Odd, I do not recall seeing any posts on thsi subject on the board, maybe I missed it.

What are your thoughts?

Here is my take.  Since Hamas "broke the truce" and started lobbing rockets into Israel, Israel is within its rights to counterattack Gaza until the rockets stop.  There are unabashed pro-Palestinian people writing to the newspapers here in the USA calling the Israeli invasion a travesty and a "holocaust" (hey tell us about that 6,000,000 people later), and that Isarel should simply withdraw.

I say poppycock.  Israel has every right to defend itself against the missiles and to destroy Hamas because of it.

Now... Mind you... I am no pro-Israel guy.  If I were President of the United States, Israel would get no aid from the USA.  Not even humanitarian aid until we got a public and effusive apology and reparations for the USS Liberty incident, which was an act of war against our nation.  And I'd tell the Israelis that if I got one more phone call asking to pardon Jonathon Pollard, traitor to the USA, even an apology would not restore the money.  Israel's history is one of racism (well religionism, I suppose), terrorism, and treachery.  Much the same attributes that we rightly place on entities like Hamas and Fatah.

USA has squandered its foreign policy on unconditional support for Isarel, and combined with our former unconditional support for the Sah of Persia, we earned the enmity of the Arab/Muslim world.  If we had kept our noses out of Israel and Persia, we would not have this perception problem that we have now and, quite frankly, the terrorism problem that we have experienced against US interests.

Let 'em all fight it out, winner take all.  And the sooner we get out act on for energy indepoendence, the sooner we won't care who wins.

rumor i hear is that israel actually broke the ceasefire first, a. by continuing an embargo that basically amounts to a military attack on the palestinian civilians and b. by bombing tunnels hamas was using to move arms. now you might say the act of moving arms constitutes hamas breaking of the ceasefire by the palestinians, but i think in order for that to be fair you also have to say israel needs to stop buying arms from the US. during ceasefires both sides consolidate their arsenals, it's just how it works.

and even if hamas did break the ceasefire first, israel pretty much renounced its humanity when it started bombing schools knowing there were civilians inside. that's a sick, sick, SICK thing to do. i know, i know, the stock answer is, it's hamas' fault for hiding among civilians. apparently though there's precious little evidence this last school actually had any militants in it, and in any case, try and imagine yourself in the position of the soldier who fired that mortar that killed 40 people seeking shelter. what was he feeling when he fired that mortar? does he sleep well tonight, do you think? what about the guy who gave the order? i think you pretty much have to abandon all pretense of being a human being in order to command someone to destroy a school filled with civilians. it's the act of a dyed-in-the-wool monster.

i fudging hate israel right now. i think the nazi comparisons are actually fairly apt, more the early, paramilitary nazis than the later industrial ones. the gaza thing has much in common with the starvation and collective torture tactics used in the warsaw ghetto.

i sort-of agree with the last three paragraphs though. except the let-them-fight-it-out stuff. historically, from carter days up through clinton, the US had a very useful role in brokering settlements in the region, and even if they were frustrating, temporary and prone to violations by both sides they saved lives that could otherwise have been lost. hopefully we'll get back to that again. and having said all that i've said, i'm not sure i would stop arms sales to israel entirely. i don't want to see them running roughshod but i wouldn't want to see them overrun, either. their government sucks but that would be a hideous spectacle on the part of the israeli people.

that said, again, the fact that israel can inflict 700 deaths and suffer 10 of its own means they have far too much of an advantage, and we're the ones who gave it to em. scale the arms sales way back and spank em in the security council and they'll hop to. they know they owe their existence to us.

and even if hamas did break the ceasefire first, israel pretty much renounced its humanity when it started bombing schools knowing there were civilians inside. that's a sick, sick, SICK thing to do. i know, i know, the stock answer is, it's hamas' fault for hiding among civilians. apparently though there's precious little evidence this last school actually had any militants in it, and in any case, try and imagine yourself in the position of the soldier who fired that mortar that killed 40 people seeking shelter. what was he feeling when he fired that mortar? does he sleep well tonight, do you think? what about the guy who gave the order? i think you pretty much have to abandon all pretense of being a human being in order to command someone to destroy a school filled with civilians. it's the act of a dyed-in-the-wool monster.



Hamas has chosen to use the entirety of Gaza as its military base.  They hide amongst civilians.  To decide to not "hit them where they are" cedes the battle to Hamas.

Note it was the CIVILIAN POPULATION of Gaza that voted Hamas into power.  And by the way the Hamas rockets are hitting CIVILIAN areas in Israel.

When nations go to war, civilians get killed, there are no Marquess of Queensbury rules.

If Gazans did not want any civilian casualties then they shoulda thrown the Hamas bums out long ago...

Again I am no pro-Isareli guy thats for sure.  But in this case the Israeli incursion is one of self-defense, so I say more power to them.  I'd say the same for ANY country whose sovreignity has been breached militarily... they have the right to self defense, they just better be sure they can win the fights they start.

ISRAEL OUT OF PALESTINE

I smell World War III.

What do I think?  I think this will never end until one side or the other is dead.

What do I think?  I think this will never end until one side or the other is dead.


The reason why my opinion is World War II is because the wars that we were in was the battleground for what will happen. America actually turned its back on Israel and made many deals with The Middle East.

It didn't start with Bush II, but this doesn't mean he's off the hook!

Jimmy Carter-Made Israel and Egypt peaceful Nations, a few months later...Iranian Revolution!
                  Helped Bin Laden fight against the Russians, years later...A Fascist Afghanistani Government!
Ronald Reagan-Iran Contra Scandal which many people may have wanted Reagan's head after that, years later...Iran has Al-Qada working for them!
George H.W. Bush-Made a Cease-Fire on Iraq after Schwarzkof advised Bush not to, years later...Gulf War II.
Bill Clinton-Didn't stop the bomber after an explosion of the WTC, years later...where the fudge's the WTC? Oh yeah...it's not there anymore!
George W. Bush-Look what you have to do now!...And it STILL isn't right!

How it will be done....

After Obama is elected, he'll send U.S. Troops to fight with Israel until negotiations are made.
WWIII will happen once Europe sides on Palestine. This will be a 3-way war, U.S., U.K., and Israel vs. Palestine, Europe, and China vs. Iran, Russia, and India.
The War will probably be over in 2012, that's when the rapture will hit (So if you're wondering where I am once the Rapture hits, I'll be gone)!

I'm not Nostradamus nor can I predict this, but it's bound to come.

Ronald Reagan-Iran Contra Scandal which many people may have wanted Reagan's head after that, years later...Iran has Al-Qada working for them!



Uh... Al Qaeda is a fundamentalist Sunni organization and as such it believes that Shiite Moslems (which is what the Government of Iran consists of, the Ayatollahs are shiite) are the next worst thing to a Jew or a Christian. Iran and Al Qaeda may both be colossal pr*cks, but they are not allies that's fo sho.

Odd, I do not recall seeing any posts on thsi subject on the board, maybe I missed it.


Why bother spawning a thread on yet another skirmish that will lead to yet another stalemate.


What are your thoughts?


Wake me when either side runs out of ammunition or bodies.


Let 'em all fight it out, winner take all.  And the sooner we get out act on for energy indepoendence, the sooner we won't care who wins.


I sympathize with the Israelis on the grounds that the Arabs have been trying to finish off what Hitler started (ordinarily that's a Godwin, but weird-moustache-dude was the reason the Allies drew the lines on the 'map in the aftermath of WW2, and the rest of Europe was only too happy to say "Yeah, give 'em a homeland, let 'em go to the desert, anywhere but here!") since the country was "founded".

But don't mistake sympathy for caring.  I also stopped caring years ago.  The impotent Palestinians will futilely attempt to commit genocide against an overwhelmingly militarily superior regional power, and Israelis will doggedly and futiliely not just rip the band-aid off and put them out of the world's misery.

Here is my take.  Since Hamas "broke the truce" and started lobbing rockets into Israel, Israel is within its rights to counterattack Gaza until the rockets stop.  There are unabashed pro-Palestinian people writing to the newspapers here in the USA calling the Israeli invasion a travesty and a "holocaust" (hey tell us about that 6,000,000 people later), and that Isarel should simply withdraw.

I say poppycock.  Israel has every right to defend itself against the missiles and to destroy Hamas because of it.
Did you know that more people have died on the roads in Israel as a result of them raising speed limits than have died from Hamas rockets?  That is, the differential in deaths on the road over the past 12 months is higher than the number killed by Hamas.

The scale of the overreaction by Israel is sickening in its hypocrisy - it's a cynical attempt to gain enough votes to get reelected by a government that wouldn't have a hope of power without blowing hundreds of civilians to pieces.  If they weren't so completely stupid and blinded by the short term desire for power, they'd realize that their actions are creating the breeding ground for a whole new generation of people whose only desire will be revenge against the people who have blown everything they have known to smithereens.

Not that Hamas are blameless: they equally cynically use their own innocents as shields to hide behind while they fire their toys at Israel.  Who'd be a Palestinian: vote for one corrupt ruling party, and get shafted; vote for a terrorist ruling party, and get shafted even more.

Did you know that more people have died on the roads in Israel as a result of them raising speed limits than have died from Hamas rockets?  That is, the differential in deaths on the road over the past 12 months is higher than the number killed by Hamas.

The scale of the overreaction by Israel is sickening in its hypocrisy - it's a cynical attempt to gain enough votes to get reelected by a government that wouldn't have a hope of power without blowing hundreds of civilians to pieces. 


So what is your point?  As many people are killed by drunk drivers in two months in the USA as were killed in iraq war-to-date.

More Americans are killed in auto accidents each year than the entire Vietnam War.

I do not see the connection of the stats you present.  Hamas is lobbing expolosive missiles into Israeli cities and the IDF is supposed to do nothing?  How does that figure?  I guess none of those middiles fell on your house.  If they did, you would have a different point of view, I suspect.

(Again I state my position as NOT pro-Israeli but in this case they have a case)

So what is your point?  As many people are killed by drunk drivers in two months in the USA as were killed in iraq war-to-date.

More Americans are killed in auto accidents each year than the entire Vietnam War.

I do not see the connection of the stats you present.  Hamas is lobbing expolosive missiles into Israeli cities and the IDF is supposed to do nothing?  How does that figure?  I guess none of those middiles fell on your house.  If they did, you would have a different point of view, I suspect.

(Again I state my position as NOT pro-Israeli but in this case they have a case)
ok, so the choice is either do nothing or systematically and deliberately murder children in mass numbers? i mean the hamas rockets are a joke. the casualty ratio is 70:1. the effect hamas is having tactically is completely negligible.

i guess none of the israeli mortars fell on your kids' schools. we could play this sickening game all day long. fact of the matter is, israel obviously has overwhelming firepower superiority over hamas, and they're using their power to massacre civilians. just like the nazis did in the beginning. i'm starting to think after world war ii, the jews in israel have hungered to inflict that kind of persecution on someone, anyone else, get random revenge. sort of how the US got random revenge in iraq for what happened on 911.

i'm serious. to see a military that purports to represent a civilized country, deliberately targeting schools full of refugees, that is so, so disgusting. it's going to be interesting to see who argues for israel in a year. i think it'll be the sort of thing regular people are embarrassed to do in public. they're fudgeing monsters.

i mean the hamas rockets are a joke. the casualty ratio is 70:1. the effect hamas is having tactically is completely negligible.

Agreed on all three points.  So why do they keep firing them?  Why not change to a militarily useful tactic?

But as a point of fact, the Palestinians are launching (militarily ineffective) attacks from civilian targets.  By doing so, they guarantee that when the retaliatory strike comes in, it hits the civilian target, resulting in civilian deaths, which is a very effective propaganda technique.  Your post is living proof that it's a workable strategy for Hamas, because most people don't seem to understand the difference between aiming at Israeli civilians from behind human shields made up of its own civilians (which is what Hamas effectively does, because it knows missiles are unguided) and accidentally hitting human shields after having aimed at a legitimate military target (which is what the Israelis do, and it's hardly the Israelis fault that the Palestinians choose to shoot from densely-populated civilian areas.)

As for a score of 70:1, the last time I checked, war wasn't supposed to have 1:1 body counts.  Last I checked, war wasn't supposed to be an "Everyone gets a ribbon for participating, and if we must keep score, let's make sure the other team scores the same number of points as we do, so we can all feel like winners!" kind of game.  (If it is, please let me know what nation you're running, so I can immediately launch a series of zerg rushes against it.  Even as my cannon fodder gets shredded by your robot sentry cannons, you're gonna be forced to start machine-gunning your own civilians and troops to keep the score even, right? :)

  i'm starting to think after world war ii, the jews in israel have hungered to inflict that kind of persecution on someone, anyone else, get random revenge. sort of how the US got random revenge in iraq for what happened on 911.


As another point of fact, if the Israelis really wanted to commit genocide at any time since about the 1980s, the war would have been over in 30 minutes, not 30 years.  30 hours, if the Israelis wanted to restrict themselves to conventional weapons.

If you want to talk about strategic bombing of civilian targets, please examine the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo, and return to the debate when you've learned some historical perspective as to what constitutes "revenge".  If you want to talk about genocide, look at what happened in Rwanda, amongst people armed with nothing more than sticks and machetes.

It's one of the great blessings of our times that we can regard ~1000 dead as a "massacre".  In any other age, those sorts of casualties would qualify this as a large skirmish, or a small battle.

Meanwhile, back to what I said upthread.  Wake me when either side runs out of ammunition, bodies, or patience, and decides to end this thing.  Otherwise it's just another weekend in the Middle East.

Agreed on all three points.  So why do they keep firing them?  Why not change to a militarily useful tactic?

because they have no resources. rich people killin' poor people, same as it ever was.

But as a point of fact, the Palestinians are launching (militarily ineffective) attacks from civilian targets.  By doing so, they guarantee that when the retaliatory strike comes in, it hits the civilian target, resulting in civilian deaths, which is a very effective propaganda technique.  Your post is living proof that it's a workable strategy for Hamas, because most people don't seem to understand the difference between aiming at Israeli civilians from behind human shields made up of its own civilians

(which is what Hamas effectively does, because it knows missiles are unguided) and accidentally hitting human shields after having aimed at a legitimate military target (which is what the Israelis do, and it's hardly the Israelis fault that the Palestinians choose to shoot from densely-populated civilian areas.)

lol. who's aiming, dude? the israelis took a straight bead on those schools, and killed those kids in cold blood. hamas is lobbin' hail marys.



As for a score of 70:1, the last time I checked, war wasn't supposed to have 1:1 body counts.  Last I checked, war wasn't supposed to be an "Everyone gets a ribbon for participating, and if we must keep score, let's make sure the other team scores the same number of points as we do, so we can all feel like winners!" kind of game.  (If it is, please let me know what nation you're running, so I can immediately launch a series of zerg rushes against it.  Even as my cannon fodder gets shredded by your robot sentry cannons, you're gonna be forced to start machine-gunning your own civilians and troops to keep the score even, right? :)

i don't in fact see a "war." if there were a "war," the pussy israelis would be fighting an opponent with viable weapons. as far as i can tell, they're using multi-billion-dollar weapons against a tiny tightly populated region tightly packed with innocent people who have no one, least of all hamas, to defend them, and israel, for some inexplicable reason, has decided to slaughter them.

a country with a state-of-the-art army, air force and navy cannot have a "war" with a poorly equipped, ad hoc paramilitary equipped with makeshift, homemade weapons. the word "war" simply does not apply.

As another point of fact, if the Israelis really wanted to commit genocide at any time since about the 1980s, the war would have been over in 30 minutes, not 30 years.  30 hours, if the Israelis wanted to restrict themselves to conventional weapons.

if they really did do that, they would be shut down by the rest of the world in a week or two. i don't doubt that they would slaughter hundreds of thousands of palestinians in the process, and i don't doubt they want to, but they continue to seek the good favors of the US in the security council, so they won't be actually trying to wipe out the population in palestine for the time being.

If you want to talk about strategic bombing of civilian targets, please examine the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo, and return to the debate when you've learned some historical perspective as to what constitutes "revenge".  If you want to talk about genocide, look at what happened in Rwanda, amongst people armed with nothing more than sticks and machetes.

dude, dresden and tokyo were both parts of countries with industrial militaries. palestine is a slum. likening the israeli actions in gaza to the allied bombings of wwii is embarrassing. don't do it.

please make better arguments, man. seriously. dresden and tokyo transparently and obviously do not apply. when was the last time palestine orchestrated a systematic aerial bombardment of a civilian area using state-of-the-art military aircraft that claimed tens of thousands of casualties? when you can think of one, then you can compare the slaughter in gaza to wwii. till then, please think of something else.

please make better arguments, man. seriously. dresden and tokyo transparently and obviously do not apply. when was the last time palestine orchestrated a systematic aerial bombardment of a civilian area using state-of-the-art military aircraft that claimed tens of thousands of casualties? when you can think of one, then you can compare the slaughter in gaza to wwii. till then, please think of something else.


That thing flying over your head isn't a fleet of thousand Lancasters and B-24s, it's my point :)

I wasn't accusing Palestinians of orchestrating a systematic bombardment of civilian areas.  As you correctly point out (and as I pointed out in the first line of my point), their technology is a joke. 

My point was that if Israel were interested in a "slaughter", as you say, it would be in the position of the Brits over Dresden and the Americans over Tokyo.  It would use its overwhelming air superiority to flatten everything in the Gaza strip.  And while the Germans were still fighting back during Dresden, the Japanese air force had all but ceased to exist by the time we were regularly able to bomb Tokyo with imputiny.

To reiterate: given the Israelis' overwhelming conventional superiority, the fact that the bodies can still be counted is testament to the fact that the Israelis are not interested in inflicting mass human casualties. 

I did miss out on the one other way that the conflict could end.  One side actually sacks up and tries Gandhi's approach.  Just lays down their weapons and says "Go for it.  Kill as many of us as you want until you get bored of it."

I think that if the Palestinians went Gandhi, the Israelis would shrug and say "Fine, war's over.  We were bored of it anyway.  Have fun rebuilding your slum."  I think that if the Israelis went Gandhi, the Palestinians would say "Fine, now we kill y'all, then when there's nobody left to kill, we get bored, and then the war's over!"  You appear to think it'd be the other way around; that the Israelis would commit genocide, and the Palestinians would live in peace with their neighbors.

Short of one side actually trying the Gandhi experiment (I ain't holding my breath!), we're not going to get any evidence to change each other's minds on that fundamental disagreement.  So, much like the Mideast war (in which both sides claim, as an axiom, a "divine" revelation that the land belongs to them, from which all policies logically flow), the online debates can go nowhere.

Our disagreement on the fundamental strategic objective of each side is axiomatic; we have each taken as an axiom that the other side is intent on genocide.  My conclusion logically follows as a consequence of my axioms, your conclusion logically follows as a consequence of your axioms.  Which is all well and good, but it's also why I rarely, if ever, get involved in crevolution or mideast threads.  They're a stupid game, because nobody wins, and the only winning move is not to play.

But since I was dumb enough myself into this thread, I'll try the Gandhi approach.  "I'm bored of this game.  You win.  Thread's all yours.  Enjoy it 'till you get bored of it too."

That thing flying over your head isn't a fleet of thousand Lancasters and B-24s, it's my point :)

what? what's your point? i don't understand.

I wasn't accusing Palestinians of orchestrating a systematic bombardment of civilian areas.  As you correctly point out (and as I pointed out in the first line of my point), their technology is a joke. 

My point was that if Israel were interested in a "slaughter", as you say, it would be in the position of the Brits over Dresden and the Americans over Tokyo. 

no, plainly, whenever you engage in mass slaughter, the power of your opponent to retaliate is a part of the issue. germany and japan had power to retaliate. palestine, for all intents and purposes, doesn't. so i continue to not see where the comparison is relevant. israel is beating up on an opponent that has virtually no tactical power. so nice for israel but it has nothing to do with world war ii. apparently israel just likes to kill people.

It would use its overwhelming air superiority to flatten everything in the Gaza strip.  correction: it would use AMERICA'S air superiority, which has been sold to it, to exterminate the people of palestine. and if it did, america would feel the heat of the rest of the world and would quit sending israel military assistance. that is what israel doesn't wipe out palestine. i mean once again, come on. why does israel have all this power? because they're innately superior? because they're god's chosen people in the region? no. because they get billions of dollars of aid from america every year. they are america's proxy in the middle east and they know it, and they won't be committing any "Genocide" against anyone without US consent.

but will they deliberately bomb schools? as long as the sick mentality in the US government under george bush would allow such things. all the US government has to do is pull in the leash and the israelis will come to heel.

what? what's your point? i don't understand.

I wasn't accusing Palestinians of orchestrating a systematic bombardment of civilian areas.  As you correctly point out (and as I pointed out in the first line of my point), their technology is a joke. 

My point was that if Israel were interested in a "slaughter", as you say, it would be in the position of the Brits over Dresden and the Americans over Tokyo. 

no, plainly, whenever you engage in mass slaughter, the power of your opponent to retaliate is a part of the issue. germany and japan had power to retaliate. palestine, for all intents and purposes, doesn't. so i continue to not see where the comparison is relevant. israel is beating up on an opponent that has virtually no tactical power. so nice for israel, they're killing a sheeshload of innocent people and obviously enjoying it a great deal, but it has nothing to do with world war ii. apparently israel just likes to kill people.

i want you to understand why this is so frustrating to me.

as long as people keep making this ridiculous argument that israel is "fighting for its existence" by deliberately targeting schools and civilian shelters, israel will obviously continue to massacre people in schools and civilian shelters.

the people in the USA who argue for the continuance of this foreign policy are actually, literally, helping kill innocent people in significant numbers. they're actively participating in the mass extermination of families. because american money is making this happen. i want you to understand that. if you're pro-israel at this point, you're basically killing kids for fun. enjoy it.

Say, Foo Bar, the only people making the Arabs-Hitler comparison are the American Christian Right, and I know you wouldn't give those doojbags the time o' day, so what's the deal here?

Hitler thought Poland belonged to the Aryans by some sick divine right.  Israel thinks God promised the Jews Palestine.  Who's acting like who here?
::)

So what is your point?  As many people are killed by drunk drivers in two months in the USA as were killed in iraq war-to-date.
Bollocks- as many *Americans*.  I think you've proved that rather like the current US administration, you only think about American lives - other people's just don't count.  No wonder you're capable of such crass insensitivity towards Palestinians.


I do not see the connection of the stats you present.  Hamas is lobbing expolosive missiles into Israeli cities and the IDF is supposed to do nothing?  How does that figure?  I guess none of those middiles fell on your house.  If they did, you would have a different point of view, I suspect.
The point is that the Israeli government doesn't care about keeping its citizens alive: if they did, they'd have spent even a portion of the billions on a road safety campaign that would have saved many times the number of lives taken by Hamas.  But it doesn't gain votes, does it?

What they're doing now isn't going to stop the terrorists, either: on the contrary, they've given the recruiters the best incentives possible.

Should the IDF do nothing?  On balance, it would be a far, far better thing to do from every viewpoint apart from the political "get reelected" one.

Bollocks- as many *Americans*.  I think you've proved that rather like the current US administration, you only think about American lives - other people's just don't count.  No wonder you're capable of such crass insensitivity towards Palestinians.
The point is that the Israeli government doesn't care about keeping its citizens alive: if they did, they'd have spent even a portion of the billions on a road safety campaign that would have saved many times the number of lives taken by Hamas.  But it doesn't gain votes, does it?

What they're doing now isn't going to stop the terrorists, either: on the contrary, they've given the recruiters the best incentives possible.

Should the IDF do nothing?  On balance, it would be a far, far better thing to do from every viewpoint apart from the political "get reelected" one.



BRAVO

And you are right about many Americans thinking it is only the American lives that count.  Drives me crazy.  When there is a multiple loss of life it is always reported as 1235 people and 3 Americans

Bollocks- as many *Americans*.  I think you've proved that rather like the current US administration, you only think about American lives - other people's just don't count.  No wonder you're capable of such crass insensitivity towards Palestinians.
The point is that the Israeli government doesn't care about keeping its citizens alive: if they did, they'd have spent even a portion of the billions on a road safety campaign that would have saved many times the number of lives taken by Hamas.  But it doesn't gain votes, does it?


So you are advocating that the American government should undertake a road safety program here?  After all, more people are killed by cars in the USA than in any of our wars.

Oh wait, more people are killed by cancer.  Hold that road thought, gotta fix cancer first.

Wait again... more people die from heart disease than cancer.  We need to spend that money on heart disease.

Not to worry.  I won't get to die from heart disease because a terrorist just lobbed a bomb at my house, and the government decided to pave the roads instead of protect my nation.

So you are advocating that the American government should undertake a road safety program here?  After all, more people are killed by cars in the USA than in any of our wars.

Oh wait, more people are killed by cancer.  Hold that road thought, gotta fix cancer first.

Wait again... more people die from heart disease than cancer.  We need to spend that money on heart disease.

Not to worry.  I won't get to die from heart disease because a terrorist just lobbed a bomb at my house, and the government decided to pave the roads instead of protect my nation.
i don't know what's worse, the horrifying human toll being exacted by the vile, disgusting israelis in the gaza strip, or the prespammersite, irrational arguments being used to justify them. i mean wtf does any of this have to do with road fatalities or cancer? jesus.

well, obviously, the literal violence is worse. but these arguments are seriously pitiful, man. it's hard, hard, hard to justify deliberately bombing schools, apparently.

i think we're going to find israel's really stepped in it this time. the world's patience for garbage like theirs is really getting thin. at least i hope to god it is.

So you are advocating that the American government should undertake a road safety program here?  After all, more people are killed by cars in the USA than in any of our wars.

Oh wait, more people are killed by cancer.  Hold that road thought, gotta fix cancer first.
Given that millions are being spent trying to work out causes of and cures for cancer already, if the view of the government was that its citizens' lives were its main priority, they'd get the most efficient saving of lives from road safety measures.  But, of course, you'd hate that because it meant the government was interfering in your right to drive your car how you want to, irrespective of the potential for saving lives.



Not to worry.  I won't get to die from heart disease because a terrorist just lobbed a bomb at my house, and the government decided to pave the roads instead of protect my nation.

I know this will be difficult for you, given that you only seem to be able to hold one thought in your mind at one time, but try and work out the relative likelihood of being killed on the road or by a terrorist bombing your house - even if the government was doing nothing about homeland safety at all.

How may terrorist attacks on private houses have there been in the USA, ever?

Haven't researched the figures, but I wouldn't mind betting that more Israelis have been killed by lightning strikes than by Hamas rockets, whatever that would say about their God protecting them.  Anyone want to take the bet?

that's funny, i thought about lightning strikes when i was reading about the hamas rockets, too.

So you are advocating that the American government should undertake a road safety program here? 

Judging from the roads around here, you'd think they had stopped doing so!
:P

Israel's taking over Gaza is not a response to the qassam rockets,it's not a spontaneous operation because Hamas broke cease fire.  Israel isn't afraid of the Hamas, they know how weak and unorganised and so unlike Hezbollah,Hamas truly is.
This military operation was pondered,has been planned for months,it's an act of retaliation and a way of showing their full strenght before the new american administration changes the rules.
What's happening is an act of revenge against acts of revenge. It's a snowball that will never melt. Maybe Macphisto solution will come true sooner than we think,close to 1000 palestinians have died already,close to 5000 wounded. And we watch it on the news and feel so detached...this is so faraway,let's talk about the crisis instead.

Israel's taking over Gaza is not a response to the qassam rockets,it's not a spontaneous operation because Hamas broke cease fire.  Israel isn't afraid of the Hamas, they know how weak and unorganised and so unlike Hezbollah,Hamas truly is.
This military operation was pondered,has been planned for months,it's an act of retaliation and a way of showing their full strenght before the new american administration changes the rules.
What's happening is an act of revenge against acts of revenge. It's a snowball that will never melt. Maybe Macphisto solution will come true sooner than we think,close to 1000 palestinians have died already,close to 5000 wounded. And we watch it on the news and feel so detached...this is so faraway,let's talk about the crisis instead.


apparently it's not just about the new american administration although i think that plays a role, there's also an israeli election coming up and a big part of this is a gambit for votes, in my opinion. i think the iraq war was originally meant to do the same thing for bush but it backfired.

the detachment is almost understandable, since the israelis aren't letting any reporters into the war zone. ugh. all sorts of stuff could be going on there. the rumors about white phosphorus are particularly horrifying, there are photos that look like WP air bursts.

http://images.tvnz.co.nz/tvnz_images/news2009/mideast-palestine/gaza_explosion_2.jpg

white phosphorus is a horrible weapon, tribulations of hell type stuff.

apparently it's not just about the new american administration although i think that plays a role, there's also an israeli election coming up and a big part of this is a gambit for votes, in my opinion. i think the iraq war was originally meant to do the same thing for bush but it backfired.

the detachment is almost understandable, since the israelis aren't letting any reporters into the war zone. ugh. all sorts of stuff could be going on there. the rumors about white phosphorus are particularly horrifying, there are photos that look like WP air bursts.

http://images.tvnz.co.nz/tvnz_images/news2009/mideast-palestine/gaza_explosion_2.jpg

white phosphorus is a horrible weapon, tribulations of hell type stuff.


Yes that's the thing,there are a lot of israelis against it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9DN2Oi0-w
I have a friend who lives in Israel and she tells me how there are so many israelis and palestinians who do get along,who just want peace once and for all.

Yes that's the thing,there are a lot of israelis against it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9DN2Oi0-w
I have a friend who lives in Israel and she tells me how there are so many israelis and palestinians who do get along,who just want peace once and for all.



That's what my friend who lives in Haifa says.  Never mind whose fault it all, it's a drag living with rockets screaming overhead!
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Yes that's the thing,there are a lot of israelis against it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9DN2Oi0-w
I have a friend who lives in Israel and she tells me how there are so many israelis and palestinians who do get along,who just want peace once and for all.

yeah, this subject gets me carried away, i was pointlessly ranting on youtube the other night and some cat came on who lives in israel and was all upset with me because i sorta committed the first fallacy of politics, confusing a country's people with its government. it's the sort of thing i encountered -- though always good-naturedly -- in the uk, when people found out i was american (it's rather obvious) and started talking to me about how much they dislike bush.

another story that really disturbed me about the israel-palestine conflict was the rachel corrie thing in 2002, and right around that time the israeli "refuseniks" got into the news, and i think those guys are heroes. it's a tricky tricky business, a lot of times these are tough israeli kids who want to protect their nation and their family but then they realize what they're really being enlisted to do and they find the courage to refuse to follow inhumane orders. i think the rachel corrie thing was a big part of what broke a lot of israeli rank-and-file military's faith in their government's decisionmaking, but overall the israeli government has this history of wildly overexerting itself in using force against people who can't fight back.

anyway, this is the credo of the refuseniks, they're sorta like the vietnam veterans who turned against the war here (and the iraq vets against the war, too) who went to fight for what they thought was their country's cause but didn't abandon their own spirit and judgment and when they realized the cause their government sent them to fight was unjust, they risked public shame and often jail time and even physical abuse to say, this is my life and i will only sacrifice it for a cause that truly matters.

    *  We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.
    * We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.
    * We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.
    * We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.
    * We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
    * We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
    * We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
    * We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.
    * The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

Perhaps the reason right-wing Americans love Israel so much is their gung-ho imperial brutality.  The British, the French, the Spanish, The Portuguese, the Dutch, The Germans, and other "Western" powers have seen their empires unequivocally crushed at some point in the past 500 years, whether it was the 1940s for the Germans or the 16th century for the Portuguese. 

Americans are still a great bully on the world stage.  So is Israel.

Here is my take.  Since Hamas "broke the truce" and started lobbing rockets into Israel, Israel is within its rights to counterattack Gaza until the rockets stop.  There are unabashed pro-Palestinian people writing to the newspapers here in the USA calling the Israeli invasion a travesty and a "holocaust" (hey tell us about that 6,000,000 people later), and that Isarel should simply withdraw.


Technically, Hamas did not break the truce, but a group that follows them did.  And Hamas (the Government in charge of the region) did nothing to stop it themselves.

Personally, I say "Go for it Israel".  They have a pretty good reputation for following peace treaties, while Hamas has a good reputation of breaking them.  To me it is not much different from when somebody comes up and punches you in the mouth.  But in this case, Hamas is seen as the victum.



rumor i hear is that israel actually broke the ceasefire first, a. by continuing an embargo that basically amounts to a military attack on the palestinian civilians and b. by bombing tunnels hamas was using to move arms. now you might say the act of moving arms constitutes hamas breaking of the ceasefire by the palestinians, but i think in order for that to be fair you also have to say israel needs to stop buying arms from the US. during ceasefires both sides consolidate their arsenals, it's just how it works.

and even if hamas did break the ceasefire first, israel pretty much renounced its humanity when it started bombing schools knowing there were civilians inside. that's a sick, sick, SICK thing to do. i know, i know, the stock answer is, it's hamas' fault for hiding among civilians.


An embargo is not an act of war.  If you follow that twisted logic, Japan had every right to attack the US in 1941.  And the Embargo only involves weapons that are brought through their territory.  Obviously that embargo did not do much good, did it?

And bombing tunnels, that were in violation of a treaty?  Remember, during the last round of talks Hamas swore it would stop shipping arms to the region.  They also swore they would stop the independent groups and solidify military and legal control into themselves.  Instead, they continue to support all of the individual groups that continue to fight for the "Death of Israel".

And Hamas has a long history of housing military operations in "safe areas".  Schools, Mosques, Hospitals, they are all fair game to Hamas.  As are attacking them.

And under every law of war, the moment those types of buildings are used to conduct military operations, they loose all protection.  Period.  So instead of screaming at Israel for attacking them, why not scream at the militants, who are commiting war crimes by useing them for protection?

To Israel, the targets are the militants.  However, to the militants everybody is a target. They break treaties, commit war crimes, and nobody seems to care.

Personally, I believe that the people of Palestine have exactly the Government they deserve.  After all, they put Hamas in charge in the first place.  Maybe someday they will realize that war is not the answer, and give peace a chance.

And for those that scream at Israel, I defy you to say you would act differently if you were in their position.  Let somebody come to my house and attack my wife, I would not care if they were in a church, hospital, or school.  I would still expect the authorities charged with protecting me to settle accounts.

^Please.  This is just a bully's emotional blackmail.  Ceasefires are easy to keep when you get what you want and don't really have change your policies.

Israel has kept has kept Gaza sealed off, blocked humanitarian aide (which they said they would not do), and kept an iron grip on Gaza's ports.  The people of the Gaza strip are living in economic ruin.  They're near starvation.  They can't get medical care.  They're being walled off in apartheid.  What the f**k do you expect them to do? 

Joe the Plumber really is a good symbol of America's attitude here.
::)

Joe the Plumber really is a good symbol of America's attitude here.
::)
cant say i've ever disagreed with you more than i disagree with you here. course i do think JTP is probably standing in effectively for US foreign policy. but as far as i can tell most of "america" would like joe to sit down and shut the fudge up.

Perhaps the reason right-wing Americans love Israel so much is their gung-ho imperial brutality.  The British, the French, the Spanish, The Portuguese, the Dutch, The Germans, and other "Western" powers have seen their empires unequivocally crushed at some point in the past 500 years, whether it was the 1940s for the Germans or the 16th century for the Portuguese. 

Americans are still a great bully on the world stage.  So is Israel.


Max, you know fully well that the Israeli government and its military acts are supported neary unanimously by both sides of the aisle in the USA government.  Dems and Repubs alike have stood shoulder-to-shoulder to support the regime that paid Jonathan Pollard to spy against his own country, and who launched an armed attack against the people of the United States when it attacked the USS Liberty.

However that is "the elephant in the room" here.  If any American politician speaks about against Israel, the Jewish lobby immediately mobilizes to brand the person as an anti-semite.  And since few of our politicians have any real spine, they wither under the character attack instead of standing their ground.

The reason why my opinion is World War II is because the wars that we were in was the battleground for what will happen. America actually turned its back on Israel and made many deals with The Middle East.

It didn't start with Bush II, but this doesn't mean he's off the hook!

Jimmy Carter-Made Israel and Egypt peaceful Nations, a few months later...Iranian Revolution!
                   Helped Bin Laden fight against the Russians, years later...A Fascist Afghanistani Government!
Ronald Reagan-Iran Contra Scandal which many people may have wanted Reagan's head after that, years later...Iran has Al-Qada working for them!
George H.W. Bush-Made a Cease-Fire on Iraq after Schwarzkof advised Bush not to, years later...Gulf War II.
Bill Clinton-Didn't stop the bomber after an explosion of the WTC, years later...where the fudge's the WTC? Oh yeah...it's not there anymore!
George W. Bush-Look what you have to do now!...And it STILL isn't right!

How it will be done....

After Obama is elected, he'll send U.S. Troops to fight with Israel until negotiations are made.
WWIII will happen once Europe sides on Palestine. This will be a 3-way war, U.S., U.K., and Israel vs. Palestine, Europe, and China vs. Iran, Russia, and India.
The War will probably be over in 2012, that's when the rapture will hit (So if you're wondering where I am once the Rapture hits, I'll be gone)!

I'm not Nostradamus nor can I predict this, but it's bound to come.


I see where you're coming from, but for the most part, we've actually been Israel's best friend for a long time.

If anything, I think we're too close to them.

We ought to distance ourselves from Israel and the Middle East in general, and we desperately need to wean ourselves off of foreign oil.

Max, you know fully well that the Israeli government and its military acts are supported neary unanimously by both sides of the aisle in the USA government.  Dems and Repubs alike have stood shoulder-to-shoulder to support the regime that paid Jonathan Pollard to spy against his own country, and who launched an armed attack against the people of the United States when it attacked the USS Liberty.

However that is "the elephant in the room" here.  If any American politician speaks about against Israel, the Jewish lobby immediately mobilizes to brand the person as an anti-semite.  And since few of our politicians have any real spine, they wither under the character attack instead of standing their ground.


The Jewish lobby?  What are YOU an antisemite, huh?  Lemme tell you something, this is exactly how Nazi Germany got started...
;)