From looking at TV, movies, fashion, and the pop charts back then I would say 1987.

You mean the last year to have that classic 80's feel (i.e. synthpop, miami vice, hair metal, John Hughes films yuppiedom, madonna, early MTV etc.) Then yeah, I'd agree it was 1987.

In some ways though, even 1988 could still count as part of the classic 80's. Reagan was still in office and that was also when certain late 80's trends like hair metal started declining.

You mean the last year to have that classic 80's feel (i.e. synthpop, miami vice, hair metal, John Hughes films yuppiedom, madonna, early MTV etc.) Then yeah, I'd agree it was 1987.

In some ways though, even 1988 could still count as part of the classic 80's. Reagan was still in office and that was also when certain late 80's trends like hair metal started declining.


1988 was like the absolute peak of hair metal. The genre didn't decline until 1992, when grunge exploded.

1988 was like the absolute peak of hair metal. The genre didn't decline until 1992, when grunge exploded.


I always thought '87 was its peak, but I suppose you're right, it was 1988 since thats when Guns N Roses made it big. 

I always thought '87 was its peak, but I suppose you're right, it was 1988 since thats when Guns N Roses made it big.


It was also when Def Leppard's Hysteria, Bon Jovi's New Jersey, and Poison's Open Up and Say...Ahh! were really popular, among other huge successes. In fact all three of those albums, in addition to Appetite for Destruction, continued producing hit singles in 1989 as well.

1988

1988 was still a very 80s year, so I'd go for that.

Films : Big, Coming To America, Willow, Childs Play, Cocktail

Music : Whitney's "One Moment In Time", Beach Boys "Kokomo", Bon Jovi "Bad Medicine", George Michael "Faith", Rick Astley "Never Gonna Give You Up".

TV : Too many to mention. Many core 80s series were still going in 1988 and beyond.

1987 or 1988...too hard for me to choose.

George Michael "Faith", Rick Astley "Never Gonna Give You Up".


Those songs were released in 1987.

Those songs were released in 1987.

That is true.

However, here in the USA..."Faith" by George Michael was #1 and "Never Gonna Give You Up" by Rick Astley was #4 on Billboard's Year-End Hot 100 singles chart of 1988.

The last year I'm 100% about is 1987 as I think it's definitely a part of the definitive 80's and I don't there's really any debate about that one. Thing is, the 80's are all over the place which makes them a bit hard to define clearly but I guess I might go with 1988. Still, even 1989 had lots and lots of 80's culture despite a few new trends that were emerging.

The last year I'm 100% about is 1987 as I think it's definitely a part of the definitive 80's and I don't there's really any debate about that one. Thing is, the 80's are all over the place which makes them a bit hard to define clearly but I guess I might go with 1988. Still, even 1989 had lots and lots of 80's culture despite a few new trends that were emerging.

That is why I love the late 1980s (1987-1989)....they were still culturally '80s but cooler and edgier 8).

That is why I love the late 1980s (1987-1989)....they were still culturally '80s but cooler and edgier 8).


I don't really see 87 being all that different from 85 and 86 but I'd agree with 88 and 89 being sorta their own thing.

I don't really see 87 being all that different from 85 and 86 but I'd agree with 88 and 89 being sorta their own thing.

Well, one big difference 1987 had from 1985-1986 was Black Monday (Monday, October 19, 1987), when stock markets around the world crashed.

However, otherwise...yeah pretty much 1987 wasn't too different from 1985-1986.

Well, one big difference 1987 had from 1985-1986 was Black Monday (Monday, October 19, 1987), when stock markets around the world crashed.

However, otherwise...yeah pretty much 1987 wasn't too different from 1985-1986.


Yeah, I can agree with that. Overall 1987 was very similar to 1985 and 1986 but there were some events that set it apart slightly, especially near the end of the year.

Yeah, I can agree with that. Overall 1987 was very similar to 1985 and 1986 but there were some events that set it apart slightly, especially near the end of the year.

Yes, correct.

I just love 1987-1989 8).

Yes, correct.

I just love 1987-1989 8).


It was a pretty good time!

It was a pretty good time!

Yeah and I'll never get to experience that time :\'(.

So basically 1987 was the 1996 of the 80s?  :P

So basically 1987 was the 1996 of the 80s?  :P

Yeah...pretty much.

Yeah and I'll never get to experience that time :\'(.


I wish I was a lot older during this time. :-\\


So basically 1987 was the 1996 of the 80s?  :P


Nah, 1987 was a very exciting fun year. 8)

I wish I was a lot older during this time. :-\\

Yeah, you were only 4-7 years old during the late '80s.

Well, one big difference 1987 had from 1985-1986 was Black Monday (Monday, October 19, 1987), when stock markets around the world crashed.

However, otherwise...yeah pretty much 1987 wasn't too different from 1985-1986.


Not to mention, the most infamous TV hijacking also took place in '87.

Core 80's: 1983-1987

Core 90's: 1992-1996

Core 00's: 2004?-2007? (very disagreeable, 2003 seemed to have a little too much Y2K influence, 2008 seemed to have a little too much electropop influence)

Not to mention, the most infamous TV hijacking also took place in '87.

You also have the very tragic death of Pennsylvania politician R. Budd Dwyer, Treasurer of Pennsylvania (1981-1987), who killed himself in front of reporters on January 22, 1987. On that day, "Dwyer's suicide was broadcast later that day to a wide television audience across Pennsylvania."

I have actually seen the video of his suicide. It is not brutal but it's obviously just sad to see him tell reporters to stay back and then he pulled the trigger :\'(. R.I.P. R. Budd Dwyer

To me 1987 was the last core year. The last couple of years of the 80s a lot of the music and bands/artists that would be dominate in the 90s started to get recognition. Alternative groups like R.E.M, Sonic Youth, Jane's Addiction, as well as Red Hot Chilli Peppers gained notoriety in the late 80s. Gangsta rap also emerged at this time.

Not to mention the cold war came to an end as well as the Reagn era and economic boom of the 80s following Black Monday in the fall of 87.

Core 00's: 2004?-2007? (very disagreeable, 2003 seemed to have a little too much Y2K influence, 2008 seemed to have a little too much electropop influence)


The Y2K culture was entirely gone by 2003 as this was the year crunk and emo became popular, the Iraq war began and acts like Eminem and 50 Cent became mainstream.

The Y2K culture was entirely gone by 2003 as this was the year crunk and emo became popular, the Iraq war began and acts like Eminem and 50 Cent became mainstream.


Some people, however, still argue that 2003 had Y2K influences (but not that much). Most people though will agree that 2004 is undeniably a core 00's year.

Not to mention, the most infamous TV hijacking also took place in '87.


What TV hijacking? ???

What TV hijacking? ???


The Max Headroom TV Hijacking.

I'll have to say 1988. Sure, some embryonic shows and trends that would define the '90s (at least the first half) were either premiering or were early in their life span, like Married... With Children, Roseanne, the Lethal Weapon franchise, and of course gangsta rap were around, but Although the NES's popularity peak was 1987-1991, most still see the system as a core '80s thing, since it was introduced in Japan as the Famicom in 1983 and in the America in 1985. And quite honestly, 1988 isn't much different than 1987, just with a little more hair metal and New Jack Swing but still with core '80s trends like Miami Vice, Cosby Show, later new wave/synthpop groups (Duran Duran had an album that year with a Top 5 pop hit), Michael Jackson's Bad era, the peak of the S/A/W pop sound, cheesy family sitcoms like Growing Pains, Who's The Boss?, The Hogan Family, and Mr. Belvedere, computers still seen as big toys (Prodigy began their campaign in 1989), cassettes more popular than CDs with a decent amount of lingering albums available on vinyl, and the economic bull market not yet over despite that Black Friday correction. Not to mention, Disney's Oliver & Company is the most '80s of all animated Disney films!

1989 gave us a change in administration with Bush 41, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the release of the Genesis/Mega Drive, the Seinfeld Chronicles pilot, the first full-length Simpsons episode, the end of Miami Vice and Family Ties, Michael Jackson past his "Epic Trilogy" of albums that defined the 1980s for him, Prince starting to lose his edginess, the first big house/techno hits, the start of the Disney Renaissance, and grunge/alternative now a major underground genre.

The Max Headroom TV Hijacking.


In what way did he hijack? ???

In what way did he hijack? ???

"The Max Headroom broadcast signal intrusion was a television signal hijacking that occurred in Chicago, Illinois, United States on the evening of November 22, 1987. It is an example of what is known in the television business as broadcast signal intrusion. The intruder was successful in interrupting two broadcast television stations within the course of three hours. After a brief and only partially successful attempt to break into the signal of intended target of WGN-TV, the signal pirates, whose identities were never found, succeeded in getting their broadcast intruded onto WTTW during an episode of the Doctor Who serial "Horror of Fang Rock." The pirate broadcast, which lasted 90 seconds and was pre-recorded on videotape, featured an individual disguised as television character Max Headroom parodying WGN and television in general. The incident made national headlines and the people responsible have never been identified."

I'll have to say 1988. Sure, some embryonic shows and trends that would define the '90s (at least the first half) were either premiering or were early in their life span, like Married... With Children, Roseanne, the Lethal Weapon franchise, and of course gangsta rap were around, but Although the NES's popularity peak was 1987-1991, most still see the system as a core '80s thing, since it was introduced in Japan as the Famicom in 1983 and in the America in 1985. And quite honestly, 1988 isn't much different than 1987, just with a little more hair metal and New Jack Swing but still with core '80s trends like Miami Vice, Cosby Show, later new wave/synthpop groups (Duran Duran had an album that year with a Top 5 pop hit), Michael Jackson's Bad era, the peak of the S/A/W pop sound, cheesy family sitcoms like Growing Pains, Who's The Boss?, The Hogan Family, and Mr. Belvedere, computers still seen as big toys (Prodigy began their campaign in 1989), cassettes more popular than CDs with a decent amount of lingering albums available on vinyl, and the economic bull market not yet over despite that Black Friday correction. Not to mention, Disney's Oliver & Company is the most '80s of all animated Disney films!

1989 gave us a change in administration with Bush 41, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the release of the Genesis/Mega Drive, the Seinfeld Chronicles pilot, the first full-length Simpsons episode, the end of Miami Vice and Family Ties, Michael Jackson past his "Epic Trilogy" of albums that defined the 1980s for him, Prince starting to lose his edginess, the first big house/techno hits, the start of the Disney Renaissance, and grunge/alternative now a major underground genre.


I agree about 1988.

I'll have to say 1988. Sure, some embryonic shows and trends that would define the '90s (at least the first half) were either premiering or were early in their life span, like Married... With Children, Roseanne, the Lethal Weapon franchise, and of course gangsta rap were around, but Although the NES's popularity peak was 1987-1991, most still see the system as a core '80s thing, since it was introduced in Japan as the Famicom in 1983 and in the America in 1985. And quite honestly, 1988 isn't much different than 1987, just with a little more hair metal and New Jack Swing but still with core '80s trends like Miami Vice, Cosby Show, later new wave/synthpop groups (Duran Duran had an album that year with a Top 5 pop hit), Michael Jackson's Bad era, the peak of the S/A/W pop sound, cheesy family sitcoms like Growing Pains, Who's The Boss?, The Hogan Family, and Mr. Belvedere, computers still seen as big toys (Prodigy began their campaign in 1989), cassettes more popular than CDs with a decent amount of lingering albums available on vinyl, and the economic bull market not yet over despite that Black Friday correction. Not to mention, Disney's Oliver & Company is the most '80s of all animated Disney films!

1989 gave us a change in administration with Bush 41, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the release of the Genesis/Mega Drive, the Seinfeld Chronicles pilot, the first full-length Simpsons episode, the end of Miami Vice and Family Ties, Michael Jackson past his "Epic Trilogy" of albums that defined the 1980s for him, Prince starting to lose his edginess, the first big house/techno hits, the start of the Disney Renaissance, and grunge/alternative now a major underground genre.


Everything else is spot on but the only thing I'd disagree with is what's in bold. Alt. Rock had already become the biggest underground genre by 1985 with bands like The Replacements, RHCP and REM either having major label records, moderate airplay on MTV, decent spots on the hot 100 and high placements on the rock charts and billboard 200.

1986 is the last year where I look at pretty much every facet of pop culture as being unmistakably '80s.

1987 is almost there too, but you had some things that started to converge much more with what would become '90s culture that year (FOX Network, rise of rap/alternative music, simmering of Cold War tensions).

1986 is the last year where I look at pretty much every facet of pop culture as being unmistakably '80s.

1987 is almost there too, but you had some things that started to converge much more with what would become '90s culture that year (FOX Network, rise of rap/alternative music, simmering of Cold War tensions).


The rap that was popular in 1987 was nothing different than what it was before, and alternative music didn't become popular until about late 1988.

The rap that was popular in 1987 was nothing different than what it was before, and alternative music didn't become popular until about late 1988.


I'd say some of the rap from 1987 was entering 90s territory, actually. Eric B. & Rakim's Paid in Full is a huge example, thanks to its influence on lyrical creativity in hip hop, as well as some pretty cutting edge production; the title track, especially, has a really 90s sounding beat. Also, the song "Pump Up the Volume," ironically built around a sample of Eric B. & Rakim, was a huge hit in late 1987 and was definitely pushing dance-based rap into the 90s. While Straight Outta Compton was still year away, Ice-T released Rhyme Pays, an early example of gangsta rap and also one of the very first album to be given a Parental Advisory sticker.

1986 is the last year where I look at pretty much every facet of pop culture as being unmistakably '80s.

1987 is almost there too, but you had some things that started to converge much more with what would become '90s culture that year (FOX Network, rise of rap/alternative music, simmering of Cold War tensions).


Don't forget that The Simpsons started airing as part of The Tracy Ullman Show.

The rap that was popular in 1987 was nothing different than what it was before, and alternative music didn't become popular until about late 1988.


As infinity said, Eric B. and Rakim and Public Enemy were both a stylistic contrast from a lot of early-mid '80s rap and the fact that rap started to have actual top 40 success in 1987-88 was a sharp contrast to the majority of the decade.

And U2 and R.E.M. both rose to mega-star status in the U.S. in 1987 with alternative releases.

The rap that was popular in 1987 was nothing different than what it was before, and alternative music didn't become popular until about late 1988.


Alternative music picked up pretty quickly after R.E.M.'s Murmur in 1983. They didn't have their first top 40 hit until 1987 but they did get a lot of airplay on MTV and charted pretty high on the mainstream rock charts with some decent placement on the hot 100. Their albums Reckoning and Fables of the Reconstruction both hit #27 and #28 on the Billboard 200 in 1984 and 1985 (respectively) so the albums themselves even got relatively high placement.


And U2 and R.E.M. both rose to mega-star status in the U.S. in 1987 with alternative releases.


U2 were already a huge band in 1984 with their hit Pride and their album The Unforgettable Fire.


I'd say some of the rap from 1987 was entering 90s territory, actually. Eric B. & Rakim's Paid in Full is a huge example, thanks to its influence on lyrical creativity in hip hop, as well as some pretty cutting edge production; the title track, especially, has a really 90s sounding beat. Also, the song "Pump Up the Volume," ironically built around a sample of Eric B. & Rakim, was a huge hit in late 1987 and was definitely pushing dance-based rap into the 90s. While Straight Outta Compton was still year away, Ice-T released Rhyme Pays, an early example of gangsta rap and also one of the very first album to be given a Parental Advisory sticker.


I don't think that song hit the top 40 chart until January 1988 while peaking a few months later.

The rap that was popular in 1987 was nothing different than what it was before, and alternative music didn't become popular until about late 1988.


You had Tone Loc and Young MC within the next year or so.

Don't forget that The Simpsons started airing as part of The Tracy Ullman Show.


What's that got to do with anything?

I'd say some of the rap from 1987 was entering 90s territory, actually. Eric B. & Rakim's Paid in Full is a huge example, thanks to its influence on lyrical creativity in hip hop, as well as some pretty cutting edge production; the title track, especially, has a really 90s sounding beat. Also, the song "Pump Up the Volume," ironically built around a sample of Eric B. & Rakim, was a huge hit in late 1987 and was definitely pushing dance-based rap into the 90s. While Straight Outta Compton was still year away, Ice-T released Rhyme Pays, an early example of gangsta rap and also one of the very first album to be given a Parental Advisory sticker.



As infinity said, Eric B. and Rakim and Public Enemy were both a stylistic contrast from a lot of early-mid '80s rap and the fact that rap started to have actual top 40 success in 1987-88 was a sharp contrast to the majority of the decade.

And U2 and R.E.M. both rose to mega-star status in the U.S. in 1987 with alternative releases.



Alternative music picked up pretty quickly after R.E.M.'s Murmur in 1983. They didn't have their first top 40 hit until 1987 but they did get a lot of airplay on MTV and charted pretty high on the mainstream rock charts with some decent placement on the hot 100. Their albums Reckoning and Fables of the Reconstruction both hit #27 and #28 on the Billboard 200 in 1984 and 1985 (respectively) so the albums themselves even got relatively high placement.

U2 were already a huge band in 1984 with their hit Pride and their album The Unforgettable Fire.

I don't think that song hit the top 40 chart until January 1988 while peaking a few months later.


So the 80's zeitgeist ended in 1986? Shame, I wish it lasted longer.

So the 80's zeitgeist ended in 1986? Shame, I wish it lasted longer.

v=-1iezWmCqlM
I don't see this as the end of the 80s zeitgeist
1986 is a lot more core but even comparing it to 1990 it's infinitely more 80s
a lot of the songs and fashions would  fit right into the mid 80s and so
would the attitudes. Especially before the 87 crash

v=-1iezWmCqlM
I don't see this as the end of the 80s zeitgeist
1986 is a lot more core but even comparing it to 1990 it's infinitely more 80s
a lot of the songs and fashions would  fit right into the mid 80s and so
would the attitudes. Especially before the 87 crash


What was the YouTube video you tried to link? It doesn't seem to work.

So the 80's zeitgeist ended in 1986? Shame, I wish it lasted longer.


No. Despite some small developments in 1987 and a few more developments in 1988, the 80's vibe was still very strong during these two years and I'd include them in with the "core" 80's. Even though it still had strong ties to the 80's, 1989 is really where things started to noticeably deviate from 80's culture.

If you want definitive 80's, look no further than 1985-1988.

What was the YouTube video you tried to link? It doesn't seem to work.



-1iezWmCqlM

This is extremely 80s to me

I believe that 1987 is very '80s.

I don't think that song hit the top 40 chart until January 1988 while peaking a few months later.


It was already a big hit in its native UK in 1987 and was still released in America later that same year.

It was already a big hit in its native UK in 1987 and was still released in America later that same year.

"native UK"? ??? Eric B. & Rakim are Americans.

It was already a big hit in its native UK in 1987 and was still released in America later that same year.


Fair point, though strictly speaking of the US, it didn't become a hit until '88.


"native UK"? ??? Eric B. & Rakim are Americans.


We're talking about Pump up the Volume by M/A/R/R/S.

We're talking about Pump up the Volume by M/A/R/R/S.


Ironically though, it was specifically in the UK that "I Know You Got Soul" and "Paid in Full" were legit hit singles, peaking at #13 and #15, respectively.

Ironically though, it was specifically in the UK that "I Know You Got Soul" and "Paid in Full" were legit hit singles, peaking at #13 and #15, respectively.


I noticed that as I was going over the charts. Pretty crazy! The UK always seemed to be way ahead of the US with their hits.

We're talking about Pump up the Volume by M/A/R/R/S.

Who's that? ???

Who's that? ???


They did this one song:

w9gOQgfPW4Y

I noticed that as I was going over the charts. Pretty crazy! The UK always seemed to be way ahead of the US with their hits.


A good example of this is the legendary "Rock Around The Clock" (thought to be the song that revolutioned rock music) which didn't reach number 1 in the US until summer 1955 but already topped the UK charts in January of that year.

A good example of this is the legendary "Rock Around The Clock" (thought to be the song that revolutioned rock music) which didn't reach number 1 in the US until summer 1955 but already topped the UK charts in January of that year.


Huh, I didn't know that! :o Neat fact!

-1iezWmCqlM

This is extremely 80s to me


I agree, between 1987-1989 was the final good years of 80's music.

I agree, between 1987-1989 was the final good years of 80's music.


I agree too.

They did this one song:

w9gOQgfPW4Y

OH OK :o.

Abs.

Abs.


What's that mean?  ???

I agree, between 1987-1989 was the final good years of 80's music.


Yes! 1989 and 1990 were the last years to have great 80's classic hits.

Yes! 1989 and 1990 were the last years to have great 80's classic hits.



Then they transitioned into a different sound.

Then they transitioned into a different sound.


I agree. Around 1991-1992 is when 90's styled music took over.

I agree. Around 1991-1992 is when 90's styled music took over.

I disagree. 1993 is the first year in which '90s style songs overtook '80s style songs.

I disagree. 1993 is the first year in which '90s style songs overtook '80s style songs.


Based on what?

Based on what?

Based on the music. What else? ???

Based on the music. What else? ???


Yes but what music? How did it change in 1993? That was a baseless statement.

Yes but what music? How did it change in 1993? That was a baseless statement.

Baseless statement? Why? '90s style music took over the charts over '80s style music in 1993.

Baseless statement? Why? '90s style music took over the charts over '80s style music in 1993.


The point I was making is if you're going to make a statement like that you should explain why.

But anyways, I don't agree that 1993 was the first musical 90's year. Most music historians will state that late 1991 and early 1992 was when the music changed from the 80's sound to 90's. 1992 was when grunge became popular as well as house and hardcore rap.

The point I was making is if you're going to make a statement like that you should explain why.

But anyways, I don't agree that 1993 was the first musical 90's year. Most music historians will state that late 1991 and early 1992 was when the music changed from the 80's sound to 90's. 1992 was when grunge became popular as well as house and hardcore rap.

Late 1991 to early 1992 is when the transition started but 1993 was the first full year where '90s style music overtook'80s sounding music. Anyways, I really don't care either way if I'm wrong or not.

Late 1991 to early 1992 is when the transition started but 1993 was the first full year where '90s style music overtook'80s sounding music. Anyways, I really don't care either way if I'm wrong or not.


I won't completely disagree with you though. I think while the 90's culture was in the majority in 1992, 80's culture wasn't completely dead until about early 1993, when Clinton took office.

I won't completely disagree with you though. I think while the 90's culture was in the majority in 1992, 80's culture wasn't completely dead until about early 1993, when Clinton took office.

Yeah I can basically agree with that.

You could definitely 'get a sense' of the 80's fading away in 1991/1992, but yeah, 1993 was when the 90's proudly said, "I Am HERE!!!"

You could definitely 'get a sense' of the 80's fading away in 1991/1992, but yeah, 1993 was when the 90's proudly said, "I Am HERE!!!"

I agree.

I won't completely disagree with you though. I think while the 90's culture was in the majority in 1992, 80's culture wasn't completely dead until about early 1993, when Clinton took office.


'80s culture (I.e. Star Wars movies, Golden Age SNL, and the JAWS sequels) was dead long before early 1993, but I hear what you're saying. '90s culture (i.e. Married with Children, Murphy Brown, and Roseanne) really went downhill after 1992.

Baseless statement? Why? '90s style music took over the charts over '80s style music in 1993.


I've listened to pretty much every top 40 chart from the 1990s and would say that was more like spring or summer 1991. There was still a fair (20-45% perhaps) amount of '80s sounding stuff on the top 40 up through probably about mid 1993, but it really wasn't a majority after that first part of 1991. The charts in 1991 and 1992 were filled with house, new jack swing, and rap.

I've listened to pretty much every top 40 chart from the 1990s and would say that was more like spring or summer 1991. There was still a fair (20-45% perhaps) amount of '80s sounding stuff on the top 40 up through probably about mid 1993, but it really wasn't a majority after that first part of 1991. The charts in 1991 and 1992 were filled with house, new jack swing, and rap.


Yeah, even though mainstream rock music wasn't really solidly 90s until 1993 (late 1991 if you count the grassroots success of grunge), pop and dance genres were, for the most part, solidly distinguished from the late 80s for most of the early 90s. Even in 1990, 90s style music was pretty common; that year had stuff like "U Can't Toucch This," "The Humpty Dance," "Close to You," "Heartbeat," "All Around the World," "Get Up! (Before the Night Is Over)," and "Sending All My Love." By 1992, there were only a handful of exceptions, like "Everything Changes" and "Baby Got Back," which were stylistically closer to the 80s than the 90s.

To me, NJS of the early '90s (1990-1993) sounds closer to the '80s than '90s.

To me, NJS of the early '90s (1990-1993) sounds closer to the '80s than '90s.


A few songs are - "She Ain't Worth It," "Rub You the Right Way," and "Take Time" are big examples - but for the most part, early 90s new jack swing lacks 80s-style instrumentation and is more comparable to pop songs from later in the decade like NSYNC's "I Want You Back," Boyzone's "So Good," and George Michael's "Fastlove."

A few songs are - "She Ain't Worth It," "Rub You the Right Way," and "Take Time" are big examples - but for the most part, early 90s new jack swing lacks 80s-style instrumentation and is more comparable to pop songs from later in the decade like NSYNC's "I Want You Back," Boyzone's "So Good," and George Michael's "Fastlove."

Not to me. I don't see much comparison between New Jack Swing and late '90s boybands. I have listened to a video of NJS hits from 1987-1993 and most of them sound very '80s and none of them sound like NSYNC, BSB, George Michael or any other musical artists.

Not to me. I don't see much comparison between New Jack Swing and late '90s boybands. I have listened to a video of NJS hits from 1987-1993 and most of them sound very '80s and none of them sound like NSYNC, BSB, George Michael or any other musical artists.


Would you really classify "Humpin' Around," "Too Funky," "Ain't 2 Proud 2 Beg," "Close to You," or "I Wanna Sex You Up" as songs that sound like they belong in 1987-1989? Snares that crashed were replaced by ones that lip-popped, basslines got smother, and in general the genre was groovier and more soulful by the early 90s than it had been during a time it was edgier and heavier.

Yeah, even though mainstream rock music wasn't really solidly 90s until 1993 (late 1991 if you count the grassroots success of grunge), pop and dance genres were, for the most part, solidly distinguished from the late 80s for most of the early 90s. Even in 1990, 90s style music was pretty common; that year had stuff like "U Can't Toucch This," "The Humpty Dance," "Close to You," "Heartbeat," "All Around the World," "Get Up! (Before the Night Is Over)," and "Sending All My Love." By 1992, there were only a handful of exceptions, like "Everything Changes" and "Baby Got Back," which were stylistically closer to the 80s than the 90s.


I agree, except for Sending All My Love by Linear. That's a total '80s holdover from the Latin freestyle genre, which basically died after 1992.

Would you really classify "Humpin' Around," "Too Funky," "Ain't 2 Proud 2 Beg," "Close to You," or "I Wanna Sex You Up" as songs that sound like they belong in 1987-1989? Snares that crashed were replaced by ones that lip-popped, basslines got smother, and in general the genre was groovier and more soulful by the early 90s than it had been during a time it was edgier and heavier.

I mean yeah...they sound closer to music from 1987-1989 than music from 1997-1999, IMO. Also, I know that we've had this convo before, lol.

I think something from the early 90's like Humpin' Around sound worlds away from songs like Every Little Step.

I mean yeah...they sound closer to music from 1987-1989 than music from 1997-1999, IMO. Also, I know that we've had this convo before, lol.


How about the mid-90s? Are songs like "This Is How We Do It" and Eternal's "Stay" 80s, too? I really don't understand what similarities you hear between the early 90s examples I listed and late 80s new jack swing songs like "I Want Her," "Every Little Step," and "Tell Me Why," nor the radical differences from mid and late 90s new jack swing. What specifically causes you to feel the way you feel?

I think something from the early 90's like Humpin' Around sounds worlds away from songs like Every Little Step.

I didn't say that they sound the same. Early '90s NJS sounds closer to late '80s music than late '90s music.

A NJS song such as "This Is How We Do It" by Montell Jordan from 1995 is definitely '90s sounding and doesn't sound anything like music from the late '80s.

I didn't say that they sound the same. Early '90s NJS sounds closer to late '80s music than late '90s music.

I think "Humpin' Around" isn't that stylistically different from "Everybody (Backstreet's Back)" and "I Want You Back," despite being half a decade older.

A NJS song such as "This Is How We Do It" by Montell Jordan from 1995 is definitely '90s sounding and doesn't sound anything like music from the late '80s.


Yeah, but the point is most early 90s new jack swing is significantly closer in style to songs like "This Is How We Do It" than to late 80s songs, aside from 90s progenitors like "Back to Life" and "All Around the World."

I think "Humpin' Around" isn't that stylistically different from "Everybody (Backstreet's Back)" and "I Want You Back," despite being half a decade older.
Fair enough.


Yeah, but the point is most early 90s new jack swing is significantly closer in style to songs like "This Is How We Do It" than to late 80s songs, aside from 90s progenitors like "Back to Life" and "All Around the World."

Well, I guess you're right.

So basically 1987 was the 1996 of the 80s?  :P


It might be decadeology, but I think that's a pretty good comparison. There were subtle HW Bush era elements in 87 (early NJS, debuts of TMNT and Married... With Children) just as there were millennium era elements in 96 (early teen pop, internet becoming more mainstream, etc.). But overall, both years were core 80s/90s. 88 and 97 are more transitional, but I would probably still consider them core as well.


I didn't say that they sound the same. Early '90s NJS sounds closer to late '80s music than late '90s music.

A NJS song such as "This Is How We Do It" by Montell Jordan from 1995 is definitely '90s sounding and doesn't sound anything like music from the late '80s.


Well "This Is How We Do It" does have somewhat of an 80s sound due to the heavy sampling of Slick Rick's "Children's Story."

Well "This Is How We Do It" does have somewhat of an 80s sound due to the heavy sampling of Slick Rick's "Children's Story."

I don't think "This Is How We Do It" can fit into any year of the 1980s not even 1987, 1988 or 1989. It sounds '90s and not '80s even with that sample.

I disagree. 1993 is the first year in which '90s style songs overtook '80s style songs.


Was that hardcore rap?

Was that hardcore rap?

Yes, that and grunge, house, etc.

I don't think "This Is How We Do It" can fit into any year of the 1980s not even 1987, 1988 or 1989. It sounds '90s and not '80s even with that sample.


I'm not saying it "fits into the 80s"; it's clearly a 90s song. But the beat, though modernized, still retains that underlying shaker sound that was common in mid-late 80s hip hop. I don't know the proper name for it but Doug E Fresh's "All The Way To Heaven" and Dana Dane's "Cinderfella" are other good examples in addition to "Children's Story."

80s, 90s, now, nobody wants me

80s, 90s, now, nobody wants me


What?  ???

Yes, that and grunge, house, etc.


You had Ini Kamoze, Snow and N.W.A to name a few.

I'm not saying it "fits into the 80s"; it's clearly a 90s song. But the beat, though modernized, still retains that underlying shaker sound that was common in mid-late 80s hip hop. I don't know the proper name for it but Doug E Fresh's "All The Way To Heaven" and Dana Dane's "Cinderfella" are other good examples in addition to "Children's Story."


You mean kind of like the beat "I Feel For You" has?

The 80s lasted into the 90s.
Nirvana started in 1988, but it wasn't until they took off with Nevermind that the 80s started to fade away.

There's a Faith No More video out there (Mike Patton not Chuck Mosley), I think it was 1992.
Mike Patton is all 90s decked out, ready for the new fashion and feel.  But there are still hair metal types in the audience yellin and screamin for him (ladies).

You can see that the color and fashion of the 80s was pretty strong in 1990 with this Rico Suave song
https://youtu.be/fpK_Ext2AeI

Nirvana actually started in 1987.

As infinity said, Eric B. and Rakim and Public Enemy were both a stylistic contrast from a lot of early-mid '80s rap and the fact that rap started to have actual top 40 success in 1987-88 was a sharp contrast to the majority of the decade.

And U2 and R.E.M. both rose to mega-star status in the U.S. in 1987 with alternative releases.


Rap had already gained top 40 success in 1986 with RUN-DMC's "Walk This Way" and none of U2's music in 1987 was alternative.

Does Rapper's Delight just not exist?

Does Rapper's Delight just not exist?


Yes, It exists.

Yes, It exists.


I dunno about that, Howard. It just seems like top 40 hits such as Rapper's Delight and Rapture retroactively don't exist anymore.

Does Rapper's Delight just not exist?


Try asking NewMedalz that, as he seems to think rap had no chart success before 1987, ignoring the fact that there had already been top 40 rap hits before. Starting with "Rapper's Delight" in 1980 and later "The Message" and "Walk This Way" in 1982 and '86.

Try asking NewMedalz that, as he seems to think rap had no chart success before 1987, ignoring the fact that there had been top 40 rap hits before that starting with "Rapper's Delight" in 1980 and later "The Message" and "Walk This Way".


And that's wrong (him, not you). Not only was Rapper's Delight the first top 40 rap hit (in 1980 right as the decade begun), Blondie's Rapture from 1981 is the first rap song ever to hit number 1 on the hot 100. We also can't forget songs like Feel For You and Cool it Now from 1984; not only were both songs  big top 40 successes (#3 and #4, respectively) they also blended hip hop/rap and RnB in ways never done before and continue to be the basis for modern music. Hell, even Run DMC, Walk This Way wasn't their first appearance on the top 40, either. They were featured on Sun City (that compilation of singers for "Artists United Against Apartheid") which hit #38 and came out in '85. Kurtis Blow and The Fat Boys were also featured on that one. And in terms of hip hop's prescence in pop culture? Run DMC played Live AID and Krush Groove was a big movie when it came out in 1985 so it's not like this stuff was under the radar at the time, either.

I dunno about that, Howard. It just seems like top 40 hits such as Rapper's Delight and Rapture retroactively don't exist anymore.


Why not? ???

Why not? ???


I'm just joking. It's because a lot of people are saying hip hop wasn't a big thing until 1987 even though the first top 40 rap hit was in '80.

Try asking NewMedalz that, as he seems to think rap had no chart success before 1987, ignoring the fact that there had already been top 40 rap hits before. Starting with "Rapper's Delight" in 1980 and later "The Message" and "Walk This Way" in 1982 and '86.


Nice try, but Rapper's Delight literally just barely snuck into the U.S. top 40 (#36) and it was an anomaly, more of a novelty at the time. The Message did not hit the Top 40, it peaked at #62, and there wouldn't be another "straight" rap top 40 hit in the States until Run DMC in late 1986. And even their biggest single had to be heavily infused with another, already established popular genre.

Other arguable "rap" hits before the late 1980s were all that way as well (Rapture, Thriller, I Feel For You, Cool it Now, Method of Modern Love).

Maybe do a little more research next time.

If you lived in the UK, hip hop songs had all sorts of serious chart exposure prior to "Walk This Way." Not only was "Rapper's Delight" significantly more successful there than it was in the United States, peaking at #3 instead of #36, there was also stuff like "The Message," "White Lines (Don't Don't Do It)," "The Show," "Step Off," "Buffalo Gals," ""Renegades of Funk," and "(Nothing Serious) Just Buggin'," plus some more minor successes like "The Breaks," "Hey DJ," "Beat Street Breakdown," and "Pump Me Up."

Shut up, you'll never be the man your mother is.


I obviously struck a nerve.

Seriously, it's pretty firmly established that rap's presence on the U.S. pop charts from 1980-86 was virtually nonexistent. You clearly know very little about the music landscape of the time. It's fine to just admit it.

If you lived in the UK, hip hop songs had all sorts of serious chart exposure prior to "Walk This Way." Not only was "Rapper's Delight" significantly more successful there than it was in the United States, peaking at #3 instead of #36, there was also stuff like "The Message," "White Lines (Don't Don't Do It)," "The Show," "Step Off," "Buffalo Gals," ""Renegades of Funk," and "(Nothing Serious) Just Buggin'," plus some more minor successes like "The Breaks," "Hey DJ," "Beat Street Breakdown," and "Pump Me Up."


Yeah, the U.K is always a few years ahead of the U.S. it seems.

Rap was very similar to New Wave in that it had a good lead over there as a truly relevant genre on the Top 40.

I obviously struck a nerve.

Seriously, it's pretty firmly established that rap's presence on the U.S. pop charts from 1980-86 was virtually nonexistent. You clearly know very little about the music landscape of the time. It's fine to just admit it.


Why do you have to be so arrogant?

Why do you have to be so arrogant?


Hey bud, you're the one who called me out over something trivial from several months ago that you apparently took issue with. If you're going to name-blast me like that then be prepared to actually debate and not just lob soft insults.

EDIT: And I see you've deleted your insult.

Hey bud, you're the one who called me out over something from several months ago that you apparently took issue with. If you're going to name-blast me like that then be prepared to actually debate and not just lob soft insults.

EDIT: And I see you've deleted your insult.


Sorry.

I'm just joking. It's because a lot of people are saying hip hop wasn't a big thing until 1987 even though the first top 40 rap hit was in '80.


It was big in the early days but not as big.

I was almost gonna agree with hiphop not really being mainstream until 1987, but then I remembered Doug E Fresh being huge in 1985! "The Show" got to #7 in the UK charts. My brother loved all that. I suppose the whole Breakdance scene was kinda hip hop. I loved Malcolm McLaren too if you consider him hip hop. "Double Dutch" and "Buffalo Gals" takes me back to being a young kid again.

bDkqz5C62SM

FZ4jMSCBswY

Hey bud, you're the one who called me out over something trivial from several months ago that you apparently took issue with. If you're going to name-blast me like that then be prepared to actually debate and not just lob soft insults.

EDIT: And I see you've deleted your insult.


P.S. If you want a debate, then I'll say the same as I did before; rap may have been rising in late 1986/1987 but the majority of rap that was popular at that time (LL Cool J, RUN-DMC, Beastie Boys) was still 80's styled rap, and while some rap in 1987 was beginning to enter 90's territory with Eric B and Rakim, Public Enemy and Ice-T etc. that kind of rap wouldn't have as much success on the billboard hot 100 until later.

You also mentioned alternative music began to rise in 1987. Yes that's true, with songs like "The One I Love" and "Luka". But R.E.M. had already had large underground success following the release of their debut album "Murmur" in 1983.

As for U2, none of their stuff was alternative yet. I agree though, their two hit songs in 1987 "With or Without You" and "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" don't sound typical of 80's music.

P.S. If you want a debate, then I'll say the same as I did before; rap may have been rising in late 1986/1987 but the majority of rap that was popular at that time (LL Cool J, RUN-DMC, Beastie Boys) was still 80's styled rap, and while some rap in 1987 was beginning to enter 90's territory with Eric B and Rakim, Public Enemy and Ice-T etc. that kind of rap wouldn't have as much success on the billboard hot 100 until later.

You also mentioned alternative music began to rise in 1987. Yes that's true, with songs like "The One I Love" and "Luka". But R.E.M. had already had large underground success following the release of their debut album "Murmur" in 1983.

As for U2, none of their stuff was alternative yet. I agree though, their two hit songs in 1987 "With or Without You" and "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" don't sound typical of 80's music.


I never made a distinction there. I consider just about any rap that was big on the Hot 100 at that point from 1986-89 (The Fat Boys, DJ Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince) to be pretty of its time i.e. '80s style. The more cutting edge stuff like N.W.A. did not have that type of commercial viability yet. But hip hop culture's popular growth and rise in prominence definitely distinguishes that latter third of the decade from the rest in my view.

And you'd have to define "alternative" because The Joshua Tree generally gets categorized as an "alternative rock" album.

Regardless of if they're "straight" rap or not, they're still very important peices of hip hop history and do show rap's rising prescence on the charts. And even in the late 80's, rap still only had one or two songs on the top 40 a year and generally they were still heavily infused with other genres anyway (LL Cool J's I Need Love and Beastie Boys' Fight For Your Fight being two huge examples). Wasn't really until 1991 that rap music actually became a proper top 40 stable and began to truly shape popular music.

Joshua Tree is no different from The Unforgettable Fire, either. More post-punk than alternative.

I think that, in the US, 1988 was when rap legit became 'popular'.

I remember in 1991 this kid came to school and blasted NWA. I was like "wtf is this crap" lol.

I think that, in the US, 1988 was when rap legit became 'popular'.


I'd push that back to late 1984 or 1985:
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-07-18/news/we-7428_1_afrika-islam

I find the tagline "coming to Hollywood" as the standard with regards to a trend becoming mainstream, and it shows with the movies Breakin' 2 Electric Boogaloo, Rappin', and Beat Street. I also found that in 1985, McDonald's had its first commercial with rapping that year and promos for the by and large '80s sitcom 227 had rapping in them. That said, unlike rock in the '50s, rap's rise was quite gradual throughout the decade. 1984 even had lots of it from the breakdancing fad. I agree though that when the first gangsta-styled records came out around late 1987/88, that was a sign the decade was definitely starting to transition towards the '90s. And even during the '90s, rap/hip hop wasn't as overwhelmingly saturated like it was during the core '00s. Finally, a lot of the graffiti associated with old school rap is often pigeonholed with the '80s (i.e. subway cars, abandoned warehouses, blighted neighborhoods).

I think that, in the US, 1988 was when rap legit became 'popular'.


1988 and 1989 was pretty much the last few years of "fun rhyming rap".

I agree though that when the first gangsta-styled records came out around late 1987/88, that was a sign the decade was definitely starting to transition towards the '90s.


Well not really, Gangster rap may have started around 1988 but at that time it didn't really have that much success on the mainstream charts. 1989 is really the point where the decade was transitioning into the 90's. That year Reagan was out of office, New Jack Swing and golden age rap had their first true mainstream acceptance, the Disney Renaissance began, Snythpop was starting to decline, and the Berlin Wall fell.

Well not really, Gangster rap may have started around 1988 but at that time it didn't really have that much success on the mainstream charts. 1989 is really the point where the decade was transitioning into the 90's. That year Reagan was out of office, New Jack Swing and golden age rap had their first true mainstream acceptance, the Disney Renaissance began, Snythpop was starting to decline, and the Berlin Wall fell.


Also, the Sega Genesis was released in North America, officially kicking off the bit wars that defined gaming throughout the 1990s.

I'd push that back to late 1984 or 1985:
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-07-18/news/we-7428_1_afrika-islam

I find the tagline "coming to Hollywood" as the standard with regards to a trend becoming mainstream, and it shows with the movies Breakin' 2 Electric Boogaloo, Rappin', and Beat Street. I also found that in 1985, McDonald's had its first commercial with rapping that year and promos for the by and large '80s sitcom 227 had rapping in them. That said, unlike rock in the '50s, rap's rise was quite gradual throughout the decade. 1984 even had lots of it from the breakdancing fad. I agree though that when the first gangsta-styled records came out around late 1987/88, that was a sign the decade was definitely starting to transition towards the '90s. And even during the '90s, rap/hip hop wasn't as overwhelmingly saturated like it was during the core '00s. Finally, a lot of the graffiti associated with old school rap is often pigeonholed with the '80s (i.e. subway cars, abandoned warehouses, blighted neighborhoods).


I agree with all your points! Ford also had rap in their commercials back in '85. Swatch, too, with the Fat Boys rapping for Swatch during the 1985 holiday season. There's also these other big events:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A17qknrZmlL._SY450_.jpg

http://www.defunkd.com/public/upload/images/product_images/big/oscar_31441337998253.JPG

https://themusicplugnyc.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/run-dmc-s04.jpg

https://thecinephiliac.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/krush_groove_i_front.jpg


Well not really, Gangster rap may have started around 1988 but at that time it didn't really have that much success on the mainstream charts. 1989 is really the point where the decade was transitioning into the 90's. That year Reagan was out of office, New Jack Swing and golden age rap had their first true mainstream acceptance, the Disney Renaissance began, Snythpop was starting to decline, and the Berlin Wall fell.


Gangsta rap actually started as early as 1984 with Schoolly D's Gangsta Boogie (funny thing about that song is it sounds closer to 90's G-Funk stylistically than anything else from the time -- seriously! Listen to it and I think you'll be surprised!) but otherwise I agree. 1989 was a very 80's year but the transitions were pretty clearly taking place. 1987 and 1988, on the other hand, are still solidly 80's.


Also, the Sega Genesis was released in North America, officially kicking off the bit wars that defined gaming throughout the 1990s.


I agree with this, too.

1988

1988


I agree.

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Though this is from a cartoon show intro, it's pretty clear that there are some "hints" to the how the 90's might be like (this was from 1989).

Not to mention, 1989 was the first year of Energizer Bunny commercials.

BkWYP95WbbY

Though this is from a cartoon show intro, it's pretty clear that there are some "hints" to the how the 90's might be like (this was from 1989).

Not to mention, 1989 was the first year of Energizer Bunny commercials.



Did they continue in the 90's?

Regardless of if they're "straight" rap or not, they're still very important peices of hip hop history and do show rap's rising prescence on the charts. And even in the late 80's, rap still only had one or two songs on the top 40 a year and generally they were still heavily infused with other genres anyway (LL Cool J's I Need Love and Beastie Boys' Fight For Your Fight being two huge examples). Wasn't really until 1991 that rap music actually became a proper top 40 stable and began to truly shape popular music.

Joshua Tree is no different from The Unforgettable Fire, either. More post-punk than alternative.


By 1989 you certainly had more than one or two top 40 rap hits.

By 1989 you certainly had more than one or two top 40 rap hits.


Yeah, Tone-Loc had two big hits that year, plus there was "Bust a Move," "I'm That Type of Guy," "Baby Don't Forget My Number," "Me So Horny," "Hey Ladies," and a few songs with rap verses like "Friends," "Hangin' Tough," and "On Our Own." Also, rap wasn't a huge deal yet in 1990? Even with MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice at the height of their popularity?

Heck, even way back in 1987, hip hop was prominent enough that this wound up in a Care Bears movie that year:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aOLkmRKcuSQ

Yeah, Tone-Loc had two big hits that year, plus there was "Bust a Move," "I'm That Type of Guy," "Baby Don't Forget My Number," "Me So Horny," "Hey Ladies," and a few songs with rap verses like "Friends," "Hangin' Tough," and "On Our Own." Also, rap wasn't a huge deal yet in 1990? Even with MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice at the height of their popularity?


Yeah, in '90 "Ice Ice Baby" became the first rap song to hit #1.

Yeah, Tone-Loc had two big hits that year, plus there was "Bust a Move," "I'm That Type of Guy," "Baby Don't Forget My Number," "Me So Horny," "Hey Ladies," and a few songs with rap verses like "Friends," "Hangin' Tough," and "On Our Own." Also, rap wasn't a huge deal yet in 1990? Even with MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice at the height of their popularity?

Heck, even way back in 1987, hip hop was prominent enough that this wound up in a Care Bears movie that year:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aOLkmRKcuSQ


Also can't forget Buffalo Stance, one of the bigger hits of that year.

Alright, alright. 1989 is a pretty good year to point out as the beginning of rap's consistent mainstream success but when I said 1991, I was refering to this article that states 1991 as the turning point where rap truly solidifed it's pop status.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/1991-the-most-important-year-in-music/392642/

They even made a chart:
https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2015/05/F3.large/a634fa244.jpg

But I'll say it again, 1989 does also seem like a good starting point.

1986 and early 1987 were the last core year and the most stereo typically 80's so to say. Definitely not early 80s, but still not so much channeling what would be big in the 90s.

But then again, even in 1989 in Europe at least there were some 80s things that couldn't have been released in 1991 or 1992 for example this:
WB10StJpAL0

It just screams 80's. One of the last truly 80's sounding songs and the video is pretty 80s, too (Paula Abdul's Opposites Attract by comparison was like a 80s/90s hybrid song). With daytime soap operas the 80's look on women continued well into the 90's, my grandma used to watch The Bold and The Beautiful and women there still looked vaguely 80's well into the 1992 episodes.

It just screams 80's. One of the last truly 80's sounding songs and the video is pretty 80s, too.


Haha, at the time I used to hate Sonia. But nostalgia's a funny thing. You end up delving back and realising songs weren't so bad. I did like 90s Sonia a bit more... Better The Devil, Boogie Nights, Only Fools.

Christopher are you an old forumer with a new account? Your tagline seems familiar.

No, I'm not. I mean I used to have an account back in the 2000s here and around 2013 but no longer remember the password. :D

1986 being the last core year makes sense, as usually decades peak in the middle whereas the early years are full of many leftovers and later years are starting to show trends transitioning. So for the 80s the peak 80s years have to be 1984-1986. Certainly the hair styles that came to be associated with the decade were full swing by 86.

1987.

But 1985/1986 will always be the absolute peak!  8)  8)  :D