Do you think that 1989 was more culturally part of the 90's than the 80's? I feel that it was in some ways, although early '89 was pretty much a continuation of 1988. But in late '89, was when the Simpsons premiered (the Christmas episode), as well as Saved by the Bell and the Aresnio Hall Show. It was also when Cross-Colors shirts, Hammer pants, and the high-fades (also known as 'Gumby' haircuts) became in style. Also the music of '89 had more soul and hip-hop like Bobby Brown, Young M.C., Tone Loc, etc. The other thing I remember about '89 was when Batman came out that summer.

Not really.

Actually, I'd compare it to what 1999 is to the zeroes.  In 1999, Family Guy, Eminem, Britney Spears, South Park, hell even Spongebob either first came out or were at their peak.

But, in 1999 we still had Clinton, the Internet was brand-new and the dot-com bubble hadn't burst yet, it was pre-9/11, there was still a lot of grunge-pop, there was tons of teen pop and not a huge amount of rap, and SNL and The Simpsons were still kinda funny.  Not to mention MTV was still pretty good, even if Beavis and Butt-head was gone, and there was still Third Rock From The Sun and even Daria I believe.

2000 and even early 2001 were more like 1997 than 2006, although they're still not hugely different from today.  I think the '90s zeitgeist spanned from September of 1991 to August of 2001.

In 1989, sure there was some early '90s type stuff, and The Simpsons, Seinfeld, gangsta rap and even alternative rock started around 1989 but the atmosphere, zeitgeist and politics were very 1980s.  Not to mention people still had big hair and big-framed glasses, and the music still had tinny synths and echoing snares even if some of it had hip hop influence.  1990 and the first two thirds of 1991 are also like this, to a somewhat lesser extent.

Sort of. It was the beginning of the period that didn't quite have the full '80s zeitgeist anymore but didn't have a '90s zeitgeist either, like fall 1989 to summer 1991. As you said, the "Gumby Haircut", which SCREAMS c. 1990 to me, came out in 1989, The Simpsons debuted in 1989, and there started to be alot more rap influence. When you listen to Like a Prayer, released in 1989, there was immense techno, soul, and hip-hop influence. Also, Nirvana and Nine Inch Nails actually debuted that year, both of which are extremely "1992-1994" to me, and Paul's Boutique came out that year, a landmark record in alot of ways that influenced the '90s immensely. The Little Mermaid came out that year, too, which started the whole classic run of early-mid '90s Disney movies.

I agree with what Donnie Darko said about 1989 to the '90s being like 1999 to the '00s. It was sort of the very end of the '80s with the politics and "yuppie" zeitgeist winding down and getting more and more ridiculous, the crack epidemic, etc. People getting disillusioned with the decade and its excesses, a process which had begun in 1987, and looking for new things to do, and the beginning of new trends.

Wasn't Married with Children still on then? That's classic 80's, even if it went over to the 90's.

No.  1989 was 80s.  It just wasn't part of the core 80s years, and what many people think of "80s" was gone or dying out by '89.  But I still count '89 as 80s, albeit barely. 

1990 is the early, early stages of the 90s.

No.  1989 was 80s.  It just wasn't part of the core 80s years, and what many people think of "80s" was gone or dying out by '89.  But I still count '89 as 80s, albeit barely. 

1990 is the early, early stages of the 90s.



Defidently. 1989 still had an 80's feel to(in fact so did 1990). Even though hair metal was dying down a bit late 80's pop was at it's peak in '89. Even though the 80's feel had started to fade a bit 1989 was still very 80's.

Not really.

Actually, I'd compare it to what 1999 is to the zeroes.  In 1999, Family Guy, Eminem, Britney Spears, South Park, hell even Spongebob either first came out or were at their peak.

But, in 1999 we still had Clinton, the Internet was brand-new and the dot-com bubble hadn't burst yet, it was pre-9/11, there was still a lot of grunge-pop, there was tons of teen pop and not a huge amount of rap, and SNL and The Simpsons were still kinda funny.   Not to mention MTV was still pretty good, even if Beavis and Butt-head was gone, and there was still Third Rock From The Sun and even Daria I believe.

2000 and even early 2001 were more like 1997 than 2006, although they're still not hugely different from today.  I think the '90s zeitgeist spanned from September of 1991 to August of 2001.



I agree mostly with this, but Rap was still very dominent in 1999 as it is now. It's just morphed into something a little different now. But, we had Eninem, Nas, Dr. Dre, etc still around from the earlier days of Rap (even Will Smith was charting from his successes from themes he did to Men in Black and Wild Wild West)

I agree mostly with this, but Rap was still very dominent in 1999 as it is now. It's just morphed into something a little different now. But, we had Eninem, Nas, Dr. Dre, etc still around from the earlier days of Rap (even Will Smith was charting from his successes from themes he did to Men in Black and Wild Wild West)


It was big enough, for sure, but it wasn't 100% pervasive on popular culture from what I can remember, even in 1999.  Today even the kiddie stuff is hip hop-ified.
Please tell me if I'm wrong here.

It was big enough, for sure, but it wasn't 100% pervasive on popular culture from what I can remember, even in 1999.  Today even the kiddie stuff is hip hop-ified.
Please tell me if I'm wrong here.


I don't know - rap seemed more dominent then, now it's more of a hybrid. Now, Hip Hop, was also a big one, too. Again, they've both have just sort of changed a bit - but they are still the most dominant genres in pop today.

I don't know - rap seemed more dominent then, now it's more of a hybrid. Now, Hip Hop, was also a big one, too. Again, they've both have just sort of changed a bit - but they are still the most dominant genres in pop today.


Yeah, I guess.  You did have those corn pops commercials back then, but I still think it was a lot more of a rock culture in the '90s compared to now.  Of anything I'd say hip hop was bigger in the early nineties.

Rap/hip-hop was very popular throughout most of the '90s really, it was just different then (well the pre-1999 rap is anyway). I've been studying the charts from like 1995 and they're filled with a lot of hip-hop/rap more than I originally thought. Hip-hop has dominated radio for quite a while I guess.

Sure.

Rap/hip-hop was very popular throughout most of the '90s really, it was just different then (well the pre-1999 rap is anyway). I've been studying the charts from like 1995 and they're filled with a lot of hip-hop/rap more than I originally thought. Hip-hop has dominated radio for quite a while I guess.


Looking through my computer ...

About 18 of 100 of the Top 100 1996 songs are rap/hip hop, although that's not counting tons of r&b songs.  2005 has like 38 out of 100 hip hop, which is like a twofold increase.  But, 1996 was a weak year for rap, so that could explain.  Plus, the charts are really hip hop biased; rock outsold rap until 2002.

I don't know - rap seemed more dominent then, now it's more of a hybrid. Now, Hip Hop, was also a big one, too. Again, they've both have just sort of changed a bit - but they are still the most dominant genres in pop today.


It's not fun when he talks down on one of your teenage years (1999) is it?  Donnie, you are getting your facts wrong again.  Rap was huge in 1999.  For some of you teenagers, it's like you have this attitude that you live in the most bad ass times ever.  Every generation is guilty of this, but jeez louise, sometimes it gets to be too much.

What the hell are you going to do when the kid born in 2000 or '05 gets his facts so wrong and mixed up about today? 

"oh yeah it was around back in 2005 or '06, but it's p*ssy compared to today in 2020 when us kids are so bad ass and doing stuff like drinking and smoking weed for the first time ever in the history of humanity"

It was big enough, for sure, but it wasn't 100% pervasive on popular culture from what I can remember, even in 1999.  Today even the kiddie stuff is hip hop-ified.
Please tell me if I'm wrong here.


It was more "badass" in the Gangsta sense around, say 1989-96 or '97. 1999 was sort of the Eminem era, and yeah, there was alot of other rap around, although more as a normal thing, as opposed to being totally shocking. By then, I'm sure everyone knew it was here to stay, whereas even in 1993 it may have still been looked at by some as a passing fad.

But yeah, it's definitely more pop based now, (i.e. it's not out of place to see, like an 8 or 10 year old kid liking 50 Cent or something) although partly because it's blingy/glam stuff. Something like Tupac circa 1995 would've never been that popular in a household sense.

It was more "badass" in the Gangsta sense around, say 1989-96 or '97. 1999 was sort of the Eminem era, and yeah, there was alot of other rap around, although more as a normal thing, as opposed to being totally shocking. By then, I'm sure everyone knew it was here to stay, whereas even in 1993 it may have still been looked at by some as a passing fad.

But yeah, it's definitely more pop based now, (i.e. it's not out of place to see, like an 8 or 10 year old kid liking 50 Cent or something) although partly because it's blingy/glam stuff. Something like Tupac circa 1995 would've never been that popular in a household sense.


Yeah, songs like "Grillz" by Nelly and "Poppin' My Collar" by the Three-6 Mafia, or Usher and Sean Paul, and most of Kanye West's stuff, is essentially mild glam pop done over in a rap way, but it's not like Tupac c. 1995 that would shock your average suburban housewife in Indiana or Long Island. I think some white people probably looked at rap as a passing fad until the mid-'90s or so, when it started rivaling rock.

I guess the day that Rap has won two Oscars in the last 4 years for Best Song tells you something..  ;D  ::)

It's not fun when he talks down on one of your teenage years (1999) is it?  Donnie, you are getting your facts wrong again.  Rap was huge in 1999.  For some of you teenagers, it's like you have this attitude that you live in the most bad ass times ever.  Every generation is guilty of this, but jeez louise, sometimes it gets to be too much.

What the hell are you going to do when the kid born in 2000 or '05 gets his facts so wrong and mixed up about today? 

"oh yeah it was around back in 2005 or '06, but it's p*ssy compared to today in 2020 when us kids are so bad ass and doing stuff like drinking and smoking weed for the first time ever in the history of humanity"


I dunno, I guess I just didn't notice much of it, beyond Eminem, etc.  I noticed tons of urban R&B and boy bands, but not glam/gangsta rap.


It was more "badass" in the Gangsta sense around, say 1989-96 or '97. 1999 was sort of the Eminem era, and yeah, there was alot of other rap around, although more as a normal thing, as opposed to being totally shocking. By then, I'm sure everyone knew it was here to stay, whereas even in 1993 it may have still been looked at by some as a passing fad.

But yeah, it's definitely more pop based now, (i.e. it's not out of place to see, like an 8 or 10 year old kid liking 50 Cent or something) although partly because it's blingy/glam stuff. Something like Tupac circa 1995 would've never been that popular in a household sense.


Yeah, I've always felt that even with as much rap as the early '90s had, it was still a "rock" culture.  Hip hop wasn't here to stay for sure until Tupac and Biggie died I'd say.

I dunno, I guess I just didn't notice much of it, beyond Eminem, etc.  I noticed tons of urban R&B and boy bands, but not glam/gangsta rap.

Yeah, I've always felt that even with as much rap as the early '90s had, it was still a "rock" culture.  Hip hop wasn't here to stay for sure until Tupac and Biggie died I'd say.


The best way to say something "dominated" a time is to look at the Billboard charts. Beginning around late 1995, Rap easily found itself at the top of the #1 Singles charts and Rap has hardly ever left that spot in the last 10 years (very rare occasions - like when a big hit like the theme to "Titanic" comes around or the Macarena)

Now for Top Albums, that's been a different story - it still has a heavily influenced Rap market, but because albums appeal to a lot of different people, some albums can be hugely successful without ever making a dent on the top Ten Single charts. It's kinda interesting to see that happen.

But yeah, it's definitely more pop based now, (i.e. it's not out of place to see, like an 8 or 10 year old kid liking 50 Cent or something) although partly because it's blingy/glam stuff. Something like Tupac circa 1995 would've never been that popular in a household sense.



Totally. Rap has gotten much more watered down and pop based since then.  And it's defidently not unusal to see young kids that like rap in fact it seems to be the norm these days. Rap has become the culture of the 2000's totally something that it defidently was not in the 90's.

The best way to say something "dominated" a time is to look at the Billboard charts. Beginning around late 1995, Rap easily found itself at the top of the #1 Singles charts and Rap has hardly ever left that spot in the last 10 years (very rare occasions - like when a big hit like the theme to "Titanic" comes around or the Macarena)

Now for Top Albums, that's been a different story - it still has a heavily influenced Rap market, but because albums appeal to a lot of different people, some albums can be hugely successful without ever making a dent on the top Ten Single charts. It's kinda interesting to see that happen.


Oh without a doubt by 1995 rap was the music of choice for the youth, but I do think during the boyband era it declined a little bit.  But maybe that's just because I lived in Montana at the time, maybe they're less rap oriented there.

The best way to say something "dominated" a time is to look at the Billboard charts. Beginning around late 1995, Rap easily found itself at the top of the #1 Singles charts and Rap has hardly ever left that spot in the last 10 years (very rare occasions - like when a big hit like the theme to "Titanic" comes around or the Macarena)

Now for Top Albums, that's been a different story - it still has a heavily influenced Rap market, but because albums appeal to a lot of different people, some albums can be hugely successful without ever making a dent on the top Ten Single charts. It's kinda interesting to see that happen.


Non-rap songs to have hit the top of the chart:

"One Sweet Day"-Mariah Carey and Boyz II Men (11 weeks, early 1996)
"Because You Loved Me"-Celine Dion (7 weeks, 1996)
"Always be My Baby"-Mariah Carey (2 weeks, 1996)
"You're Makin' Me High/Let it Flow"-Toni Braxton (1 week, 1996)
"Macarena (Bayside Boys Mix)"-Los Del Rio (14 weeks, 1996)
"Unbreak My Heart"-Toni Braxton (11 weeks, 1996-1997)
"Wannabe"-Spice Girls (4 weeks, 1997)
"MMMBop"-Hanson (3 weeks, 1997)
"Honey"-Mariah Carey (3 weeks, 1997)
"Something About the Way You Look Tonight/Candle in the Wind 1997"-Elton John (15 weeks, 1997-1998)
"Truly Madly Deeply"-Savage Garden (2 weeks, 1998)
"My Heart Will Go On"-Celine Dion (2 weeks, 1998)
"My All"-Mariah Carey (1 week, 1998)
"The Boy is Mine"-Brandy and Monica (12 weeks, 1998)
"I Don't Want to Miss A Thing"-Aerosmith (4 weeks, 1998)
"The First Night"-Monica (2 weeks, 1998)
"One Week"-Barenaked Ladies (1 week, 1998)
"The First Night"-Monica (3 weeks, 1998)
"Doo Wop (That Thing)"-Lauryn Hill (2 weeks, 1998)
"I'm Your Angel"-R. Kelly and Celine Dion (6 weeks, 1998-1999)
"Have You Ever"-Brandy (2 weeks, 1999)
"...Baby One More Time"-Britney Spears (2 weeks, 1999)
"Believe"-Cher (4 weeks, 1999)
"No Scrubs"-TLC (4 weeks, 1999)
"Livin' La Vida Loca"-Ricky Martin (5 weeks, 1999)
"If You Had My Love"-Jennifer Lopez (5 weeks, 1999)
"Bills Bills Bills"-Destiny's Child (1 week, 1999)
"Genie in a Bottle"-Christina Aguilera (5 weeks, 1999)
"Bailamos"-Enrique Iglesisas (2 weeks, 1999)
"Unpretty"-TLC (3 weeks, 1999)
"Smooth"-Santana featuring Rob Thomas (12 weeks, 1999-2000)
"What a Girl Wants"-Christina Aguilera (2 weeks, 2000)
"I Knew I Loved You"-Savage Garden (4 weeks, 2000)
"Thank God I Found You"-Mariah Carey (1 week, 2000)
"Amazed"-Lonestar (2 weeks, 2000)
"Say My Name"-Destiny's Child (3 weeks, 2000)
"Maria Maria"-Santana featuring Wyclef Jean (10 weeks, 2000)
"Try Again"-Aaliyah (1 week, 2000)
"Everything You Want"-Vertical Horizon (1 week, 2000)
"Bent"-Matchbox Twenty (1 week, 2000)
"Doesn't Really Matter"-Janet Jackson (3 weeks, 2000)
"Music"-Madonna (4 weeks, 2000)
"Come on Over Baby (All I Want is You)"-Christina Aguilera (4 weeks, 2000)
"With Arms Wide Open"-Creed (1 week, 2000)
"Independent Women pt. 1"-Destiny's Child (11 weeks, 2000-2001)
"Butterfly"-Crazy Town (2 weeks, 2001)
"All for You"-Janet Jackson (7 weeks, 2001)
"Lady Marmalade"-Lil' Kim etc. (5 weeks, 2001)
"Bootylicious"-Destiny's Child (2 weeks, 2001)
"Fallin'"-Alicia Keys (6 weeks, 2001)
"I'm Real"-Jennifer Lopez (5 weeks, 2001)
"Family Affair"-Mary J. Blige (6 weeks, 2001)
"How U Remind Me"-Nickelback (4 weeks, 2001-2002)
"Ain't it Funny"-Jennifer Lopez (6 weeks, 2002)
"Foolish"-Ashanti (10 weeks, 2002)
"A Moment Like This"-Kelly Clarkson (2 weeks, 2002)
"Bump, Bump, Bump"-B2K (1 week, 2003)
"All I Have"-Jennifer Lopez (4 weeks, 2003)
"This is the Night"-Clay Aiken (2 weeks, 2003)
"Crazy in Love"-Beyonce (8 weeks, 2003)-not sure if rap or rap-styled R&B
"Let Me Love You"-Mario (9 weeks, 2005)
"Inside Your Heaven"-Carrie Underwood (1 week, 2005)
"We Belong Together"-Mariah Carey (4 weeks, 2005)
"Don't Forget About Us"-Mariah Carey (2 weeks, 2005-2006)
"You're Beautiful"-James Blunt (1 week, 2006)
"So Sick"-Ne-Yo (2 weeks, 2006)

I didn't include "Run It!", it's pretty glam rap-styled. From this chart, it appears rap was pretty big in 1996-1997, rock dominated into 2002, and 2002-2005 as basically been rap or glam-rap styled R&B, some of which I included in here, even if it's neo-hip-hop. 2004 had no non-rap hit singles. It seems to be losing ground lately, especially if Powter's "Bad Day" hits, which would be the second hit by a non-R&B or rap group since like 2002 that ISN'T American Idol.

I think there were actually alot of singles from c. 1998 that should've charted based on radio play, but never did because they weren't released as singles. This includes "Torn" by Natalie Imbruglia, a pop tune that's one of the biggest hits of the '90s.

Non-rap songs to have hit the top of the chart:

"One Sweet Day"-Mariah Carey and Boyz II Men (11 weeks, early 1996)
"Because You Loved Me"-Celine Dion (7 weeks, 1996)
"Always be My Baby"-Mariah Carey (2 weeks, 1996)
"You're Makin' Me High/Let it Flow"-Toni Braxton (1 week, 1996)
"Macarena (Bayside Boys Mix)"-Los Del Rio (14 weeks, 1996)
"Unbreak My Heart"-Toni Braxton (11 weeks, 1996-1997)
"Wannabe"-Spice Girls (4 weeks, 1997)
"MMMBop"-Hanson (3 weeks, 1997)
"Honey"-Mariah Carey (3 weeks, 1997)
"Something About the Way You Look Tonight/Candle in the Wind 1997"-Elton John (15 weeks, 1997-1998)
"Truly Madly Deeply"-Savage Garden (2 weeks, 1998)
"My Heart Will Go On"-Celine Dion (2 weeks, 1998)
"My All"-Mariah Carey (1 week, 1998)
"The Boy is Mine"-Brandy and Monica (12 weeks, 1998)
"I Don't Want to Miss A Thing"-Aerosmith (4 weeks, 1998)
"The First Night"-Monica (2 weeks, 1998)
"One Week"-Barenaked Ladies (1 week, 1998)
"The First Night"-Monica (3 weeks, 1998)
"Doo Wop (That Thing)"-Lauryn Hill (2 weeks, 1998)
"I'm Your Angel"-R. Kelly and Celine Dion (6 weeks, 1998-1999)
"Have You Ever"-Brandy (2 weeks, 1999)
"...Baby One More Time"-Britney Spears (2 weeks, 1999)
"Believe"-Cher (4 weeks, 1999)
"No Scrubs"-TLC (4 weeks, 1999)
"Livin' La Vida Loca"-Ricky Martin (5 weeks, 1999)
"If You Had My Love"-Jennifer Lopez (5 weeks, 1999)
"Bills Bills Bills"-Destiny's Child (1 week, 1999)
"Genie in a Bottle"-Christina Aguilera (5 weeks, 1999)
"Bailamos"-Enrique Iglesisas (2 weeks, 1999)
"Unpretty"-TLC (3 weeks, 1999)
"Smooth"-Santana featuring Rob Thomas (12 weeks, 1999-2000)
"What a Girl Wants"-Christina Aguilera (2 weeks, 2000)
"I Knew I Loved You"-Savage Garden (4 weeks, 2000)
"Thank God I Found You"-Mariah Carey (1 week, 2000)
"Amazed"-Lonestar (2 weeks, 2000)
"Say My Name"-Destiny's Child (3 weeks, 2000)
"Maria Maria"-Santana featuring Wyclef Jean (10 weeks, 2000)
"Try Again"-Aaliyah (1 week, 2000)
"Everything You Want"-Vertical Horizon (1 week, 2000)
"Bent"-Matchbox Twenty (1 week, 2000)
"Doesn't Really Matter"-Janet Jackson (3 weeks, 2000)
"Music"-Madonna (4 weeks, 2000)
"Come on Over Baby (All I Want is You)"-Christina Aguilera (4 weeks, 2000)
"With Arms Wide Open"-Creed (1 week, 2000)
"Independent Women pt. 1"-Destiny's Child (11 weeks, 2000-2001)
"Butterfly"-Crazy Town (2 weeks, 2001)
"All for You"-Janet Jackson (7 weeks, 2001)
"Lady Marmalade"-Lil' Kim etc. (5 weeks, 2001)
"Bootylicious"-Destiny's Child (2 weeks, 2001)
"Fallin'"-Alicia Keys (6 weeks, 2001)
"I'm Real"-Jennifer Lopez (5 weeks, 2001)
"Family Affair"-Mary J. Blige (6 weeks, 2001)
"How U Remind Me"-Nickelback (4 weeks, 2001-2002)
"Ain't it Funny"-Jennifer Lopez (6 weeks, 2002)
"Foolish"-Ashanti (10 weeks, 2002)
"A Moment Like This"-Kelly Clarkson (2 weeks, 2002)
"Bump, Bump, Bump"-B2K (1 week, 2003)
"All I Have"-Jennifer Lopez (4 weeks, 2003)
"This is the Night"-Clay Aiken (2 weeks, 2003)
"Crazy in Love"-Beyonce (8 weeks, 2003)-not sure if rap or rap-styled R&B
"Let Me Love You"-Mario (9 weeks, 2005)
"Inside Your Heaven"-Carrie Underwood (1 week, 2005)
"We Belong Together"-Mariah Carey (4 weeks, 2005)
"Don't Forget About Us"-Mariah Carey (2 weeks, 2005-2006)
"You're Beautiful"-James Blunt (1 week, 2006)
"So Sick"-Ne-Yo (2 weeks, 2006)

I didn't include "Run It!", it's pretty glam rap-styled. From this chart, it appears rap was pretty big in 1996-1997, rock dominated into 2002, and 2002-2005 as basically been rap or glam-rap styled R&B, some of which I included in here, even if it's neo-hip-hop. 2004 had no non-rap hit singles. It seems to be losing ground lately, especially if Powter's "Bad Day" hits, which would be the second hit by a non-R&B or rap group since like 2002 that ISN'T American Idol.

I think there were actually alot of singles from c. 1998 that should've charted based on radio play, but never did because they weren't released as singles. This includes "Torn" by Natalie Imbruglia, a pop tune that's one of the biggest hits of the '90s.


Yeah, I think the absolute peak of rap was either 2003 or '05, it seems to be declining a bit.

Oh without a doubt by 1995 rap was the music of choice for the youth, but I do think during the boyband era it declined a little bit.  But maybe that's just because I lived in Montana at the time, maybe they're less rap oriented there.


Well, I concede a bit because there were quite a bit non-rap singles that charted fairly well between 1995 and 2000. Some I'll never understand they charted for so many weeks.

Yeah, I think the absolute peak of rap was either 2003 or '05, it seems to be declining a bit.



I agree. I think the absolute peak of glam rap was last year. Now it does seem to be in some sort of decline.

I agree. I think the absolute peak of glam rap was last year. Now it does seem to be in some sort of decline.



Thank God.  It'll be a good day when that crap is no longer played all the time.  Kinda like disco and swing.

Thank God.  It'll be a good day when that crap is no longer played all the time.  Kinda like disco and swing.



Ditto. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that it's inescapable. You cant go anywhere without hearing it or seeing it these days.

Thank God.  It'll be a good day when that crap is no longer played all the time.  Kinda like disco and swing.


Disco and swing are fine by me any day of the week. But, rap has turned into something very depressing and extremely homogeneous.

I agree. I think the absolute peak of glam rap was last year. Now it does seem to be in some sort of decline.


I think we were right in saying "Grillz" and "Laffy Taffy" are to precipitate a backlash.  The hair metal songs of 1990 didn't destroy the genre until fall of 1991.

I think we were right in saying "Grillz" and "Laffy Taffy" are to precipitate a backlash.  The hair metal songs of 1990 didn't destroy the genre until fall of 1991.


So when would that destroy the genre, by early 2008? I think it's only going to get stupider from here, though.

So when would that destroy the genre, by early 2008? I think it's only going to get stupider from here, though.


Perhaps the late '00s wave of "cheesy pop" will be stuff like that, or Kevin Federline (sp?)'s "rap" album due to come out. I think by 2010 it'll definitely look stupid.

In fact, I've always sort of stuck to the theory that the psuedo 1999ish culture would be around until 2009 or 2010. And, when a genre of music or fashion gets really cheesy for a couple years, that's usually a sign that it's reaching its end. Almost as if we're all saying, Hey, since this is gonna look dumb three years from now, we're gonna take it to the extreme while we can. ;D

This is what NKOTB and Warrant were in 1989, and by 1992 they were yesterday's news.

Perhaps the late '00s wave of "cheesy pop" will be stuff like that, or Kevin Federline (sp?)'s "rap" album due to come out. I think by 2010 it'll definitely look stupid.

In fact, I've always sort of stuck to the theory that the psuedo 1999ish culture would be around until 2009 or 2010. And, when a genre of music or fashion gets really cheesy for a couple years, that's usually a sign that it's reaching its end. Almost as if we're all saying, Hey, since this is gonna look dumb three years from now, we're gonna take it to the extreme while we can. ;D

This is what NKOTB and Warrant were in 1989, and by 1992 they were yesterday's news.


To answer you and velvetoneo, I always sort of figured it would end around '07, so I guess we're not too far off (not in 1999, then I though people would be over by 2001!  ;D).  I think it will continue through '07 and into 2011, but during 2010-2012 it will seem incredibly cheesy, and the '80s and early '90s born Gen Yers will be disenfranchised and rap, emo, etc. will fall out of style.

To answer you and velvetoneo, I always sort of figured it would end around '07, so I guess we're not too far off (not in 1999, then I though people would be over by 2001!  ;D).  I think it will continue through '07 and into 2011, but during 2010-2012 it will seem incredibly cheesy, and the '80s and early '90s born Gen Yers will be disenfranchised and rap, emo, etc. will fall out of style.



Yeah, It'll continue through 2007 at least but will continue to get dumber and dumber. Something new will pop up in 2008 and rap's popularity will have a huge decline in 2009.

Perhaps the late '00s wave of "cheesy pop" will be stuff like that, or Kevin Federline (sp?)'s "rap" album due to come out. I think by 2010 it'll definitely look stupid.

In fact, I've always sort of stuck to the theory that the psuedo 1999ish culture would be around until 2009 or 2010. And, when a genre of music or fashion gets really cheesy for a couple years, that's usually a sign that it's reaching its end. Almost as if we're all saying, Hey, since this is gonna look dumb three years from now, we're gonna take it to the extreme while we can. ;D

This is what NKOTB and Warrant were in 1989, and by 1992 they were yesterday's news.



Yeah, I look at 2006 being like 1990 in the fact that glam rap and 00's music as a whole will reach it's absolute peak of it's stupidity. K-Fed and Paris Hilton coming out with albums this year proves my point. But as Donnie pointed out(I think) 2006 wont be the end of glam rap, just like 1990 wasn't the end of hair metal, it's just the beginning of the end.(btw have you read my signature? It is Warrant :D)

Yeah, I look at 2006 being like 1990 in the fact that glam rap and 00's music as a whole will reach it's absolute peak of it's stupidity. K-Fed and Paris Hilton coming out with albums this year proves my point. But as Donnie pointed out(I think) 2006 wont be the end of glam rap, just like 1990 wasn't the end of hair metal, it's just the beginning of the end.(btw have you read my signature? It is Warrant :D)


Yeah when you think about it late '80s music reached its height of stupidity in 1990 and early 1991.  I don't think there's any year besides maybe 1999 or 1997 that has a higher amount of cheesy artists than 1990.

Yeah when you think about it late '80s music reached its height of stupidity in 1990 and early 1991.  I don't think there's any year besides maybe 1999 or 1997 that has a higher amount of cheesy artists than 1990.



1999, 1997, and now 2006 ;D

1999, 1997, and now 2006 ;D


;D

I got a bill in my mouth like Hilary Rodham.  ;D

;D

I got a bill in my mouth like Hilary Rodham.  ;D



;D

Somewhere this question of 1989 being culturally part of the 90's went into a huge rap conversation. Didn't rap start around 1982 with the Sugar Hill Gang? I remember movies that had a lot of breakdancing in them in the early 80's, Breakdancin' and Breakdancin'2 Electric Bugaloo. I don't remember what kind of music was being played, but it was kind of it's own little section of the 80's that may or may not have influenced McHammer pants and whatnot!  Growing up in Washington, grunge didn't even seem to make a huge splash until 1992 even though it started before that. In 1987, I dressed like Madonna, by 1989, I dressed like Alice Cooper, by 1990, for some reason, everyone was wearing plaid shirts and cowboy boots, it wasn't until 92, that people at home were even dressing grunge. I remember going downtown and sitting in a club and listening to grunge and/or getting into the mosh pits (do they still do that because by 1994, I didn't see those anymore) and just feeling like a new era had finally begun. Maybe it was because I was 21, but I felt that people in general were maturing (could have been just me). I also felt a little less safe in the world. For some reason, I still felt like a safe 17 year old in 1989, whereas by 92' I didn't. I remember Wayne's World being part of SNL during 1990, not sure when it started and it was the first time I actually wanted to watch SNL. I think Wayne and Garth helped moved people out of the 80's and into the 90's.  Looking back on it, for me it's not a question of 1989 being part of the 90's but rather, since I graduated in 1990, I still think of 1990 as the ending of the 80's for myself. Yeah, I graduated in 90 but really, I feel like I graduated in the 80's because I grew up in the 80's.

Somewhere this question of 1989 being culturally part of the 90's went into a huge rap conversation. Didn't rap start around 1982 with the Sugar Hill Gang? I remember movies that had a lot of breakdancing in them in the early 80's, Breakdancin' and Breakdancin'2 Electric Bugaloo. I don't remember what kind of music was being played, but it was kind of it's own little section of the 80's that may or may not have influenced McHammer pants and whatnot!  Growing up in Washington, grunge didn't even seem to make a huge splash until 1992 even though it started before that. In 1987, I dressed like Madonna, by 1989, I dressed like Alice Cooper, by 1990, for some reason, everyone was wearing plaid shirts and cowboy boots, it wasn't until 92, that people at home were even dressing grunge. I remember going downtown and sitting in a club and listening to grunge and/or getting into the mosh pits (do they still do that because by 1994, I didn't see those anymore) and just feeling like a new era had finally begun. Maybe it was because I was 21, but I felt that people in general were maturing (could have been just me). I also felt a little less safe in the world. For some reason, I still felt like a safe 17 year old in 1989, whereas by 92' I didn't. I remember Wayne's World being part of SNL during 1990, not sure when it started and it was the first time I actually wanted to watch SNL. I think Wayne and Garth helped moved people out of the 80's and into the 90's.  Looking back on it, for me it's not a question of 1989 being part of the 90's but rather, since I graduated in 1990, I still think of 1990 as the ending of the 80's for myself. Yeah, I graduated in 90 but really, I feel like I graduated in the 80's because I grew up in the 80's.


Suger Hill Gang's Rapper's Delight debuted in 1979.  Rap was rather gradual. It started off as more of a fun, kind of novelty thing. Then around the late 80's, artists like MC Lyte, LL Cool J, Queen Latifah seemed to have more political statements inserted into their work. The early 90's started off the more darker side of rap with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg and Tupac mainly dominating the scene. Yet, all before the 90's, rap was more fun - it had more catchy hooks and the lyrics were audible. By the time, the 90's came around, everything had a darker tone to it.

I have to cut this short, but I will try again later.

Suger Hill Gang's Rapper's Delight debuted in 1979.  Rap was rather gradual. It started off as more of a fun, kind of novelty thing. Then around the late 80's, artists like MC Lyte, LL Cool J, Queen Latifah seemed to have more political statements inserted into their work. The early 90's started off the more darker side of rap with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg and Tupac mainly dominating the scene. Yet, all before the 90's, rap was more fun - it had more catchy hooks and the lyrics were audible. By the time, the 90's came around, everything had a darker tone to it.

I have to cut this short, but I will try again later.


When did things start getting dark?  I wasn't there, so from your personal experience at what point did rap become hard and raw instead of cheesy?

When did things start getting dark?  I wasn't there, so from your personal experience at what point did rap become hard and raw instead of cheesy?


Rap seemed more cheesy up until lets say 1993. That's when both Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg came out with that rap song "Gin & Juice" I was like "Whoa, rap is like this?" when I saw that video. After that point, it seemed to carry on a whole new attitude. (My responses are going to be short because I was a total dunce today and decided to pick up a piping hot plate from the microwave barehanded and now have a blistered finger)

Rap seemed more cheesy up until lets say 1993. That's when both Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg came out with that rap song "Gin & Juice" I was like "Whoa, rap is like this?" when I saw that video. After that point, it seemed to carry on a whole new attitude. (My responses are going to be short because I was a total dunce today and decided to pick up a piping hot plate from the microwave barehanded and now have a blistered finger)



I agree. Most rap in the pre-gangsta rap days was pretty cheesy. I'd say late 1992/early 1993 was when it started to get darker.

Somewhere this question of 1989 being culturally part of the 90's went into a huge rap conversation. Didn't rap start around 1982 with the Sugar Hill Gang?


*stops reading*

Nail. Hit. Head.

Rap/hip-hop began in the early 80s.  Sugar Hill Gang, Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five.  A few years later, Public Enemy came on the scene.

Rap and hip-hop started as an urban consciousness movement. In short, the message was "Life on the streets, and in the ghetto, is hard.  Whitey may be keeping us down, but we can rise above it."

Gangsta rap hit the mainstream ca. 1988, and I'm gonna cred it to NWA's "Straight Outta Compton".  The message of gangsta rap wasn't that one could rise above it -- but that being the biggest fish (baddest gangsta) in a small pond (the urban slums) was "good enough under the circumstances, because you couldn't hope for anything better"

I have tremendous respect for the early rappers.  I even have great respect for NWA and Ice-T - for acknowledging (to my cracka ass and the cracka azzez of my fellow cracka azzez in college :) that there was nothing particularly *good*  about life in the slums of South Central LA -- life was brutal, hard, and short. 

I've got a big problem with what happened in the 90s, during which the brutality, hardness, and shortness of a life spent gang-banging wasn't merely "good enough under the circumstances", but was something to aspire to. 

Anyone who has issues with 90s rap:  Listen to (in the following order, approximately reverse chronological order, with a year or so benefit of the doubt for the west coast's gangsta movement.)

NWA: Straight outa Compton
NWA: F*ahem*k tha Police
NWA: Dopeman
NWA: 1-900-2-Compton
Ice-T: Cop Killler (1992, notable because it immediately preceded the LA / Rodney King Riots, and helped catapult Tipper Gore's PMRC music censorship movement into being taken seriously)
Ice-T: You Played Yourself (1989)
Public Enemy: I Don't Wanna Be Called Yo' Ni*ahem*ga (1991, a protest against gangsta rap)
Public Enemy: Who Stole the Soul (1990)
Public Enemy: Caught, can we get a witness?  (from 1989, a protest against the lawsuits that effectively ended sampling in rap/hip-hop)
Public Enemy: She Watch Channel Zero (1989, also notable because the sampled metal riff from Pantera found its way to industrla group KMFDM's "Godlike".)
Public Enemy: Sophisticated B*ahem*tch (1987)

I can go further back, but you get the idea of how things changed, and the point that neither the old-school rappers, nor the early gangsta rappers, considered whoring and 22-inch rims as anything worth aspiring to.  The difference between NWA and Public Enemy is that NWA used irony to say what Public Enemy said with conviction... and what most rappers of the present era lost sight of a decade ago.

The most interesting thing about the playlist I just laid out -- is the difference in the quality and variety of samples used pre/post 1989.  It's almost as if, when rap was denied the ability to sample freely from earlier artists and/or completely unrelated movies or music genres, we flipped a switch.  Hip-hop remained an (illegal, underground) musical protest movement, and mainstream rap (legal samples, as licensed by the music industry) devolved into an insturment of political control of the urban underclass.

*stops reading*



I can go further back, but you get the idea of how things changed, and the point that neither the old-school rappers, nor the early gangsta rappers, considered whoring and 22-inch rims as anything worth aspiring to.  The difference between NWA and Public Enemy is that NWA used irony to say what Public Enemy said with conviction... and what most rappers of the present era lost sight of a decade ago.

The most interesting thing about the playlist I just laid out -- is the difference in the quality and variety of samples used pre/post 1989.  It's almost as if, when rap was denied the ability to sample freely from earlier artists and/or completely unrelated movies or music genres, we flipped a switch.  Hip-hop remained an (illegal, underground) musical protest movement, and mainstream rap (legal samples, as licensed by the music industry) devolved into an insturment of political control of the urban underclass.


Very interesting. I think you made quite a case. I think it may just rest right there until someone else begs to differ.

Very interesting. I think you made quite a case. I think it may just rest right there until someone else begs to differ.


I think what ultimately would kill the old school was in 1991 when Biz Markie got in trouble for sampling.  Old school lasted up to about 1994 or '95, but I think this was really the beginning of the end of old school. 

Well, like I've said before, I remember this year like it was yesterday, and for some reason, it doesn't seem as "80's" as the rest of the decade. Maybe there was a lot of the same stuff, but it doesn't seem or feel "core 80's".

I think what ultimately would kill the old school was in 1991 when Biz Markie got in trouble for sampling.  Old school lasted up to about 1994 or '95, but I think this was really the beginning of the end of old school. 



Agreed. Gangsta didn't really kill off old school rap until the mid-90's. During 1988-1992 it's popularity grew dramatically and in 1993 it really hit the mainstream.