When a person commits acts of evil, is it better to wish pain and suffering on them for being bad people, or is it better to hope they change their ways and feel compassion for them being lost?

What do YOU think, YD?
:D

To err is human,
to bitch and whine is divine!

What do YOU think, YD?
:D

To err is human,
to bitch and whine is divine!


I definitely think forgiveness is better. I think most people who do horrible things suffer from some kind of mental illness (I consider personality disorders mental illness as well), so wishing ill on them (beyond what needs to happen to stop them from doing more harm) is pretty wicked in itself.

i have a feeling most people will disagree with me though.

Indignation doesn't need to be righteous.  
Righteousness does not imply indignation.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3145/2588253456_4e176626fc_m.jpg

Fortunately, there are alternatives to forgiveness (and amnesia) that require neither righteousness nor indignation.

Indignation doesn't need to be righteous.  
Righteousness does not imply indignation.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3145/2588253456_4e176626fc_m.jpg

Fortunately, there are alternatives to forgiveness (and amnesia) that require neither righteousness nor indignation.


Explain what you mean, I am interested.

I don't think forgiveness is amnesia either. I think forgiveness is simply ceasing to wish pain in return for a wrong, it doesn't mean the trust, etc is restored.

When I suffered from depression before I was medicated I did terrible things and was judged HARSHLY for it. About 70% of the people who hated me had the right to, but the remaining 30% was just looking for an excuse to judge.
That 30% who have no right to judge me were filled with snobs and preps. The kind of people who would discard you like trash once your reputation meant nothing to them anymore.


If those people knew my situation I bet they wouldn't have felt so proud of themselves for looking down on me so.

Anyway, I agree with everything you said, BUT I don't think everyone who does something bad is mentally ill. Sometimes it's just very selfish people who don't give a hoot about anyone else in the world.

I definitely think forgiveness is better. I think most people who do horrible things suffer from some kind of mental illness (I consider personality disorders mental illness as well), so wishing ill on them (beyond what needs to happen to stop them from doing more harm) is pretty wicked in itself.

i have a feeling most people will disagree with me though.


Do you forgive Osama Bin Laden?

Do you forgive Osama Bin Laden?


This is the whole ...'separate the sin from the sinner' thing. I have always struggled with this concept... :-\\

Do you forgive Osama Bin Laden?


Well I don't even think he was behind 9/11, but if he was, what do I have to forgive? He didn't kill me or anyone I know.

Well I don't even think he was behind 9/11

Newspapers.  They are there for the reading.  You should read one sometime.

Newspapers.  They are there for the reading.  You should read one sometime.


Who owns the news?

Oh...I neglected to answer the question. Forgiveness is the most important action....

When a person commits acts of evil, is it better to wish pain and suffering on them for being bad people, or is it better to hope they change their ways and feel compassion for them being lost?


Depends what they did.  Evil acts that are cold and calculating, done by people who are simply evil and not "lost" in my opinion are deserving of nothing.

Of course that is different from somebody who was down on their luck etc... and did the wrong thing.

One problem in our world is that there indeed are simply evil people, and they continue to do their damage because some people keep cutting them slack because they are "lost".

I believe in justice. Each situation should be judged on it's own. It shouldn't be a "one punishment fits all" type thing. If someone does something because they are mentally ill, to me the justice there will be to get them the help they need. And I don't believe that the death penalty is justice. I think having someone rot in prison is more justice then putting them to death.



What do YOU think, YD?
:D

To err is human,
to bitch and whine is divine!



To err is human
But to really foul things up takes a computer.  :D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Cat

I believe in justice. Each situation should be judged on it's own. It shouldn't be a "one punishment fits all" type thing. If someone does something because they are mentally ill, to me the justice there will be to get them the help they need. And I don't believe that the death penalty is justice. I think having someone rot in prison is more justice then putting them to death.


 


To err is human
But to really foul things up takes a computer.  :D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Cat



Do you think some people just choose evil because it makes them happy? but have no psychological problems whatsoever? And do such people thus, deserve to be bullied, abused hated and tortured? Or would it be better if they learned in this life how to improve their character?

does a personality disorder count as Free Will or as mental illness? i know, for example, people will be more willing to forgive a schizophrenic murderer, than a sociopathic one, but is sociopathy really any less of a mental disability? Can you choose to be a sociopath? Is it even possible for a sociopath to be a nice person?

Do you think some people just choose evil because it makes them happy? but have no psychological problems whatsoever? And do such people thus, deserve to be bullied, abused hated and tortured? Or would it be better if they learned in this life how to improve their character?



Look at members of Congress. They choose to cut off unemployment benefits and they don't care if people will starve without it. They vote to end Medicare that seniors depend on. I would say they they choose to do evil things in the name of greed. Personally, I think all of those who voted that way should be striped of their salaries & Government healthcare just so they can see what it is like. Now, that would be justice served! 



does a personality disorder count as Free Will or as mental illness? i know, for example, people will be more willing to forgive a schizophrenic murderer, than a sociopathic one, but is sociopathy really any less of a mental disability? Can you choose to be a sociopath? Is it even possible for a sociopath to be a nice person?



That is a question that I'm not too sure how to answer. I had a conversation one time-where I was trying to defend a person who once had a breakdown but was never quite right since. The person who I had the conversation with didn't think that mental illness was a good excuse for behavior.

Also, you can say the same thing about alcoholics. They can't help the fact that they are addicted to alcohol but can they stop themselves from drinking? 



Cat

Look at members of Congress. They choose to cut off unemployment benefits and they don't care if people will starve without it. They vote to end Medicare that seniors depend on. I would say they they choose to do evil things in the name of greed. Personally, I think all of those who voted that way should be striped of their salaries & Government healthcare just so they can see what it is like. Now, that would be justice served! 



That is a question that I'm not too sure how to answer. I had a conversation one time-where I was trying to defend a person who once had a breakdown but was never quite right since. The person who I had the conversation with didn't think that mental illness was a good excuse for behavior.

Also, you can say the same thing about alcoholics. They can't help the fact that they are addicted to alcohol but can they stop themselves from drinking? 



Cat



It's hard to say. You can ask the same question with suicide. Did they choose to take their lives, or did their mental illness steal their life and use them as a tool?

Besides my ego ;D  I believe that forgiveness in the end is better than revenge. Sure, I'll complain, pout, and yell. But that's just some people's way of getting things out! After that I'll gladly forgive someone if they deserve it of course.

Personality disorders? I feel ambivalent about that because I'm unsure.

Personality disorders? I feel ambivalent about that because I'm unsure.


Call me an idealist, but I really believe that everyone is good deep down and that people who do crazy things like murder, rape, rob, etc are just imbalanced or missing a part of their brain or something.

Call me an idealist, but I really believe that everyone is good deep down and that people who do crazy things like murder, rape, rob, etc are just imbalanced or missing a part of their brain or something.


Or they have a low IQ! I hate to admit it, but that's a good excuse!

Depends what they did.  Evil acts that are cold and calculating, done by people who are simply evil and not "lost" in my opinion are deserving of nothing.

Of course that is different from somebody who was down on their luck etc... and did the wrong thing.

One problem in our world is that there indeed are simply evil people, and they continue to do their damage because some people keep cutting them slack because they are "lost".


Do unto others as you would have the do unto you, but....

Do unto ME and you get in in the neck with a crossbow!  (Fell asleep watching "Deliverance" the other night).  Yeah, his mama will miss him on xmas, but that's one evil sum bit who won't do unto nobody again!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_thumleft.gif

Call me an idealist, but I really believe that everyone is good deep down and that people who do crazy things like murder, rape, rob, etc are just imbalanced or missing a part of their brain or something.


While it's good that you have a positive outlook on humanity, I must respectfully disagree with you. Although I believe that most people are basically good, I do not believe that all people are. Because what is life but a series of choices? And we are constantly faced with choices between right vs. wrong and good vs. evil.

I've met people who seemed basically good but also had criminal records (and some of whom had even done time) due to bad decisions they made, and while they seemed like nice enough people they were still responsible for their actions.

I have also met a select few people (thankfully, these kinds of people seem to be quite rare...I may have met perhaps 4 or 5 people like this in my lifetime) who could not be considered to be anything other than pure evil. Devious, dishonest, manipulative, selfish, cruel, having no concern for the well-being of others nor the consequences of their own actions, I can go on and on. The bottom line is, these were truly bad people, and thankfully no real harm came to me from them. Sure you might consider them sociopathic but that does not excuse them from their actions.

I mean, no offense, but you make it sound as if, for example, Adolf Hitler or Charles Manson were actually really good people deep down and they just happened to have something wrong with their brains so what they did really wasn't their fault.

Which to me seems dangerously naive.

I mean, no offense, but you make it sound as if, for example, Adolf Hitler or Charles Manson were actually really good people deep down and they just happened to have something wrong with their brains so what they did really wasn't their fault.

Which to me seems dangerously naive.


Well I think their brains are SO messed up, and they are so dangerous, there's really nothing we can do aside from put them in jail or some other kind of permanent institution. I don't think there's any hope/chance they will change (of course Hitler is dead, but Manson and others like them), but I don't think they are evil because of free agency. I think they were essentially born that way, or were made that way in their childhood by their experiences interacting with their biology. I know people want to believe we have complete control over our actions, but the truth is, we only have control within the context of our personalities.

Think of Phineas Gage or Phillip Garrido. Gage was a 19th-century American who was a really nice guy before he was impaled with a metal rod (and survived!) and it changed his brain chemistry and turned him into a jerk.
In an even more extreme case, Phillip Garrido, a currently living northern California man, used to be a really nice guy, until he took LSD and ended up raping, impregnating and kidnapping Jaycee Dugard for 18 years!

Even my great uncle, Bill, apparently was a cruel man who abused my great aunt, before he had a stroke, and I have only known him as a sweet funny guy.

That's more what I mean. do you understand?

Personally, I think the 'most evil' should be kept in special hospitals where they study how people can become that wrong. When we just execute people like that, we lose a lot of valuable information about psychology.

Well I think their brains are SO messed up, and they are so dangerous, there's really nothing we can do aside from put them in jail or some other kind of permanent institution. I don't think there's any hope/chance they will change (of course Hitler is dead, but Manson and others like them), but I don't think they are evil because of free agency. I think they were essentially born that way, or were made that way in their childhood by their experiences interacting with their biology. I know people want to believe we have complete control over our actions, but the truth is, we only have control within the context of our personalities.

I do think that most people know the difference between what is right and what is wrong and what is good and what is evil, but unfortunately many people make the wrong decision because they're weak, or selfish, or lazy, or greedy, or hateful, or they plain just don't give a damn about other people.

Think of Phineas Gage or Phillip Garrido. Gage was a 19th-century American who was a really nice guy before he was impaled with a metal rod (and survived!) and it changed his brain chemistry and turned him into a jerk.

In an even more extreme case, Phillip Garrido, a currently living northern California man, used to be a really nice guy, until he took LSD and ended up raping, impregnating and kidnapping Jaycee Dugard for 18 years!

Even my great uncle, Bill, apparently was a cruel man who abused my great aunt, before he had a stroke, and I have only known him as a sweet funny guy.

All of these being extreme examples. Maybe these people were "nice guys" on the outside who already had some really bad stuff going on inside which no one really knew about. And as far as LSD goes, I've tried it a couple of times and as unpleasant as I found the experience to be, it never gave me any desire to rape or kidnap anyone. Not to mention that I have countless friends who have taken acid and none of them ever raped or kidnapped anyone either.

(Sorry about your great uncle BTW.)

That's more what I mean. do you understand?

Personally, I think the 'most evil' should be kept in special hospitals where they study how people can become that wrong. When we just execute people like that, we lose a lot of valuable information about psychology.

Which they generally are, and they have proven to be invaluable when it comes to criminal profiling and things like that. However, all the advances in psychology will never stop all people from succumbing to temptation and doing things like lying, stealing, cheating on their spouses, or driving 5 mph below the speed limit in the far left lane.  :P

All of these being extreme examples. Maybe these people were "nice guys" on the outside who already had some really bad stuff going on inside which no one really knew about. And as far as LSD goes, I've tried it a couple of times and as unpleasant as I found the experience to be, it never gave me any desire to rape or kidnap anyone. Not to mention that I have countless friends who have taken acid and none of them ever raped or kidnapped anyone either.

(Sorry about your great uncle BTW.)



Thanks for your condolences.  :) Yeah I did wonder if that maybe they were disturbed before and the LSD just pushed them over the edge. I'm sure LSD has many different outcomes, but I wouldn't consider it impossible for it to turn a totally nice guy into a monster in rare cases.

I also think a part of the reason free will is a comforting idea is because it makes us not feel bad about having vengeful thoughts. It's hard for most people not to want revenge on people like Manson, etc, especially if they were personally hurt by them. And by denying free will exists, there's no way to justify anything more than stopping them from committing more acts of violence.

Look at members of Congress. They choose to cut off unemployment benefits and they don't care if people will starve without it. They vote to end Medicare that seniors depend on. I would say they they choose to do evil things in the name of greed. Personally, I think all of those who voted that way should be striped of their salaries & Government healthcare just so they can see what it is like. Now, that would be justice served! 

Cat


How is it considered "evil" when senators decide that they will not confiscate money from one group to give to another?

The sad truth in American society is that there is a large segment of people who seem to think that there is some sort of "right" for people to stick their hands into the pockets of other people.

If the American people want to provide for the poor, etc then they can do so... voluntarily... and out of charitible intentions... instead of being forced by the government to pony up their hard-earned dollars.  Government entitlement programs are not noble or charitable.  They are confiscatory.

How is it considered "evil" when senators decide that they will not confiscate money from one group to give to another?



Ayn Rand would agree with you.  Jesus would not.  Pay your damn taxes and quit bellyaching.  You ain't sleeping on a grate tonight, pal!
8)

How is it considered "evil" when senators decide that they will not confiscate money from one group to give to another?

The sad truth in American society is that there is a large segment of people who seem to think that there is some sort of "right" for people to stick their hands into the pockets of other people.

If the American people want to provide for the poor, etc then they can do so... voluntarily... and out of charitible intentions... instead of being forced by the government to pony up their hard-earned dollars.  Government entitlement programs are not noble or charitable.  They are confiscatory.


They have been confiscating money from one group and giving it to another for decades-and by signing on to the Ryan Bill they are doing more of the same. They take your money & mine and give it to gas & oil companies who make boocoo profits every year even without the subsidies that the government gives them. Then they take away programs that help millions of people so they can give more $$$$$$$ to the extremely wealthy which they would be fine without. By doing that, they do not improve this country at all-only give the Haves more on the backs of the Have-nots. And if that isn't evil, I don't know what is.


As for a "right" to assistance, we DO have that right granted to us under that Constitution. It is stated right there in the first few lines of the document known as the Preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


If helping people out in the way of unemployment benefits (that they paid into when they were working) after the Haves have taken their jobs overseas for cheap labor or take away the elderly medical care (that they also paid into) is NOT "Promoting the general Welfare", I don't know what is.



Cat

I don't think anyone is 100% good. I think most of us have done something that was considered wrong or that we've regret.

I think people are 80% good, with 20% leaning towards bad decisions!  ;D

I think that in the human population about 75% are good with the other 25% just selfish or extremely plain evil.

I don't think anyone is 100% good. I think most of us have done something that was considered wrong or that we've regret.

I think people are 80% good, with 20% leaning towards bad decisions!  ;D

I think that in the human population about 75% are good with the other 25% just selfish or extremely plain evil.


I suppose it depends on how you define good. Most people are good in the sense that they love their families, don't commit felonies, and are pleasant to people as long as they don't get on their bad side, but truly, compassionate people with love for everyone imo maybe makes up about 25% of the population. then 50% are the decent, loves-their-family-and-works-hard type, and then 25% are jerks.

How is it considered "evil" when senators decide that they will not confiscate money from one group to give to another?

The sad truth in American society is that there is a large segment of people who seem to think that there is some sort of "right" for people to stick their hands into the pockets of other people.

If the American people want to provide for the poor, etc then they can do so... voluntarily... and out of charitible intentions... instead of being forced by the government to pony up their hard-earned dollars.  Government entitlement programs are not noble or charitable.  They are confiscatory.





They have been confiscating money from one group and giving it to another for decades-and by signing on to the Ryan Bill they are doing more of the same. They take your money & mine and give it to gas & oil companies who make boocoo profits every year even without the subsidies that the government gives them. Then they take away programs that help millions of people so they can give more $$$$$$$ to the extremely wealthy which they would be fine without. By doing that, they do not improve this country at all-only give the Haves more on the backs of the Have-nots. And if that isn't evil, I don't know what is.


As for a "right" to assistance, we DO have that right granted to us under that Constitution. It is stated right there in the first few lines of the document known as the Preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


If helping people out in the way of unemployment benefits (that they paid into when they were working) after the Haves have taken their jobs overseas for cheap labor or take away the elderly medical care (that they also paid into) is NOT "Promoting the general Welfare", I don't know what is.



Cat




I was hoping that you would respond to this, LyricBoy. I guess you can't make a counter argument, huh?



Cat