» OLD MESSAGE ARCHIVES «
The Pop Culture Information Society...
Messageboard Archive Index, In The 00s - The Pop Culture Information Society

Welcome to the archived messages from In The 00s. This archive stretches back to 1998 in some instances, and contains a nearly complete record of all the messages posted to inthe00s.com. You will also find an archive of the messages from inthe70s.com, inthe80s.com, inthe90s.com and amiright.com before they were combined to form the inthe00s.com messageboard.

If you are looking for the active messages, please click here. Otherwise, use the links below or on the right hand side of the page to navigate the archives.

Custom Search



Subject: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 12:27 am

"This is the way the world ends, This is the way the world ends, This is the way the world ends, Not with a bang but a whimper."

T.S. Eliot

I am posting this here, not because it is political or religious, but because the content can be disturbing.

I am not sure if anybody else is tracking this Swine Flu outbreak, but it is scaring the piss outta me.  And this is a brewing pandemic that could have world wide impact before it is done.

Of all the killers of mankind, war falls far behind famine and disease.  And we are now facing one of the deadliest in history.  H1N1 is a subtype A Influenza virus.  Now some of us are old enough to remember the 1976 Swine Flu outbreak, that turned out to be much ado about nothing.  But this one is already shaping up to be a mass killer.

And if anybody thinks I am being paranoid, look back to 1918.  The Spanish Influenza was actually a form of Swine Flu, and it killed between 10-200 million people.  And that was when the world population was only around 1.7 billion.  That is double the number killed in World War 1.

And with a higher population density, that gives such a disease even more chance to spread.  And this is a virus, so unless a person is innoculated before hand, there is little any medical professional can do once you get sick.  They can keep you hydrated, keep you fed, but that is about it.  Either your body fights it off, or you die.

For a long time I have been tracking viruses, and expected them to be a mass killer.  Ebola was a particular fascination for me, as is HIV.  But Ebola is to fast of a killer, and HIV to slow.

It looks like we finally found a possible mass killer virus.  And I hope they can stop it soon.  But with 10 cases now reported in a New York High School, it is looking like it may already be to late.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 04/27/09 at 1:32 am

Well, that's a rather solipsistic way of looking at it.  The world ain't going anywhere, we are!

There's a number on the wall for each and every one of us.  Something's gonna get me.  It might be swine flu when I'm 40 or Alzheimer's when I'm 90.  Sooner or later, I'm going and not coming back.

No sense in getting in a twist about it.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/grim.gif

Christianity has made of death a terror that was unknown to the gay calmness of Pagans.
- Ouida (Marie Louise de la Ramée 1839--1908)

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: philbo on 04/27/09 at 5:19 am

..not with a bang, but with a-tishoo

The older I get, and the more I think about it, the more I think we have a seriously bad attitude to death: there is a simplistic calculation going on that more people+living longer=better

The planet has an unsustainable long-term growth in population, what do we do about it?

Answer: we try and ameliorate the symptoms (aid for famine, trying to get improved medicine for everyone, trying to keep more people alive for longer) while trying to ignore the problem (more people).

The problem I have is that I don't think that people make good arbiters of who should live and who shouldn't - any way you look at it, humans deciding which humans should live or die is pretty distasteful, and the desire to help people suffering is, well, human.

Maybe an influenza pandemic that kills off x% of people pretty much at random is nature getting its own back in the fairest way it can...

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: LyricBoy on 04/27/09 at 5:56 am

Now I'm gonna be paranoid about travelling in an airplane due to the swine flu.  :-\\

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 6:09 am

folks need to chill. it's basically a regular flu, it's just that it's a new strain so they don't have a vaccine. people get sick, some people die, most don't. like a regular flu. there was a flu outbreak like this about a decade ago, killed a few hundred people then fizzled out.

i mean, yes, okay, this could be the second coming of christ but i think the press is panicking way too much over this. i think after 9/11, katrina, and the economic meltdown they're inclined to see the apocalypse in every new negative event. and frankly it's getting a bit irritating.

and i'm noticing the anti-immigrant crowd is much more up in arms about it because of COURSE the mexicans are going to end the world! with all their dirty germs and whatnot! i definitely see an ideological component to it, alex jones is all over how it's gonna be the end of us all and he's all crazy militant about border enforcement. not a coincidence. ditto GWBush2004 on our very own board.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 6:27 am


The older I get, and the more I think about it, the more I think we have a seriously bad attitude to death: there is a simplistic calculation going on that more people+living longer=better

The planet has an unsustainable long-term growth in population, what do we do about it?


I agree with much of what you said.  To me, it is something that has happened all to often in world history.  Look back at the various plagues, the black death, small pox, measles, spanish flu, and so many others.  Whenever population densities get to high, eventually along comes mother nature to restore a ballance.

I believe that we have overpopulated our planet.  A lot of nations can't even feed themselves anymore.  And things are only getting worse, not better.  Something needs to change.  And more and more recently, it seems to be disease.

Over the past 40 years, rainforest diseases have been "breaking out" in increasing numbers.  HIV, Ebola, Simian Hemorrhagic Fever, Lassa, Marburg Hemorrhagic Fever, even AIDS show all the signs of being Rainforest diseases.  They all have unknown vectors, are deadly viruses, mutate easily, and strike with little or no warning.

In short, the world is overdue for a global pandemic of epic proportion.  It has been so long since a disaster of this scale that most people alive can't even consider it.  Just think about this.  In 1918-1919, between 10 and 200 million died.  That was with a population of under 2 billion.

If the same percentage died today, that would be 30-600 million dead.  If that was only confined to the US, that would be between 10%-100% of the population of the United States.  At the lesser amount, that is still the entire population of Texas and Arizona.  At the upper, every man, woman, and child in the country.


Now I'm gonna be paranoid about travelling in an airplane due to the swine flu.  :-\\


Tell me about it.  I am getting on a plane at the end of the week, and flying back to El Paso.  Then 2 weeks later I get to fly back here to Qatar.  This is just one more thing for me to worry about.

Oh, and to close on a somewhat lighter note:

http://www.ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?id=2310

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Philip Eno on 04/27/09 at 6:30 am


Now I'm gonna be paranoid about travelling in an airplane due to the swine flu.  :-\\
Starting in Mexico and effecting the world, seems to be like ordinary flu, but can be worse. Just avoid people who are sneezing.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 6:39 am


folks need to chill. it's basically a regular flu, it's just that it's a new strain so they don't have a vaccine. people get sick, some people die, most don't. like a regular flu. there was a flu outbreak like this about a decade ago, killed a few hundred people then fizzled out.


Actually, it is not just a regular flu.  This is much worse.

The Spanish Influenza that came at the end of World War I was devistating.  And it was Influenza A virus subtype H1N1.  That places it in the same family as the Avian and Swine flu.  H1N1 is a subsect of type A which has proven to be highly mutateable.

This current outbreak is also Influenza A virus subtype H1N1.  H1N1 was also responsible for an outbreak in Russia in 1889-1890 that killed over 1 million people in that country.  If this develops into a pandemic, it will ignore national boundries.

And the fact that the outbreak is starting in Mexico means nothing.  With modern air travel, it could have started in Tibet, but only became noticeable when it either hit a virgin field, or mutated in the presence of a higher population density.

One thing that worries me is the people it is striking the hardest.  In most flu outbreaks, those that die off first and in the highest numbers are the young, sick, and elderly.  In this one, just like the Spanish Flu, it is the young and healthy it is targeting most.

The "Annual Flu" is either Influenzavirus A subtype H3N2 or Influenzavirus B, very different then H1N1.  This is the first outbreak of an H1N1 virus since 1918.  And it is breaking out into a virgin field.  Think of the effect Chicken Pox had on the American Indians.  This may be similar, but on a global scale.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 6:45 am

^and you would explain the stunningly low fatality rates everywhere except mexico (and in mexico it's still only six percent) how?

the "pandemic" thing is a bit misleading these days. back in the 1910s, for a disease to go global was a big deal because it became so dense at its place of origin that it managed to traverse rather spare international commerce and travel routes. now, with so much globalization, it's very easy for a disease to become a "pandemic" and says nothing necessarily about its severity.

and actually, no, i saw a story about there are very specific pigfarming practices in mexico that are specifically suspected in being the origin of the disease. there's a reason it started in mexico, and we'll be hearing more on that from the anti-immigration crowds in the near future. you can be sure of that.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 6:56 am

also, the bit about it targeting 25-45 year olds is only really scary if it's targeting everybody and it's not only the very young and very old who DIE from it. if it's targeting everyone and young adults start DYING from it, then that's frightening because that means it's defeating otherwise healthy immune systems.

if it's mainly targeting 25-45 year olds but most of them are surviving, then that's an interesting fact worth studying but it says nothing in itself about the disease's virulence. i actually think this is probably a matter of the mainstream media getting their signals crossed; regular flus target all ages but i think they confused contraction with fatal instance and got their panties in a bunch over nothing. in all likelihood the disease is targeting all ages and the mainstream media, because it can't find its ass with two hands, got this confused with the fact that a high fatality rate among young adults IS disturbing, and went to press with a half-truth that had the benefit of being able to sow hysteria and boost ratings. plus they just don't know what the fudge they're doing.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: philbo on 04/27/09 at 7:00 am

Just seen this... kind of on-topic:

Webcams inside and outside the Large Hadron Collider

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Philip Eno on 04/27/09 at 7:01 am

The only survivors will be insects ?

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 7:09 am

and as for H1N1 being the end of the world...

H1N1 is a subtype of the species influenza A virus. The "H" refers to the hemagglutinin protein, and the "N" refers to the neuraminidase protein. H1N1 has mutated into various strains including the Spanish Flu strain (now extinct in the wild), mild human flu strains, endemic pig strains, and various strains found in birds. A variant of H1N1 was responsible for the Spanish flu pandemic that killed some 50 million to 100 million people worldwide from 1918 to 1919. A different variant exists in pig populations.

Low pathogenic H1N1 strains still exist in the wild today, causing roughly half of all flu infections in 2006.

it appears the strain is responsible for spanish flu, yes, but is also responsible for "mild human flu strains." so just because it's H1N1 doesn't mean it's the next plague of locusts. given the fatality rates outside of mexico (i.e., zero, as far as i've heard) i'm inclined to think this is a mild strain until i hear otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1N1

in fact, i'm a little suspicious over how much panic is being fomented over this in the media.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 7:12 am


Just seen this... kind of on-topic:

Webcams inside and outside the Large Hadron Collider
;D

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Philip Eno on 04/27/09 at 7:15 am


Just seen this... kind of on-topic:

Webcams inside and outside the Large Hadron Collider
It is about now (in the spring) when it was to be switched on again.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 7:18 am


It is about now (in the spring) when it was to be switched on again.
well, good, it will blow up the universe and save us from having to die of the flu, the collapsed economy, peak oil, global warming, global terrorism, the delayed-action y2k bug, the dying oceans, that asteroid i'm sure is headed straight for us, school shootings, and Planet Nibiru.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 7:23 am


^and you would explain the stunningly low fatality rates everywhere except mexico (and in mexico it's still only six percent) how?

the "pandemic" thing is a bit misleading these days. back in the 1910s, for a disease to go global was a big deal because it became so dense at its place of origin that it managed to traverse rather spare international commerce and travel routes. now, with so much globalization, it's very easy for a disease to become a "pandemic" and says nothing necessarily about its severity.

and actually, no, i saw a story about there are very specific pigfarming practices in mexico that are specifically suspected in being the origin of the disease. there's a reason it started in mexico, and we'll be hearing more on that from the anti-immigration crowds in the near future. you can be sure of that.


This flu is just starting.  The Index case was identified on 18 March 2009.  And in the month since then, over 1,000 cases have been reported in Mexico alone.  And cases are confirmed in the US (5 states, 20 confirmed and over 200 suspected), and Spain.  Suspected cases in Brazil, Columbia, Chile, UK, France, New Zeland, and the Middle East.

And a fatality rate of 6% is no joke.  And with rapid global travel, diseases like this can spread world wide before quarentine measures can be put in place.  

As for how or where the disease developed, there are a few theories.  One is that an Avian version of H1N1 mutated and was spread by insects.  But in reality, we will probably never know.  And it does not really matter.  They have been looking for the vector for Ebola for over 30 years, and have yet to find it.  They only suspect the vector for HIV because versions of the disease have been found in the wild.

Global fatality of the Spanish Flu varies, but most place it at 2.5-5%.  And between 20-50% of the population caught the disease.  Imagine those numbers today, with 3 times the population.

This is not a pandemic yet, but the potential is there.  Especially when you have a lot of nations that have a history of under-reporting cases.  

And here is an article from New Scientist:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17025-deadly-new-flu-virus-in-us-and-mexico-may-go-pandemic.html

It says:

The virus's severity will depend on how many people who catch it die. While suspect deaths in Mexico are being tested for H1N1, is not yet known how many mild cases of virus there may have been in the affected region that have gone untested. Both numbers are needed to calculate how deadly a case might be. One ominous sign, however, is that the Mexican cases are said to be mainly young adults, a hallmark of pandemic flu.

It can transmit among people. Those infected in the US had no known contact with pigs, and the three separate clusters of cases did not contact each other. This suggests, said Besser, that "this virus has already been transmitted from person to person, for several cycles", making it too late for emergency antiviral drugs to contain its spread to a limited area.

***

This may not be the "Captain Trips" from The Stand, but it is something to be worried about.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 7:27 am


in fact, i'm a little suspicious over how much panic is being fomented over this in the media.


Well, I can assure you that the US Military is taking it quite seriously.

One of my jobs is putting together the Morning Briefing Reports for my Battalion.  And our S-2 section has been tracking this.  And for longer then the media has been talking about it.  And a lot of them are taking serious note.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 8:13 am


Well, I can assure you that the US Military is taking it quite seriously.

One of my jobs is putting together the Morning Briefing Reports for my Battalion.  And our S-2 section has been tracking this.  And for longer then the media has been talking about it.  And a lot of them are taking serious note.
well, okay, thanks for the false appeal to authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

you do this one an awful lot.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 8:16 am

This may not be the "Captain Trips" from The Stand, but it is something to be worried about.
im not saying it's not somthing to be worried about, but the degree of panic i'm seeing at the moment is totally overblown, in my opinion.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: philbo on 04/27/09 at 8:30 am


im not saying it's not somthing to be worried about, but the degree of panic i'm seeing at the moment is totally overblown, in my opinion.

There's no point in panicking or getting unduly worried unless/until people around you start sneezing and dropping dead...

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 8:41 am


well, okay, thanks for the false appeal to authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

you do this one an awful lot.


Fine, here are some more then:

CDC&P
http://www.kansascity.com/438/story/1163324.html

Cuba's Ministry of Health
http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/8440/

World Health Organization
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103517402

Oh and of course the claims that this was all done by USAMRIID and the US Government
http://www.prisonplanet.com/is-swine-flu-a-biological-weapon.html

Interesting thing about "appeal to authority".  I do not use it as my argument, only as an example at how seriously it is being taken.  I am rather cut-off from "mainstream news" if you did not know.  No Fox, no CNN, just what I am able to make out from what I read in Stars & Stripes and from internet news sources.  And of course from my unit's own briefings and information packets.

To give an idea, I can tell you more about the North Korea missile launch then I can about the NCAA playoffs.  I can tell you more about the state of readiness of Iranian forces then I can the NFL draft.  I can tell you more about the Swine Flu outbreak then I can about the price of gasoline in the US.

I am not saying that simply because the Military is taking it serious that it is the end of the world.  Nothing may come of this.  But it is a fact that it is being taken serious.  Or would you feel better if they said "there is nothing to worry about"?


There's no point in panicking or getting unduly worried unless/until people around you start sneezing and dropping dead...


Oh, that sounds familiar.

"Oh, there is no reason to worry about this AIDS thing.  It only affects queers and druggies."

I am not encouraging panic.  However, I am encouraging caution.  Wash your hands frequently, eat at home when possible, avoid contact with people who may be sick, avoid large crowds.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 8:44 am

Oh, that sounds familiar.

"Oh, there is no reason to worry about this AIDS thing.  It only affects queers and druggies."
right, or, "there is no reason to worry about this global warming thing, twenty years ago the hippies all thought we were going into another ice age.

i gotta be honest with you, i've got panic burnout. we've had 9/11, WMDs in iraq, katrina, global economic collapse and now this. personally i'm a bit fed up with everyone serially flying into a panic.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 8:48 am

Oh and of course the claims that this was all done by USAMRIID and the US Government
http://www.prisonplanet.com/is-swine-flu-a-biological-weapon.html
as someone who never met a conspiracy theory i didn't like, i have to chuckle at this one. i mean the alex jones set have been going on and on about how the global elite wants to establish a north american union and dissolve national borders, so why in eff would they manufacture an epidemic that's going to get people clamoring to close the southern border? makes no sense. if this is a manufactured bug it's much more likely the militias or the minutemen came up with it. not that they'd have the expertise.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 8:49 am

 I am rather cut-off from "mainstream news" if you did not know.  No Fox, no CNN, just what I am able to make out from what I read in Stars & Stripes and from internet news sources.  i just use internet sources too. who in their right mind would use fox or CNN for news? that's not their line of work.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 8:55 am

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/campfema_dees.jpg

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: philbo on 04/27/09 at 9:00 am


Oh, that sounds familiar.

"Oh, there is no reason to worry about this AIDS thing.  It only affects queers and druggies."

I am not encouraging panic.  However, I am encouraging caution.  Wash your hands frequently, eat at home when possible, avoid contact with people who may be sick, avoid large crowds.

So when I say "there's no point in panicking", you take issue with it.. then go on to say you're not encouraging panic. OK.

I'm with Tia in that I've got panic burnout: even at its very, very worst, this isn't going to be the end of the world - it's not even going to cause more than the most temporary blip on the ever-increasing graph line of world population.

Especially after the Avian Flu brouhaha of a couple of years ago.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 9:30 am

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/swine-flu.jpg

peek-a-boo!

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Jessica on 04/27/09 at 10:00 am


This flu is just starting.


Uh no, it's not.  In another of the many threads started about this, I cited CDC research that shows at least 12 cases popping up between 2005 and 2009 in the US.  No one died from it.  In 1988, a pregnant woman in Wisconsin got it, and yes, unfortunately she died.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Jessica on 04/27/09 at 10:02 am


It is about now (in the spring) when it was to be switched on again.


Nope.  I've been following it forever.  The earliest start up date is September because they have barely finished replacing the magnets.  Now they have to cool it down, and that takes awhile.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 10:30 am

an interesting if rather discouraging article on what's probably the source of this new epidemic. unsurprisingly, it's of a kin with mad cow and any number of new ailments being created by inhumane conditions at slaughterhouses and concentration-camp-style breeding farms. the fact that this started in mexico isn't a matter of chance -- as mushroom falsely says -- but it also isn't about the nation so much as the policies of BigAg, which puts efficiency and brutality ahead of public health.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/27/swine-flu-mexico-health

In 1965, for instance, there were 53m US hogs on more than 1m farms; today, 65m hogs are concentrated in 65,000 facilities. This has been a transition from old-fashioned pig pens to vast excremental hells, containing tens of thousands of animals with weakened immune systems suffocating in heat and manure while exchanging pathogens at blinding velocity with their fellow inmates.


Last year a commission convened by the Pew Research Center issued a report on "industrial farm animal production" that underscored the acute danger that "the continual cycling of viruses … in large herds or flocks increase opportunities for the generation of novel virus through mutation or recombinant events that could result in more efficient human to human transmission." The commission also warned that promiscuous antibiotic use in hog factories (cheaper than humane environments) was sponsoring the rise of resistant staph infections, while sewage spills were producing outbreaks of E coli and pfiesteria (the protozoan that has killed 1bn fish in Carolina estuaries and made ill dozens of fishermen).

Any amelioration of this new pathogen ecology would have to confront the monstrous power of livestock conglomerates such as Smithfield Farms (pork and beef) and Tyson (chickens). The commission reported systemic obstruction of their investigation by corporations, including blatant threats to withhold funding from cooperative researchers .

This is a highly globalised industry with global political clout. Just as Bangkok-based chicken giant Charoen Pokphand was able to suppress enquiries into its role in the spread of bird flu in southeast Asia, so it is likely that the forensic epidemiology of the swine flu outbreak will pound its head against the corporate stonewall of the pork industry.

This is not to say that a smoking gun will never be found: there is already gossip in the Mexican press about an influenza epicentre around a huge Smithfield subsidiary in Veracruz state. But what matters more (especially given the continued threat of H5N1) is the larger configuration: the WHO's failed pandemic strategy, the further decline of world public health, the stranglehold of big pharma over lifeline medicines, and the planetary catastrophe of industrialised and ecologically unhinged livestock production.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 10:36 am


Uh no, it's not.  In another of the many threads started about this, I cited CDC research that shows at least 12 cases popping up between 2005 and 2009 in the US.  No one died from it.  In 1988, a pregnant woman in Wisconsin got it, and yes, unfortunately she died.


True, but there are also many different strains of Swine Flu.  Much like there are many different strains of HIV.

The danger is that the strain causing the problem (H1N1) is very prone to mutations.  You frequently have outbreaks world wide, but they rarely cross over to infect humans.  And most of the time they do, they are not particularly fatal.

This is in many ways similar to HIV.  HIV-2 is actually the originator virus, but it was discovered much later.  The disease was originally from primates (most likely chimps), and eventually traveled to humans through either eating undercooked meat, or a bite.  At that time the disease had an incubation of 15-20 years.  It probably first crossed over around the turn of the century.

In the 1940's, there were regions of the Congo that people suffered under what they called "The Thin Disease".  But with an average lifespan of 40-45 years, people did not seem to die much earlier then before.  The first European case was in 1959, and once this disease struck an area with higher population density and more natural immunities, it adapted.  The European "Index Case" probably got infected in 1955-1966.  And between 1959-1976, at least 6 others are known to have died from the disease.

If not for being carried to Europe, HIV would likely have remained a curious regional disease.  But it "broke out", and became what we know today.  There are 2 major and 17 minor subtypes of HIV.  There are now 93 recognized mutations of the HIV virus.

This is the biggest worry I have about this outbreak.  We are dealing with a virus that has a propensity to mutate.  It's predicessors are known to be highly virulent and deadly.

However, this may be simply another case of 1976, where it quickly burns itself out.  Heaven help us if we have a repeat of 1918.


So when I say "there's no point in panicking", you take issue with it.. then go on to say you're not encouraging panic. OK.

I'm with Tia in that I've got panic burnout: even at its very, very worst, this isn't going to be the end of the world - it's not even going to cause more than the most temporary blip on the ever-increasing graph line of world population.


That is true.  After all, before this last week or so, how many people knew of the Spanish Influenza outbreak in 1918?  It came on the heels of World War I, and many believe it was spread through the US by returning veterans from the trenches of that war.  But comming on the heels of an international war, it was quickly forgotten.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 10:47 am


True, but there are also many different strains of Swine Flu.  Much like there are many different strains of HIV.

The danger is that the strain causing the problem (H1N1) is very prone to mutations.  You frequently have outbreaks world wide, but they rarely cross over to infect humans.  And most of the time they do, they are not particularly fatal.
sorta like this one, with the exception of the cases in mexico, yes? so unless things change, the real question is why mexico is presenting this different case. is it because of urban sanitary conditions? something different they're doing with regard to treatment? some other pathogen that's interacting with the swine flu? or maybe the further it gets from the source the less virulent becomes -- i.e., the people contracting it in mexico are more likely to have gotten directly from one of these infected pigs on one of these smithfield farms or from a person who got it that way. so it's possible that the more human-to-human transmissions occur, and the further it gets generationally from the source, the less virulent the virus. that would account for what we're seeing, in fact. i wonder if anyone's come up with that theory.

anyway, until people start dying elsewhere i'm gonna keep thinking there's something unique in the mexico outbreak that's making this worse for them. things could change, of course.

After all, before this last week or so, how many people knew of the Spanish Influenza outbreak in 1918?  um, a lot?

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/27/09 at 10:49 am


the fact that this started in mexico isn't a matter of chance -- as mushroom falsely says -- but it also isn't about the nation so much as the policies of BigAg, which puts efficiency and brutality ahead of public health.


I find it interesting that you did not include the paragraph above to start:

But what caused this acceleration of swine flu evolution? Virologists have long believed that the intensive agricultural system of southern China is the principal engine of influenza mutation: both seasonal "drift" and episodic genomic "shift". But the corporate industrialisation of livestock production has broken China's natural monopoly on influenza evolution. Animal husbandry in recent decades has been transformed into something that more closely resembles the petrochemical industry than the happy family farm depicted in school readers.

It is true, modern agriculture with it's "huge amounts of animals in a pen and fed garbage" is much more likely to create mutant strains of diseases.  Much the same way that China and Europe were more likely to suffer epidemics then the American Indians.  There is a connection to filth, crowded living conditions, and disease.  You are much more likely to see a disease mutate and spread in New York or Moscow then you will in Podunk, Alabama.

There is no question that this is spreading from Mexico.  But the same conditions exist in China, United States, Japan, Germany, and in most other industrialized nations.  Where free range feeding of animals has given way to high density pens and stock feeding.  And not just in pigs, but in poultry also.

Once again, it goes back to population density.  For those that believe in the Gaia Hypothesis, this can be seen as the Earth fighting back against the infection and damage caused by to many humans.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 10:55 am


I find it interesting that you did not include the paragraph above to start:
why? i didn't want to quote the entire article.

the point of the article seems to be that regulation is even more lax in mexico than in the United States and in other industrialized western nations. i acknowledge similar agricultural conditions exist in the industrial west when i talk about mad cow (the UK) but it sounds like the chinese agricultural practices of yore were similarly malthusian, just pre-industrial, so they in a sense provided a model for the concentration-camp style farms we see now in BigAg.

personally i'd like to see a return to old-style independent farming, to the extent it can support a population our size. the choice appears to be either that, or look forward to more and more bizarre illness as livestock packed in unlivable conditions become petri dishes for new diseases the likes of which we haven't imagined.

man, tempted to go veggie at the moment. or at least all-organic.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Jessica on 04/27/09 at 11:14 am


True, but there are also many different strains of Swine Flu.  Much like there are many different strains of HIV.

The danger is that the strain causing the problem (H1N1) is very prone to mutations.  You frequently have outbreaks world wide, but they rarely cross over to infect humans.  And most of the time they do, they are not particularly fatal.

This is in many ways similar to HIV.  HIV-2 is actually the originator virus, but it was discovered much later.  The disease was originally from primates (most likely chimps), and eventually traveled to humans through either eating undercooked meat, or a bite.  At that time the disease had an incubation of 15-20 years.  It probably first crossed over around the turn of the century.

In the 1940's, there were regions of the Congo that people suffered under what they called "The Thin Disease".  But with an average lifespan of 40-45 years, people did not seem to die much earlier then before.  The first European case was in 1959, and once this disease struck an area with higher population density and more natural immunities, it adapted.  The European "Index Case" probably got infected in 1955-1966.  And between 1959-1976, at least 6 others are known to have died from the disease.

If not for being carried to Europe, HIV would likely have remained a curious regional disease.  But it "broke out", and became what we know today.  There are 2 major and 17 minor subtypes of HIV.  There are now 93 recognized mutations of the HIV virus.

This is the biggest worry I have about this outbreak.  We are dealing with a virus that has a propensity to mutate.  It's predicessors are known to be highly virulent and deadly.

However, this may be simply another case of 1976, where it quickly burns itself out.  Heaven help us if we have a repeat of 1918.

That is true.  After all, before this last week or so, how many people knew of the Spanish Influenza outbreak in 1918?  It came on the heels of World War I, and many believe it was spread through the US by returning veterans from the trenches of that war.  But comming on the heels of an international war, it was quickly forgotten.


Disregarding all the other stuff you typed, I will focus on your reference of the 1918 influenza outbreak.  You're forgetting that this was almost 100 years ago, conditions were not as sanitary as they are now, and there weren't a lot of advances in science re: combatting common cold/flu.

Sorry to say, but I think you ARE in panic mode and you ARE trying to spread this panic.  I see no other motive behind starting this thread than to try and freak people out about it.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: CatwomanofV on 04/27/09 at 11:45 am


..not with a bang, but with a-tishoo

The older I get, and the more I think about it, the more I think we have a seriously bad attitude to death: there is a simplistic calculation going on that more people+living longer=better

The planet has an unsustainable long-term growth in population, what do we do about it?

Answer: we try and ameliorate the symptoms (aid for famine, trying to get improved medicine for everyone, trying to keep more people alive for longer) while trying to ignore the problem (more people).

The problem I have is that I don't think that people make good arbiters of who should live and who shouldn't - any way you look at it, humans deciding which humans should live or die is pretty distasteful, and the desire to help people suffering is, well, human.

Maybe an influenza pandemic that kills off x% of people pretty much at random is nature getting its own back in the fairest way it can...



I agree with you on this. If you look at Nature, it happens all the time. When deer herds get too big, Nature has a way of thinning it out. The same thing for humans, too. However, we humans have a way of trying to stop it with medication and such.



Cat

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: MrCleveland on 04/27/09 at 2:29 pm

Maybe 2012 will be the time that everyone in America dies.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/27/09 at 2:42 pm

you know how sometimes people pretend to sneeze and say "bulls**t"? i'm gonna start saying "*swineflu!*" every time i sneeze.

for a while after 9/11 i used to like to say "saringas!" every time someone accidentally dropped a glass at a bar. good times!

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Marian on 04/27/09 at 4:30 pm


True, but there are also many different strains of Swine Flu.  Much like there are many different strains of HIV.

The danger is that the strain causing the problem (H1N1) is very prone to mutations.  You frequently have outbreaks world wide, but they rarely cross over to infect humans.  And most of the time they do, they are not particularly fatal.

This is in many ways similar to HIV.  HIV-2 is actually the originator virus, but it was discovered much later.  The disease was originally from primates (most likely chimps), and eventually traveled to humans through either eating undercooked meat, or a bite.  At that time the disease had an incubation of 15-20 years.  It probably first crossed over around the turn of the century.

In the 1940's, there were regions of the Congo that people suffered under what they called "The Thin Disease".  But with an average lifespan of 40-45 years, people did not seem to die much earlier then before.  The first European case was in 1959, and once this disease struck an area with higher population density and more natural immunities, it adapted.  The European "Index Case" probably got infected in 1955-1966.  And between 1959-1976, at least 6 others are known to have died from the disease.

If not for being carried to Europe, HIV would likely have remained a curious regional disease.  But it "broke out", and became what we know today.  There are 2 major and 17 minor subtypes of HIV.  There are now 93 recognized mutations of the HIV virus.

This is the biggest worry I have about this outbreak.  We are dealing with a virus that has a propensity to mutate.  It's predicessors are known to be highly virulent and deadly.

However, this may be simply another case of 1976, where it quickly burns itself out.  Heaven help us if we have a repeat of 1918.

That is true.  After all, before this last week or so, how many people knew of the Spanish Influenza outbreak in 1918?  It came on the heels of World War I, and many believe it was spread through the US by returning veterans from the trenches of that war.  But comming on the heels of an international war, it was quickly forgotten.
My lat,e grandmother was born in january,1919,and apparently she ,her parents,and six older siblings all survived being arou.nd then.not sure if any were actually exposed.My grandmother lived until December 17,2009,a month and 4 days shy of her 90th birthday.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Foo Bar on 04/27/09 at 11:46 pm

Every strain of the flu is prone to mutations.  H1N1 has made the jump from pig to human (again), just as H5N1 made the jump from bird to human. Turns out that the genes for virulence tend to burn themselves out pretty quickly.

You're right to be wary of this latest mutation. You're also right to be stocking up on masks, gloves, and what-not. These are inexpensive first-aid supplies that could be useful in any emergency

You're overreacting at present.  There's plenty of evidence to suggest sustained human-to-human transmission, there's minimal evidence to indicate airborne transmission, and there's minimal evidence to indicate virulence comparable to the 1918 variant.  At present, it's resistant to two of the three major antivirals (amantadine and rimantadine), but sensitive to oseltamivir (Tamiflu).

If we start seeing it in environments where viruses with the H274Y sequence (correlation to Tamiflu resistance) exist in the pig, bird, or human populations, and the Mexican variant of H1N1 somehow manages to pick up that sequence by infecting a person already infected with a Tamiflu-reistant strain, and it manages to subsequently mutate into a version which can spread via air (coughing), as opposed to physical contact, and it manages to be sufficiently virulent ("virulence" being loosely defined as the ability to kick off the cytokine storm that preferentially kills young/healthy patients over infants/elderly/immunocompromised patients) -- if you get all three of those things: resistance to the last remaining antiviral, airborne transmission, and virulence -- then, and only then, are you looking at a 1918/end-of-the-world scenario. And even then it's far from a sure thing.

WHO just went to  Pandemic Level 4 tonight.  IMNSHO, they should be at 5, and I'm betting they go to 6 within the month.  I'm also betting (with real money) that it gets one (but not two, and not all three) of the criteria I outlined in that last paragraph.  Tens of millions infected, a few thousand dead, but we're talking about a virus that kills 20,000 people per year as a baseline.  Biggest economic impact is gonna be with pork producers, who might wind up bankrupt -- but if its spread can be limited, you're gonna wanna buy those stocks too.  (I'm kicking myself for not having bought NVAX on Friday, the news was out, the stock had broken to new highs, but the panic hadn't had an entire weekend of media hysteria to feed, and the friggin' stock tripled on Monday's open.  Easy money, and I left it all on the table.)

Anyone following this story should spend a few hours playing Pandemic 2.  Not only will you learn the basics of epidemiology, you'll have more fun than you ever thought possible.  Even with the benefit of an intelligent designer (namely you, the player, deciding which characteristics you'd like your germ-of-choice to acquire so as to most-efficiently wipe out all of humanity!), it's bloody hard to wipe out the species, and not just because of Madagascar's tendency to Shut. Down. Everything.

Meanwhile, wash your hands. Properly.  For 30-60 seconds, rubbing between the webs of the fingers, making a cursory attempt to clean under your fingernails, and up to your wrists.  Keep your fingers out of your eyes, nose, and mouth.  Other orifices are your own business.  But wash your hands.  Did I mention washing your hands?  Yeah.  Wash your hands.  And don't panic.  Yet.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 04/28/09 at 12:12 am

Unless things change terribly for the worse, you're more likely to get killed driving to the clinic than you are to die of this here swine flu!
::)

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Jessica on 04/28/09 at 12:19 am


Every strain of the flu is prone to mutations.  H1N1 has made the jump from pig to human (again), just as H5N1 made the jump from bird to human.  Turns out that the genes for virulence tend to burn themselves out pretty quickly. 

You're right to be wary of this latest mutation.  You're also right to be stocking up on masks, gloves, and what-not.  These are inexpensive first-aid supplies that could be useful in any emergency.

You're overreacting at present.  There's plenty of evidence to suggest sustained human-to-human transmission, there's minimal evidence to indicate airborne transmission, and there's minimal evidence to indicate virulence comparable to the 1918 variant.  At present, it's resistant to two of the three major antivirals (amantadine and rimantadine), but sensitive to oseltamivir (Tamiflu).

If we start seeing it in environments where viruses with the H274Y sequence (correlation to Tamiflu resistance) exist in the pig, bird, or human populations, and the Mexican variant of H1N1 somehow manages to pick up that sequence by infecting a person already infected with a Tamiflu-reistant strain, and it manages to subsequently mutate into a version which can spread via air (coughing), as opposed to physical contact, and it manages to be sufficiently virulent ("virulence" being loosely defined as the ability to kick off the cytokine storm that preferentially kills young/healthy patients over infants/elderly/immunocompromised patients) -- if you get all three of those things: resistance to the last remaining antiviral, airborne transmission, and virulence -- then, and only then, are you looking at a 1918/end-of-the-world scenario.  And even then it's far from a sure thing.

WHO just went to Pandemic Level 4 tonight.  IMNSHO, they should be at 5, and I'm betting they go to 6 within the month.  I'm also betting (with real money) that it gets one (but not two, and not all three) of the criteria I outlined in that last paragraph.  Tens of millions infected, a few thousand dead, but we're talking about a virus that kills 20,000 people per year as a baseline.  Biggest economic impact is gonna be with pork producers, who might wind up bankrupt -- but if its spread can be limited, you're gonna wanna buy those stocks too.  (I'm kicking myself for not having bought NVAX on Friday, the news was out, the stock had broken to new highs, but the panic hadn't had an entire weekend of media hysteria to feed, and the friggin' stock tripled on Monday's open.  Easy money, and I left it all on the table.)

Anyone following this story should spend a few hours playing Pandemic 2.  Not only will you learn the basics of epidemiology, you'll have more fun than you ever thought possible.  Even with the benefit of an intelligent designer (namely you, the player, deciding which characteristics you'd like your germ-of-choice to acquire so as to most-efficiently wipe out all of humanity!), it's bloody hard to wipe out the species, and not just because of Madagascar's tendency to Shut. Down. Everything.

Meanwhile, wash your hands.  Properly.  For 30-60 seconds, rubbing between the webs of the fingers, making a cursory attempt to clean under your fingernails, and up to your wrists.  Keep your fingers out of your eyes, nose, and mouth.  Other orifices are your own business.  But wash your hands.  Did I mention washing your hands?  Yeah.  Wash your hands.  And don't panic.  Yet.


*wild applause*

I washed my hands before I applauded, BTW. ;D

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Foo Bar on 04/28/09 at 12:52 am


*wild applause*

I washed my hands before I applauded, BTW. ;D


/takes a bow

In the interest of giving credit where credit's due, FluTrackers and Biosurveillance are (among many) who are doing a great job of covering this event.

When it comes right down to it, the only thing you, as an individual, can do to protect yourself from the actual disease is to wash your hands frequently, and be painfully aware of every time you rub your eyes, nose, or mouth. 

Mushroom's absolutely right in that a 1918-style pandemic - with 50% infection rates and 3% death rates (edit: yep the Spanish Flu was only 3% mortality, but huge infection rate... now imagine something that well-popagated but with SARS-like 17%, or H5N1-like 60% mortality rates.  The reason SARS and H5N1 didn't end the world is because they were killed their victims before they could spread it) in formerly-healthy patients - may occur within the next 6 months.  Or 6 years.  Or 26 years.  This outbreak isn't that one yet; it's not even an epidemic.  But it's a great opportunity to test your preparedness.  Even if WHO goes to Stage 6 (pandemic) on the variant currently being transmitted, the price of screwing up is a really nasty week, which is a pretty good incentive not to screw up.  But (as long as this variant doesn't mutate the wrong way) it won't be a fatal screwup, which means you'll get to learn from the mistakes you made this time.

For now, watch the blogs and see how long it takes things to filter from the blogs through to the business news (which tends to be an hour or two behind the markets, and is therefore still a few hours ahead of the rest of the mainstream news), then to the evening TV news.  That time delay will mark how much time you've got between "Hey, boss, don't worry about the flu", "Hey, boss, nothing personal, but I'm giving up handshakes for a couple of weeks", and "Hey, boss, either you're putting me on the telecommuting trial group, or I'm taking all vacation starting next week, and I'll see you in July if you make it."  The current event is as much an exercise in information dissemination as much as it is an exercise in epidemiology.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Foo Bar on 04/30/09 at 12:08 am


WHO just went to  Pandemic Level 4 tonight.  IMNSHO, they should be at 5, and I'm betting they go to 6 within the month. 


Update:  WHO declared Level 5 on 4/29/2009. 

About time.  I'm refining my prediction to say that WHO declares Level 6 - efficient and sustained human-to-human transmission - by May 9th.

But even that won't be the end of the world, it just means that a whole lot of people are going to get sick for about a week, and that you should wash your hands more often. 

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Frank on 04/30/09 at 12:16 am


Unless things change terribly for the worse, you're more likely to get killed driving to the clinic than you are to die of this here swine flu!
::)

That's right Max! Good thing CONTROL has you to maintain the sanity in this world.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Philip Eno on 04/30/09 at 12:39 am


Maybe 2012 will be the time that everyone in America dies.
How close were the Mayans to Mexico?

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Don Carlos on 04/30/09 at 9:06 am


How close were the Mayans to Mexico?


They live on the Yucatan peninsula, why?

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Philip Eno on 04/30/09 at 9:08 am


They live on the Yucatan peninsula, why?
It is the Mayan Calendar that prdicts the world will in December 2012 (there is another thread on this subject somewhere)

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: philbo on 04/30/09 at 9:50 am

A bit of sanity on the subject: http://www.badscience.net/2009/04/parmageddon/

And slightly less sanity: http://www.amiright.com/parody/80s/yazoo2.shtml

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Jessica on 04/30/09 at 11:00 am


It is the Mayan Calendar that prdicts the world will in December 2012 (there is another thread on this subject somewhere)


It does NOT predict that the world ends.  It is just the end of their calendar. ::)

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 04/30/09 at 3:59 pm

I am somewhat surprised that nobody picked up the quote I started the first post with.

For anybody that has seen the miniseries based on "The Stand", that is how it opens.  I can't remember if the book did, it has been to long since I have read it.

I will have to get it while I am on leave and read it again.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 04/30/09 at 5:31 pm


I am somewhat surprised that nobody picked up the quote I started the first post with.

For anybody that has seen the miniseries based on "The Stand", that is how it opens.  I can't remember if the book did, it has been to long since I have read it.

I will have to get it while I am on leave and read it again.
little stand reference on wonkette yesterday.

http://wonkette.com/408184/california-marine-sick-quarantine-at-29-palms-base

if you get swine flu and end up homebound, you might wanna start reading the stand to kill time while you're bedridden. but you'll probably recover before you get to the end of it.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Mushroom on 05/03/09 at 8:01 pm


little stand reference on wonkette yesterday.

http://wonkette.com/408184/california-marine-sick-quarantine-at-29-palms-base

if you get swine flu and end up homebound, you might wanna start reading the stand to kill time while you're bedridden. but you'll probably recover before you get to the end of it.


Actually, SWine Flu seems to have a mortality rate less then half of the regular flu.  But it has an infection rate that is hard to believe.  On the news today, was now in 34 states, and 18 countries.  The danger is not in the disease, as much as the numbers of people infected.

Some research believes that 1/2 of the world's population was infected in 1918-1919.  Taking 3% of that, and you have a disaster.  Imagine that happening today, with 3 times the population.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: EthanM on 05/05/09 at 10:59 am


sorta like this one, with the exception of the cases in mexico, yes? so unless things change, the real question is why mexico is presenting this different case. is it because of urban sanitary conditions? something different they're doing with regard to treatment? some other pathogen that's interacting with the swine flu? or maybe the further it gets from the source the less virulent becomes -- i.e., the people contracting it in mexico are more likely to have gotten directly from one of these infected pigs on one of these smithfield farms or from a person who got it that way. so it's possible that the more human-to-human transmissions occur, and the further it gets generationally from the source, the less virulent the virus. that would account for what we're seeing, in fact. i wonder if anyone's come up with that theory.





I thought of that about a week ago, or at least something like it.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: EthanM on 05/05/09 at 11:04 am


Actually, SWine Flu seems to have a mortality rate less then half of the regular flu.  But it has an infection rate that is hard to believe.  On the news today, was now in 34 states, and 18 countries.  The danger is not in the disease, as much as the numbers of people infected.

Some research believes that 1/2 of the world's population was infected in 1918-1919.  Taking 3% of that, and you have a disaster.  Imagine that happening today, with 3 times the population.


Isn't the regular flu in all fifty states, or at least the continental 48, for several months every year?

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: philbo on 05/05/09 at 11:29 am


Isn't the regular flu in all fifty states, or at least the continental 48, for several months every year?

And it kills on average 35k people per year in the US, between a quarter and half a million worldwide.

I'll start getting worried once the swine flu actually becomes a risk that's worth taking note of - there are too many higher risks about at the moment to worry about that now.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Tia on 05/05/09 at 11:31 am


And it kills on average 35k people per year in the US, between a quarter and half a million worldwide.

I'll start getting worried once the swine flu actually becomes a risk that's worth taking note of - there are too many higher risks about at the moment to worry about that now.
at the risk of sounding like alex jones, frightened people are submissive and easily managed. i'm not really buying the swine flu thing; the government and media seem to go from one hysterical crisis to another and i get the impression there's a reason.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Jessica on 05/05/09 at 11:33 am


at the risk of sounding like alex jones, frightened people are submissive and easily managed. i'm not really buying the swine flu thing; the government and media seem to go from one hysterical crisis to another and i get the impression there's a reason.


It's because Obama is a Muslim terrorist and the news is run by his army of followers, so they're covering for him while he secretly meets with Al-Qaeda and figures out this world domination thing.
















:D

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: philbo on 05/05/09 at 11:45 am


It's because Obama is a Muslim terrorist and the news is run by his army of followers, so they're covering for him while he secretly meets with Al-Qaeda and figures out this world domination thing.
















:D

I do hope your department of Homeland Security has a teensy-weensy sense of humour.  If not, I hope you're using an anonymizing proxy ;)

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 05/05/09 at 1:37 pm


And it kills on average 35k people per year in the US, between a quarter and half a million worldwide.

I'll start getting worried once the swine flu actually becomes a risk that's worth taking note of - there are too many higher risks about at the moment to worry about that now.


We have a Crisis Crisis in the U.S.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/help.gif

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: AL-B Mk. III on 08/24/09 at 9:46 pm

I love this guy.  :D

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=swine_flu

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: JamieMcBain on 08/24/09 at 9:50 pm

The actual poem is creepy....

The Hollow Men by T.S Elliot

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw.  Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us--if at all--not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

                                  II

Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death's dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.

Let me be no nearer
In death's dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer--

Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom

                                  III

This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man's hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.

Is it like this
In death's other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.

                                  IV

The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

In this last of meeting places
We grope together
and avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

                                  V

Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the shadow
                                For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
                                                Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
and the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
                                For Thine is the Kingdom

For thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Foo Bar on 08/25/09 at 11:47 pm


The actual poem is creepy....

The Hollow Men by T.S Elliot


By the way...

If you're new to the poem and haven't watched Apocalypse Now recently, stop what you're doing, dig out the DVD, and watch the movie again.  The movie will make a lot more sense.

If you already know what I mean by that, just read the poem while listening to Shriekback's Nemesis. (Recommended mix: the 5:52 mix, 12" vinyl, that starts with an unrelated sample from the movie.  Depending on how you pace the reading and the instrumental breaks, it'll fit perfectly.  If I could do a good impression of Brando, I'd do the whole poem and throw it into the Intarwebs as a mash-up.)

Subject: Re: This is the way the world ends...

Written By: Philip Eno on 11/07/09 at 1:11 pm


It is the Mayan Calendar that prdicts the world will in December 2012 (there is another thread on this subject somewhere)
The movie 2012 opens in the UK next Friday.

Check for new replies or respond here...