeed. It would take at most a miracle, and at the very least some amazingly clever politics. If Harper could accomplish that, I would happily kiss that man's ass. But not bloody likely to happen.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/03/07 at 11:54 pm

A country in which the East and West hate one another! West British Canada and East French Canada, two different views entirely. How do you suppose the the country is "indivisible"? BTW My first husband was from a prominent Canadian family.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/04/07 at 10:15 am


A country in which the East and West hate one another! West British Canada and East French Canada, two different views entirely. How do you suppose the the country is "indivisible"? BTW My first husband was from a prominent Canadian family.


I didn't say it was indivisible, I said we should make it so, but that it would be next to impossible. But I tell you one thing, there have been a lot of attempts to break us up, but all have failed. 

Your first husband being from a 'prominent' Canadian family (whatever that means), it surprises me that you didn't know that the linguistic divide is not an East-West issue. French Canadians live in every province and territory, and so do English Canadians. But French Canada only encompasses the Province of Quebec, portions of Eastern Ontario, and Western New Brunswick. Everything east of a certain portion of NB is English. Which makes about 3 and 1/2 provinces not included in your idea of the East-West divide.

The English and French don't hate each other, I mean there are some who do, but they're a minority in both groups. We're better off at the moment than say, the Belgians with the Walloons and the Flemish. Since the failure of Quebec's 2nd referendum on separation (which I admit, was close but no cigar), most of that old chicanery has subsided and even Quebec separatists have begun to realise that it's not going to happen.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/04/07 at 1:10 pm

The Alberta secessionist movement?

No surprise.  Texas has a long-running secessionist movement, but nobody with the correct number of chromosomes pays it any mind.
:D


  Last I heard there was a Vermont secessionist movement, wonder what happened to that? 

The only one that looked like it might succeed was Quebec, and they can thank their lucky stars it didn't!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/04/07 at 6:08 pm


That's a libertarian point of view I don't agree with.  Inherent in "united" states is loyalty to one another as citizens for we, the people, are the fabric of the state.  I do agree that the United States is in serious trouble with its democracy.  How many states of our population and terratorial size have been "democracies"?  American is too big and has been so terribly mismanaged over the past generation that we are in crisis.  However, there is no geopolitically manageable way for the U.S. to split up into separate nations.  What states would want to go with what nations?  I can see California, Oregon, and Washington forming a functional nation, but what about Arizona and Nevada?  If I lived in either of those states, I'd much rather join California than a poor-ass mountain state nation.  Texas would want return to the glory days of the Republic of Tejas and wouldn't want carry the Deep South and Oklahoma.  There's enough poverty in Texas as it is.  Vermont used to be part of New York state.  I see the New England states joining New York, and Pennsylvania and New Jersey, sharing in the colonial heritage.  There you would have a gigantic bloc of wealth and power and if, say, Ohio and Maryland were excluded, they'd live in intimidating circumstances. 


One of the biggest problems with any modern idea of succession is that there are really no regions that are truely self-sufficient anymore.

For a perfect example, California could never really succede.  The majority of both their Water and Power come from other states.  And I doubt that Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, or the other areas they get these resources from would be as willing to be so kind if they were sold to an independent nation.

One of the things the Civil War did was to transform how people thought about our nation.  Prior to that, citizens tended to think of their home state first, and the nation as an entity second.  After that (and with the mass exodus to the West Coast that followed), ties to the home state faded, and people began to associate much more with the nation as a whole.

This is even more true now, because people move so much.  On average, 1 in 6 Americans moves to a new location every year.  Over an average life time, Americans move 11.6 times (half of those to a new state).  So ties to state mean much less then they did a century ago.

Myself, I have moved countless times in just the last 5 years.  From California to Alabama, then to New Mexico and now Texas.  And that does not even count the other states I have lived in over the years (Idaho, Oregon, Alaska, North Carolina, Connecticut).  Home for me has always been wherever I happen to be living at the time.  And I have no allegiance to any state, but to the nation itself.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/04/07 at 6:13 pm

The U.S Constitution does not allow for succession from the U.S. That is exactly what the civil war was over. Not the slave issue as is taught in school. The South states wanted to succeed from the Union, had they won then that would have given them the right. But the North won, therefore it is not permissible.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/04/07 at 8:16 pm


One of the biggest problems with any modern idea of succession is that there are really no regions that are truely self-sufficient anymore.

For a perfect example, California could never really succede.  The majority of both their Water and Power come from other states.  And I doubt that Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, or the other areas they get these resources from would be as willing to be so kind if they were sold to an independent nation.

One of the things the Civil War did was to transform how people thought about our nation.  Prior to that, citizens tended to think of their home state first, and the nation as an entity second.  After that (and with the mass exodus to the West Coast that followed), ties to the home state faded, and people began to associate much more with the nation as a whole.

This is even more true now, because people move so much.  On average, 1 in 6 Americans moves to a new location every year.  Over an average life time, Americans move 11.6 times (half of those to a new state).  So ties to state mean much less then they did a century ago.

Myself, I have moved countless times in just the last 5 years.  From California to Alabama, then to New Mexico and now Texas.  And that does not even count the other states I have lived in over the years (Idaho, Oregon, Alaska, North Carolina, Connecticut).  Home for me has always been wherever I happen to be living at the time.  And I have no allegiance to any state, but to the nation itself.

Absolutely.  Interdependency and mobility are a big part of the picture.  We're also no longer an agrarian society.  200 years ago people in New England hunkered down for the winter and went without whatever they couldn't preserve from the harvest.  Back then it was a luxury to eat oranges in January.  Now we're expected to have fresh fruits and vegetables all winter long.  Can you imagine the tariff wars with Florida and California?  That's just one example of the problems with secession nowadays.

Note the words "secede" and "suicide" have common etymologies!
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/secede

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/04/07 at 8:19 pm

Oops sorry, I had no clue that this was a MEN's board. You should put a disclaimer with it.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/04/07 at 8:20 pm


Oops sorry, I had no clue that this was a MEN's board. You should put a disclaimer with it.

Beg pard? Where's this coming from?
???

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/04/07 at 8:25 pm

I can't help but notice that most of my posts are getting studiously ignored. Just thought it had something to do with the fact the other posters that I have seen on here are male and, well, I am not. I know some men tend to think that a woman getting involved in a political conversation is just kind of silly.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/04/07 at 10:17 pm

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly take gender into account when I reply.  There's just not enough time to respond to every salient point.  A lot of my posts don't get replies.  Perhaps they get read, but nobody chooses to respond to me.  Who knows why?  I've started threads on topics I think deserve lengthy discussion only to have them sink into oblivion without reply one.  On the other hand, I've started threads on a goofy thought I was having at one moment and they get 100 replies. 

I wouldn't take it personally.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/04/07 at 11:03 pm


I can't help but notice that most of my posts are getting studiously ignored. Just thought it had something to do with the fact the other posters that I have seen on here are male and, well, I am not. I know some men tend to think that a woman getting involved in a political conversation is just kind of silly.


Trust me, there is nothing even remotely like this with me.

Because of my military commitments, I do not log on nearly as often as I used to.  And when I do find a topic that interests me, I normally read the original post, then forward to the last page.  I then look backwards, normally responding to the first post that catches my eye.

In this case, it happened to be Maxwell's.  Of course, the two of us have been both opponants and supporters in here for years.  People would probably wonder if I had "gone soft" if I did not respond to something he had written.  :D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/04/07 at 11:10 pm

Well my apologies for assuming that my gender had something to do with me getting ignored. I just feel I have some validity as well.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/05/07 at 5:46 am



Well my apologies for assuming that my gender had something to do with me getting ignored. I just feel I have some validity as well.




There are times I have felt the same way.  Sometimes there will be long running discussions on specific points between two or three posters and they focus on their own discussions, but I find they do read the other posts involved at the same time.  I tend to write short posts, but others can go on for paragraphs.  I don't think it is a gender thing as much as how much time and content you want to put into it.  Of course these things could be cut short if they would only agree to defer to my being right in all things.

If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him is he still wrong?    

Yes    ;)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: philbo on 12/05/07 at 9:42 am


If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him is he still wrong?    

Yes    ;)

Of course he is: he's in the middle of the forest speaking, and not finishing off the DIY  ;)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 12/05/07 at 12:52 pm



  Last I heard there was a Vermont secessionist movement, wonder what happened to that? 




You mean all both people? Yeah, there were a few who really wanted this to happen but the majority considered it a joke.


Cat

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/05/07 at 2:40 pm



You mean all both people? Yeah, there were a few who really wanted this to happen but the majority considered it a joke.


Cat


I think it got up to 13% last year. Not anywhere near a majority, but up from 8% the previous polling.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/05/07 at 2:57 pm


The U.S Constitution does not allow for succession from the U.S. That is exactly what the civil war was over. Not the slave issue as is taught in school. The South states wanted to succeed from the Union, had they won then that would have given them the right. But the North won, therefore it is not permissible.


Here is the point that I had stated previously. This is LAW. You can have all the movements you want, it will never come to be!

Quote from: MaxwellSmart on 04 December 2007, 13:10:04

Last I heard there was a Vermont secessionist movement, wonder what happened to that?

It is like saying that Parlament for other countries is malarkey and has no right to control anything and the individual Provence's can decide their own laws regardless of what Parlament has to say. So again as long as there is a United States Government and people, succession can never happen.

I detest opinions that have no research behind them! If you state something as fact, be willing to back it up! God Bless America!The Land Of Milk and Honey!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/05/07 at 10:48 pm


Here is the point that I had stated previously. This is LAW. You can have all the movements you want, it will never come to be!

Quote from: MaxwellSmart on 04 December 2007, 13:10:04

Last I heard there was a Vermont secessionist movement, wonder what happened to that?

It is like saying that Parlament for other countries is malarkey and has no right to control anything and the individual Provence's can decide their own laws regardless of what Parlament has to say. So again as long as there is a United States Government and people, succession can never happen.

I detest opinions that have no research behind them! If you state something as fact, be willing to back it up! God Bless America!The Land Of Milk and Honey!




   Any state can secede from the union.  Not certain on the specifics, each one has its own IIRC, but its a fundamental right for the states to secede if they see fit...

   I understand the reasons for not wanting a state to secede.  You want to keep the nation together.  But isn't it somewhat against our national character, our focus on freedom and all that, to not allow a state to jump ship if they want to..?

   Update:  Seems a state must have the consent of the other states (ALL the others?) to secede. 

  Texas v. White.  This case law also adresses the earlier question of involuntary expulsion from the union.  Interesting...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/05/07 at 11:36 pm

The Interesting Court Case of
Texas v. White

Read how secession was finally declared illegal


In a legal examination of the right of secession no case has been thrown in our faces as Texas v. White. With this case the Supreme Court of the United States declared secession was not constitutional
.


Not Constitutional. Meaning it is not allowed in the constitution.

That was exactly what the civil war was fought over. The North won the war and it was declared unconstitutional to secede from the union. So if it is to happen, then we need to over throw our Government and destroy the constitution, which is our Government. There is no higher form of Government in the U.S then the United States Constitution. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/06/07 at 12:02 am


The Interesting Court Case of
Texas v. White

Read how secession was finally declared illegal


In a legal examination of the right of secession no case has been thrown in our faces as Texas v. White. With this case the Supreme Court of the United States declared secession was not constitutional
.


Not Constitutional. Meaning it is not allowed in the constitution.

That was exactly what the civil war was fought over. The North won the war and it was declared unconstitutional to secede from the union. So if it is to happen, then we need to over throw our Government and destroy the constitution, which is our Government. There is no higher form of Government in the U.S then the United States Constitution. 


  Texas v. White says that unilateral secession is unconstitutional...

 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/06/07 at 12:16 am

If a state really wanted to, it could probably negotiate secession these days. It would take a referendum with an overwhelming majority of people voting in favour of it, first off. Then it would be the mandate of the state's government to negotiate with the federal government the terms of secession. But all this is speculation. There is no state that wants to separate. At least, no state secessionist movement is strong enough to convince 3/4 of the state of it.

The only secessionist movement in North America with any real support is here in Quebec, and even they will probably never garner the support they would need to actually effect separation. But they have enough support to see the pro-separation party elected to lead the provincial government a handful of times, and they risk doing it again one of these days. But a political party can get elected to head the government with just over a third of the vote, but it would take more than double that percentage to vote in favour of separation before the federal Government of Canada would even begin negotiations. This is next to impossible for them to achieve.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/06/07 at 12:23 am


If a state really wanted to, it could probably negotiate secession these days. It would take a referendum with an overwhelming majority of people voting in favour of it, first off. Then it would be the mandate of the state's government to negotiate with the federal government the terms of secession. But all this is speculation. There is no state that wants to separate. At least, no state secessionist movement is strong enough to convince 3/4 of the state of it.

The only secessionist movement in North America with any real support is here in Quebec, and even they will probably never garner the support they would need to actually effect separation. But they have enough support to see the pro-separation party elected to lead the provincial government a handful of times, and they risk doing it again one of these days. But a political party can get elected to head the government with just over a third of the vote, but it would take more than double that percentage to vote in favour of separation before the federal Government of Canada would even begin negotiations. This is next to impossible for them to achieve.


  Apparently the constitution closes the door on unilateral secession (Texas v. White) but leaves it cracked open by means of the ammendment process...

  Personally, I want the constitution f***ed with as little as possible...

  So yeah, it is not impossible to secede, but it would be an extremely hard fight...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/06/07 at 12:34 am


   Apparently the constitution closes the door on unilateral secession (Texas v. White) but leaves it cracked open by means of the ammendment process...

   Personally, I want the constitution f***ed with as little as possible...

   So yeah, it is not impossible to secede, but it would be an extremely hard fight...


That is correct.
As well as the point that if any state was able to secede from the nation, it would not get any of the funds of the U.S.
Their programs would have to support themselves, such as schools and etc..
They would also have to form their own Federal Government, which is no easy feat. Our Government started on Christmas Day 1066. Granted it was in it's infancy at that time, the major part that separates us from the other nations was a unique idea that had never been done before. Never before had a piece of paper been the highest form of Government. That was the first and a few nations have duplicated it since.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/06/07 at 12:47 am


That is correct.
As well as the point that if any state was able to secede from the nation, it would not get any of the funds of the U.S.
Their programs would have to support themselves, such as schools and etc..
They would also have to form their own Federal Government, which is no easy feat. Our Government started on Christmas Day 1066. Granted it was in it's infancy at that time, the major part that separates us from the other nations was a unique idea that had never been done before. Never before had a piece of paper been the highest form of Government. That was the first and a few nations have duplicated it since.


   What a neat post..! 

   Maybe even earlier than Hastings.  Maybe the 1215 Magna Carta...

   I was going to say a few pages back, when the involuntary secession came up, that what we saved in federal funding we'd probably break even with in foreign aid because Americans don't let people die of starvation, frostbite or appendicitis...

   So, if you're pondering secession better make sure you have all your ducks beak to tail...

  Earlier than Hastings?!  What am I talking about..?! :P

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/06/07 at 12:59 am

The form of Government that we have has worked for us and other nations; however, there are nations where it just won't work. Such as in Iraq, our highest form of Government, as stated, is the Constitution will not work, because to them there is no higher form then the Koran. Nothing can be higher then that and that is exactly what we are trying to do to them.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 12/06/07 at 1:11 am


The form of Government that we have has worked for us and other nations; however, there are nations where it just won't work. Such as in Iraq, our highest form of Government, as stated, is the Constitution will not work, because to them there is no higher form then the Koran. Nothing can be higher then that and that is exactly what we are trying to do to them.


  You mean our nation building horsepucky in Iraq..?

  For all the bluster, Iraq was the most secular, pro-Western country in the Middle East.  Maybe not quite as pro-Western as Israel, but far more secular...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/06/07 at 7:24 pm


Ridiculous! My point exactly. What do you know about Alberta anyway, or the Canadian federal system? I know they don't teach that in schools down there. They aren't propping up sh*t!


No need to get personal.  I do my own research.  I prefer teaching myself these things to taking classes in them.  You'd be surprised what you can find on the internet, and how it helps you find primary sources that teachers often overlook.

More specifically, I know that the oil and gas boom has had a tremendous effect on the Canadian dollar's value that would be nonexistent if it weren't for Alberta's contribution to Canada's economy.  And yes, they are propping up quite a bit of your economy.  So is Saskatchewan with the uranium market.  A lot of your lumber resources are in the western provinces as well.

The Alberta secessionist movement barely even exists first of all, and if they weren't rolling in oil at the moment, it wouldn't exist at all. The whopping majority of Albertans are loyal Canadians. Alberta is conservative, not libertarian.

As the fiscal imbalance continues between provinces, you may see a gradual change of heart among Albertans.  There is a good reason Harper has often sided with the Bloc Quebecois.  He sympathizes with their cause due to the parallel he sees to Alberta's movement.

Look back a few decades ago and you'd have seen a very different Alberta... one that was certainly getting more money from the federal government than it was paying in. It's only a matter of time before it happens again. Now they're paying some of that money back. And The Eastern Provinces, by which I presume you mean NB, PEI, NS, and Newfoundland/Labrador, were once an economic hotspot for many reasons and are now experiencing difficulties, but it's not like they are wastelands. Canada is a federation based on equalisation, collecting federal income taxes, and redistributing those resources according to need back to the provincial governments. The Eastern Provinces aren't what you would call wealthy, but they aren't dirt poor either.

Agreed, but times change, and so do the rules oftentimes.

Alberta, which is a fine province and I have nothing but love for it, isn't the only province which has been consistently getting back less than they pay in. 41 cents of every federal dollar comes from Ontario, for example, and Ontarians tend to be among the most patriotic Canadians.

Canadian provinces don't mind helping each other. Canada is, above all, a country. There are tiffs between provinces and regions, that's common. But the only secessionist movement in this era to have ever even come close to swaying the majority of a province's population is that of Quebec. I personally think that we need to go ahead and include the word 'indivisible' somewhere in the Constitution, but that would be a feat indeed. It would take at most a miracle, and at the very least some amazingly clever politics. If Harper could accomplish that, I would happily kiss that man's ass. But not bloody likely to happen.


I would assume that it would be easy to be patriotic as an Ontarian.  They have the most political influence over Canadian government, with Ottawa obviously being in the province.  It's not that different from how states like Maryland, Virginia and Delaware have a lot more clout in our government in practical terms than our legislature officially acknowledges.

There is a problem of geography that both America and Canada face in a political sense.  Both of our countries are highly affected by sectionalism.  This happens to any country with a large land mass, but it is especially apparent in America.  We've tried to neutralize its effects through things like the Senate, but instead, it seems to have had the effect of downplaying urban votes and overplaying rural ones.

Either way, it is an inescapable fact of human nature that sectionalism plagues every large nation.  The more severe it gets, the worse the consequences become.  We had a Civil War because of it, and it looks like things may head in a similar direction within the next 100 years.

A much more peaceful resolution would be a voluntary move toward decentralization of authority.  This has the effect of letting highly sectional things like social policy fall to the states.  I'm a strong advocate of states' rights because I've seen what federal intervention does to hot button issues.  One of the only times I agreed with federal intervention was the ending of segregation, because there was no other feasible solution, but other than that, I think it is best to let local branches of government handle most problems.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: saver on 12/07/07 at 12:16 am

If there are complaints of mixing church and state, why do prisons let Muslim prosoners do the prayer rug kneel to Mecca?

Some ignorant people need to know that answer?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/07/07 at 12:33 am

Separation of Church and State? Where? I do not understand this question. The founding fathers of the United States did not desire there to be a separation of Church and State. The meetings of Congress start every time with a prayer. So how is that a separation of Church and State?
The Whole topic of that started in the 1960's when a atheist mother got upset because her son was given the option of standing out in the hallway while the his school class started the day with a prayer. Why has In God We Trust been written on our currency for the last 230 years if there is a separation of church and state?
We allow people to practice their religious beliefs. It does not matter which religion it is, as long as it does not harm anyone else.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Red Ant on 12/07/07 at 12:51 am


If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him is he still wrong?    

Yes    ;)


No. He's hunting.  ;D

Ant

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: AlexJ on 12/07/07 at 3:30 am

As an outsider to the whole problem with the USA's ignorance I think I have to leap to their defence. I'm British so when I turn on my TV or read magazines or play computer games I tend to be influenced by British Culture and the dominating global culture, which is mainly American. People forget how much they learn about other places from movies. This is the same everywhere. In the same way that Brits know very little about Lithuanians, Americans know very littte too, its just that the lithuanians know all about them from Movies and the media.
For Americans their TV has US programs and since that also is the global culture they don't pick up on stuff. I guess they know more about us Britons because we export loads of our programs over there.

Mind you it isn't all just accidental. I think since it was the first country to really try democracy and promote freedom it gained (and back then deserved) the opinion it was the best country in the world. Since the 19th Century Britain, Europe and the rest of the developed word caught up with their freedoms, and even surpassed them sometimes, but i think America still thinks itself the only "free" people. Probably cuz that's what Joe Sixpack's daddy told him.

The weird thing is the separation of church and state. Over there religion is not allowed in schools or government and whatnot and yet you have a society rife with fundamentalism and where Presidents can say "God told me to invade Iraq" and not get laughed at. In the UK the we have, technically, a government supported religion (Church of England), Bishops in one of our parliament houses (like senate or something), The head of state (the queen) is the head of the religion and even has as one of her titles "Defender of the Faith". We have all that and yet most people don't go to church, religion is waning, atheism is rising and cultures tends to get along, or at least keep out of each others way. Over here if anyone professes deep religious beliefs we get all uncomfortable, like with Tony Blair

Weird, huh?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/07/07 at 5:54 am


Separation of Church and State? Where? I do not understand this question. The founding fathers of the United States did not desire there to be a separation of Church and State. The meetings of Congress start every time with a prayer. So how is that a separation of Church and State?
The Whole topic of that started in the 1960's when a atheist mother got upset because her son was given the option of standing out in the hallway while the his school class started the day with a prayer. Why has In God We Trust been written on our currency for the last 230 years if there is a separation of church and state?
We allow people to practice their religious beliefs. It does not matter which religion it is, as long as it does not harm anyone else.


It is wise to be careful when invoking the name of the founding fathers of the US.  They did most absolutely desire the separation of church and state, they did not begin meetings of congress with opening prayers, and "In God We Trust" is not, and never would have been, put on their currency, and everyone went to work on Christmas, it was not a holiday.  Most of these changes occured until after the Civil War.  As a matter of fact, for all the strict constructionists out there, abortion and dissemination of information of birth control was legal until after the Civil War.  There is an argument that these measures were put in place more as a way of increasing the (native) population as opposed to any moral imperative.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/07/07 at 6:43 am


If there are complaints of mixing church and state, why do prisons let Muslim prosoners do the prayer rug kneel to Mecca?

Some ignorant people need to know that answer?


The separation of church and state goes to the issue of having one state sanctioned religion, and the prohibition or separate regulation of religions outside of that state sanctioned religion.  People are free to practice their religion without interference of the state.  It is ok for Muslim prisoners to have prayer rugs and kneel to Mecca just as it is for Christian prisoners to attend mass, which they do.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/07/07 at 12:36 pm

Sorry it is so long. But Where in the constitution is it?!
107th CONGRESS

2d Session

S. 2690

AMENDMENT S 2690 EAH

In the House of Representatives, U. S.,

October 8, 2002.

Resolved, That the bill from the Senate (S. 2690) entitled `An Act to reaffirm the reference to one Nation under God in the Pledge of Allegiance', do pass with the following AMENDMENT:

Strike out all after the enacting clause and insert:

SECTION 1. FINDINGS.

Congress finds the following:

(1) On November 11, 1620, prior to embarking for the shores of America, the Pilgrims signed the Mayflower Compact that declared: `Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith and honor of our King and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia,'.

(2) On July 4, 1776, America's Founding Fathers, after appealing to the `Laws of Nature, and of Nature's God' to justify their separation from Great Britain, then declared: `We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness'.

(3) In 1781, Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence and later the Nation's third President, in his work titled `Notes on the State of Virginia' wrote: `God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God. That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.'.

(4) On May 14, 1787, George Washington, as President of the Constitutional Convention, rose to admonish and exhort the delegates and declared: `If to please the people we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterward defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair; the event is in the hand of God!'.

(5) On July 21, 1789, on the same day that it approved the Establishment Clause concerning religion, the First Congress of the United States also passed the Northwest Ordinance, providing for a territorial government for lands northwest of the Ohio River, which declared: `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.'.

(6) On September 25, 1789, the First Congress unanimously approved a resolution calling on President George Washington to proclaim a National Day of Thanksgiving for the people of the United States by declaring, `a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a constitution of government for their safety and happiness.'.

(7) On November 19, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln delivered his Gettysburg Address on the site of the battle and declared: `It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain--that this Nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom--and that Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.'.

(8) On April 28, 1952, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952), in which school children were allowed to be excused from public schools for religious observances and education, Justice William O. Douglas, in writing for the Court stated: `The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Church and State. Rather, it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concern or union or dependency one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the State and religion would be aliens to each other--hostile, suspicious, and even unfriendly. Churches could not be required to pay even property taxes. Municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups. Policemen who helped parishioners into their places of worship would violate the Constitution. Prayers in our legislative halls; the appeals to the Almighty in the messages of the Chief Executive; the proclamations making Thanksgiving Day a holiday; `so help me God' in our courtroom oaths--these and all other references to the Almighty that run through our laws, our public rituals, our ceremonies would be flouting the First Amendment. A fastidious atheist or agnostic could even object to the supplication with which the Court opens each session: `God save the United States and this Honorable Court.'.

(9) On June 15, 1954, Congress passed and President Eisenhower signed into law a statute that was clearly consistent with the text and intent of the Constitution of the United States, that amended the Pledge of Allegiance to read: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.';

(10) On July 20, 1956, Congress proclaimed that the national motto of the United States is `In God We Trust', and that motto is inscribed above the main door of the Senate, behind the Chair of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and on the currency of the United States.

(11) On June 17, 1963, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), in which compulsory school prayer was held unconstitutional, Justices Goldberg and Harlan, concurring in the decision, stated: `But untutored devotion to the concept of neutrality can lead to invocation or approval of results which partake not simply of that noninterference and noninvolvement with the religious which the Constitution commands, but of a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular and a passive, or even active, hostility to the religious. Such results are not only not compelled by the Constitution, but, it seems to me, are prohibited by it. Neither government nor this Court can or should ignore the significance of the fact that a vast portion of our people believe in and worship God and that many of our legal, political, and personal values derive historically from religious teachings. Government must inevitably take cognizance of the existence of religion and, indeed, under certain circumstances the First Amendment may require that it do so.'.

(12) On March 5, 1984, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Lynch v. Donelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984), in which a city government's display of a nativity scene was held to be constitutional, Chief Justice Burger, writing for the Court, stated: `There is an unbroken history of official acknowledgment by all three branches of government of the role of religion in American life from at least 1789 . . . xamples of reference to our religious heritage are found in the statutorily prescribed national motto `In God We Trust' (36 U.S.C. 186), which Congress and the President mandated for our currency, see (31 U.S.C. 5112(d)(1) (1982 ed.)), and in the language `One Nation under God', as part of the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag. That pledge is recited by many thousands of public school children--and adults--every year . . . Art galleries supported by public revenues display religious paintings of the 15th and 16th centuries, predominantly inspired by one religious faith. The National Gallery in Washington, maintained with Government support, for example, has long exhibited masterpieces with religious messages, notably the Last Supper, and paintings depicting the Birth of Christ, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection, among many others with explicit Christian themes and messages. The very chamber in which oral arguments on this case were heard is decorated with a notable and permanent--not seasonal--symbol of religion: Moses with the Ten Commandments. Congress has long provided chapels in the Capitol for religious worship and meditation.'.

(13) On June 4, 1985, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38 (1985), in which a mandatory moment of silence to be used for meditation or voluntary prayer was held unconstitutional, Justice O'Connor, concurring in the judgment and addressing the contention that the Court's holding would render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because Congress amended it in 1954 to add the words `under God,' stated `In my view, the words `under God' in the Pledge, as codified at (36 U.S.C. 172), serve as an acknowledgment of religion with `the legitimate secular purposes of solemnizing public occasions, expressing confidence in the future.'.

(14) On November 20, 1992, the United States Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, in Sherman v. Community Consolidated School District 21, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992), held that a school district's policy for voluntary recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance including the words `under God' was constitutional.

(15) The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals erroneously held, in Newdow v. U.S. Congress, (9th Cir. June 26, 2002) that the Pledge of Allegiance's use of the express religious reference `under God' violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional.

(16) The erroneous rationale of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Newdow would lead to the absurd result that the Constitution's use of the express religious reference `Year of our Lord' in Article VII violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Constitution itself would be unconstitutional.

SEC. 2. ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 4 of title 4, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

`The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Pledge for decades.

SEC. 3. REAFFIRMING THAT GOD REMAINS IN OUR MOTTO.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 302 of title 36, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 302. National motto

`In God we trust' is the national motto.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall make no change in section 302, title 36, United States Code, but shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Motto for decades. Attest:

Clerk.


Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/07/07 at 1:11 pm


Sorry it is so long. But Where in the constitution is it?!
107th CONGRESS

2d Session

S. 2690

AMENDMENT S 2690 EAH

In the House of Representatives, U. S.,

October 8, 2002.

Resolved, That the bill from the Senate (S. 2690) entitled `An Act to reaffirm the reference to one Nation under God in the Pledge of Allegiance', do pass with the following AMENDMENT:

Strike out all after the enacting clause and insert:

SECTION 1. FINDINGS.

Congress finds the following:

(1) On November 11, 1620, prior to embarking for the shores of America, the Pilgrims signed the Mayflower Compact that declared: `Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith and honor of our King and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia,'.

(2) On July 4, 1776, America's Founding Fathers, after appealing to the `Laws of Nature, and of Nature's God' to justify their separation from Great Britain, then declared: `We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness'.

(3) In 1781, Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence and later the Nation's third President, in his work titled `Notes on the State of Virginia' wrote: `God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God. That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.'.

(4) On May 14, 1787, George Washington, as President of the Constitutional Convention, rose to admonish and exhort the delegates and declared: `If to please the people we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterward defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair; the event is in the hand of God!'.

(5) On July 21, 1789, on the same day that it approved the Establishment Clause concerning religion, the First Congress of the United States also passed the Northwest Ordinance, providing for a territorial government for lands northwest of the Ohio River, which declared: `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.'.

(6) On September 25, 1789, the First Congress unanimously approved a resolution calling on President George Washington to proclaim a National Day of Thanksgiving for the people of the United States by declaring, `a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a constitution of government for their safety and happiness.'.

(7) On November 19, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln delivered his Gettysburg Address on the site of the battle and declared: `It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain--that this Nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom--and that Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.'.

(8) On April 28, 1952, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952), in which school children were allowed to be excused from public schools for religious observances and education, Justice William O. Douglas, in writing for the Court stated: `The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Church and State. Rather, it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concern or union or dependency one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the State and religion would be aliens to each other--hostile, suspicious, and even unfriendly. Churches could not be required to pay even property taxes. Municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups. Policemen who helped parishioners into their places of worship would violate the Constitution. Prayers in our legislative halls; the appeals to the Almighty in the messages of the Chief Executive; the proclamations making Thanksgiving Day a holiday; `so help me God' in our courtroom oaths--these and all other references to the Almighty that run through our laws, our public rituals, our ceremonies would be flouting the First Amendment. A fastidious atheist or agnostic could even object to the supplication with which the Court opens each session: `God save the United States and this Honorable Court.'.

(9) On June 15, 1954, Congress passed and President Eisenhower signed into law a statute that was clearly consistent with the text and intent of the Constitution of the United States, that amended the Pledge of Allegiance to read: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.';

(10) On July 20, 1956, Congress proclaimed that the national motto of the United States is `In God We Trust', and that motto is inscribed above the main door of the Senate, behind the Chair of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and on the currency of the United States.

(11) On June 17, 1963, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), in which compulsory school prayer was held unconstitutional, Justices Goldberg and Harlan, concurring in the decision, stated: `But untutored devotion to the concept of neutrality can lead to invocation or approval of results which partake not simply of that noninterference and noninvolvement with the religious which the Constitution commands, but of a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular and a passive, or even active, hostility to the religious. Such results are not only not compelled by the Constitution, but, it seems to me, are prohibited by it. Neither government nor this Court can or should ignore the significance of the fact that a vast portion of our people believe in and worship God and that many of our legal, political, and personal values derive historically from religious teachings. Government must inevitably take cognizance of the existence of religion and, indeed, under certain circumstances the First Amendment may require that it do so.'.

(12) On March 5, 1984, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Lynch v. Donelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984), in which a city government's display of a nativity scene was held to be constitutional, Chief Justice Burger, writing for the Court, stated: `There is an unbroken history of official acknowledgment by all three branches of government of the role of religion in American life from at least 1789 . . . xamples of reference to our religious heritage are found in the statutorily prescribed national motto `In God We Trust' (36 U.S.C. 186), which Congress and the President mandated for our currency, see (31 U.S.C. 5112(d)(1) (1982 ed.)), and in the language `One Nation under God', as part of the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag. That pledge is recited by many thousands of public school children--and adults--every year . . . Art galleries supported by public revenues display religious paintings of the 15th and 16th centuries, predominantly inspired by one religious faith. The National Gallery in Washington, maintained with Government support, for example, has long exhibited masterpieces with religious messages, notably the Last Supper, and paintings depicting the Birth of Christ, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection, among many others with explicit Christian themes and messages. The very chamber in which oral arguments on this case were heard is decorated with a notable and permanent--not seasonal--symbol of religion: Moses with the Ten Commandments. Congress has long provided chapels in the Capitol for religious worship and meditation.'.

(13) On June 4, 1985, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38 (1985), in which a mandatory moment of silence to be used for meditation or voluntary prayer was held unconstitutional, Justice O'Connor, concurring in the judgment and addressing the contention that the Court's holding would render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because Congress amended it in 1954 to add the words `under God,' stated `In my view, the words `under God' in the Pledge, as codified at (36 U.S.C. 172), serve as an acknowledgment of religion with `the legitimate secular purposes of solemnizing public occasions, expressing confidence in the future.'.

(14) On November 20, 1992, the United States Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, in Sherman v. Community Consolidated School District 21, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992), held that a school district's policy for voluntary recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance including the words `under God' was constitutional.

(15) The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals erroneously held, in Newdow v. U.S. Congress, (9th Cir. June 26, 2002) that the Pledge of Allegiance's use of the express religious reference `under God' violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional.

(16) The erroneous rationale of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Newdow would lead to the absurd result that the Constitution's use of the express religious reference `Year of our Lord' in Article VII violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Constitution itself would be unconstitutional.

SEC. 2. ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 4 of title 4, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

`The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Pledge for decades.

SEC. 3. REAFFIRMING THAT GOD REMAINS IN OUR MOTTO.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 302 of title 36, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 302. National motto

`In God we trust' is the national motto.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall make no change in section 302, title 36, United States Code, but shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Motto for decades. Attest:

Clerk.





First anything after about 1800 will exclude the founding fathers, so any decisions above would have to be excluded for the sake of this argument, all of them being just yaddayaddayadda.  The pilgrims are not founding fathers, they were long dead and buried before this nation was founded, and a good thing, too. They were a religious cult that did not believe in freedom of religion, well freedom of anything,  and were great for burning people at the stake and banishing them for not following their own particular brand of religion.

If you actually study the founding fathers, instead of rehashing, you will find most of them talked a good game in public. Their injection of  God into a conversation and writings was more a habit and style. The most famous of the founding fathers spoke or wrote God, but rarely practiced religion which is one of the reasons they were so concerned about the state controlling ones private beliefs.  Jefferson, of course, a well known  hypocrite in more than this area, was not then, and is not now, considered religious at all. Washington almost never attended church, Adams was a Unitarian, and on and on.

Then there is the 1st Amendment

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

And Jeffersons words in a letter of 1802

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

They all spoke in terms of God, most, not all, believed in God in there own way, they also believed that the practice of religion should be a private matter, not public intrusion.

As I pointed above, the changes evolved after the Civil War.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/07/07 at 1:17 pm

oops. beat me to it. first amendment. making the government an arm of christian religion is the same as "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. which i think would also extend to protection of those like me who choose not to worship at all. once the government starts engaging endorsing a particular religious denomination, america's done. it's exactly what we declared independence to get away from: the religious government in england.

of course, as we've learned, since bush took office the sixth amendment is the only one left. wasn't that the one? about having to garrison troops in private homes?

the idea of fusing church and state scares the hell out of me. it's exactly how we'd get a christian taliban in the US. of all the things i think are worth opposing in the conservative movement, the vociferous desire to make our elected goverment a service of Jesus Christ Your Lord is the most terrifying.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/07/07 at 1:20 pm


oops. beat me to it. first amendment. making the government an arm of christian religion is the same as "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. which i think would also extend to protection of those like me who choose not to worship at all. once the government starts engaging endorsing a particular religious denomination, america's done. it's exactly what we declared independence to get away from: the religious government in england.

of course, as we've learned, since bush took office the sixth amendment is the only one left. wasn't that the one? about having to garrison troops in private homes?

the idea of fusing church and state scares the hell out of me. it's exactly how we'd get a christian taliban in the US. of all the things i think are worth opposing in the conservative movement, the vociferous desire to make our elected government a service of Jesus Christ Your Lord is the most terrifying.


Can't karma twice, I owe you one  ;)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/07/07 at 1:49 pm


Can't karma twice, I owe you one  ;)
:)

you might dig douglas adams being quite quite clever on the psychology of religion. ironically, it's all a way of apprehending the effects of evolutionary development from a local perspective.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hDC_NcihiV8

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/07/07 at 3:52 pm


oops. beat me to it. first amendment. making the government an arm of christian religion is the same as "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. which i think would also extend to protection of those like me who choose not to worship at all. once the government starts engaging endorsing a particular religious denomination, america's done. it's exactly what we declared independence to get away from: the religious government in england.

of course, as we've learned, since bush took office the sixth amendment is the only one left. wasn't that the one? about having to garrison troops in private homes?

the idea of fusing church and state scares the hell out of me. it's exactly how we'd get a christian taliban in the US. of all the things i think are worth opposing in the conservative movement, the vociferous desire to make our elected goverment a service of Jesus Christ Your Lord is the most terrifying.


Nail On the head!

The very prospect of the Government and the Church coming together frightens me more than anything imaginable. Goodbye civil liberties, goodbye free expression, goodbye freedom of speech. Hello 15th century.
The Christian faith as a whole is one of the most dangerous institutions to have ever blighted the face of the planet, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, none of them killed anywhere near as many as the various Pope's and Protestant Fanatics.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 12/07/07 at 4:14 pm

^ That's organized religion though, and the so-called religious "leaders" exacting their will upon the masses.  I doubt that your run-of-the-mill Godfearing Christian would actually go off slitting their Muslim neighbors' throats :) 

Maybe if we did away with the organizations of religion and just let people worship however they wanted...nah, that's a bad idea.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Jessica on 12/07/07 at 5:07 pm


If there are complaints of mixing church and state, why do prisons let Muslim prosoners do the prayer rug kneel to Mecca?

Some ignorant people need to know that answer?


That's like asking why they hold church services every Sunday in prison and why they have chaplains who visit with the prisoners. ::)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Reynolds1863 on 12/07/07 at 5:17 pm


Sorry it is so long. But Where in the constitution is it?!
107th CONGRESS

2d Session

S. 2690

AMENDMENT S 2690 EAH

In the House of Representatives, U. S.,

October 8, 2002.

Resolved, That the bill from the Senate (S. 2690) entitled `An Act to reaffirm the reference to one Nation under God in the Pledge of Allegiance', do pass with the following AMENDMENT:

Strike out all after the enacting clause and insert:

SECTION 1. FINDINGS.

Congress finds the following:

(1) On November 11, 1620, prior to embarking for the shores of America, the Pilgrims signed the Mayflower Compact that declared: `Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith and honor of our King and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia,'.

(2) On July 4, 1776, America's Founding Fathers, after appealing to the `Laws of Nature, and of Nature's God' to justify their separation from Great Britain, then declared: `We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness'.

(3) In 1781, Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence and later the Nation's third President, in his work titled `Notes on the State of Virginia' wrote: `God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God. That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.'.

(4) On May 14, 1787, George Washington, as President of the Constitutional Convention, rose to admonish and exhort the delegates and declared: `If to please the people we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterward defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair; the event is in the hand of God!'.

(5) On July 21, 1789, on the same day that it approved the Establishment Clause concerning religion, the First Congress of the United States also passed the Northwest Ordinance, providing for a territorial government for lands northwest of the Ohio River, which declared: `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.'.

(6) On September 25, 1789, the First Congress unanimously approved a resolution calling on President George Washington to proclaim a National Day of Thanksgiving for the people of the United States by declaring, `a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a constitution of government for their safety and happiness.'.

(7) On November 19, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln delivered his Gettysburg Address on the site of the battle and declared: `It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain--that this Nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom--and that Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.'.

(8) On April 28, 1952, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952), in which school children were allowed to be excused from public schools for religious observances and education, Justice William O. Douglas, in writing for the Court stated: `The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Church and State. Rather, it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concern or union or dependency one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the State and religion would be aliens to each other--hostile, suspicious, and even unfriendly. Churches could not be required to pay even property taxes. Municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups. Policemen who helped parishioners into their places of worship would violate the Constitution. Prayers in our legislative halls; the appeals to the Almighty in the messages of the Chief Executive; the proclamations making Thanksgiving Day a holiday; `so help me God' in our courtroom oaths--these and all other references to the Almighty that run through our laws, our public rituals, our ceremonies would be flouting the First Amendment. A fastidious atheist or agnostic could even object to the supplication with which the Court opens each session: `God save the United States and this Honorable Court.'.

(9) On June 15, 1954, Congress passed and President Eisenhower signed into law a statute that was clearly consistent with the text and intent of the Constitution of the United States, that amended the Pledge of Allegiance to read: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.';

(10) On July 20, 1956, Congress proclaimed that the national motto of the United States is `In God We Trust', and that motto is inscribed above the main door of the Senate, behind the Chair of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and on the currency of the United States.

(11) On June 17, 1963, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), in which compulsory school prayer was held unconstitutional, Justices Goldberg and Harlan, concurring in the decision, stated: `But untutored devotion to the concept of neutrality can lead to invocation or approval of results which partake not simply of that noninterference and noninvolvement with the religious which the Constitution commands, but of a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular and a passive, or even active, hostility to the religious. Such results are not only not compelled by the Constitution, but, it seems to me, are prohibited by it. Neither government nor this Court can or should ignore the significance of the fact that a vast portion of our people believe in and worship God and that many of our legal, political, and personal values derive historically from religious teachings. Government must inevitably take cognizance of the existence of religion and, indeed, under certain circumstances the First Amendment may require that it do so.'.

(12) On March 5, 1984, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Lynch v. Donelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984), in which a city government's display of a nativity scene was held to be constitutional, Chief Justice Burger, writing for the Court, stated: `There is an unbroken history of official acknowledgment by all three branches of government of the role of religion in American life from at least 1789 . . . xamples of reference to our religious heritage are found in the statutorily prescribed national motto `In God We Trust' (36 U.S.C. 186), which Congress and the President mandated for our currency, see (31 U.S.C. 5112(d)(1) (1982 ed.)), and in the language `One Nation under God', as part of the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag. That pledge is recited by many thousands of public school children--and adults--every year . . . Art galleries supported by public revenues display religious paintings of the 15th and 16th centuries, predominantly inspired by one religious faith. The National Gallery in Washington, maintained with Government support, for example, has long exhibited masterpieces with religious messages, notably the Last Supper, and paintings depicting the Birth of Christ, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection, among many others with explicit Christian themes and messages. The very chamber in which oral arguments on this case were heard is decorated with a notable and permanent--not seasonal--symbol of religion: Moses with the Ten Commandments. Congress has long provided chapels in the Capitol for religious worship and meditation.'.

(13) On June 4, 1985, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38 (1985), in which a mandatory moment of silence to be used for meditation or voluntary prayer was held unconstitutional, Justice O'Connor, concurring in the judgment and addressing the contention that the Court's holding would render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because Congress amended it in 1954 to add the words `under God,' stated `In my view, the words `under God' in the Pledge, as codified at (36 U.S.C. 172), serve as an acknowledgment of religion with `the legitimate secular purposes of solemnizing public occasions, expressing confidence in the future.'.

(14) On November 20, 1992, the United States Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, in Sherman v. Community Consolidated School District 21, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992), held that a school district's policy for voluntary recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance including the words `under God' was constitutional.

(15) The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals erroneously held, in Newdow v. U.S. Congress, (9th Cir. June 26, 2002) that the Pledge of Allegiance's use of the express religious reference `under God' violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional.

(16) The erroneous rationale of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Newdow would lead to the absurd result that the Constitution's use of the express religious reference `Year of our Lord' in Article VII violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Constitution itself would be unconstitutional.

SEC. 2. ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 4 of title 4, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

`The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Pledge for decades.

SEC. 3. REAFFIRMING THAT GOD REMAINS IN OUR MOTTO.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 302 of title 36, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 302. National motto

`In God we trust' is the national motto.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall make no change in section 302, title 36, United States Code, but shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Motto for decades. Attest:

Clerk.





I suppose you haven't heard of the Establishment Clause?  I like how your argument fails to mention that the origin of the mention of God in The Bill of Rights was meant as a rebellious notion against the British Monarchy.  The Monarchy of England assumed power by divine right, our founding Fathers begged to differ.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Reynolds1863 on 12/07/07 at 5:27 pm


First anything after about 1800 will exclude the founding fathers, so any decisions above would have to be excluded for the sake of this argument, all of them being just yaddayaddayadda.  The pilgrims are not founding fathers, they were long dead and buried before this nation was founded, and a good thing, too. They were a religious cult that did not believe in freedom of religion, well freedom of anything,  and were great for burning people at the stake and banishing them for not following their own particular brand of religion.

If you actually study the founding fathers, instead of rehashing, you will find most of them talked a good game in public. Their injection of  God into a conversation and writings was more a habit and style. The most famous of the founding fathers spoke or wrote God, but rarely practiced religion which is one of the reasons they were so concerned about the state controlling ones private beliefs.  Jefferson, of course, a well known  hypocrite in more than this area, was not then, and is not now, considered religious at all. Washington almost never attended church, Adams was a Unitarian, and on and on.

Then there is the 1st Amendment

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

And Jeffersons words in a letter of 1802

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

They all spoke in terms of God, most, not all, believed in God in there own way, they also believed that the practice of religion should be a private matter, not public intrusion.

As I pointed above, the changes evolved after the Civil War.


You didn't mention Chief Justice Oliver Wendel Holmes statement that freedom of religion also constituted freedom from religion. :)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: saver on 12/07/07 at 6:43 pm


The separation of church and state goes to the issue of having one state sanctioned religion, and the prohibition or separate regulation of religions outside of that state sanctioned religion.  People are free to practice their religion without interference of the state.  It is ok for Muslim prisoners to have prayer rugs and kneel to Mecca just as it is for Christian prisoners to attend mass, which they do.



Then is the issue at the WA State airport a case of 'discrimination' because they wanted Christmas trees in the corridor and had to remove them in fear of a lawsuit for not honoring a menorrah(?),and kwansa bush?

San Bernardino CA county lets prisoners pray to Mecca and wear yarmlkes but other religious trinkets not allowed like a cross around rthe neck as they are deemed potential weapons!
Now what kind of person would turn a crucifix into a weapon?? :D :D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/07/07 at 6:46 pm

If we want to start a new thread on religion we can. This thread is about other cultures. Shall we turn the topic back to that?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/07/07 at 6:51 pm

Someone on a mod trip?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ladyhawk on 12/07/07 at 6:55 pm

No, just trying to help.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Reynolds1863 on 12/07/07 at 7:00 pm


Someone on a mod trip?


http://iconhell.com/i/iconhell_surrealthoughtz_mwahahaa.gif

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: saver on 12/07/07 at 11:34 pm


If we want to start a new thread on religion we can. This thread is about other cultures. Shall we turn the topic back to that?


Hmm, do prisons in other countries let prisoners practice their faith... :(

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/08/07 at 12:03 am


Hmm, do prisons in other countries let prisoners practice their faith... :(


In most western countries prisons will indeed have different services for different faiths, however, in parts of the Islamic world, this is not the case, that being said, in rabid catholic countries this is also not the case.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Red Ant on 12/08/07 at 12:09 am


Hmm, do prisons in other countries let prisoners practice their faith... :(


Some countries put people in prison because of their faith:

Falun Gong

Ant



Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/08/07 at 4:17 am



^ That's organized religion though, and the so-called religious "leaders" exacting their will upon the masses.  I doubt that your run-of-the-mill Godfearing Christian would actually go off slitting their Muslim neighbors' throats :) 




I think we may differ on that opinion. It wasn't so long ago, that lynching was a spectator sport.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/08/07 at 7:56 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vYXbXzzmVo&feature=related

in speaking of the freaky New Christist movement in the US, this guy is a rock star. you guys know about michael weinstein? i'd never heard of him before this morning. thank god people are starting to rise up against the fundamentalist evangelical chokehold on this country.

(which chokehold, incidentally, is a big part of the reason why so many in america are ignorant of other cultures. as mike sez, there are apparently 50 million people in the "hearland" of america who think the world began 1500 years after the sumerians started brewing beer.  ::) )

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/08/07 at 10:47 am


I think we may differ on that opinion. It wasn't so long ago, that lynching was a spectator sport.



Good point, but beheadings are more popular today in the good ole Middle East.  They also treat their women like they're dogs.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/08/07 at 10:59 am


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vYXbXzzmVo&feature=related

in speaking of the freaky New Christist movement in the US, this guy is a rock star. you guys know about michael weinstein? i'd never heard of him before this morning. thank god people are starting to rise up against the fundamentalist evangelical chokehold on this country.

(which chokehold, incidentally, is a big part of the reason why so many in america are ignorant of other cultures. as mike sez, there are apparently 50 million people in the "hearland" of america who think the world began 1500 years after the sumerians started brewing beer.  ::) )


Now THAT is disturbing....

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/08/07 at 11:00 am


Good point, but beheadings are more popular today in the good ole Middle East.  They also treat their women like they're dogs.
of course, right now there's a bunch of born-agains in office and they've bombed an entire country into decimation, meanwhile plunging thousands into death and misery, for no particularly good reason save for religious crusade and financial and political gain. i'm not sure if this is really any less repugnant than beheading people; it just looks better on cable television.

i mean, really, if you want to talk about evil, there's no act worse than premeditated, unprovoked war. it's the worst of the worst. and make no mistake -- the bush war has a significant religious component. (partly organized, partly not.)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/08/07 at 11:09 am


of course, right now there's a bunch of born-agains in office and they've bombed an entire country into decimation, meanwhile plunging thousands into death and misery, for no particularly good reason save for religious crusade and financial and political gain. i'm not sure if this is really any less repugnant than beheading people; it just looks better on cable television.

i mean, really, if you want to talk about evil, there's no act worse than premeditated, unprovoked war. it's the worst of the worst. and make no mistake -- the bush war has a significant religious component. (partly organized, partly not.)


While I agree that the war profiteers are evil, I would put the Islamic extremists on the same level, if not worse.  Right now, a significant portion of the Islamic World is either murderously extremist or just a few steps away from becoming extremist due to their support for draconian laws against women, homosexuals, and even non-Muslims in general.

We're talking about a religion whose main holy city, Mecca, does not even allow non-Muslims to set foot there.  If they are caught doing so, they can be put to death.

So if there's any insanity out there worse than warmongering, it's Islamic extremism.  Right now, many Islamic cultures are the biggest offenders when it comes to various human rights abuses.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Mushroom on 12/08/07 at 3:08 pm


We're talking about a religion whose main holy city, Mecca, does not even allow non-Muslims to set foot there.  If they are caught doing so, they can be put to death.

So if there's any insanity out there worse than warmongering, it's Islamic extremism.  Right now, many Islamic cultures are the biggest offenders when it comes to various human rights abuses.


This is not to unusual historically.  A lot of sites in ancient Egypt as well as Jerusalem were the same way.

Herod's Temple was composed of multiple Courts, ranging from the Gentile's Court, to the Women's Court, the Court of the Israelites, and the Priest's Court.  Inside of the last was the Temple itself, which only the High Priests could enter.  The penalty was death for anybody who was not authorized to enter one of the courts.

In fact, many historians believe that the unrest in Jerusalem in the spring of 33 CE was caused by Roman Soldiers entering the Court of the Israelites and erecting a plaque dedicated to Tiberius.  This caused great anger and unrest among the Jews, since that area of the temple was considered "Holy Ground", and was not fit for Gentiles to enter.

And sadly, the problem of Human Rights violations is most often extreme in the areas where Fundamentalism is rampant.  This is among many reasons that I do not trust Fundamentalists of any kind.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/08/07 at 7:57 pm


This is not to unusual historically.  A lot of sites in ancient Egypt as well as Jerusalem were the same way.

Herod's Temple was composed of multiple Courts, ranging from the Gentile's Court, to the Women's Court, the Court of the Israelites, and the Priest's Court.  Inside of the last was the Temple itself, which only the High Priests could enter.  The penalty was death for anybody who was not authorized to enter one of the courts.

In fact, many historians believe that the unrest in Jerusalem in the spring of 33 CE was caused by Roman Soldiers entering the Court of the Israelites and erecting a plaque dedicated to Tiberius.  This caused great anger and unrest among the Jews, since that area of the temple was considered "Holy Ground", and was not fit for Gentiles to enter.

And sadly, the problem of Human Rights violations is most often extreme in the areas where Fundamentalism is rampant.  This is among many reasons that I do not trust Fundamentalists of any kind.


Interesting points...  I guess what I'm getting at is that a modern religious society should be evolved past the whole "you can't enter my holy city" idea.  For example, the Vatican allows anyone to enter it.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/08/07 at 8:06 pm


Interesting points...  I guess what I'm getting at is that a modern religious society should be evolved past the whole "you can't enter my holy city" idea.  For example, the Vatican allows anyone to enter it.


For a fee.  Let it never be said that the Vatican missed an opportunity to make a buck.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 12/09/07 at 5:36 am


For a fee.  Let it never be said that the Vatican missed an opportunity to make a buck.


No joke. Have you ever seen the "Battle Of Jericho" flyswatters and "Red Sea Parter" enema bags they sell?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/09/07 at 5:37 am


No joke. Have you ever seen the "Battle Of Jericho" flyswatters and "Red Sea Parter" enema bags they sell?


eeeeeewwwwww!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Reynolds1863 on 12/09/07 at 11:12 am


No joke. Have you ever seen the "Battle Of Jericho" flyswatters and "Red Sea Parter" enema bags they sell?


Both used and endorsed by the Vatican City Bureau of Tourism and the College of Cardinals.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/09/07 at 1:15 pm


For a fee.  Let it never be said that the Vatican missed an opportunity to make a buck.


Agreed...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/09/07 at 1:49 pm

Related to this topic...do you guys think that americans who get the chance to travel or live abroad are more interested and acceptable of other cultures? What has been your experience when you travel to other countries? Did your opinions about abroad changed 'cause you've been there?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/09/07 at 3:23 pm


Related to this topic...do you guys think that americans who get the chance to travel or live abroad are more interested and acceptable of other cultures? What has been your experience when you travel to other countries? Did your opinions about abroad changed 'cause you've been there?


I have been to England and Paris and found my fellow Americans to be somewhat awful to be around when there.  Instead of immersing themselves in the moment and the culture, they spent more time comparing. It was all "in the states" this, and "in the states" that.  Although many of us think there isn't any reason to even attempt a foreign language, the same people expect people in other countries to learn English to accommodate them while traveling. 
  As for what I experienced, I found it much easier to be African American easier in England, and especially in Paris.  In England discrimination is more based on class, and with my oh so proper Boston accent I did quite well.  I can fully understand the African American expatriates who went to Paris. The society is much less oppressively racist.  Sad, but true.  The USA is the land of the free for some, sort of free for most.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/09/07 at 3:54 pm


I have been to England and Paris and found my fellow Americans to be somewhat awful to be around when there.  Instead of immersing themselves in the moment and the culture, they spent more time comparing. It was all "in the states" this, and "in the states" that.  Although many of us think there isn't any reason to even attempt a foreign language, the same people expect people in other countries to learn English to accommodate them while traveling. 
   As for what I experienced, I found it much easier to be African American easier in England, and especially in Paris.  In England discrimination is more based on class, and with my oh so proper Boston accent I did quite well.  I can fully understand the African American expatriates who went to Paris. The society is much less oppressively racist.  Sad, but true.  The USA is the land of the free for some, sort of free for most.


I'll pose the same question to you that I posed to Lee.  If you prefer the U.K. to America, why not move there?  I don't mean this as an insult, I'm just asking why you would want to stay in a country that you feel is worse than another.

In a way, I can relate to you, because I feel that Canada is better than America.  I haven't moved there because I like my job, and I don't know anyone up there.  Is your situation similar?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/09/07 at 4:01 pm



I'll pose the same question to you that I posed to Lee.  If you prefer the U.K. to America, why not move there?  I don't mean this as an insult, I'm just asking why you would want to stay in a country that you feel is worse than another.

In a way, I can relate to you, because I feel that Canada is better than America.  I haven't moved there because I like my job, and I don't know anyone up there.  Is your situation similar?



This is my home.  I am also one to disregard peoples attitudes, if they have a problem with me that is their problem, not mine, and it is best they keep it that way.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/09/07 at 4:05 pm


I'll pose the same question to you that I posed to Lee.  If you prefer the U.K. to America, why not move there?  I don't mean this as an insult, I'm just asking why you would want to stay in a country that you feel is worse than another.


You can't exactly just change citizenship for another nation unless you marry a native, and even then it's a hassle.  It's not saying you want to expatriate if you don't like there current government or have a cultural hangup or two!
:D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/09/07 at 4:07 pm


This is my home.  I am also one to disregard peoples attitudes, if they have a problem with me that is their problem, not mine, and it is best they keep it that way.


That's a good way to live, but I have to wonder about that.  In nearly every post you make here, it involves a reference to racial prejudice.  You obviously notice this sort of thing, and it must wear on your mind some.

I've never been to Boston, so I don't know what it's like up there.  All I know is that I remember reading about the bus riots back in the 70s.  How are things up there these days?  I'm hoping they're better.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/09/07 at 4:09 pm


You can't exactly just change citizenship for another nation unless you marry a native, and even then it's a hassle.  It's not saying you want to expatriate if you don't like there current government or have a cultural hangup or two!
:D


Good points...  I have looked through what it takes to become a Canadian citizen.  It's not easy.  Although... my company does have a plant up there.  I may eventually be able to transfer to Toronto.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/09/07 at 4:23 pm

I was thinking just today about how I reference a lot of prejudice in my posts.  I think I get involved in those  posts because I see a lot of misconceptions or inconsistencies, and they tend to irk me. There are only  few of us on these boards, so I feel that I should weigh in on some of the issues.  For a bit of background, I grew up in a largely white area, though my neighborhood was very diverse. "Some of my best friends are..."  and so is my significant other(Irish, no less).  The climate in Boston has progressed since the 60s though it is far from perfect.  The problem is that the political structure is firmly entrenched and part of that is a legacy of racism.  I say my significant other is "Irish, no less" because the tensions between those of Irish descent and African Americans are the most raw, and it so happens that the power structure in the Boston area is pretty firmly in the hands of th Boston Irish.  It was very ugly until a few years ago, but it has gotten much better, I can actually walk the streets of Southie without being accosted, and that is saying alot.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/09/07 at 4:29 pm


That's a good way to live, but I have to wonder about that.  In nearly every post you make here, it involves a reference to racial prejudice.  You obviously notice this sort of thing, and it must wear on your mind some.

I've never been to Boston, so I don't know what it's like up there.  All I know is that I remember reading about the bus riots back in the 70s.  How are things up there these days?  I'm hoping they're better.


It's somewhat better after 35 years.  The busing riots are about Boston's most notorious moment in modern history.  It touched off so much racial hatred.  That is to say, it was always there, but busing made it spill over.  I still think Boston has racial tensions peculiar to Boston to this day.  I live about 80 miles west of Boston, but I used to live in the city.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/09/07 at 4:30 pm


I was thinking just today about how I reference a lot of prejudice in my posts.  I think I get involved in those  posts because I see a lot of misconceptions or inconsistencies, and they tend to irk me. There are only  few of us on these boards, so I feel that I should weigh in on some of the issues.  For a bit of background, I grew up in a largely white area, though my neighborhood was very diverse. "Some of my best friends are..."  and so is my significant other(Irish, no less).  The climate in Boston has progressed since the 60s though it is far from perfect.  The problem is that the political structure is firmly entrenched and part of that is a legacy of racism.  I say my significant other is "Irish, no less" because the tensions between those of Irish descent and African Americans are the most raw, and it so happens that the power structure in the Boston area is pretty firmly in the hands of th Boston Irish.  It was very ugly until a few years ago, but it has gotten much better, I can actually walk the streets of Southie without being accosted, and that is saying alot.


I'm glad things have improved.  It's kind of ironic to me how Massachusetts gets this reputation for being ultraliberal, and yet, they sound like they have major race issues.

North Carolina isn't exactly known for its racial harmony either (we had Jesse Helms in office for a LONG time), but my city of Greensboro is actually pretty prominent in the black community.  We're home to NC A&T, which is one of the better known primarily black colleges in the South.  We also have a lot of black businesses and a large black population.

It's kind of funny how many places in the South have better race relations today than certain areas of the North.  It's certainly not something you would expect from our country's history.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/09/07 at 4:35 pm


I'm glad things have improved.  It's kind of ironic to me how Massachusetts gets this reputation for being ultraliberal, and yet, they sound like they have major race issues.

North Carolina isn't exactly known for its racial harmony either (we had Jesse Helms in office for a LONG time), but my city of Greensboro is actually pretty prominent in the black community.  We're home to NC A&T, which is one of the better known primarily black colleges in the South.  We also have a lot of black businesses and a large black population.

It's kind of funny how many places in the South have better race relations today than certain areas of the North.  It's certainly not something you would expect from our country's history.



Too true. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/09/07 at 4:39 pm


I was thinking just today about how I reference a lot of prejudice in my posts.  I think I get involved in those  posts because I see a lot of misconceptions or inconsistencies, and they tend to irk me. There are only  few of us on these boards, so I feel that I should weigh in on some of the issues.  For a bit of background, I grew up in a largely white area, though my neighborhood was very diverse. "Some of my best friends are..."  and so is my significant other(Irish, no less).  The climate in Boston has progressed since the 60s though it is far from perfect.  The problem is that the political structure is firmly entrenched and part of that is a legacy of racism.  I say my significant other is "Irish, no less" because the tensions between those of Irish descent and African Americans are the most raw, and it so happens that the power structure in the Boston area is pretty firmly in the hands of th Boston Irish.  It was very ugly until a few years ago, but it has gotten much better, I can actually walk the streets of Southie without being accosted, and that is saying alot.

That is saying a lot.  The Southie/Doorchester divide is still vicious.  Dorchester used to be a solidly Irish town until the 40s.  Well, the Howie Carrs of the city have a hard time getting acclimatized.  

And Howie Carr braggs about how many neighborhoods he's been told to stay out of on pain of death.  Never made since to me.  If you really wanted to get Howie, you would invite him to your neighborhood...he's not hard to miss, literally!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/09/07 at 6:51 pm


 

And Howie Carr braggs about how many neighborhoods he's been told to stay out of on pain of death.  Never made since to me.  If you really wanted to get Howie, you would invite him to your neighborhood...he's not hard to miss, literally!



Howie Carr and Barnicle, they both like to pretend they are in there with the working man.  Carr went to Deerfield Acacemy and lives in Wellesley and Barnicle lives in Lincoln, and is a plagiarist, who for some reason never missed a beat when it came to getting work.  Maybe it has something to do with being married to Anne Finucane, one of the many Presidents of Bank of America. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/10/07 at 2:04 am


Howie Carr and Barnicle, they both like to pretend they are in there with the working man.  Carr went to Deerfield Acacemy and lives in Wellesley and Barnicle lives in Lincoln, and is a plagiarist, who for some reason never missed a beat when it came to getting work.  Maybe it has something to do with being married to Anne Finucane, one of the many Presidents of Bank of America. 


Howie appeals to a redneck chic.  His listeners tend to be above average income and below average intelligence.  I mean, have you ever listened to the calls on his radio show?  Those guys are duu-uu-uu-uumb!

"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."
--Dean Wormer

Ever since Barnicle started appearing on TV when I was a kid in the early '80s, one question I have always had:  Why does anybody like this guy?  My question remains unanswered.

Plagiarism:  Don't try this at home kids, I'm a professional!
::)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: laffytaffy on 12/11/07 at 3:01 pm


If we want to start a new thread on religion we can. This thread is about other cultures. Shall we turn the topic back to that?


Perhaps it's ingrained in us in grade school that America is No. 1!  and nobody else really matters.  I don't recall even
taking one geography class or studying other country's cultures. I had to do it on my own through my own self interest
in the subject.  There is a difference in people who get to travel.  A pronounced difference. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/11/07 at 3:04 pm


I have been to England and Paris and found my fellow Americans to be somewhat awful to be around when there.  Instead of immersing themselves in the moment and the culture, they spent more time comparing. It was all "in the states" this, and "in the states" that.  Although many of us think there isn't any reason to even attempt a foreign language, the same people expect people in other countries to learn English to accommodate them while traveling. 
   As for what I experienced, I found it much easier to be African American easier in England, and especially in Paris.  In England discrimination is more based on class, and with my oh so proper Boston accent I did quite well.  I can fully understand the African American expatriates who went to Paris. The society is much less oppressively racist.  Sad, but true.  The USA is the land of the free for some, sort of free for most.


I met some americans living in Europe who weren't like that at all,they were really interested in learning the language and culture of the place they were in,there was a genuine interest from their part that i didn't see in europeans.
For instance i lived in Spain for awhile and i worked at a bar where college kids from all over the world used to go and americans were the only ones who even tried to speak euskara,and that's no sissy language like spanish,basque is really hard to learn,still they gave it a try and always said mesedez and not gracias,unlike others from the UK,France,Germany who used to be hated by locals because they insisted in speaking in spanish,now if you’re in Donosti-San Basti that’s really ofensive but they just didn’t care...wich i found extremely rude.
In Lisbon was the same thing,brits couldn’t care less but  americans walked around with an english-portuguese phrase book,speaking the local language is not a requirement at all but it’s always nice to see someone who at least tries.

As for living in America...for most part i really liked it and can't say i had it harder than in other places i've been,i was in NYC so maybe that had a little to do with it,it's such a melting pot and if you can deal with "always in a bad mood" attitude new yorkers are famous for you are set! Prejudice and discrimination unfortunetly happen in every place,people always look at you differently and wonder "why are you here?",sometimes it really can break you,other times you feel like you're above all that...i like to think of myself as a citizen of the world,just like Socrates ;D,true... i have no money and come from south america,still that hasn't stopped me much.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/11/07 at 3:06 pm


Perhaps it's ingrained in us in grade school that America is No. 1!  and nobody else really matters.  I don't recall even
taking one geography class or studying other country's cultures. I had to do it on my own through my own self interest
in the subject.  There is a difference in people who get to travel.  A pronounced difference. 


Trust me, it's very different now.

The leftists have infiltrated the public education system to the point where students learn more about Asia and the middle east than their own state. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to study other cultures, but people wonder why so many new voters have no idea about their own political system, it's primarily because they're learning so much about China, Pakistan or whatever the flavor of the month is, they have no idea what's going on in their own backyard.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 12/11/07 at 3:55 pm


Trust me, it's very different now.

The leftists have infiltrated the public education system to the point where students learn more about Asia and the middle east than their own state. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to study other cultures, but people wonder why so many new voters have no idea about their own political system, it's primarily because they're learning so much about China, Pakistan or whatever the flavor of the month is, they have no idea what's going on in their own backyard.


Agree.  Conversely, I believe that in most foreign nations the education systems emphasize both indigenous and outside history in their curriculae so their students are often more well-rounded and prepared once they get out of high school (you should see some of the idiots I had to teach :( ). 

It's cool to reach out and learn about what's out there, but you should start with the fundamentals and know thy own self first.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/11/07 at 4:00 pm


Agree.  Conversely, I believe that in most foreign nations the education systems emphasize both indigenous and outside history in their curriculae so their students are often more well-rounded and prepared once they get out of high school (you should see some of the idiots I had to teach :( ). 

It's cool to reach out and learn about what's out there, but you should start with the fundamentals and know thy own self first.


Right. Instead of getting all reactionary and either jumping one way or the other, get the balance going on.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: laffytaffy on 12/11/07 at 4:12 pm


Trust me, it's very different now.

The leftists have infiltrated the public education system to the point where students learn more about Asia and the middle east than their own state. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to study other cultures, but people wonder why so many new voters have no idea about their own political system, it's primarily because they're learning so much about China, Pakistan or whatever the flavor of the month is, they have no idea what's going on in their own backyard.


I have been reading some others responses about how the school system has failed our children in just the ability to write properly.  The "no child left behind" was an utter failure, it teaches kids how to pass tests and that's no way to learn, that's how to memorize long enough to pass a test.

I don't know why we can't learn about other countries and our own political system.  These kids are at the age where they can absorb
a lot of knowledge, if given the proper environment, budget and a system which doesn't stress "testing" for certain facts so much.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/11/07 at 4:19 pm


I have been reading some others responses about how the school system has failed our children in just the ability to write properly.  The "no child left behind" was an utter failure, it teaches kids how to pass tests and that's no way to learn, that's how to memorize long enough to pass a test.

I don't know why we can't learn about other countries and our own political system.  These kids are at the age where they can absorb
a lot of knowledge, if given the proper environment, budget and a system which doesn't stress "testing" for certain facts so much.


You're not going to believe this - We agree on something!  :o

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 12/11/07 at 4:22 pm

Have you also noticed how whenever you go to a foreign country, at least half the people there actually know English?  Yet, come over to the US of A...

That goes to show what a well-rounded education can get you :)  Although I shouldn't talk, I forgot a lot of Chinese and French :P

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/11/07 at 4:57 pm


Have you also noticed how whenever you go to a foreign country, at least half the people there actually know English?  Yet, come over to the US of A...

That goes to show what a well-rounded education can get you :)  Although I shouldn't talk, I forgot a lot of Chinese and French :P


English comes easy to us all 'cause anglosphere rules all media. We watch american and british films and tv,listen to your music,the internet is english obssessed...we can't escape it and we don't want to,plus it's very accessible,your grammar is not difficult to learn at all.

If you don't travel much,the chances of using a language you've learned are close to none. The only languages i've had in high school were english and german(which i forgot almost completely:(),so if i can speak enough french and spanish to get by is cause i had to hear it and speak it everyday.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 12/12/07 at 3:40 am

Not only that, but consider how many countries have more than one "official" language!

Example: Switzerland.

Depending on where you are, you either speak French, German, Italian or Romansh.
I know when I was in Montreux, they spoke primarliy French- which I was OK with, since I had learned 2 yrs. of French at the time. (I eventually learned 4 yrs. worth, and still use most of my French semi-regularly)

-However, travelling into Switzerland from Belgium, we stopped at a restaurant, and the waitress spoke closer to German.
I didn't study German, but my oldest mephew was born in Darmstadt, Germany, and I had been told a little about the language, so I could recognize it well enough to know what it was.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: philbo on 12/12/07 at 11:15 am


Agree.  Conversely, I believe that in most foreign nations the education systems emphasize both indigenous and outside history in their curriculae so their students are often more well-rounded and prepared once they get out of high school (you should see some of the idiots I had to teach :( ).

er.. wouldn't the plural of "curriculum" be "curricula" (-a singular words go to -ae plurals, if I remember my Latin).  Is this the most petty and pedantic post, ever?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Jessica on 12/12/07 at 11:18 am


er.. wouldn't the plural of "curriculum" be "curricula" (-a singular words go to -ae plurals, if I remember my Latin).  Is this the most petty and pedantic post, ever?


Nah, I've seen worse. ;)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: danootaandme on 12/12/07 at 11:20 am



er.. wouldn't the plural of "curriculum" be "curricula" (-a singular words go to -ae plurals, if I remember my Latin).  Is this the most petty and pedantic post, ever?





Nah, I've seen worse. ;)



Heck no.  I could give lessons on petty and pedantic

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/12/07 at 12:06 pm


er.. wouldn't the plural of "curriculum" be "curricula" (-a singular words go to -ae plurals, if I remember my Latin).  Is this the most petty and pedantic post, ever?

To give a formal answer to a rhetorical question, both are acceptable, though "curricula" is prefered. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: laffytaffy on 12/12/07 at 12:37 pm


You're not going to believe this - We agree on something!  :o


No, weirder things have never happened than that!  ???

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 12/12/07 at 12:46 pm


er.. wouldn't the plural of "curriculum" be "curricula" (-a singular words go to -ae plurals, if I remember my Latin).  Is this the most petty and pedantic post, ever?


You're probably right, that's probably why my verbal test scores were always so low :D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/12/07 at 4:25 pm


I had learned 2 yrs. of French at the time. (I eventually learned 4 yrs. worth, and still use most of my French semi-regularly)


Si tu parles français on devrait se parler un jour. J'ai toujours voulu commencer un fil ici tout en français, mais j'ai pensé qu'il n'y aurait pas assez d'autres francophones ou francophiles au forum. Ça fait longtemps que je cherche un forum de discussion comme celui-ci, mais en français. Il n'y en a pas vraiment. Bon, il y en a, mais aucun n'est aussi vivant ou actif qu'Inthe00s.

Alors si jamais tu voulais m'envoyer un message privé pour jaser et pratiquer ton français, ce serait bienvenu.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 12/12/07 at 4:48 pm

^ I read that!  :D

So there are no Quebecois forums?  ???

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/12/07 at 5:18 pm


^ I read that!  :D

So there are no Quebecois forums?  ???


Well there are francophone forums out there, but as I said, they are usually never as active as these forums here. I have recently found a place called discutons.org. with lots of forums, and there are a few which are pretty vibrant and active, so hopefully that will work out.

But as for Québécois forums in particular, not really too interested. I prefer going on the French forums. More people there anyway.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/13/07 at 3:45 pm



Alors si jamais tu voulais m'envoyer un message privé pour jaser et pratiquer ton français, ce serait bienvenu.



Oh oh,moi aussi!J'ai besoin de pratiquer mon français et tu semblez trés cool...peut-être nous peux part le nudité tabu,américains ne comprennent pas ;D


Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/13/07 at 3:46 pm

A picture says more than 1000 words  :D

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5893/americaoa4.jpg


Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 12/13/07 at 3:53 pm

Isabel-

Tu est drole, amie.
L'atlas au Terre est tres amusant.

Mais pas toute Americains pense dans cette mode.
Pour moi, je vais un mode de pensent liberale.

McDonald-

Merci, pour votre suggestion.
C'est possible pour ca; j'ai besoin de practice. Vous etes un individual interesante.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/13/07 at 3:54 pm


A picture says more than 1000 words  :D

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5893/americaoa4.jpg



hey! so you're down there with the dragons, huh?  :D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/13/07 at 4:24 pm


hey! so you're down there with the dragons, huh?  :D


Me,a redhead now 8)
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1935/fa123ng2.jpg

These damn dragons never learn!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/13/07 at 4:28 pm


A picture says more than 1000 words  :D

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5893/americaoa4.jpg




Maybe 25 years ago.  Communism got beat.  We one.  Uh, won. 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: loki 13 on 12/13/07 at 4:47 pm


A picture says more than 1000 words  :D

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5893/americaoa4.jpg





This map is quite amusing but it just shows one thing, why are other cultures so ignorant of Americans?
This map is a typical stereotype drawn by a Non-American, note the spelling of neighbor, and unfortunately
it is how we are viewed by the rest of the world. Most cultures paint all Americans with the same brush,
ignorant, arrogant and uneducated, this only describes a minority of people in this country.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/13/07 at 4:51 pm


This map is quite amusing but it just shows one thing, why are other cultures so ignorant of Americans?
This map is a typical stereotype drawn by a Non-American, note the spelling of neighbor, and unfortunately
it is how we are viewed by the rest of the world. Most cultures paint all Americans with the same brush,
ignorant, arrogant and uneducated, this only describes a minority of people in this country.


Indeed, most of us have only two of any three of thse traits at once!
:D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/13/07 at 4:56 pm


This map is quite amusing but it just shows one thing, why are other cultures so ignorant of Americans?
This map is a typical stereotype drawn by a Non-American, note the spelling of neighbor, and unfortunately
it is how we are viewed by the rest of the world. Most cultures paint all Americans with the same brush,
ignorant, arrogant and uneducated, this only describes a minority of people in this country.

well, people all over the world stereotype people (you can quote me on that!  :P ) but the stereotype of americans used to be a pretty cool one -- i remember before 9/11 i was hanging out with some british people and this one british gal invites me to a party on the pretext that "here in london it makes you look good to have an american on your arm."  :D i was like, nice! if this is stereotyping me, i could get used to it.

unfortunately, recent events have caused a largely positive stereotype to become a decidedly negative one. but i think people all over the world have preconceptions about other people all over the world. It’s a big world out there , filled with commies, so pretty often I meet people from other countries and I know virtually nothing about their culture and they know virtually nothing about mine. I think we should start being okay with that from time to time.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/13/07 at 5:00 pm


This map is quite amusing but it just shows one thing, why are other cultures so ignorant of Americans?
This map is a typical stereotype drawn by a Non-American, note the spelling of neighbor, and unfortunately
it is how we are viewed by the rest of the world. Most cultures paint all Americans with the same brush,
ignorant, arrogant and uneducated, this only describes a minority of people in this country.



OK, I lived in 4 states for 20 odd years, and I know that the average American knows very little about anything outside of the US. I would say that people in the US who do are a strong minority. Even if culturally conscious people in the US numbered 100 million, they would still be outnumbered 2 to 1.

Because let's face it. The US are so big that whatever you say about them must be true. You can say that 'Americans like to watch bears in tutus ride tricycles and drink piss' and somewhere amidst the vast territory populated by 300 million people at one time... this has happened.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/13/07 at 5:04 pm

All that said, there are some aspects of anti-americanism that really irritate me. I mean, the world at large is being victimized by the bush administration and their immoral policies but America is suffering along with everyone else – our dollar is tanked, people are overworked and cant get health insurance, the social safety net here is being ruthlessly dismantled, we’re losing our manufacturing sector, the gap between the rich and the rest of us is cavernous here -- I mean there’s a lot of real bad sheesh going down in America and I think it would be a lot more productive to see the issue more as the world vs. the bush administration and the neocons rather than America vs. the world. To the extent that the American people allow the bushies to frame our image abroad without protesting it I think we’re partly culpable but it would be nice if people abroad worked a little harder to see through some of the hype as well, ya know?

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/13/07 at 5:14 pm


Oh oh,moi aussi!J'ai besoin de pratiquer mon français et tu semblez trés cool...peut-être nous peux part le nudité tabu,américains ne comprennent pas ;D



McDonald-

Merci, pour votre suggestion.
C'est possible pour ca; j'ai besoin de practice. Vous etes un individual interesante.


Si vous deux avez besoin de pratique, je serais ravi de converser avec vous. Peut-être qu'on pourrait lancer un fil ici à quelque part uniquement pour poster en français. Comme un fil de discussion sans fin avec une seule règle : que toutes les contributions soient en français. Je vais chercher une place appropriée parmi les forums de ce site pour le lancement.

Et merci de vos compliments, c'est gentil.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/13/07 at 5:27 pm

Voilà le lien à la discussion, qui se trouve dans le forum <<Playful Penguin Place>>.

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=30036.0

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 12/13/07 at 8:12 pm


This map is quite amusing but it just shows one thing, why are other cultures so ignorant of Americans?
This map is a typical stereotype drawn by a Non-American, note the spelling of neighbor, and unfortunately
it is how we are viewed by the rest of the world. Most cultures paint all Americans with the same brush,
ignorant, arrogant and uneducated, this only describes a minority of people in this country.




This minority?
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2230/bushmeetthefudgeersvj4.jpg

They're almost gone...then we'll see if America can redeem herself as a nation.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 12/13/07 at 8:39 pm


OK, I lived in 4 states for 20 odd years, and I know that the average American knows very little about anything outside of the US. I would say that people in the US who do are a strong minority. Even if culturally conscious people in the US numbered 100 million, they would still be outnumbered 2 to 1.

Because let's face it. The US are so big that whatever you say about them must be true. You can say that 'Americans like to watch bears in tutus ride tricycles and drink piss' and somewhere amidst the vast territory populated by 300 million people at one time... this has happened.


This is probably true for the most part, because USA is such a large country that it might as well be like five or six separate countries...but it's kind of funny how if you're like a Californian moving to, I dunno, North Carolina, people think you're special because you came from such a foreign place :D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Brian06 on 12/13/07 at 9:04 pm

The United States is such a large country, thus it's different all over. It's different though in Europe, you live next to what over a dozen other countries and when you're in Europe (I've been there) going to another European country is like going to another state. In the US, you have Canada and Mexico and everything else seems very distant...because it is. Americans are very proud and kind of full of themselves, in this country ALL you hear about your entire life is how the United States is the best country in the world and basically how everything American is the greatest and the rest of the world is inferior. Now I don't really believe that nowadays (though I don't this country is so bad like the far left portrays it), but it is the general sentiment you will encounter in this country. In Europe you do not see this kind of national pride.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: karen on 12/13/07 at 10:19 pm


The United States is such a large country, thus it's different all over. It's different though in Europe, you live next to what over a dozen other countries and when you're in Europe (I've been there) going to another European country is like going to another state. In the US, you have Canada and Mexico and everything else seems very distant...because it is. Americans are very proud and kind of full of themselves, in this country ALL you hear about your entire life is how the United States is the best country in the world and basically how everything American is the greatest and the rest of the world is inferior. Now I don't really believe that nowadays (though I don't this country is so bad like the far left portrays it), but it is the general sentiment you will encounter in this country. In Europe you do not see this kind of national pride.


Or at least the number showing it are generally in the minority and most of the rest of the population regard them as mental or psycho or something.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/13/07 at 10:26 pm


Or at least the number showing it are generally in the minority and most of the rest of the population regard them as mental or psycho or something.


I never understood that.

I guess it's because deep down everyone in Europe is a wussy socialist pansy.  ;) ;D

I'm a feverent Nationalist, I suppose that explains a great deal.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Brian06 on 12/13/07 at 10:29 pm


Or at least the number showing it are generally in the minority and most of the rest of the population regard them as mental or psycho or something.


Yeah I meant that it's not as common as it is over here.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: karen on 12/13/07 at 10:43 pm


I never understood that.

I guess it's because deep down everyone in Europe is a wussy socialist pansy.  ;) ;D

I'm a feverent Nationalist, I suppose that explains a great deal.


I think that it is possible to show a pride in your country without being a tosser about it.  Unfortunately groups like the National Front went so OTT that anything vaguely 'nationalistic' is assumed to also be racist.  This makes people wary I think.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/13/07 at 11:24 pm


I think that it is possible to show a pride in your country without being a tosser about it.  Unfortunately groups like the National Front went so OTT that anything vaguely 'nationalistic' is assumed to also be racist.  This makes people wary I think.


Right, I think you make a fair point there.

No, it's not necessary to be a tosser about it.

My rationale is this.

I live in America, thus, when the U.S does things that benefit the country, that's good for me. I think I'm the most important person in the world and unless my needs are satisfied, everybody else in the world can starve or freeze.. or blow me.. whatever. Thus, I want the U.S to do whatever is necessary to ensure that my high standard of living isn't compromised. Pragmatic Nationalism. I don't care what it is, just as long as it's beneficial.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: ultraviolet52 on 12/14/07 at 6:18 pm


This is probably true for the most part, because USA is such a large country that it might as well be like five or six separate countries...but it's kind of funny how if you're like a Californian moving to, I dunno, North Carolina, people think you're special because you came from such a foreign place :D


Been there... Although, I did find most of the North Carolinians to be smarter than I would've thought.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/14/07 at 9:41 pm



I live in America, thus, when the U.S does things that benefit the country, that's good for me. I think I'm the most important person in the world and unless my needs are satisfied, everybody else in the world can starve or freeze.. or blow me...

No fourth option?  You sure?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/tard.gif

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 12/14/07 at 9:45 pm


No fourth option?  You sure?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/tard.gif
indefinite detention without charges? or perhaps they get off with a warning if they demonstrate a Willingness to Rock. http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/03/dazzler1.gif

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: laffytaffy on 12/17/07 at 6:53 am


Maybe 25 years ago.  Communism got beat.  We one.  Uh, won. 


Hey this is way betterer than any mop we eever hed in that there schoolhouse

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/17/07 at 10:10 pm


Hey this is way betterer than any mop we eever hed in that there schoolhouse


Well, I have to admit that China is still technically Communist.  I don't think any sane person would want to use China as a role model for anything though....

As for a nation being a true Communism, I don't think any nation has really remained that way for very long.  Usually, the transition from Communism to dictatorship is very swift.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: McDonald on 12/17/07 at 11:58 pm


Well, I have to admit that China is still technically Communist.  I don't think any sane person would want to use China as a role model for anything though....

As for a nation being a true Communism, I don't think any nation has really remained that way for very long.  Usually, the transition from Communism to dictatorship is very swift.


I don't think any nation really ever has achieved true Communism. According to Marx, Communism would have to be implemented in stages before it would ever be achieved, because it would take literally generations to habituate people to not being greedy and such... The first thing to achieve was Socialism, Communism would be next (or something like that, I don't remember it verbatim). But you're right, if Communism is your goal, you can expect something to go wrong between Socialism and that goal (usually totalitarianism).

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: philbo on 12/18/07 at 4:53 am

Too true: because full Marxist communism requires that people behave in a way which feels to them to be against their best interests, that behaviour initially *has* to be enforced by the State... so you need a totalitarian regime in place to get it all started.  Lenin realized this, which is why he was such a ruthless bastard; however, I believe that Lenin (and possibly Trotsky, were he to have succeeded) could have succeeded in delivering communism that might even have worked.  Stalin, however, had no interest in the good of the people, only in the State and retaining power.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 12/18/07 at 5:23 am

No tai quan su yang (or something like that).

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 12/18/07 at 8:12 pm

China is communist in name only. 

If China is so communist, why isn't the American Right boycotting Wal-Mart for doing business with a communist country. 

The Walton family can make billions off of Chinese imports, but I'm forbidden to fly to Cuba for a suntan?
WTF?
::)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 12/18/07 at 9:50 pm


Well, I have to admit that China is still technically Communist.  I don't think any sane person would want to use China as a role model for anything though....

As for a nation being a true Communism, I don't think any nation has really remained that way for very long.  Usually, the transition from Communism to dictatorship is very swift.


Actually, the nationalistic pragmatism that China exhibits on a daily basis is exactly the direction the U.S needs to be heading in. China has adopted a policy of disjointed incrementalism and it is working.

It dosen't matter if the cat is black or white, all that matters is that he catches the mouse.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 12/18/07 at 10:31 pm


Actually, the nationalistic pragmatism that China exhibits on a daily basis is exactly the direction the U.S needs to be heading in. China has adopted a policy of disjointed incrementalism and it is working.

It dosen't matter if the cat is black or white, all that matters is that he catches the mouse.


Um...  I'm assuming you're being sarcastic.

If not, tell that to the Falun Gong movement.  I suppose it wasn't practical to keep millions of them still alive.  Granted, I guess harvesting their organs was pretty practical.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Don Carlos on 12/19/07 at 4:20 pm

Quite frankly, I haven't read through 14 pages of answers to your very good question, but I'll give my take even though it may repeat what other have said.  Lets start with the idea of US exceptionalism.  This goers back to the pilgrams.  We see ourselves as building a "city on the hill" and we think we did.  In many ways we are exceptional, and from that we get an arrogant attitude.  This leads to a distain for other cultures. 

There is also the immigrant factor.  Most of us are decendants from immigrants who came here seeking a better life, and to achieve it were pretty much forced to assimilate, by which I mean reject the old country culture to a large extent.  This was especially the case with the first generation born here.  As a result, much was lost, although in many cases the second generation did seek their roots.

Last I wouls suggest that being one of, and now the most powerful nations has led us to belive that it is the others who should conform to us, who should know us, and adopt our ways.  I guess this goes back to arrogance.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 12/20/07 at 4:24 am


Quite frankly, I haven't read through 14 pages of answers to your very good question, but I'll give my take even though it may repeat what other have said.  Lets start with the idea of US exceptionalism.  This goers back to the pilgrams.  We see ourselves as building a "city on the hill" and we think we did.  In many ways we are exceptional, and from that we get an arrogant attitude.  This leads to a distain for other cultures. 

There is also the immigrant factor.  Most of us are decendants from immigrants who came here seeking a better life, and to achieve it were pretty much forced to assimilate, by which I mean reject the old country culture to a large extent.  This was especially the case with the first generation born here.  As a result, much was lost, although in many cases the second generation did seek their roots.

Last I wouls suggest that being one of, and now the most powerful nations has led us to belive that it is the others who should conform to us, who should know us, and adopt our ways.  I guess this goes back to arrogance.


This hits very true points.

While we are "buliding the city on the hill", we become detached from the rest of the world.
This leads to arrogance, disdain, and ultimately, a form of xenophobia.
Combine this with being a "superpower" for so long, and you basically have a senile empire that tries to re-live its glory days, while alienating the rest of the world.

....Kind of like how Japan views China- a senile, decadent empire that should have caught up with the times about 300 years ago.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: zane on 01/13/08 at 10:06 am

cycles the US see themselves as number one which makes arrogance off course,when they become number 2 or so then you will see them become interesting,not too long to wait judging by history folks!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 01/13/08 at 12:26 pm


Been there... Although, I did find most of the North Carolinians to be smarter than I would've thought.


North Carolina is a study in extremes.  We have hippy college students, fundamentalist nutjobs, urban street trash, and racist rednecks all in one state.  Then again, you could say the same for probably a lot of states.  We're just best known for our excess of fundamentalists.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/13/08 at 1:35 pm


North Carolina is a study in extremes.  We have hippy college students, fundamentalist nutjobs, urban street trash, and racist rednecks all in one state.  Then again, you could say the same for probably a lot of states.  We're just best known for our excess of fundamentalists.

Sounds like characters for a bar joke!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 01/13/08 at 2:14 pm


Sounds like characters for a bar joke!
or a sixties screwball comedy. north carolina: it's a mad mad mad mad state!

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/13/08 at 2:29 pm


or a sixties screwball comedy. north carolina: it's a mad mad mad mad state!

Ooooh, even better!  Just need a suitcase with a million dollars in it and an ice cream truck plunging off a dock somewhere in there!
:D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Tia on 01/13/08 at 2:34 pm


Ooooh, even better!  Just need a suitcase with a million dollars in it and an ice cream truck plunging off a dock somewhere in there!
:D
i'm also thinking lots of cops pinwheeling their arms and saying "BWO-WHOA-WHOAA!!!" as they fall over backward into swimming pools. and there should probably be a pie fight in there somewhere.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 01/13/08 at 6:44 pm


i'm also thinking lots of cops pinwheeling their arms and saying "BWO-WHOA-WHOAA!!!" as they fall over backward into swimming pools. and there should probably be a pie fight in there somewhere.


The Andy Griffith Show is more accurate of the rural areas of NC.  The urban areas really aren't any different from the urban areas in many other states.  Greensboro (my hometown) is fairly cosmopolitan.  Raleigh and Charlotte are even more so.

One thing that does lean in our favor though is affordability.  Greensboro is one of the cheapest cities to live in that is in the 100,000 to 500,000 population range.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 01/18/08 at 8:12 pm


  I must have been 15 or 16 y/o and we had went out for dinner at Denny's.  My grandfather and I were sitting in a booth and two middle aged ladies were sitting in the adjacent booth.  I forget what we were talking about but I said, pretty loudly, "something something - damn chili-chokers- something something..."  Maybe I was talking about someone at school but I know I raised my voice so people around could hear me...

  So, upon hearing this one of the ladies in the next booth turned to me, excused herself, and began to educate me on the history of California, the role of Hispanic-Americans and their ancestors in the shaping of the American west and their contributions to society.  She never chastised me for what I said, but spoke to me in a vary calm and matter-of-fact manner.  My grandfather, looking-on the entire time, said nothing.  He may have even exchanged a knowing glance with my new teacher...

  I was pretty quiet for the rest of the night...

  Wherever you are, lady, thank you for taking the time...

 

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Macphisto on 01/18/08 at 9:18 pm

'round here, you'd get a few laughs...  lol

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/18/08 at 11:53 pm

Like every other goddam human interaction in this dumbed-down society, the "job interview" is designed by "the experts."  Some "human resources" specialist writes some hocus-pocus mumbo-jumbo and proclaims calls it "prospective personnel inquiry technique" (or some such rubbish) and businesses pay thousands of dollars for their psychobabble seminars.

"What is your biggest weakness" is not a question about personal attributes, it's to check how stupid you are.  Think about it. 

There is another portion of the interview process, usually given by large firms such as Wal-Mart that higher "associates" in batches, which consists of a battery of statements.  The interviewee is instructed to darken the circle as: "Strongly Agree/Agree/Disagree/Strongly Disagree."  The interviewer declares there are "no right or wrong answers."  Of course, anybody with an IQ above room temperature can see that each statement is definitely right or wrong:

"It is better to come to work a little bit high."

"It is sometimes O.K. to question your supervisor."

If you answer either of these questions as other than "strongly disagree," you're an idiot. 

I'm sickened to see this kind of corporate un-thought working its way into political discourse!
::)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Foo Bar on 01/23/08 at 1:24 am

  The interviewee is instructed to darken the circle as: "Strongly Agree/Agree/Disagree/Strongly Disagree."  The interviewer declares there are "no right or wrong answers."  Of course, anybody with an IQ above room temperature can see that each statement is definitely right or wrong:

"It is better to come to work a little bit high."

"It is sometimes O.K. to question your supervisor."

If you answer either of these questions as other than "strongly disagree," you're an idiot. 


Half true.

"It is better to come to work a little bit high." -> Strongly Disagree.  (This can expose your employer to legal liability.)

"It is sometimes O.K. to question your supervisor." -> Weakly Agree.  (This is what's often referred to as a control question.  Although "Strongly agree" may be regarded as exhibiting too much independence for a job, "Strongly Disagree" is infinitely worse -- it tells the test-taker that you're lying).

The most fun catch-22 with respect to control questions. The correct answers vary depending on the job for which you're applying.

For real laughs, just wait'll the job application tests of the 2020s catch up with the Facebook Generation, and the answers can be verified :)

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: Davester on 01/23/08 at 6:45 am




"It is sometimes O.K. to question your supervisor." -> Weakly Agree.  (This is what's often referred to as a control question.  Although "Strongly agree" may be regarded as exhibiting too much independence for a job, "Strongly Disagree" is infinitely worse -- it tells the test-taker that you're lying).



   My gf was an employment supervisor for a private security firm for a short while.  In classes, lectures and workshops she learned one universal and unchanging notion - "The boss is always right".  Don't complain about how former supervisors treated you unfairly/didn't like you/had it in for you &etc.  That's an automatic fail...

   Question the boss...yes I do.  I will question one time and one time only, as a matter of policy to get it on the record thereby facilitating transfer of responsibility from my head to his.  Afterwards, I sit back and watch as 37,000 lbs. of sugar makes it's way into the municipal wastewater treatment plant, or worse, into the environmentally sensitive Carquinez Straight...

   Afterwards, it's always the same song: "Now what were you saying about that valve failure?"  God how I love watching these people screw themselves.  It's where the money shot is...

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 01/23/08 at 4:25 pm

I was once laid over in Raleigh-Durham Airport for over 7 hours.
The extremes bit is right!

I remember waiting for the plane, and hearing the following:

-2 pilots who planned on smoking doobage before their flights took off ("Who cares if we crash? It's all mechanical failure these days, anyway!")

-A baggage handler who was all pissed off at the local Government ("Damn politicians! Why can't they raise the salary of someone who NEEDS it?!?")

-A bartender who insisted on drinking with the customers ("Yeah, I'll have one with ya! What the hell are they gonna do...fire me?")

-2 Runway attendants with "monthly" problems ("I swear if anybody screws with me, I'll delay the plane another hour! They can't blame me. Everything runs f****ng late at an airport!")

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: La Roche on 01/23/08 at 5:39 pm


I was once laid over in Raleigh-Durham Airport for over 7 hours.
The extremes bit is right!

I remember waiting for the plane, and hearing the following:

-2 pilots who planned on smoking doobage before their flights took off ("Who cares if we crash? It's all mechanical failure these days, anyway!")

-A baggage handler who was all pissed off at the local Government ("Damn politicians! Why can't they raise the salary of someone who NEEDS it?!?")

-A bartender who insisted on drinking with the customers ("Yeah, I'll have one with ya! What the hell are they gonna do...fire me?")

-2 Runway attendants with "monthly" problems ("I swear if anybody screws with me, I'll delay the plane another hour! They can't blame me. Everything runs f****ng late at an airport!")


How could you hear the baggage handlers and the pilots? Don't the first guys hang out on the runway and 'behind the scenes' and the pilots hang out in the pilot lounge place.. anyways, you should have reported those pilots, I'm all for the inhalation of vast quantities of gear, but not when one is about to fly a plane.. I'd reckon that's a federal crime.

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 01/23/08 at 6:22 pm


How could you hear the baggage handlers and the pilots? Don't the first guys hang out on the runway and 'behind the scenes' and the pilots hang out in the pilot lounge place.. anyways, you should have reported those pilots, I'm all for the inhalation of vast quantities of gear, but not when one is about to fly a plane.. I'd reckon that's a federal crime.

Sounds like Hawk should write a sit-com pilot.  His would be like "Scrubs" set in an airport instead of a hospital!
:D

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: thereshegoes on 01/23/08 at 7:21 pm


Sounds like Hawk should write a sit-com pilot.  His would be like "Scrubs" set in an airport instead of a hospital!
:D


Can i be Carla? i want to be puerto rican so bad ever since West Side Story. Yes it's true all other cultures adore american movies and "i want to live in America".

Subject: Re: Why ARE Americans so ignorant of other cultures?

Written By: HawkTheSlayer on 01/24/08 at 7:40 pm


How could you hear the baggage handlers and the pilots? Don't the first guys hang out on the runway and 'behind the scenes' and the pilots hang out in the pilot lounge place.. anyways, you should have reported those pilots, I'm all for the inhalation of vast quantities of gear, but not when one is about to fly a plane.. I'd reckon that's a federal crime.


Well, they do walk around the airport, also.
Not just to and from the Pilots' Lounge. In this case, it was in the head.
And I believe the baggage handler had just clocked in.


Sounds like Hawk should write a sit-com pilot.  His would be like "Scrubs" set in an airport instead of a hospital!
:D


Good idea, but I think whoever created "Wings" beat me to the punch.

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