We watched Michael Moore's movie Capitalism: A Love Story last night. Like a majority of Michael Moore's movies, it made me angry-but yet it gave me hope. The 1%'s way to keep the masses in check is to instill fear into them and keep them divided. It has happened since the beginning of time. "These people (immigrants) are going to take away your jobs" "Those people ('liberals') want to take away what you worked for." etc. etc. If they keep the 99% fighting among themselves, they won't see that the 1% is actually taking away their livelihoods by shipping jobs overseas for cheap labor, and deny them the chance for collective bargaining with the powers that be-meaning ALL labor would be slaves-working for less pay/benefits while the fat cats get fatter.  At the end, Moore talked about those workers who staged a sit-in so their factory will reopen so they will all have their jobs back. His message was if the 99% of us stood up against the 1% who are trying to turn the rest of us into their slaves so they can have another villa or another private jet, the 1% wouldn't have a chance.

After waking up this morning and sleeping on Michael Moore's message, I found this story on Yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110218/ap_on_bi_ge/us_broken_budgets_union_fights

It seems like the Revolution has begun. In a sense, what is going on in Wisconsin, Ohio, & other states, is not that much different than what is going on in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, & other places. I think people are just so sick of working hard and not getting any farther so their bosses can take more & more.

Any thoughts? Comments?


Cat 

Another part of Moore's message, the most important part, was that capitalism is an immoral system, not amoral but immoral, evil.  It is also suicidal - its only answer to all problems is to go faster.  As one exec in an old movie called "Controlling Interest" said, "you grow or you die".  The corporate crimes are legion, to many to count, and every time regs are imposed, they come up with new "instruments" to avoid them, Like those "derivatives" which even Harvard Business profs can't explain.  So regs go just so far.  And how to you regulate evil?

I know the righties on this board are going to start yelling "SOCIALISM, Lions, Tigers, Bears, be afraid".  Well I'm ok Socialism, with ala Bernie Sanders, but Moore's answer was Democracy, like in the work place.  Let the revolution begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why Wisconsin needs to make "collective bargaining illegal".  Nobody is holding a gun to the State's head when they agree to sign too-expensive union contracts.  For my money I see no problem allowing teachers, etc... the privelege of collective bargaining and to strike.

Of course I also do not have a problem with the state (or any employer for that matter) to be able to bring in replacement workers if the unionized ones go on strike or call in with the "Blue Flu".

I do question the legality of somehow "cancelling" features of already-negotiated union contract features prior to the contracts' terms expiring.  I would think that this aspect would be fairly well-established case law, even moreso than labor law.

The State of Wisconsin can only blame its outrageous union contracts on its own past stupidity.

I don't know why Wisconsin needs to make "collective bargaining illegal".  Nobody is holding a gun to the State's head when they agree to sign too-expensive union contracts.  For my money I see no problem allowing teachers, etc... the privelege of collective bargaining and to strike.

Of course I also do not have a problem with the state (or any employer for that matter) to be able to bring in replacement workers if the unionized ones go on strike or call in with the "Blue Flu".

I do question the legality of somehow "cancelling" features of already-negotiated union contract features prior to the contracts' terms expiring.  I would think that this aspect would be fairly well-established case law, even moreso than labor law.

The State of Wisconsin can only blame its outrageous union contracts on its own past stupidity.


"Outrageous" is in the eye of the beholder, and we'll see how far this goes

What's happening in Winsconsin compared to Egypt is FAR different. Unlike Egypt, we aren't living in a dictatorship. Still...I hope this Progressive worker in Winsconsin starts some kind of Progressive movement throughout the country.

What's happening in Winsconsin compared to Egypt is FAR different. Unlike Egypt, we aren't living in a dictatorship. Still...I hope this Progressive worker in Winsconsin starts some kind of Progressive movement throughout the country.



Actually, many people WORK in a dictatorship. The boss says how long you have to work & how much you can get paid. If it wasn't for the unions, we wouldn't have something called minimum wage in this country. What we really need is a LIVABLE wage. The Fed minimum wage is $7.25. A person making that and working 40 hours a week is basically living below poverty level.

I see a lot of comparisons between Wisconsin & Egypt. People are FED UP with the sh!t they are being told by the powers that be and they are fighting for their rights as human beings. So hold on to your hats, because the struggle is just beginning.



Cat 

What's happening in Winsconsin compared to Egypt is FAR different. Unlike Egypt, we aren't living in a dictatorship. Still...I hope this Progressive worker in Winsconsin starts some kind of Progressive movement throughout the country.


Yes, we can expect that the military will not come out into the streets to shot us down, but the local cops just might, its happened before.  

We also hope that a progressive movement is starting.

The fight, I hope, will go beyond the usual.  I hope it centers on a cooperative movement and work place democracy.  From there, we will get REAL political democracy

Yes, we can expect that the military will not come out into the streets to shot us down, but the local cops just might, its happened before. 

We also hope that a progressive movement is starting.

The fight, I hope, will go beyond the usual.  I hope it centers on a cooperative movement and work place democracy.  From there, we will get REAL


Want workplace democracy?  Start a collective.

Want workplace democracy?  Start a collective.


NO, turn corporate America into a collective!  We're talking revolution here

That's the first thing I noticed when I started working as a wage slave.  Most of our livelihoods are governed by unaccountable tyrannies.  No union.  You don't get a vote. 

Michael Moore is absolutely right.

That's the first thing I noticed when I started working as a wage slave.  Most of our livelihoods are governed by unaccountable tyrannies.  No union.  You don't get a vote. 

Michael Moore is absolutely right.


I wonder if Moore's workplace is a democracy...

I wonder if Moore's workplace is a democracy...


Moore?  I'll bet there's a legion of unpaid interns happily slaving away for him and hundreds more clamoring to get a spot.  I'm not cynical or nothing...
8)

Moore?  I'll bet there's a legion of unpaid interns happily slaving away for him and hundreds more clamoring to get a spot.  I'm not cynical or nothing...
8)


Well one thing is for sure.  When a guy gets a few bucks in his pocket and is an executive of a company he owns, any thoughts of democracy go out the door.  "It's my way or the highway".

Don't matter if the boss is Dem, Repub, or Commie.  Da boss is da boss.

Well one thing is for sure.  When a guy gets a few bucks in his pocket and is an executive of a company he owns, any thoughts of democracy go out the door.  "It's my way or the highway".

Don't matter if the boss is Dem, Repub, or Commie.  Da boss is da boss.


In my experience, he doesn't even have to have a bucks in his pocket.  That's the case with a buddy of mine who runs web development company (small potatoes).  He's getting a rep for not paying folks on time.  When he's not making any money it's a groovy hippie collective...when he's flush he's da big boss man!
::)

That's the first thing I noticed when I started working as a wage slave.  Most of our livelihoods are governed by unaccountable tyrannies.  No union.  You don't get a vote. 

Michael Moore is absolutely right.


Even with a union you don't get no vote on how the company is run, unless you work at a cooperative.

I wonder if Moore's workplace is a democracy...


Why don't you ask him?

Well one thing is for sure.  When a guy gets a few bucks in his pocket and is an executive of a company he owns, any thoughts of democracy go out the door.  "It's my way or the highway".

Don't matter if the boss is Dem, Repub, or Commie.  Da boss is da boss.


There are exceptions.  I have no idea if they have a web cite, but Carris Reels in VT was a family business which sold itself to its workers and became a cooperative.  Not all entrepreneurs are greedy bas*ards

Not all entrepreneurs are greedy bas*ards


Well I can agree with that.  They do appear to be quite in the minority though.  ;D

Well I can agree with that.  They do appear to be quite in the minority though.  ;D


Which is at the root of the problem.

One of the points that keeps coming up here in Wi is that if Walker gets his way with these employees, then all of our other public employees~ police, firefighters, emt's, etc will suffer the same fate. It's a very touchy situation here. Yes, everything so far has been peaceful,  but I can see things turning ugly real fast if a solution is not met and soon.

One of the points that keeps coming up here in Wi is that if Walker gets his way with these employees, then all of our other public employees~ police, firefighters, emt's, etc will suffer the same fate. It's a very touchy situation here. Yes, everything so far has been peaceful,  but I can see things turning ugly real fast if a solution is not met and soon.


Makes one wonder why government employees were specifically excluded from The Wagner Act.  I see no problem with any employees organizing, regardless of whether they are state employees or not.  I would consider the right to withhold one's services in lieu of what one considers to be a decent wage as a fundamental right (I'm excluding workers whose contracts have not expired, and others with fixed-term contracts like military personnel from this argument).

Of course i also consider the right of an employer to be able to employ willing workers at whatever wage they want, so long as a union is on strike or its contract has otherwise expired.  Nobody can tell me where to buy my groceries to get the best deal, so why should an employer (unencumbered by a contract an with a union on strike) be prohibited from doing the same?

Ultimately though, the various unions in Wisconsin can still flex their muscles by staging a strike anyway... which is the tool they would be using without this legislation.

If replacement workers snap up the vacant jobs, then that would signal that the benefits packages (I am assuming that is the issue in Wiscy) are a tad rich.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3NTUNQzr3k



Cat

Makes one wonder why government employees were specifically excluded from The Wagner Act.  I see no problem with any employees organizing, regardless of whether they are state employees or not.  I would consider the right to withhold one's services in lieu of what one considers to be a decent wage as a fundamental right (I'm excluding workers whose contracts have not expired, and others with fixed-term contracts like military personnel from this argument).

Of course i also consider the right of an employer to be able to employ willing workers at whatever wage they want, so long as a union is on strike or its contract has otherwise expired.  Nobody can tell me where to buy my groceries to get the best deal, so why should an employer (unencumbered by a contract an with a union on strike) be prohibited from doing the same?

Ultimately though, the various unions in Wisconsin can still flex their muscles by staging a strike anyway... which is the tool they would be using without this legislation.

If replacement workers snap up the vacant jobs, then that would signal that the benefits packages (I am assuming that is the issue in Wiscy) are a tad rich.


No, it isn't the issue.  State workers have offered to help the sate out of its budget problems with give backs.  The issue is the right to bargain collectively.  The goal is to break the union.

You're right. One of the major issues is the collective bargaining rights of these state employees.

The head of the teachers union has issued a statement to teachers telling them to report to work tomorrow unless they were to be off already because of the president's day holiday.

I don't know all the details about the whole thing, and I've been invited to rallies all weekend by friends of mine on both sides of the issue. It's going to be interesting to see how everything pans out.

I heard that doctors are willing to write excuses for teachers who stage a "sick-in."

"I can't go to work because the governor made me sick."


Cat

That is correct. One of the local news affiliates had a story about that tonight. Medical excuses being handed out left and right. Some of them couldn't be verified. The only way some of those people could miss work is to have a doctors excuse so they're finding a way to do it.

Personally that is one of the things that enrages me about this situation. If I called in "sick" to work and it was well known that I was out protesting (granted I don't work for a union company) instead of doing my job my @$$ would be suspended/terminated/disciplined. And right now the biggest victims here are going to be the students who's classes have been cancelled for how many days. They're going to use up all their emergency days, the school year will wind up being extended, and then the teachers aren't going to want to work those extra days because they've made their plans for the summer already. FRUSTRATING!!!!    8-P

I see things from both sides. Giving up collective bargaining rights altogether is crappy, but there are many many many other unions here in Wisconsin (Harley Davidson most notably) who have had to give alot to keep jobs. Many of our state employees haven't had to pay much of anything to be where they are right now. I realize I'm starting to sound very biased all of a sudden, so I'll wrap this up. In my opinion, yes unions are there to protect their employees. Unions do not necessarily mean that those employees have to get their way all the time. Just my thought. Sorry if this offends anyone.

No, it isn't the issue.  State workers have offered to help the sate out of its budget problems with give backs.  The issue is the right to bargain collectively.  The goal is to break the union.


Could be.  But they could break the union by bringing in replacement workers anyway when the contract(s) expire if the unions did nt agree to the various terms.  That's what is gonna happen anyway if this legislation passes, because I imagine that the union members will go on strike.

My opinion... the unions made a strategic error in offering the concessions if the legislation were withdrawn, as it more or less amounted to an admission that the benefits situation was a real problem which they had ignored in the first place.  My thought? This offer was nothing more than cynical Union executives trying to make sure that they have their staff jobs after whatever legislation passes takes place.  If the union is "broken", of course, then those Union execs have to go work real jobs once again.

Kind of reminds me of the way the United Steelworkers crow about how their contract at the old LTV plants (which were bought by International Steel Group) "saved" the plants.  Those who know the truth realize that LTV had requested concessions far less onerous than ISG did, and when the USWA refused, then LTV filed Chapter 11 and shut the plants down for months, nobody had a job.  ISG then required unbelievably strict concessions and the union caved.

I don't know why Wisconsin needs to make "collective bargaining illegal".  Nobody is holding a gun to the State's head when they agree to sign too-expensive union contracts.  For my money I see no problem allowing teachers, etc... the privelege of collective bargaining and to strike.

Of course I also do not have a problem with the state (or any employer for that matter) to be able to bring in replacement workers if the unionized ones go on strike or call in with the "Blue Flu".

I do question the legality of somehow "cancelling" features of already-negotiated union contract features prior to the contracts' terms expiring.  I would think that this aspect would be fairly well-established case law, even moreso than labor law.

The State of Wisconsin can only blame its outrageous union contracts on its own past stupidity.
I agree with your post.

That is correct. One of the local news affiliates had a story about that tonight. Medical excuses being handed out left and right. Some of them couldn't be verified. The only way some of those people could miss work is to have a doctors excuse so they're finding a way to do it.

Personally that is one of the things that enrages me about this situation. If I called in "sick" to work and it was well known that I was out protesting (granted I don't work for a union company) instead of doing my job my @$$ would be suspended/terminated/disciplined. And right now the biggest victims here are going to be the students who's classes have been cancelled for how many days. They're going to use up all their emergency days, the school year will wind up being extended, and then the teachers aren't going to want to work those extra days because they've made their plans for the summer already. FRUSTRATING!!!!    8-P

I see things from both sides. Giving up collective bargaining rights altogether is crappy, but there are many many many other unions here in Wisconsin (Harley Davidson most notably) who have had to give alot to keep jobs. Many of our state employees haven't had to pay much of anything to be where they are right now. I realize I'm starting to sound very biased all of a sudden, so I'll wrap this up. In my opinion, yes unions are there to protect their employees. Unions do not necessarily mean that those employees have to get their way all the time. Just my thought. Sorry if this offends anyone.


That's true, NO is a good faith bargaining position, but here, its the right to bargain that is the question, and they have offered to "give up a lot"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3NTUNQzr3k



Cat


Karma 2 U!

"The necessitous man is not a free man."

Roosevelt was recommending in his "second bill of rights" what the American Right now disparages as a "European-style democracy."  You have the right to a decent home, a good job, health care, and so forth. 

In the 1960s when America was at her most prosperous the Right saw that a free man,* a man who did not have to worry every waking hour about feeding his* family and keeping his home, became a leisurely man, then an educated man, and then an activist man.

Give the dirty peasant one potato and he'll only demand two the next day.  That's the reigning political philosophy we've got and FDR must be spinning is grave!

*or woman; or her, etc.

Karma 2 U!

"The necessitous man is not a free man."

Roosevelt was recommending in his "second bill of rights" what the American Right now disparages as a "European-style democracy."  You have the right to a decent home, a good job, health care, and so forth. 

In the 1960s when America was at her most prosperous the Right saw that a free man,* a man who did not have to worry every waking hour about feeding his* family and keeping his home, became a leisurely man, then an educated man, and then an activist man.

Give the dirty peasant one potato and he'll only demand two the next day.  That's the reigning political philosophy we've got and FDR must be spinning is grave!

*or woman; or her, etc.


And so there are battles to be fought, people to be educated, and oligarchs and their lackeys to be eliminated.  Here's to a cooperativist  America.  The Knights of Labor had it right all along.  Workplace democracy is the foundational for political democracy, without the first, the second is nothing more that a scam