1991-1993: Early 1990s
1994-1997: Mid 1990s
1998-2001: Late 1990s

The core '90s are 1993-1997. 1993 represents the early portion of the decade, 1994-1996 are 100% mid, and 1997 somewhat represents the late '90s. So all three "periods" of the decade are represented in the core five year period, although 1997 has more in common with 1993 than 2001.


Do you really think 1997 is more mid-90s than late 90s?  I thought you placed a lot of weight on all the teen pop bands like the Spice Girls and Hanson that were gigantic throughout the year.  Not to mention, Sean Combs, Master P, and Timbaland were the core producers in hip hop, not Dr. Dre with his then-bombing Aftermath label or the has-been Death Row Records.  Mid-90s-style eurodance was obsolete, while the mid-90s wave of alternative movements, while still relevant, were either beyond their peak or survived all the way into the early 2000s.  The biggest tv shows and video game consoles of the day were completely removed from what they were in the mid-90s.

You see, as time moves forward, we move forward with time.

That doesn't mean entire decades have to be described in terms of single-year poles.

In my opinion, the years 1979 to 1989 were not important years in history like 1990 was.

Wow, this says everything that anybody needs to know about your ridiculous theory.  I guess the Reagan Revolution and fall of the Berlin Wall were nothing but insignificant blips that were merely building up to George H. W. Bush being in his second year in office as President of the United States in 1990.

The cover of the paperback below says more about the winter, spring, and  summer seasons of the year 1990 than anything else does, to me.

http://images.nitrosell.com/product_images/8/1806/DCD427106.jpg

Of course you're going to have "best of the eighties" compilation media at the chronological beginning of the new decade.  Were complete "best of the seventies" books being released at the start of 1978, which also included Woodstock, the Moon Landing, or anything else that had to do with the spirit of '69?  Did it take until January 1, 2011 instead of the turn of 2010 for "best of the 2000s" books, articles, and YouTube videos to arrive?

The earliest seasons of 1990 were the last day and age of:

- The '80s tycoon (pre-recession days of 1990)

http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/collections/1990/images/df1990-417.gif

- The latest Indiana Jones flick being released on VHS

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Awesome.  In 2003, the entire trilogy was released as a DVD set, so I guess we can call that an iconic part of 2000s culture as well:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y9N6Q32TL.jpg

- All things Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles being the best

R541NmyDJYY

1990 was just the height of the Ninja Turtles craze, which began in the late 80s and started to cool off before the core 90s even took off.

- Memorable moonwalk dance references in TV shows and movies

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The moonwalk is like the iconic dance move of the 80s.  Michael Jackson's Moonwalker came out in 1989, not 1990, not to mention Back to the Future Part III was filmed in 1988 (the same time as Part II from 1989).

- A pretty good Summerslam event

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0jRImK9kaKc/maxresdefault.jpg

I don't know much about wrestling, but I'm gonna guess those figures were more established in the 80s.

- MTV having far more music programs over non-music programs

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Same case as from August 1, 1981 to December 31, 1989.

- Groupies and casual music fans really going out of their way to imitate their favorite artist(s)

http://www.inthe80s.com/clothes/images/user-image-1219818910_thumb.jpg

As if all the hair bands and new wave groups weren't already inspiring this all throughout the 80s.

- "Old School" rap 1988 and 1989 were on the radio then]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ca/0d/3f/ca0d3f65a391375205859d23864df86b.jpg

The general public loves to say that 1990 was still the '80s, but "the '70s vibe of the '80s" was officially dead in 1990.

This "70s vibe of the '80s" that you speak of died way back in 1983.  From thereon out, the 80s were just the 80s.

I guess there's still a strong "2000s vibe" to 2016 as well, and of course by 2000s things I mean anything that represents the spirit of '99.

This "70s vibe of the '80s" that you speak of died way back in 1983.  From thereon out, the 80s were just the 80s.

What vibe was that? ???

What vibe was that? ???


Stuff like this still being popular in the early 80s:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2e/5d/b6/2e5db64cbb6586c7f31b9f7d504cfc9d.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru2tsT32pHA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvqyY3muiW8

In addition to this, most of the popular culture that defined early 80s was already moderately popular in the late 70s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIJOO__jVo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=437Ld_rKM2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htgr3pvBr-I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqAPVB4u9Zs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6fSEf6tnG4

I don't know much about wrestling, but I'm gonna guess those figures were more established in the 80s.

Yeah the Hulk Hogan/ Rock n Wrestling era is more associated with the 80s. It lasted from 1984-1992. Ironically the Reagan and H.W. Bush years!

Those aren't 90's things, those are 80's things. Is Ronnie's presidency a 90's thing too? I don't know how 1998 and 1999 are so different to you. They're both years of the late 90's/early 00's Y2K era just like 2000-2003 are.


I used to agree with TheEarly90sGuy back when he used to say that everything that was the 1980s culminated in 1990.  That I agree with.  However, I don't agree that 90s culture is best represented by the early part of the decade.  There was a generational cultural shift in 1992-93 and most of what defines the '90s took place after that.

I used to agree with TheEarly90sGuy back when he used to say that everything that was the 1980s culminated in 1990.  That I agree with.  However, I don't agree that 90s culture is best represented by the early part of the decade.  There was a generational cultural shift in 1992-93 and most of what defines the '90s took place after that.


But then he calls those things '90's things' which makes no sense. And then there's this Bryan Adams "spirit of 90" crap he says, which also doesn't make a lick of sense. Everything that defines the 90's to me would be 1993-1997.

Yeah the Hulk Hogan/ Rock n Wrestling era is more associated with the 80s. It lasted from 1984-1992. Ironically the Reagan and H.W. Bush years!


I'd rather watch that than the PG garbage they put out today. ::)

I'd rather watch that than the PG garbage they put out today. ::)


That's the raddest era of Wrestling, though! Attitude was pretty sweet but those matches with Hulk Hogan and Nikolai Volkoff were some of the best. Nothing beats the combo of Jesse Ventura and Vince McMahon! I used to watch it with my brother and sister all the time as kids in the late 80's/early 90's.

That's the raddest era of Wrestling, though! Attitude was pretty sweet but those matches with Hulk Hogan and Nikolai Volkoff were some of the best. Nothing beats the combo of Jesse Ventura and Vince McMahon! I used to watch it with my brother and sister all the time as kids in the late 80's/early 90's.


Do you remember wrestling in 1995?

Do you remember wrestling in 1995?


Ehh, somewhat. I didn't watch too much wrestling in the mid 90's.

That's the raddest era of Wrestling, though! Attitude was pretty sweet but those matches with Hulk Hogan and Nikolai Volkoff were some of the best. Nothing beats the combo of Jesse Ventura and Vince McMahon! I used to watch it with my brother and sister all the time as kids in the late 80's/early 90's.

Don't forget Bobby the Brain Heenan and the late great Gorilla Monsoon.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/frsports-bucket-0001/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2015/05/08184132/Bobby-Heenan-and-Gorilla-Monsoon-Courtesy-of-WWE.com_.jpg

Don't forget Bobby the Brain Heenan and the late great Gorilla Monsoon.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/frsports-bucket-0001/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2015/05/08184132/Bobby-Heenan-and-Gorilla-Monsoon-Courtesy-of-WWE.com_.jpg


How could I forget! These guys were hilarious! 1984-1992 wrestling is the raddest and baddest, if you ask me. All that was missing is the Hulk Hogan talking soap. ;D ;D ;D

From analyzing everything from this year, i would say it's mostly early 90s. I have listened to some music, played games, watched videos and even seen fashion from that year and it gives off more of early 90s vibe. Yes, Clinton was president; however, people should remember that there was a gradual change from the HW Bush administration at that time. One other thing we should know is that somethings that defined the 90s didn't exist in this year. For example, no Friends, the DKC trilogy, and even the WB network  (which later became the CW).

Here's a song from a video I'm going to list and it definitely gives off an early 90's vibe. Even the animation seems early 90s as well.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EYW7-hNXZlM

Do you really think 1997 is more mid-90s than late 90s?  I thought you placed a lot of weight on all the teen pop bands like the Spice Girls and Hanson that were gigantic throughout the year.  Not to mention, Sean Combs, Master P, and Timbaland were the core producers in hip hop, not Dr. Dre with his then-bombing Aftermath label or the has-been Death Row Records.  Mid-90s-style eurodance was obsolete, while the mid-90s wave of alternative movements, while still relevant, were either beyond their peak or survived all the way into the early 2000s.  The biggest tv shows and video game consoles of the day were completely removed from what they were in the mid-90s.


Yes, 1997 is more mid '90s than late '90s (like 70% mid '90s, 30% late '90s). I only put emphasis on the teen pop music because it clashed so much with the rest of the non-teen pop stuff. Everything that wasn't teen pop that year was exactly like the mid '90s. The Spice Girls and Hanson may have been big, but the trend was incredibly insignificant that year. It could have been seen as a fad at that time. There were so many artists and songs that were so huge that year that are so similar to the mid 1990s that it instantly puts 1997 as the same era. After all, it was the first calendar year of the late '90s. Of course it was going to be very similar to the middle part of the decade. I feel like 1994, even 1993 in some instances, was the first year that 1997 type songs could be popular on the charts. Not the teen pop stuff, but the everything else; "Fly", "One Headlight", "If You Could Only See", "I'll Be", "Honey", "Semi-Charmed Life", "How's It Gonna Be?", "Every Day Is A Winding Road", "A Change Could Do You Good", "All For You", "Go the Distance", "I Shot the Sheriff", "Your Woman", "Bitch", "Naked Eye", "Return of the Mack", "When You're Gone/Free to Decide" the list goes on and on and on.......... Conversely, I can think of numerous 1994 hit songs that would have been just as successful in 1997 ("What's the Frequency, Kenneth?", "Buddy Holly", "Zombie", "Do You Wanna Get Funky?", "Funky Melody", "I Alone", "Vasoline", "Interstate Love Song", "Basket Case", "100% Pure Love", "Flava In Ya Ear", "Juicy", "Tootsee Roll", "I Seen A Man Die", "Nuttin' But Love", "Be Happy", "Creep", "This DJ", "Here Comes the Hotstepper", "I Wanna Be Down", etc.).

You are right about the "core producers in hip-hop thing", but you have to remember that Sean Combs was a very famous person in the mid '90s as well. He produced Mary J. Blige's 1992 What's the 411? album and her 1994 My Life album. Still, his "Puff Daddy and the Family" and Biggie's "Life After Death" albums sound pretty close to mid '90s hip-hop. Master P had one hit in 1997 (his breakthrough was in 1998). Timbaland's stuff was still pretty weird back then, but compared to his aughts stuff this sounds really conventional. Mariah Carey's Butterfly album was much more similar to Daydream than Rainbow. It has a pretty vintage feel to it. It's her last album that feels truly retro. IMO the '90s Alternative rock movement was still going pretty strong that year. U2's Pop album and Third Eye Blind's Third Eye Blind, to name a couple, were pretty comfortably mid '90s in my opinion. Eurodance was not dead that year. You had Real McCoy's "One More Time", No Mercy's "Please Don't Go", Mr. President's "Coco Jamboo", and Aqua's teenybopper "Barbie Girl" and "Candyman" songs. The Aqua songs sound late '90s, but the rest sound mid. The tv shows popular in the mid '90s were still around in 1997. Friends and The X-Files, for example, saw no change in tone compared to the earlier years. Beavis and Butthead were still on the air that year, as with The Real World being on as well. Buffy the Vampire Slayer's first two seasons had a very similar vibe to My So Called Life and The X-Files due to focusing on drama, suspense, and more importantly science fiction; three really huge genres in the mid '90s for both television and film. As a matter of fact, 1992-1998 was the absolute peak of science fiction's popularity in mainstream media for the first time since the 1960's or maybe even the 1950's. I completely agree with you on the video games though.

The fashions were also totally similar. Here:

1994
https://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr06/2013/3/29/11/enhanced-buzz-27887-1364570051-23.jpg
https://thetrendtree.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/rg-skrit.png
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7dEWmt8usP8/maxresdefault.jpg
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/evokeuploads/2015/04/93405677.jpg
Black everything, short skirts and dresses, chunky shoes, high-waisted pants, cropped shirts, plaid, neutral colors (browns, navy, olive green, black, white, beige, burgundy)

1997
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/16/article-2757195-2163C9B400000578-892_634x628.jpg
http://img.csfd.cz/files/images/film/photos/157/935/157935981_c9afb4.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jjGL3dnWlOc/TaSC-D2Rs5I/AAAAAAAAG-Q/J_FCYZrOaL4/s1600/573707754.jpg
http://psimovie.com/images/scream-2/scr-2.jpg
Black everything, short skirts and dresses, chunky shoes, high-waisted pants, cropped shirts, plaid, neutral colors (browns, navy, olive green, black, white, beige, burgundy)....

They are very similar. Pretty much completely the same. 1997 is the same era as 1994, and a world away from 2000. Hell, even 1999 was a different era. Generation X was still very much the dominant demographic that year. This really isn't debatable.

The Spice Girls and Hanson may have been big, but the trend was incredibly insignificant that year. It could have been seen as a fad at that time.

What?  Both Hanson and the Spice Girls had #1 singles that year (during the first half, even), and "Say You'll Be There" (#3 on Hot 100, #2 on Mainstream Top 40), "Where's the Love" (#8 on Mainstream Top 40), "2 Become One" (#4 on Hot 100, #4 on Mainstream Top 40) "I Will Come to You" (#9 on Billboard Hot 100), and "Spice Up Your Life" (#18 on Billboard Hot 100) were also huge hits, a lot more so than anything that sounded like it was inspired by Dr. Dre g-funk or TLC's CrazySexyCool.  They weren't the only teenybopper music artists to score huge, either.  The Backstreet Boys' Quit Playing Games (With My Heart) made it to #2, while "As Long As You Love Me" was also a huge airplay hit.  98 Degrees had "Invisible Man," Robyn had two #7 singles, and Savage Garden had "I Want You," which made it to #4 on the Billboard Hot 100 and topped the Mainstream Top 40 chart in spring.  Less remembered but still popular was She Moves' "Breaking All the Rules," a #16 hit on the Mainstream Top 40 near the end of the year.  No, teen pop was not as huge as it was in 1999 or 2000, but the genre still produced a ton of the biggest songs of 1997.  At the very least, it was just about as popular throughout 1997 as it was in 1998 and 2001.

There were so many artists and songs that were so huge that year that are so similar to the mid 1990s that it instantly puts 1997 as the same era. After all, it was the first calendar year of the late '90s. Of course it was going to be very similar to the middle part of the decade. I feel like 1994, even 1993 in some instances, was the first year that 1997 type songs could be popular on the charts.

I sort of took that into consideration before, but the thing is, so much of these "1993/1994-ish" type of songs could have also been very popular in 1998 and even early 1999, during which nu-metal and rap-rock were not fully established and the radio was still completely dominated by these core 90s-style alternative tracks.  A few examples:  "You Get What You Give," "Father of Mine," "Closing Time," "Special," and "It's All Been Done."  In addition to those, artists like the Goo Goo Dolls, Alanis Morissette, and Sheryl Crow remained popular into the mid-00s and all had big singles in 1998, as well - the Goo Goo Dolls had "Iris" and "Slide," Alanis Morissette had "Uninvited" and "Thank U," and Sheryl Crow had "My Favorite Mistake."

Not the teen pop stuff, but the everything else; "Fly", "One Headlight", "If You Could Only See", "I'll Be", "Honey", "Semi-Charmed Life", "How's It Gonna Be?", "Every Day Is A Winding Road", "A Change Could Do You Good", "All For You", "Go the Distance", "I Shot the Sheriff", "Your Woman", "Bitch", "Naked Eye", "Return of the Mack", "When You're Gone/Free to Decide" the list goes on and on and on.......... Conversely, I can think of numerous 1994 hit songs that would have been just as successful in 1997 ("What's the Frequency, Kenneth?", "Buddy Holly", "Zombie", "Do You Wanna Get Funky?", "Funky Melody", "I Alone", "Vasoline", "Interstate Love Song", "Basket Case", "100% Pure Love", "Flava In Ya Ear", "Juicy", "Tootsee Roll", "I Seen A Man Die", "Nuttin' But Love", "Be Happy", "Creep", "This DJ", "Here Comes the Hotstepper", "I Wanna Be Down", etc.).

I strongly disagree with most of these examples, on both sides.  I'm going to give a basic overview of each song I disagree with to say what I mean:

* "Fly" - While you could compare this to Sublime (whose self-titled album is really on the cusp of the mid and late 90s), Sugar Ray was predominantly a Y2k-era band, and this song is a perfect representation of their mainstream work, which would later include stuff like "Someday" and "When It's Over."

* "One Headlight," "If You Could Only See," "Everyday Is a Winding Road," "A Change Would Do You Good," "All for You," "When You're Gone/Free to Decide," "Bitch" - See my above comment about core 90s alternative surviving into early 1999 (and even beyond that, albeit not as popular).  In fact, with the exception of "Bitch" and "All for You," all of these songs were released on albums from 1996.

* "I'll Be" - This is more on the cusp of mid and late 90s.  I highly doubt this would have been made in 1994/1995 because it's too slickly produced.

* "Semi-Charmed Life," "How's It Gonna Be" - Like Sugar Ray, Third-Eye Blind is strictly a Y2K-era band.  They later had "Never Let You Go" and "Deep Inside of You" in 2000.  The singles from their debut album would not have sounded out-of-place in 1998 or 1999.  Nine Days' Absolutely (Story of a Girl)," released in 2000, sounds a lot like "Semi-Charmed Life."

* "Your Woman" - This is another song with production that's far too slick to fit in with the mid-90s.  Its beat sounds similar to "Say You'll Be There."

Now for the 1994 songs you think would be popular in 1997:

"What's the Frequency Kenneth?," "Buddy Holly,"  "I Alone,""Basket Case" - Guitars this heavy and distorted weren't really popular beyond 1996.  It was mostly the lighter stuff that survived through the end of the cultural 90s.

"Zombie," "Vasoline" - These especially would not have attained success in 1997.  Yes, the Cranberries had a hit at the very start of that year, but again, it was of the lighter style and not an ultra-dark grunge song.  "Vasoline" is prime early-mid-90s grunge, a movement that was dead by the time spring 1997 came.  The closest thing to a 1997 grunge hit is Blur's "Song 2," which Damon Albarn has claimed is a satire of the genre, not an homage.

"Flava in Ya Ear," "Juicy" - By the last third of 1996, Bad Boy productions were getting much shinier and glossier than their gritty mid-90s material.  Even Biggie's Life After Death album isn't this street.

"Tootsee Roll" - Miami bass was pretty much something that was present for all of the 90s, beginning in 1992.  Luke's "Raise the Roof" was popular in 1998, and even the Baha Men's "Who Let the Dogs Out" fits along perfectly with songs by groups like Tag Team.

"I Seen a Man Die," "This DJ" - Gangsta rap like this really wasn't very popular in 1997.  Death Row Records was in shambles, Dr. Dre Presents the Aftermath flopped big time, and Snoop Doggy Dogg's Tha Doggfather was met with lukewarm reception.  Sure, you did have "I Shot the Sheriff" and "C U When U Get There," but those were exceptions to the hip hop scene, which was otherwise dominated by the glam era of Bad Boy Records and eventually No Limit.

"Be Happy," "Creep," "I Wanna Be Down" - This type of pop r&b went out of style by the time 1997 arrived.  Stuff like "Don't Leave Me," "Don't Wanna Be a Player," "Steelo," "Can We," and "I Can Love You" were setting the new standard for the genre coming into the Y2K era.  As soon as "If Your Girl Only Knew" and "No Diggity" hit airwaves in late 1996, urban music started to become all about hard, trebly, syncopated rhythms instead of silky, bassy funk.

"Here Comes the Hotstepper" - The major 90s pop-reggae movement died in late 1996, after "Groovin'" in the UK and "That Girl" in the United States.  Shaggy released a new album in 1997, but it tanked badly, and he wouldn't achieve success again until he adapted to Y2K-era trends.

You are right about the "core producers in hip-hop thing", but you have to remember that Sean Combs was a very famous person in the mid '90s as well. He produced Mary J. Blige's 1992 What's the 411? album and her 1994 My Life album. Still, his "Puff Daddy and the Family" and Biggie's "Life After Death" albums sound pretty close to mid '90s hip-hop.

I already commented that mid-90s Bad Boy productions sound nothing like late 90s Bad Boy productions, not to mention Sean Combs himself was never a main performing artist until "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down."  The newer, glammier style of production began with the remix of 112's "Only You" that features Mase in his debut and became fully established throughout the late 90s.

Master P had one hit in 1997 (his breakthrough was in 1998).

"I Miss My Homies" may have only reached #27, but singles aren't always everything.  Ghetto D went to #1 on the Billboard 200 right on its release in September 1997.

Timbaland's stuff was still pretty weird back then, but compared to his aughts stuff this sounds really conventional.

I don't understand what you mean here.  His pre-Loose style was already fully developed by his mainstream breakthrough in 1996.  Songs like "If Your Girl Only Knew" and "Pony" sounded incredibly ahead of their time when they came out.

Mariah Carey's Butterfly album was much more similar to Daydream than Rainbow. It has a pretty vintage feel to it. It's her last album that feels truly retro.

It's definitely core 90s, but I find it too slickly produced to fit directly alongside Daydream.  "My All" was a #1 hit in 1998.

IMO the '90s Alternative rock movement was still going pretty strong that year. U2's Pop album and Third Eye Blind's Third Eye Blind, to name a couple, were pretty comfortably mid '90s in my opinion.

"Discotheque" is a typical slice of breakbeat techno that was popular in the late 90s.  Third Eye Blind, as I already noted, was strictly Y2K-era and in no way mid-90s.

Eurodance was not dead that year. You had Real McCoy's "One More Time", No Mercy's "Please Don't Go", Mr. President's "Coco Jamboo", and Aqua's teenybopper "Barbie Girl" and "Candyman" songs. The Aqua songs sound late '90s, but the rest sound mid.

"Please Don't Go" was only popular at the very beginning of the year, "Coco Jamboo" sounds more transitional that strictly mid, and the bubble gummy Aqua was the only eurodance act that was popular during the later months of the year.  None of these songs, besides Barbie Girl, were nearly as popular as stuff like "Be My Lover," "Another Night," and Nicki French's cover of "Total Eclipse of the Heart" were in the true mid-90s.

The tv shows popular in the mid '90s were still around in 1997. Friends and The X-Files, for example, saw no change in tone compared to the earlier years. Beavis and Butthead were still on the air that year, as with The Real World being on as well.

Did Friends and The X-Files transform dramatically in 1998?  Beavis & Butthead may have aired its last season in 1997, but King of the Hill also premiered at the beginning of the year, as did Daria and South Park later on.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer's first two seasons had a very similar vibe to My So Called Life and The X-Files due to focusing on drama, suspense, and more importantly science fiction; three really huge genres in the mid '90s for both television and film.

These things didn't disappear as the Y2K era proceeded.  Some of the biggest movies of that period included The Sixth Sense, The Matrix, and The Phantom Menace.  Deep Space Nine was still on television until mid-1999, and Babylon 5 was still airing new episodes through November 1998.

The fashions were also totally similar. Here:

1994
https://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr06/2013/3/29/11/enhanced-buzz-27887-1364570051-23.jpg
https://thetrendtree.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/rg-skrit.png
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7dEWmt8usP8/maxresdefault.jpg
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/evokeuploads/2015/04/93405677.jpg
Black everything, short skirts and dresses, chunky shoes, high-waisted pants, cropped shirts, plaid, neutral colors (browns, navy, olive green, black, white, beige, burgundy)

1997
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/16/article-2757195-2163C9B400000578-892_634x628.jpg
http://img.csfd.cz/files/images/film/photos/157/935/157935981_c9afb4.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jjGL3dnWlOc/TaSC-D2Rs5I/AAAAAAAAG-Q/J_FCYZrOaL4/s1600/573707754.jpg
http://psimovie.com/images/scream-2/scr-2.jpg
Black everything, short skirts and dresses, chunky shoes, high-waisted pants, cropped shirts, plaid, neutral colors (browns, navy, olive green, black, white, beige, burgundy)....

I don't think the fashions look that similar, to be honest.  The 1994 outfits are much baggier and patchier than the 1997 ones, which mostly comprise of short-sleeved collared shirts on the guys and crop tops for the women.  The men's hair is clearly shorter on average in the 1997 photos, as well.  The stuff from 1997 would not have looked outdated in 1998 or even 1999.

They are very similar. Pretty much completely the same. 1997 is the same era as 1994, and a world away from 2000. Hell, even 1999 was a different era. Generation X was still very much the dominant demographic that year. This really isn't debatable.


I'm honestly surprised by the confidence with which you say it "isn't debatable" that 1997 is mid-90s.  For one thing, it's chronologically late 90s, and it's not as different from 1998 or most of 1999 as you seem to imply.  The grungy, rebellious spirit of Generation X was out of breath by 1997, and flashy, vibrant, in-your-face, occasionally ironic, and pre-packaged media had taken over.  I certainly don't think the Spice Girls, Hanson, Mase, Savage Garden, the Backstreet Boys, or the like were targeting Generation X, and they were all some of the biggest music figures of the era.  South Park, King of the Hill, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and 7th Heaven were all huge millennial shows that were popular in 1997, as well.  Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network both went through a lot of changes.  Of the classic Nicktoons, only Aahhh!!! Real Monsters and Rugrats were still airing new episodes, and Hey Arnold, Kablam!, Kenan & Kel, and The Angry Beavers represented the channel's core programs.  Cartoon Network now had Johnny Bravo, Cow & Chicken, and I Am Weasel, in addition to Dexter's Laboratory's second season.  When you factor all of these general things 1997, in combination with the 100% late 90s video gaming industry and advent of the Dot Com Boom, I think 1997 clearly fits best with the late 90s, as it just has too many jarring differences from the vast bulk of the mid-90s to be of the same era.  While I can definitely understand why somebody would say the first half of the year was still mid-90s (January was still about three quarters mid-90s, while February and the spring months were about 60% late 90s, 40% mid-90s), the subsequent summer, fall, and winter were all undoubtedly late 90s, with either only insignificant scraps of the mid-90s or things that would survive well beyond that year carrying over from the mid-90s.

Agreed Arctic! 1997 was core 90s like 1994 was... but it was more late 90s though. 1997 did NOT have that Y2K vibe like 1999 did, but it's still late 90s year.
I like to separate late 1996-mid 1998 and late 1998-1999 as two mini eras.
late 1996-mid 1998: late 90s
late 1998-2001: ''Millennium era'' period

And to Infinty regarding the shows Beavis and Butthead was still more well known than South Park and King of the Hill, they came at THE VERY end of the year. That was a piss poor example. Nick was still considered to be in it's golden age in 1997. Animaniacas and Pinky and the Brain were also still on the air. Toonami HAD JUST DEBUTED, their popularity wouldn't come till later. DBZ was still in syndication. Pokemon hadn't come to America yet. Saturn was still SEGA's console (until Stolar said it wasn't their future! >:( ) X-MEN the animated series, and Spider-man were still on air. Power Rangers although on the decline was still the kids fad for the most part.

Also in sports, Michael Jordan was still THE face of NBA basketball not Kobe and Shaq who are the faces of the Y2K era Basketball, Jordan represented 90s culture regarding sports. Brett Favre was still in his prime, MLB hadn't had the home run chase between McGwire and Sosa which revived baseball.

Also, You don't think Mase and Hanson were Gen x products? ???  I'd say they were X/Y cusp products.

In 1997, the year saw new brand things had debuting and coming out, but in 1998 they reached their primes. So yeah 1997 was indeed a VERY transitional year.

Agreed Arctic! 1997 was core 90s like 1994 was... but it was more late 90s though. 1997 did NOT have that Y2K vibe like 1999 did, but it's still late 90s year.
I like to separate late 1996-mid 1998 and late 1998-1999 as two mini eras.
late 1996-mid 1998: late 90s
late 1998-2001: ''Millennium era'' period

This is actually more how I feel about the late 90s, though I would frame the "late 90s" part as spring 1997 through winter 1998/1999, instead.  The main thing I was trying to get at was that 1997 as a whole was NOT a mid-90s year due to too many cultural shifts occurring during the 1996/1997 school year.

And to Infinty regarding the shows Beavis and Butthead was still more well known than South Park and King of the Hill, they came at THE VERY end of the year. That was a piss poor example.

Uh, no, King of the Hill premiered in January 1997, and South Park first aired in August.  They were both established programs for a good portion of the year.

Nick was still considered to be in it's golden age in 1997.

Its current shows were clearly Klasky Csupo-era though.  Ren & Stimpy and old Doug had been over for years, and Rocko's Modern Life ended the previous year.  There were a lot of newer, late 90s shows already on the channel even early in 1997.

Animaniacas and Pinky and the Brain were also still on the air.

Both of those shows were still on television throughout 1998 as well, and there were still reruns of Pinky and the Brain well after that.

Toonami HAD JUST DEBUTED, their popularity wouldn't come till later. DBZ was still in syndication.

Toonami is just as much of an early 2000s thing as a late 90s thing, if not even more so.  DBZ's peak in popularity was 2001.

Pokemon hadn't come to America yet.

Pokémon strictly represents the second half of the Y2K era, lasting for all of 2000 and much of 2001 as well.  It took until spring 1999 to really blow up in the United States.  Its American absence in 1997 doesn't really make that year un-late 90s.

Saturn was still SEGA's console (until Stolar said it wasn't their future! >:( )

The Saturn was a commercial flop and irrelevant compared to the Nintendo 64 and PlayStation.

X-MEN the animated series, and Spider-man were still on air. Power Rangers although on the decline was still the kids fad for the most part.

Past their heydays.

Also, You don't think Mase and Hanson were Gen x products? ???  I'd say they were X/Y cusp products.

Mase was all about money, money, money, just like any typical 2000s hip hop artist, while Hanson were a group of pretty faces with the same level of appeal as the Y2K era boybands and 2000s pop punk and emo groups.  Both of these acts were pretty alienating to those immersed in Gen-X culture.

In 1997, the year saw new brand things had debuting and coming out, but in 1998 they reached their primes. So yeah 1997 was indeed a VERY transitional year.

The first two thirds were definitely transitional, but that same transition had already begun with the last third of 1996, so late 90s culture had plenty of time to be established throughout most of 1997.

Agreed Arctic! 1997 was core 90s like 1994 was... but it was more late 90s though. 1997 did NOT have that Y2K vibe like 1999 did, but it's still late 90s year.
I like to separate late 1996-mid 1998 and late 1998-1999 as two mini eras.
late 1996-mid 1998: late 90s
late 1998-2001: ''Millennium era'' period

And to Infinty regarding the shows Beavis and Butthead was still more well known than South Park and King of the Hill, they came at THE VERY end of the year. That was a piss poor example. Nick was still considered to be in it's golden age in 1997. Animaniacas and Pinky and the Brain were also still on the air. Toonami HAD JUST DEBUTED, their popularity wouldn't come till later. DBZ was still in syndication. Pokemon hadn't come to America yet. Saturn was still SEGA's console (until Stolar said it wasn't their future! >:( ) X-MEN the animated series, and Spider-man were still on air. Power Rangers although on the decline was still the kids fad for the most part.

Also in sports, Michael Jordan was still THE face of NBA basketball not Kobe and Shaq who are the faces of the Y2K era Basketball, Jordan represented 90s culture regarding sports. Brett Favre was still in his prime, MLB hadn't had the home run chase between McGwire and Sosa which revived baseball.

Also, You don't think Mase and Hanson were Gen x products? ???  I'd say they were X/Y cusp products.

In 1997, the year saw new brand things had debuting and coming out, but in 1998 they reached their primes. So yeah 1997 was indeed a VERY transitional year.


Great points. You could say that late 1996-mid 1998 was a full transitional period. The full transition from mid 90's culture to late 90's culture. Although, I still think that the 1997-98 school year was the first time late 90's culture was more dominant than mid 90's, despite there still being tons of mid 90's influences leftover like you stated. I agree with your opinion on Toonami not peaking until much later on, it wasn't really big during the Moltar era from 1997-98 when there was barely any anime on there yet, it was mostly reruns of action shows from the 80's then. It wasn't until DBZ and Sailor Moon joined Toonami around Fall 1998? when the block really got popular. I always say that 1999-2002 was the peak of CN's golden age. Michael Jordan could be associated with early & mid 90's culture, but he's pretty much the quintessential 90's basketball player, while Kobe and Shaq are Y2K although Kobe Bryant will be looked back at the top NBA player of the 2000's decade. The entire year of 1999 feels like the quintessential, ultimate year of late 90's culture to me.

This is actually more how I feel about the late 90s, though I would frame the "late 90s" part as spring 1997 through winter 1998/1999, instead.  The main thing I was trying to get at was that 1997 as a whole was NOT a mid-90s year due to too many cultural shifts occurring during the 1996/1997 school year.

Uh, no, King of the Hill premiered in January 1997, and South Park first aired in August.  They were both established programs for a good portion of the year.

Its current shows were clearly Klasky Csupo-era though.  Ren & Stimpy and old Doug had been over for years, and Rocko's Modern Life ended the previous year.  There were a lot of newer, late 90s shows already on the channel even early in 1997.

Both of those shows were still on television throughout 1998 as well, and there were still reruns of Pinky and the Brain well after that.

Toonami is just as much of an early 2000s thing as a late 90s thing, if not even more so.  DBZ's peak in popularity was 2001.

Pokémon strictly represents the second half of the Y2K era, lasting for all of 2000 and much of 2001 as well.  It took until spring 1999 to really blow up in the United States.  Its American absence in 1997 doesn't really make that year un-late 90s.

The Saturn was a commercial flop and irrelevant compared to the Nintendo 64 and PlayStation.

Past their heydays.

Mase was all about money, money, money, just like any typical 2000s hip hop artist, while Hanson were a group of pretty faces with the same level of appeal as the Y2K era boybands and 2000s pop punk and emo groups.  Both of these acts were pretty alienating to those immersed in Gen-X culture.

The first two thirds were definitely transitional, but that same transition had already begun with the last third of 1996, so late 90s culture had plenty of time to be established throughout most of 1997.

I apologize for getting the King of the Hill premiere wrong. But Bevis and Butthead were STILL more well known than South Park was in 97.


Animaniacs and Pinky and the Brain ARE NOT Y2K era cartoons they ran through much of the heart of the 90s.


Toonami wasn't the true TOONAMI until TOM got there.


Also Seinfeld was still on the air and The Simpsons was still in it's golden age in 97. Both core 90s things and NOT Y2K things.

I apologize for getting the King of the Hill premiere wrong. But Bevis and Butthead were STILL more well known than South Park was in 97.

South Park was a pretty big deal as soon as it premiered, though.  Its irreverent, shocking, and no-holds-barred humor struck a huge chord with audiences then, and word quickly spread of it beginning with college campuses.  It only took two years for a theatrical film to come out (Beavis & Butthead took three).  But regardless, King of the Hill and Daria were also very popular in 1997, so it's not like 1997 was completely just a Beavis & Butthead year like 1993-1996 were.

Animaniacs and Pinky and the Brain ARE NOT Y2K era cartoons they ran through much of the heart of the 90s.

I don't mean to imply they're Y2K cartoons, I just see them as sort of general 90s things, similar to The Simpsons and Seinfeld, since Animaniacs premiered back in 1993, while Pinky & the Brain was just an extension of that same show, and both were still airing new episodes towards the end of the decade.  Their peaks were definitely the mid-90s, though.

Also Seinfeld was still on the air and The Simpsons was still in it's golden age in 97. Both core 90s things and NOT Y2K things.

Well, a lot of people believe The Simpsons' golden age ended in 1997 with the jumping the shark moment of The Principal and the Pauper, as well as Mike Scully becoming the new showrunner.  Even most of season 8 wasn't quite up to par with the show's best.  Both shows, like I said, are just classic 90s things, so them still being relevant definitely contributes to 1997 being a classic 90s year, but not necessarily a mid-90s one.

You have to keep in mind, too, that I'm not trying to compare 1997 to the early 2000s, because the Y2K era is not really synonymous with the early 2000s.  It's just that the second half of the Y2K era is an extremely identifiable sub-era that bridged the late 90s with the early 2000s.  I think there was actually a pretty big cultural shift during the 1998-1999 school year, which essentially ushered in the peak of "Y2K" culture, which is more associated with the 90s but clearly isn't classic 90s anymore because it's much more modern and a lot of the core 90s influences that remained put in 1997-spring 1999 were finally declining.

Ehh, somewhat. I didn't watch too much wrestling in the mid 90's.


It was called "The Cartoon Era" or "The New Generation" and Vince was so desperate, he brought in all these characters and thought they would get over with guys such as T.L. Hopper, Duke The Dumpster, The Goon, Bastion Booger, Mantaur and The Sultan.

Don't forget Bobby the Brain Heenan and the late great Gorilla Monsoon.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/frsports-bucket-0001/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2015/05/08184132/Bobby-Heenan-and-Gorilla-Monsoon-Courtesy-of-WWE.com_.jpg


So you remember Wrestling Challenge?

So you remember Wrestling Challenge?

I was still real little when it was still on, so I saw it on WWE on Demand 24/7 back in the day!

I was still real little when it was still on, so I saw it on WWE on Demand 24/7 back in the day!


That was when wrestling was an hour.

That was when wrestling was an hour.


Those were some sweet times. When Hogan was the king.

What?  Both Hanson and the Spice Girls had #1 singles that year (during the first half, even), and "Say You'll Be There" (#3 on Hot 100, #2 on Mainstream Top 40), "Where's the Love" (#8 on Mainstream Top 40), "2 Become One" (#4 on Hot 100, #4 on Mainstream Top 40) "I Will Come to You" (#9 on Billboard Hot 100), and "Spice Up Your Life" (#18 on Billboard Hot 100) were also huge hits, a lot more so than anything that sounded like it was inspired by Dr. Dre g-funk or TLC's CrazySexyCool.  They weren't the only teenybopper music artists to score huge, either.  The Backstreet Boys' Quit Playing Games (With My Heart) made it to #2, while "As Long As You Love Me" was also a huge airplay hit.  98 Degrees had "Invisible Man," Robyn had two #7 singles, and Savage Garden had "I Want You," which made it to #4 on the Billboard Hot 100 and topped the Mainstream Top 40 chart in spring.  Less remembered but still popular was She Moves' "Breaking All the Rules," a #16 hit on the Mainstream Top 40 near the end of the year.  No, teen pop was not as huge as it was in 1999 or 2000, but the genre still produced a ton of the biggest songs of 1997.  At the very least, it was just about as popular throughout 1997 as it was in 1998 and 2001.


Here is the Billboard Hot 100 Year End list for 1997: http://longboredsurfer.com/charts/1997. In it, there are only 10 teen pop songs ("Wannabe", "Quit Playing Games With My Heart", "MMMBop", "I Want You", "Say You'll Be There", "Do You Know What It Takes", "2 Become 1", "Invisible Man", "Barbie Girl", and "Let It Go"). They clash so strongly with the rest of the songs that you can see there is a culture clash, as well as a generational one (X vs Millennial). For instance, "I Want You" is sandwiched in between "The Freshman" and "No Diggity". "Barbie Girl" is sandwiched in between "Twisted" and "When You're Gone/Free to Decide". Also, "Invisible Man" is sandwiched in between "I'm Still In Love With You" and "Not Tonight". Compare any of those teen pop songs to others such as "Go the Distance", "No Time", "Naked Eye", "I Like It", "Smile", "Change the World", "Sunny Came Home", "If It Makes You Happy", those two The Cranberries' songs, or "Bitch" and the differences are really jarring!  :o  The fact that several songs with such opposing mindsets and styles that year really make this culture clash obvious.


I sort of took that into consideration before, but the thing is, so much of these "1993/1994-ish" type of songs could have also been very popular in 1998 and even early 1999, during which nu-metal and rap-rock were not fully established and the radio was still completely dominated by these core 90s-style alternative tracks.  A few examples:  "You Get What You Give," "Father of Mine," "Closing Time," "Special," and "It's All Been Done."  In addition to those, artists like the Goo Goo Dolls, Alanis Morissette, and Sheryl Crow remained popular into the mid-00s and all had big singles in 1998, as well - the Goo Goo Dolls had "Iris" and "Slide," Alanis Morissette had "Uninvited" and "Thank U," and Sheryl Crow had "My Favorite Mistake."

"Discotheque" is a typical slice of breakbeat techno that was popular in the late 90s.  Third Eye Blind, as I already noted, was strictly Y2K-era and in no way mid-90s.


To me, the three sub eras (early, mid, and late) of the '90s are much more fluid than people let on (late '90s songs being popular in the early '90s, vice versa, etc.). We put a lot of emphasis on them being different, but the more I look into it, the more I see that it's not so simple. They are different on the surface, but they have the same "heart and soul" if you get what I mean. I get this vibe from 1991-1998.

With your above statement and mine combined, a really good example would be U2's Achtung Baby. When I first heard it, I was really surprised that it was from 1991 (this was when I was still ignorant about '90s culture). It didn't sound '80s at all! But having heard pretty much all popular tunes from the entire decade, I think this album had an enormous impact. I think the album felt current as far as 1998! If you were to release "Mysterious Ways" in 1998 instead of 1991, it would fit perfectly well with the other songs. I think U2's three '90s albums (1991's Achtung Baby, 1993's Zooropa, 1997's Pop) are an " album series" which explore the same genres of alternative rock, techno, alternative dance, and acoustic rock, only in three forms. Innovation for Achtung, Experimental for Zooropa, and (as the name implies) Pop for Pop. '90s U2 had an enormous influence on 1990's popular music that is just as big as Nirvana, but is ignored.

It is this reason why I see 1991-1998 as largely the same attitude/vibe/mindset/zeitgeist to it. Achtung Baby and Nevermind are only a couple examples of musical pieces that could have been, and probably were, popular and contemporary years after they were released in 1991.


"Be Happy," "Creep," "I Wanna Be Down" - This type of pop r&b went out of style by the time 1997 arrived.  Stuff like "Don't Leave Me," "Don't Wanna Be a Player," "Steelo," "Can We," and "I Can Love You" were setting the new standard for the genre coming into the Y2K era.  As soon as "If Your Girl Only Knew" and "No Diggity" hit airwaves in late 1996, urban music started to become all about hard, trebly, syncopated rhythms instead of silky, bassy funk.


We will have to agree to disagree with this one. While I agree that most of those songs that you mentioned were setting a new standard, I would leave "Steelo" and "I Can Love You" out of the question.  When I first heard "Steelo", I thought it was an early '90s song. It's so hardcore and intense - orchestra, prominent bass, powerful drums, steady tempo, and a funky piano - that was hip-hop soul. I can easily imagine someone like 2Pac or Biggie rapping over the whole song and the producer just sampling the chorus. It screams core '90s and Generation X at the top of its lungs from the summit of K2. That song fits better with the music of 1992 than the late '90s. Compare it to Mariah Carey's "Heartbreaker" or 702's own future hit "Where My Girls At" and they sound incredibly more modern than Steelo. To me, "I Can Love You" doesn't sound too different from Faith Evan's "You Used to Love Me" or better yet Deborah Cox's "Sentimental" -- it just doesn't innovate or stray from typical mid '90s R&B songs.

Honestly, I don't know any song that sounds like "Don't Leave Me". While progressive in its production, I don't think it started any new trends. It was just a unique song in my view. "Don't Wanna Be a Player" on the other hand definitely sounds like the catalyst for future R&B slow jams with its cowbells seemingly replacing snares and the harps replacing pianos.


Did Friends and The X-Files transform dramatically in 1998?  Beavis & Butthead may have aired its last season in 1997, but King of the Hill also premiered at the beginning of the year, as did Daria and South Park later on.


No, they didn't change vibes in 1998. I guess I read your comment wrong when you said "The biggest tv shows and video game consoles of the day were completely removed from what they were in the mid-90s." I was saying that the 1997 seasons of Friends and The X-Files didn't see any change in tone, but I didn't say what happened afterwards. Both of those shows didn't really start to shift in tone until the early 2000's, when Monica got engaged to Chandler and Dana got together with Fox. You are right about the other shows.


I don't think the fashions look that similar, to be honest.  The 1994 outfits are much baggier and patchier than the 1997 ones, which mostly comprise of short-sleeved collared shirts on the guys and crop tops for the women.  The men's hair is clearly shorter on average in the 1997 photos, as well.  The stuff from 1997 would not have looked outdated in 1998 or even 1999.


I will admit that those pictures weren't the best representations of how similar the fashions were. They were just the easiest to find. I do think you have to give some credit to the first two pictures on the 1994 and 1997 ones though. I would try harder and put more effort into looking up pictures and videos, but it's too late right now.


I'm honestly surprised by the confidence with which you say it "isn't debatable" that 1997 is mid-90s.  For one thing, it's chronologically late 90s, and it's not as different from 1998 or most of 1999 as you seem to imply.  The grungy, rebellious spirit of Generation X was out of breath by 1997, and flashy, vibrant, in-your-face, occasionally ironic, and pre-packaged media had taken over.  I certainly don't think the Spice Girls, Hanson, Mase, Savage Garden, the Backstreet Boys, or the like were targeting Generation X, and they were all some of the biggest music figures of the era.  South Park, King of the Hill, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and 7th Heaven were all huge millennial shows that were popular in 1997, as well.  Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network both went through a lot of changes.  Of the classic Nicktoons, only Aahhh!!! Real Monsters and Rugrats were still airing new episodes, and Hey Arnold, Kablam!, Kenan & Kel, and The Angry Beavers represented the channel's core programs.  Cartoon Network now had Johnny Bravo, Cow & Chicken, and I Am Weasel, in addition to Dexter's Laboratory's second season.  When you factor all of these general things 1997, in combination with the 100% late 90s video gaming industry and advent of the Dot Com Boom, I think 1997 clearly fits best with the late 90s, as it just has too many jarring differences from the vast bulk of the mid-90s to be of the same era.  While I can definitely understand why somebody would say the first half of the year was still mid-90s (January was still about three quarters mid-90s, while February and the spring months were about 60% late 90s, 40% mid-90s), the subsequent summer, fall, and winter were all undoubtedly late 90s, with either only insignificant scraps of the mid-90s or things that would survive well beyond that year carrying over from the mid-90s.


I know that the teen pop was aimed at Millennials, I'm talking about the non teen pop stuff. The fact that "Candle in the Wind", "Un-Break My Heart", "I Believe I Can Fly", "I'll Be Missing You", and "Don't Let Go (Love)" were the biggest singles of 1997 say that Generation X was still "in power" that year. If it wasn't those ten teen pop songs that I had mentioned, it was usually mid '90s-sounding songs. I honestly do think that Mase was aimed primarily at Generation X, as his style of hip-hop is still very old school. It was east coast style (a gen x trend) and featured heavy samples of old songs. Hip hop has also always been about materialism and status. Many '80s and early and mid '90s hip hop songs had that. Millennial hip hop artists and music actually stopped the sampling, and styles were more southern instead. The "hip-hop for Millennials" is harsher and less melodic, while Generation X hip-hop was more musical and simplistic, even acoustic at times.

Other than that, I agree with the cartoons and such, and the rebellious vibe of the mid '90s being dead by 1997 is debatable (I think it was still relevant then). Regardless, I still think 1997 is way more like 1994 than it is like 2000 or even 1999. It was a period of change and transition.

Here is the Billboard Hot 100 Year End list for 1997: http://longboredsurfer.com/charts/1997. In it, there are only 10 teen pop songs ("Wannabe", "Quit Playing Games With My Heart", "MMMBop", "I Want You", "Say You'll Be There", "Do You Know What It Takes", "2 Become 1", "Invisible Man", "Barbie Girl", and "Let It Go"). They clash so strongly with the rest of the songs that you can see there is a culture clash, as well as a generational one (X vs Millennial). For instance, "I Want You" is sandwiched in between "The Freshman" and "No Diggity". "Barbie Girl" is sandwiched in between "Twisted" and "When You're Gone/Free to Decide". Also, "Invisible Man" is sandwiched in between "I'm Still In Love With You" and "Not Tonight". Compare any of those teen pop songs to others such as "Go the Distance", "No Time", "Naked Eye", "I Like It", "Smile", "Change the World", "Sunny Came Home", "If It Makes You Happy", those two The Cranberries' songs, or "Bitch" and the differences are really jarring!  :o  The fact that several songs with such opposing mindsets and styles that year really make this culture clash obvious.

Once again, you're forgetting that adult ballads and alternative rock remained popular well beyond just 1997.  "Sunny Came Home," for example, sounds a ton like Ashlee Simpson's "Pieces of Me" from 2004.  Either way, of course the teen pop was going to clash with the rock.  It's not like all alternative rock suddenly sounded like Hanson in 1998-2001, either.  Also, since when is "No Diggity" a mid-90s-style track?

To me, the three sub eras (early, mid, and late) of the '90s are much more fluid than people let on (late '90s songs being popular in the early '90s, vice versa, etc.). We put a lot of emphasis on them being different, but the more I look into it, the more I see that it's not so simple. They are different on the surface, but they have the same "heart and soul" if you get what I mean. I get this vibe from 1991-1998.

There are definitely certain underlying similarities across the board.  In fact, certain types of music were popular during all three sub-eras.  New-jack swing had some presence in pop pretty much the whole decade, and the type of classic 90s alternative you've been describing as mid-90s was actually already huge in the early 90s, beginning in late 1992 with songs like "All I Want," "Constant Craving," and "Always the Last to Know." before proceeding with megahits such as "Two Princes" and "Runaway Train;" like I said, it was still relevant through about the mid-2000s.

With your above statement and mine combined, a really good example would be U2's Achtung Baby. When I first heard it, I was really surprised that it was from 1991 (this was when I was still ignorant about '90s culture). It didn't sound '80s at all! But having heard pretty much all popular tunes from the entire decade, I think this album had an enormous impact. I think the album felt current as far as 1998! If you were to release "Mysterious Ways" in 1998 instead of 1991, it would fit perfectly well with the other songs. I think U2's three '90s albums (1991's Achtung Baby, 1993's Zooropa, 1997's Pop) are an " album series" which explore the same genres of alternative rock, techno, alternative dance, and acoustic rock, only in three forms. Innovation for Achtung, Experimental for Zooropa, and (as the name implies) Pop for Pop. '90s U2 had an enormous influence on 1990's popular music that is just as big as Nirvana, but is ignored.

Indeed, U2 were a pretty interesting group throughout the 90s.  They were going through an identity crisis, trying to reinvent the wheel constantly in order to remain as cutting edge as they were in 1987.  Some of the results were surprisingly effective, like Achtung Baby, while others were a little cheesy.

It is this reason why I see 1991-1998 as largely the same attitude/vibe/mindset/zeitgeist to it. Achtung Baby and Nevermind are only a couple examples of musical pieces that could have been, and probably were, popular and contemporary years after they were released in 1991.

You're definitely on to something here.  As much as the early, mid, and late 90s all have such identifiable unique personalities, they're all still 90s periods at heart, so there's certainly some overlap between all of them.

We will have to agree to disagree with this one. While I agree that most of those songs that you mentioned were setting a new standard, I would leave "Steelo" and "I Can Love You" out of the question.  When I first heard "Steelo", I thought it was an early '90s song. It's so hardcore and intense - orchestra, prominent bass, powerful drums, steady tempo, and a funky piano - that was hip-hop soul. I can easily imagine someone like 2Pac or Biggie rapping over the whole song and the producer just sampling the chorus. It screams core '90s and Generation X at the top of its lungs from the summit of K2. That song fits better with the music of 1992 than the late '90s. Compare it to Mariah Carey's "Heartbreaker" or 702's own future hit "Where My Girls At" and they sound incredibly more modern than Steelo.

I don't think "Steelo" would have been popular beyond 1998, but it was still very different from mid-90s pop urban.  Its beat is a lot more in-your-face than something like "Creep" or "I Wanna Be Down," which make me want to kick off my socks and lounge on my sofa.  I especially don't understand how the track sounds early 90s, though.  Had it been made back then, it would have more of a new-jack swing rhythm and probably been lighter and more upbeat, rather than heavy and urban.

To me, "I Can Love You" doesn't sound too different from Faith Evan's "You Used to Love Me" or better yet Deborah Cox's "Sentimental" -- it just doesn't innovate or stray from typical mid '90s R&B songs.

Seriously?  Its beat is about as Y2K as you can get.  There's no laid-back, bassy funk to it at all, but rather frantic, trebly, shuffling percussion rhythms.  It fits perfectly alongside anything that Timbaland produced around that time.

Honestly, I don't know any song that sounds like "Don't Leave Me". While progressive in its production, I don't think it started any new trends. It was just a unique song in my view. "Don't Wanna Be a Player" on the other hand definitely sounds like the catalyst for future R&B slow jams with its cowbells seemingly replacing snares and the harps replacing pianos.

It's ironic that you mention both songs in that paragraph because I actually think "Don't Leave Me" and "Don't Wanna Be a Player" sound quite alike in their production.  They're similarly paced and have that same "cha-ka-cha, ka" rhythm throughout.  But both songs fit in with the straight-sequenced, syncopated, percussive nature of late 90s and early 2000s urban music that was lacking in the funky mid-90s.

I will admit that those pictures weren't the best representations of how similar the fashions were. They were just the easiest to find. I do think you have to give some credit to the first two pictures on the 1994 and 1997 ones though. I would try harder and put more effort into looking up pictures and videos, but it's too late right now.

Like you said regarding U2 in the 90s, fashion in the 90s was actually pretty fluid to some degree.  In fact, the biggest differences between the early 90s and the Spice Girls/Puff Daddy/Master P late 90s are the fact that the early 90s still had a lot of 80s-ish styles carrying over like neon clothing, permed hair, and eraser tops, whereas the late 90s did not.  However, you could still find somebody will curtain hair or a flannel shirt in 1992, as well as 1998.  There was definite overlap between the eras.

I know that the teen pop was aimed at Millennials, I'm talking about the non teen pop stuff. The fact that "Candle in the Wind", "Un-Break My Heart", "I Believe I Can Fly", "I'll Be Missing You", and "Don't Let Go (Love)" were the biggest singles of 1997 say that Generation X was still "in power" that year. If it wasn't those ten teen pop songs that I had mentioned, it was usually mid '90s-sounding songs.

I actually don't think any of the songs you listed, aside perhaps from "Don't Let Go (Love)" distinctly represent the mid-90s.  "I Believe I Can Fly" sounds more on the cusp on mid and late because its production is notably posher than stuff from his 1995 self-titled album like "I Can't Sleep Baby (If I)."  "Un-Break My Heart" actually strikes me as more late 90s because of its more synthesized backdrop (as opposed to crashing snares like a lot of mid-90s ballads) and use of acoustic guitars, which make it sound quite similar to Mariah Carey's "My All," a #1 song in mid-1998.

More like general 90s songs, as well as plenty of late 90s-leaning hip hop and r&b.  There are plenty of singles of those genera from that list that sound comfortably late 90s, in my opinion, such as "You Make Me Wanna," "I Belong to You (Every Time I See Your Face)," "Mo' Money Mo Problems," "G.H.E.T.T.O.U.T.," "4 Seasons of Loneliness" (which sounds a lot more electronic than Boyz II Men's earlier work), "My Love Is the Shhh!," "Up Jumps Da Boogie," "Pony," "Gotham City," "What About Us," and "You Should Be Mine (Don't Waste Your Time)."  One of the biggest songs of 1997, which isn't on this list due to not being a commercially released single, is Will Smith's "Men in Black," which topped both the Hot 100 Airplay and Rhythmic Top 40 charts, as well as making it to #2 on the Mainstream Top 40.  Sure, it may sound distinctly classic 90s, but Will Smith as a solo artist (not as The Fresh Prince) was one of the most significant rappers of the late 90s, remaining popular all the way through the new millennium on the heels on "Wild, Wild West" and "Will 2K."

I honestly do think that Mase was aimed primarily at Generation X, as his style of hip-hop is still very old school. It was east coast style (a gen x trend) and featured heavy samples of old songs.

Those aren't really Generation-X distinguishers.  The East Coast was pretty much the dominant center of hip hop throughout the millennial era and early 2000s, during which artists like Jay-Z, DMX, and Fabolous were really popular.  Plenty of hip hop songs from the early 2000s sampled older classics, like Jay-Z's "Izzo (H.O.V.A.)," for example.

Hip hop has also always been about materialism and status. Many '80s and early and mid '90s hip hop songs had that. Millennial hip hop artists and music actually stopped the sampling, and styles were more southern instead. The "hip-hop for Millennials" is harsher and less melodic, while Generation X hip-hop was more musical and simplistic, even acoustic at times.

By the time 1997 arrived, however, hip hop started to become glossier and more pre-packaged than it ever had in the past.  I wouldn't necessarily describe Generation X hip hop as "more musical and simplistic," especially by the mid-90s, when the lyrics were a lot more violent and rebellious and the production sounded menacing.

Other than that, I agree with the cartoons and such, and the rebellious vibe of the mid '90s being dead by 1997 is debatable (I think it was still relevant then). Regardless, I still think 1997 is way more like 1994 than it is like 2000 or even 1999. It was a period of change and transition.

I think 1997 is a lot different from 1994, though.  1994 still had a large amount of early 90s influences throughout.  Contemporary r&b didn't start to fully adopt that laid-back funk until around the last third of the year, when things like Brandy's self-titled debut and TLC's CrazySexyCool came out, and there was still a ton of new-jack swing on the charts that year, such as "You Want This," "Stay," "Misled," and "If You Go."  Grunge was also in its commercial peak.  Nickelodeon was still in the midst of its golden era, Friends only just premiered, and shows like Sabrina, the Teenage Witch, King of the Hill, and 7th Heaven weren't on television yet.  Almost nobody in 1994, besides the most hardcore of nerds, knew about or used the Internet (Netscape came out that year, but Internet Explorer was still a year away), whereas by 1997, it was a rapidly growing trend that constantly made headline news stories.  I can understand comparing the year more to 1994 than 2000 or 1999 because it was clearly still a classic 90s year, which 2000 and 1999 were not, but within the whole 90s decade, I think its an exaggeration to call it the "exact same era" as 1994.

Those were some sweet times. When Hogan was the king.


and you also had The Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man Randy Savage and the Undertaker.

Overall, a core/mid-90s year, but with the pre-summer months being the last vestiges of the early '90s. Michael Jackson began the year fresh from his Dangerous tour/album along with a memorable Super Bowl Halftime Show performance, and ended the year being known as a child molester and "Wacko Jacko" and seen as yesterday's news. We started the year buying floppy disk (smaller than the '80s ones, but still floppies) for PC games, and ended with CD-ROM. Spring 1993 had a TMNT movie, while summer brought Jurassic Park. Myst, Doom, and Mortal Kombat were about as '90s as you could get with regard to video games.

But overall, like I mentioned in a post on the '80s board with that decade, I like to divide the mid-90s into two-sub eras, with the summer of 1995 (when AOL started to air commercials nationally, Windows 95's release, along with the Sega Saturn and the PlayStation launching the fifth generation of video games) diving the two (and perhaps the '90s in general), ending in the spring of 1997. The former still progresses away from the '80s and the early '90s, while the later looks towards the end of the '90s/21st century thanks to the tech/global ethics/sensationalist culture along with the coming of age of the earliest Millennials. 

I have to disagree with you on this one. I don't think the mid '90s is divided into two parts - it's all one coherent era. 1994 is completely different from the '80s, but the 1994-1997 period as a whole fits well with the early '90s. 1997 has more in common with 1993 than 2001. I also disagree with the earliest Millennials coming of age in the mid '90s. The oldest Millennials (1982) were 15 in 1997, and that's when things began to change (although it was still core '90s). Both core '80s and core '90s cultures are 100% Generation X eras, while Millennials didn't start coming in until teen pop. They didn't start becoming a genuinely significant demographic until about 1998 or more comfortably 1999.



Yep!

I strongly disagree with most of these examples, on both sides.  I'm going to give a basic overview of each song I disagree with to say what I mean:


I respect your opinion, but there are many statements below that don't click in my mind. I find it incredibly fascinating that what is seen as completely reasonable and normal to one person can really sit badly with someone else.

* "Fly" - While you could compare this to Sublime (whose self-titled album is really on the cusp of the mid and late 90s), Sugar Ray was predominantly a Y2k-era band, and this song is a perfect representation of their mainstream work, which would later include stuff like "Someday" and "When It's Over."

* "One Headlight," "If You Could Only See," "Everyday Is a Winding Road," "A Change Would Do You Good," "All for You," "When You're Gone/Free to Decide," "Bitch" - See my above comment about core 90s alternative surviving into early 1999 (and even beyond that, albeit not as popular).  In fact, with the exception of "Bitch" and "All for You," all of these songs were released on albums from 1996.

"Fly" is much richer than the rest of their hit singles. It's true that that song was much poppier than the other songs on the album it belonged to, but the composition is more diverse than Sugar Ray's future hits. "Every Morning", "Someday", and "When It's Over" are just a hybrid of pop rock and alternative hip-hop, while "Falls Apart" is a bit more alternative rock with a surf vibe. "Fly" on the other hand mixes reggae fusion with acoustic rock, funk metal, hip-hop, and ska. Mixing of genres was not uncommon in the mid '90s.

As for the second paragraph, I didn't understand where you were coming from. Were you agreeing with me? As a matter of fact, "When You're Gone/Free to Decide" is actually a great example of 1997 hits that could have been big in 1993. They both don't sound too different from "Linger".

* "I'll Be" - This is more on the cusp of mid and late 90s.  I highly doubt this would have been made in 1994/1995 because it's too slickly produced.

* "Your Woman" - This is another song with production that's far too slick to fit in with the mid-90s.  Its beat sounds similar to "Say You'll Be There."

1994 had plenty of slickly produced songs. "Do You Wanna Get Funky", "Funky Melody", "Living In Danger", and "100% Pure Love" are very polished and tightly composed. Speaking of which, "Say You'll Be There" has a more similar beat to "Do You Wanna Get Funky", but it's softer and less intense. "Your Woman" doesn't sound slick and polished at all. The beats are totally mid '90s; they sound very similar, almost exactly the same, as Coolio's "Fantastic Voyage". Other obvious similarities are the grimy synthesizers and the deep bass. White Town even said himself that he made that song on really old equipment, so it's no wonder that it sounds 1994-ish.

Now for the 1994 songs you think would be popular in 1997:

This is going to be fun!

"What's the Frequency Kenneth?," "Buddy Holly,"  "I Alone,""Basket Case" - Guitars this heavy and distorted weren't really popular beyond 1996.  It was mostly the lighter stuff that survived through the end of the cultural 90s.

"If You Could Only See" and "Bitch" have pretty distorted synthesizers. The former actually has pretty heavy guitars. Both of their music videos especially prove my point. The fashions would are exactly what people in 1994 were wearing. As in: Not different from My So Called Life and Party of Five.

"Closing Time" is a 1998 song that has pretty heavy guitars, though not too distorted.

"Zombie," "Vasoline" - These especially would not have attained success in 1997.  Yes, the Cranberries had a hit at the very start of that year, but again, it was of the lighter style and not an ultra-dark grunge song.  "Vasoline" is prime early-mid-90s grunge, a movement that was dead by the time spring 1997 came.  The closest thing to a 1997 grunge hit is Blur's "Song 2," which Damon Albarn has claimed is a satire of the genre, not an homage.

They absolutely would have had success in 1997. Once again, "If You Could Only See" is an obvious example. However, the biggest pieces of evidence are Alanis Morissette's "Uninvited" and Live's "Lankini's Juice". Both of these are ridiculously angry, dark, heavy, and very, very, very intense. Also, "Vasoline" is just a general core '90s song, not strictly belonging in the early, mid, or late category because the song features latin percussions, giving it a more diverse feel than most grunge songs. This was not uncommon in the '90s.

"Tootsee Roll" - Miami bass was pretty much something that was present for all of the 90s,beginning in 1992.  Luke's "Raise the Roof" was popular in 1998, and even the Baha Men's "Who Let the Dogs Out" fits along perfectly with songs by groups like Tag Team.

I'm not so sure about this. 2 Live Crew released a song called "Me So Horny" in 1989 which became a hit reaching #26 on the USA pop charts. A year later they released "Banned in the U.S.A." which hit even higher at #20. Other than that I don't see any other Miami Bass songs becoming hits until 1993 when it became an actual trend. I will need proof supporting that above statement.

"Be Happy," "Creep," "I Wanna Be Down" - This type of pop r&b went out of style by the time 1997 arrived. As soon as "If Your Girl Only Knew" and "No Diggity" hit airwaves in late 1996, urban music started to become all about hard, trebly, syncopated rhythms instead of silky, bassy funk.

Honestly, I think you're exaggerating how much "No Diggity" changed the game. The way you say it makes it seem like the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" of the urban community. The only thing that makes it really distinct is the really loud cymbal that occurs every time the drum machine reaches the snare. I still consider it mid '90s. It has pianos, black male group vocals, a rapper or two, a hip-hop beat, and yes, bassy funk. It does not sound too different from New Edition's "Hit Me Off", and they both have the exact same tempo at 89 beats per minute. They both would have found success in 1993 and maybe even 1992.

I already commented that mid-90s Bad Boy productions sound nothing like late 90s Bad Boy productions, not to mention Sean Combs himself was never a main performing artist until "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down."  The newer, glammier style of production began with the remix of 112's "Only You" that features Mase in his debut and became fully established throughout the late 90s.

See my above response involving Foxy Brown.

It's definitely core 90s, but I find it too slickly produced to fit directly alongside Daydream.  "My All" was a #1 hit in 1998.

I actually think either one of two things: a) That Daydream is pretty tightly produced compared to most of the music at the time, or the more viable option b) Butterfly isn't that polished. When I first heard "Honey" I thought it was pretty hardcore and gritty. Those synthesizers have a growl to them, the bass is deep, and the drums are loud. "Butterfly" and "My All" could fit in well with the mid '90s as well. I think their span would have been 1994-1998.

I'm honestly surprised by the confidence with which you say it "isn't debatable" that 1997 is mid-90s.  For one thing, it's chronologically late 90s, and it's not as different from 1998 or most of 1999 as you seem to imply.

I know that, I'm not stupid. I only said it wasn't debatable because I know what I'm talking about. It's not out of ignorance of what happened during that decade, I made my decision based on everything that I have observed, studied, and analyzed over a period of almost two years and I came to the conclusion that 1994 and 1997 are one and the same. Because I have put so much time and effort in my opinion, I have absolutely no reason to change it. I do, however, find it incredibly fun to debate though (which is what I'm doing right now!).



Once again, you're forgetting that adult ballads and alternative rock remained popular well beyond just 1997.  "Sunny Came Home," for example, sounds a ton like Ashlee Simpson's "Pieces of Me" from 2004.  Either way, of course the teen pop was going to clash with the rock.  It's not like all alternative rock suddenly sounded like Hanson in 1998-2001, either.  Also, since when is "No Diggity" a mid-90s-style track?


Really? I don't think "Sunny Came Home" sounds like "Pieces of Me" at all! I actually think that is one of the most perfect examples of a 1997 song that would have easily been popular in 1994! First of all, it's a folk rock song, while "Pieces of Me" is a pop rock tune. The lyrical content is also very contrasting: "Sunny" is a very dark song about a woman who decides to abandon her past and even burn down her house because she was a victim of physical abuse. "Pieces" is light and airy and has no lyrical depth - it''s just pop. The banjos don't do anything to make it sound 2000's at all. Folk music was one of the most ridiculed genres in the 2000's, everyone made fun of it. It was really popular in the '90s and came back in the 2010s. Contemporary Folk had it's roots in the 1960's which is when it became really popular. There is no way that "Sunny" would have been popular in the 2000's.

There are definitely certain underlying similarities across the board.  In fact, certain types of music were popular during all three sub-eras.  New-jack swing had some presence in pop pretty much the whole decade, and the type of classic 90s alternative you've been describing as mid-90s was actually already huge in the early 90s, beginning in late 1992 with songs like "All I Want," "Constant Craving," and "Always the Last to Know." before proceeding with megahits such as "Two Princes" and "Runaway Train;" like I said, it was still relevant through about the mid-2000s.

Yes, but those three songs were much lighter and more jangly compared to the alt-rock of the mid '90s. I could even include "I Touch Myself" as within that category if I wanted to. The only thing that distinguishes that song from the rest is the slightly gated drums.

I don't think "Steelo" would have been popular beyond 1998, but it was still very different from mid-90s pop urban.  Its beat is a lot more in-your-face than something like "Creep" or "I Wanna Be Down," which make me want to kick off my socks and lounge on my sofa.  I especially don't understand how the track sounds early 90s, though.  Had it been made back then, it would have more of a new-jack swing rhythm and probably been lighter and more upbeat, rather than heavy and urban.

It's ironic that you mention both songs in that paragraph because I actually think "Don't Leave Me" and "Don't Wanna Be a Player" sound quite alike in their production.  They're similarly paced and have that same "cha-ka-cha, ka" rhythm throughout.  But both songs fit in with the straight-sequenced, syncopated, percussive nature of late 90s and early 2000s urban music that was lacking in the funky mid-90s.

I agree with "I Wanna Be Down", definitely not "Creep". The latter is definitely not a song to chill out to. It is clearly meant for dancing and playing at parties, as with "Steelo".

I don't think "Don't Leave Me" would have been popular beyond 1998. It sounds very different from the more boring and uninspired ballads of 1999-2001. 2002 is also the year ballads completely died, as well as R&B dying off and being completely replaced by "Hip-Hop with singing".

I actually don't think any of the songs you listed, aside perhaps from "Don't Let Go (Love)" distinctly represent the mid-90s.  "I Believe I Can Fly" sounds more on the cusp on mid and late because its production is notably posher than stuff from his 1995 self-titled album like "I Can't Sleep Baby (If I)."  "Un-Break My Heart" actually strikes me as more late 90s because of its more synthesized backdrop (as opposed to crashing snares like a lot of mid-90s ballads) and use of acoustic guitars, which make it sound quite similar to Mariah Carey's "My All," a #1 song in mid-1998.

Eh.. I don't think R. Kelly's 1995 album is all that gritty. I actually think it's pretty polished. Also, "Un-Break My Heart" has the crashing snares. Have you heard the gated drums at the end? The "landscape" of the music is also synthesized, as is with "My All". I can actually imagine those songs being popular in the early 1990's. Adult Contemporary didn't changed too much from 1989 until 1999.

More like general 90s songs, as well as plenty of late 90s-leaning hip hop and r&b. One of the biggest songs of 1997, which isn't on this list due to not being a commercially released single, is Will Smith's "Men in Black," which topped both the Hot 100 Airplay and Rhythmic Top 40 charts, as well as making it to #2 on the Mainstream Top 40.  Sure, it may sound distinctly classic 90s, but Will Smith as a solo artist (not as The Fresh Prince) was one of the most significant rappers of the late 90s, remaining popular all the way through the new millennium on the heels on "Wild, Wild West" and "Will 2K."

I can actually imagine Will Smith's "Men in Black" being popular even in 1991. It has a stomp snare+clap beat that was very popular for almost all of the '90s, the synthesizers are very dated in a early and mid '90s-esque way, and the fact that he features Coko from SWV dates it even more. While Will Smith is a late '90s artist, this song doesn't sound late '90s.

Those aren't really Generation-X distinguishers.  The East Coast was pretty much the dominant center of hip hop throughout the millennial era and early 2000s, during which artists like Jay-Z, DMX, and Fabolous were really popular.  Plenty of hip hop songs from the early 2000s sampled older classics, like Jay-Z's "Izzo (H.O.V.A.)," for example.

By the time 1997 arrived, however, hip hop started to become glossier and more pre-packaged than it ever had in the past.  I wouldn't necessarily describe Generation X hip hop as "more musical and simplistic," especially by the mid-90s, when the lyrics were a lot more violent and rebellious and the production sounded menacing.

Actually, they kind of are. Yes, the east coast remained popular in the very early 2000's, but not dominant. In 2000 you had guys like Nelly and Ludacris taking over hip-hop, and clearly became the biggest rappers of the early '00s. 2002 and 2003 were their commercial peaks. They were more popular and relevant than Jay-Z, DMX, and Fabolous. Also, I need to take note that "hip" is not the same as "popular". Celine Dion was popular, but she wasn't "hip". Jay, DMX, and Fab were in that position. Nelly and Luda, on the other hand, were actually hip and cool, as well as popular.

The reason why I made that statement about Gen-X hip-hop is because it's true. Menacing does not mean it isn't beautiful. Beautiful music does not always have to produce positive and happy feelings. The lyrics were more violent and rebellious, but they were also honest. I also wouldn't consider the productions of "Dear Mama", "California Love", and "How Do You Want It" as menacing. "Old School" and "So Many Tears" are a bit gritty and definitely hardcore though. Nonetheless, all of these songs are melodic. Millennial hip-hop, such as "Move Bitch", "Get Low", "Laffy Taffy", and "Freak a Leek" aren't melodic.

I think 1997 is a lot different from 1994, though.  1994 still had a large amount of early 90s influences throughout.  Contemporary r&b didn't start to fully adopt that laid-back funk until around the last third of the year, when things like Brandy's self-titled debut and TLC's CrazySexyCool came out, and there was still a ton of new-jack swing on the charts that year, such as "You Want This," "Stay," "Misled," and "If You Go."  Grunge was also in its commercial peak.  Nickelodeon was still in the midst of its golden era, Friends only just premiered, and shows like Sabrina, the Teenage Witch, King of the Hill, and 7th Heaven weren't on television yet.  Almost nobody in 1994, besides the most hardcore of nerds, knew about or used the Internet (Netscape came out that year, but Internet Explorer was still a year away), whereas by 1997, it was a rapidly growing trend that constantly made headline news stories.  I can understand comparing the year more to 1994 than 2000 or 1999 because it was clearly still a classic 90s year, which 2000 and 1999 were not, but within the whole 90s decade, I think its an exaggeration to call it the "exact same era" as 1994.

I don't. Yes you are right about the internet, but you're placing too much emphasis on the kid culture. Everything I write about '90s mainstream popular culture is from a Generation X perspective, as much as I can try. Almost all of the decade are classic '90s years, with the exception of the very first and the very last year of the decade. And 1995-1997 is not different from the early '90s. Songs like "Runaway", "Hand in My Pocket", "Twisted", "Hey Lover", "Doin' It", "Stupid Girl", "Mother Mother", "Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me", "You're Making Me High", "Trippin' on a Hole in a Paper Heart", "Standing Outside a Broken Phone Booth with Money in My Hand", "Lovefool", "Who Will Save Your Soul", "You Learn", "Salvation", "Missing", "Return of the Mack", "I Like It", "I Don't Want To", and "Swallowed" could all easily fit in with 1991-1993. 1994 and 1997 were both the same era. People were wearing the same clothes, listening to the same music, watching the same tv shows, saying the same catchphrases, going out to see the same movies, shopping at the same stores, and reading the same magazines and books. The biggest difference is the video games, but the franchises were almost completely the same so even that was much different. In my view, 1994-1997 comfortably fit into my view of the mid 1990's. Heck, 1997 has more in common with the early '90s than it does with its own chronological era - the late 1990's - all 12 months, 365 days of it.

"Fly" is much richer than the rest of their hit singles. It's true that that song was much poppier than the other songs on the album it belonged to, but the composition is more diverse than Sugar Ray's future hits. "Every Morning", "Someday", and "When It's Over" are just a hybrid of pop rock and alternative hip-hop, while "Falls Apart" is a bit more alternative rock with a surf vibe. "Fly" on the other hand mixes reggae fusion with acoustic rock, funk metal, hip-hop, and ska. Mixing of genres was not uncommon in the mid '90s.

"Fly" is hardly any different stylistically from Sugar Ray's other hit singles, you're exaggerating the differences.  Also, songs with a pop/reggae/hip hop style weren't absent from the millennial era.  "Smile" by Vitamin C is pretty much in the same vein as "Fly," and that was mid-late 1999.

As for the second paragraph, I didn't understand where you were coming from. Were you agreeing with me? As a matter of fact, "When You're Gone/Free to Decide" is actually a great example of 1997 hits that could have been big in 1993. They both don't sound too different from "Linger".

My point is that while early-mid-90s alternative was still popular in 1997, it was also still huge in 1998 and remained moderately popular until roughly the mid-2000s.

1994 had plenty of slickly produced songs. "Do You Wanna Get Funky", "Funky Melody", "Living In Danger", and "100% Pure Love" are very polished and tightly composed.

They don't sound Y2K-modern though.  All the songs you just listed, aside from "100% Pure Love" (since Crystal Waters had another hit in 1997) would have been pretty outdated by the late 90s.

Speaking of which, "Say You'll Be There" has a more similar beat to "Do You Wanna Get Funky", but it's softer and less intense. "Your Woman" doesn't sound slick and polished at all. The beats are totally mid '90s; they sound very similar, almost exactly the same, as Coolio's "Fantastic Voyage". Other obvious similarities are the grimy synthesizers and the deep bass. White Town even said himself that he made that song on really old equipment, so it's no wonder that it sounds 1994-ish.

I still really don't think it sounds 1994-sh, in spite of the old equipment.  "Do You Wanna Get Funky" and "Fantastic Voyage" have a thicker thump than "Your Woman" and snarling, g-funk-esque synths.

"If You Could Only See" and "Bitch" have pretty distorted synthesizers. The former actually has pretty heavy guitars. Both of their music videos especially prove my point. The fashions would are exactly what people in 1994 were wearing. As in: Not different from My So Called Life and Party of Five.

Synthesizers?  Only the beat from "Bitch" is synthesized.

"Closing Time" is a 1998 song that has pretty heavy guitars, though not too distorted.

By distorted, I mean like Sixteen Stone-levels, songs like "Everything Zen," "Swallowed," and Silverchair's "Tomorrow."  By the late 90s, it was pretty much just the clearer stuff that attained significant chart success, though to be fair late 90s post-grunge would not sound out of place in the mid-90s, either; the genre didn't change dramatically until Creed's "Higher" came out.

They absolutely would have had success in 1997. Once again, "If You Could Only See" is an obvious example. However, the biggest pieces of evidence are Alanis Morissette's "Uninvited" and Live's "Lankini's Juice". Both of these are ridiculously angry, dark, heavy, and very, very, very intense. Also, "Vasoline" is just a general core '90s song, not strictly belonging in the early, mid, or late category because the song features latin percussions, giving it a more diverse feel than most grunge songs. This was not uncommon in the '90s.

"Vasoline" is hardly the same type of song as "If You Could Only See," it's straight-up grunge and is far less radio-friendly than that song, bearing almost a resemblance to alternative metal, even.  Also, there were plenty of grunge songs before the core 90s with unconventional rhythmic structures; Soundgarden's own "Rusty Cage," from Badmotorfinger, is one example of this.  "Zombie" is an example of a post-grunge song that strictly fits the mid-90s.  I also don't really see "Lakini's Juice" as being that dark or gloomy; it's just sort of loud, like most late 90s post-grunge songs were.

I'm not so sure about this. 2 Live Crew released a song called "Me So Horny" in 1989 which became a hit reaching #26 on the USA pop charts. A year later they released "Banned in the U.S.A." which hit even higher at #20. Other than that I don't see any other Miami Bass songs becoming hits until 1993 when it became an actual trend. I will need proof supporting that above statement.

Honestly, "Dazzey Duks" and "Whoomph! (There It Is)" are the first huge 90s miami bass songs that come to my mind, but I was only making the point that the genre wasn't strictly mid-90s.

Honestly, I think you're exaggerating how much "No Diggity" changed the game. The way you say it makes it seem like the "Smells Like Teen Spirit" of the urban community. The only thing that makes it really distinct is the really loud cymbal that occurs every time the drum machine reaches the snare. I still consider it mid '90s. It has pianos, black male group vocals, a rapper or two, a hip-hop beat, and yes, bassy funk. It does not sound too different from New Edition's "Hit Me Off", and they both have the exact same tempo at 89 beats per minute. They both would have found success in 1993 and maybe even 1992.

What?  There's no way anything like "No Diggity" would have been made in the early 90s.  Its lyrics are far too geared towards millennials and the beat's instrumentation sounds too modern to be in the same category as something like "Humpin' Around" or "Nothin' My Love Can't Fix."  It gives off more similar vibes to something like B2K's "Bump, Bump, Bump" than, say, "She's Playing Hard to Get."

To be fair, "No Diggity" isn't really the most direct example of late 90s r&b suddenly becoming common, since it features Dr. Dre and still has a pretty mid-90s feel to its beat.  I think Aaliyah's "If Your Girl Only Knew" is really the first example of a completely obvious shift away from mid-90s urban towards Y2K-era urban, though I think "Pony" and the Mase remix of "Only You" also clearly fit under the late 90s umbrella.

That said, "No Diggity's" trebly instrumentation and more blatantly urban lyrics (with slang like "shorty" and "playette") were still a clear break from all of the silky, bassy g-funk being produced in the mid-90s.  The song's tone felt extremely cutting edge at the time of its release, which could explain why it jotted up to number 1 in late 1996.  Where, must I ask, even is the bass in the song?  It's so trebly and percussion-centric that I sometimes wonder if the regular mp3 for it is not of the best quality.  Its instrumentation sounds nothing like "Hit Me Off," I get the impression you're comparing the two songs because they're both sung by Teddy Riley-organized male r&b groups and have funky rhythms.  I know I've mentioned this before, but if there's any song whose production I would compare to "No Diggity," it would be Mary J. Blige's "Family Affair" from five years later.

See my above response involving Foxy Brown.

What response?  Stuff like "Mo' Money, Mo' Problems" and "Feel So Good" are so obviously from a different era than songs like "Player's Anthem" and "Flava in Ya Ear."

I actually think either one of two things: a) That Daydream is pretty tightly produced compared to most of the music at the time, or the more viable option b) Butterfly isn't that polished. When I first heard "Honey" I thought it was pretty hardcore and gritty. Those synthesizers have a growl to them, the bass is deep, and the drums are loud. "Butterfly" and "My All" could fit in well with the mid '90s as well. I think their span would have been 1994-1998.

"Honey" hardcore and gritty?  Are you serious?  It's just a typical slice of Bad Boy's late 90s, shiny suit, triangle-and-crystal ambiance commercial pop.  It's certainly eons apart from stuff like "Diggin' on You" and "Freak Like Me."

The differences between early 90s, mid-90s, and late 90s ballads are pretty subtle, but I think "Butterfly" and "My All" pretty clearly fit better with late 90s.  I think they sound more studio-produced than more arena-oriented songs like "One Sweet Day" and "Anytime You Need a Friend."  They're more in the same vein as stuff like Brian McKnight's "Back at One" and K-Ci & JoJo's "All My Life," imo.

I know that, I'm not stupid. I only said it wasn't debatable because I know what I'm talking about. It's not out of ignorance of what happened during that decade, I made my decision based on everything that I have observed, studied, and analyzed over a period of almost two years and I came to the conclusion that 1994 and 1997 are one and the same. Because I have put so much time and effort in my opinion, I have absolutely no reason to change it. I do, however, find it incredibly fun to debate though (which is what I'm doing right now!).

You don't have to get defensive about the legitimacy of your arguments, I certainly don't doubt you put a ton of thought into your writing, which is what makes it so enjoyable debating with you in the first place.

However, your use of phrasing in your last response to me still made it seem like it was elementary that 1997 was a mid-90s year.  You explicitly said:

1997 is the same era as 1994, and a world away from 2000. Hell, even 1999 was a different era. Generation X was still very much the dominant demographic that year. This really isn't debatable.

I think there was plenty of Generation Y-oriented culture in 1997 and 1998; even though it wasn't completely formed yet, I think it's reasonable for somebody to say both years were more targeted towards Generation Y.  Fifth generation video games, shows like South Park and King of the Hill, groups like the Spice Girls and Hanson being on everybody's mind, the grunge and gangsta rap movements being out of breath, etc., are all pretty reasonable evidence for somebody to conclude those years were more Y than X.

I find it interesting, too, that you still claim that 1994 and 1997 are "one and the same," even though you just stated, in another thread, that the first few months of 1994 were more early 90s and the entire second half of 1997 was more late 90s.  Even if you think both years overall were mostly mid-90s, I still don't get how you could act as though the two years are practically identical.

Really? I don't think "Sunny Came Home" sounds like "Pieces of Me" at all! I actually think that is one of the most perfect examples of a 1997 song that would have easily been popular in 1994! First of all, it's a folk rock song, while "Pieces of Me" is a pop rock tune. The lyrical content is also very contrasting: "Sunny" is a very dark song about a woman who decides to abandon her past and even burn down her house because she was a victim of physical abuse. "Pieces" is light and airy and has no lyrical depth - it''s just pop. The banjos don't do anything to make it sound 2000's at all. Folk music was one of the most ridiculed genres in the 2000's, everyone made fun of it. It was really popular in the '90s and came back in the 2010s. Contemporary Folk had it's roots in the 1960's which is when it became really popular. There is no way that "Sunny" would have been popular in the 2000's.

There were plenty of contemporary folk songs that still achieved success throughout the 2000s, going as far as artists like KT Tunstall and James Blunt in the mid-2000s.  Artists like the Goo Goo Dolls, Jewel, and Alanis Morissette were still highly successful and relevant for quite a sizable portion of the decade.

As for the "Sunny Came Home" and "Pieces of Me" comparison, I wasn't really referring to the lyrics, although I could still easily imagine a song as bleak as "Sunny Came Home" achieving popularity in the 2000s.  But both songs have pretty much the exact same feel, as well as similar instrumentation.  "Pieces of Me" was a prime example that 90s-style pop rock was still alive and well in the 2000s, even if teen-oriented artists were joining in on the fun more than ever.

I agree with "I Wanna Be Down", definitely not "Creep". The latter is definitely not a song to chill out to. It is clearly meant for dancing and playing at parties, as with "Steelo".

I personally feel soothed listening to "Creep's" funky beat, trumpet loop, and fuzzy bass.  It works just as well for lounging as it does for dancing.

I don't think "Don't Leave Me" would have been popular beyond 1998. It sounds very different from the more boring and uninspired ballads of 1999-2001. 2002 is also the year ballads completely died, as well as R&B dying off and being completely replaced by "Hip-Hop with singing".

"Don't Leave Me" isn't a ballad, though.  It's just a pop-urban song with a busy shuffle-beat that fits pretty comfortably alongside other songs of the same genre in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Eh.. I don't think R. Kelly's 1995 album is all that gritty. I actually think it's pretty polished. Also, "Un-Break My Heart" has the crashing snares. Have you heard the gated drums at the end? The "landscape" of the music is also synthesized, as is with "My All". I can actually imagine those songs being popular in the early 1990's. Adult Contemporary didn't changed too much from 1989 until 1999.

I don't think "gritty" is the appropriate word to describe R. Kelly's self-titled debut, but it still feels a lot dreamier and more ambient than "I Believe I Can Fly," which, similar to the ballads from Mariah Carey's Butterfly, sounds accessible and studio-produced.

I can actually imagine Will Smith's "Men in Black" being popular even in 1991. It has a stomp snare+clap beat that was very popular for almost all of the '90s, the synthesizers are very dated in a early and mid '90s-esque way, and the fact that he features Coko from SWV dates it even more. While Will Smith is a late '90s artist, this song doesn't sound late '90s.

It totally sounds late 90s.  It's pretty much in that same cheesy vein as Puff Daddy and Mase's songs from that era, and it's not at all different from Smith's subsequent hits like "Gettin' Jiggy Wit It," "Miami," and "Wild Wild West."  There's also no way a song that glossy and modernly-synthesized would've been made during the same era as "Summertime" or "2 Legit 2 Quit."

Actually, they kind of are. Yes, the east coast remained popular in the very early 2000's, but not dominant. In 2000 you had guys like Nelly and Ludacris taking over hip-hop, and clearly became the biggest rappers of the early '00s. 2002 and 2003 were their commercial peaks. They were more popular and relevant than Jay-Z, DMX, and Fabolous. Also, I need to take note that "hip" is not the same as "popular". Celine Dion was popular, but she wasn't "hip". Jay, DMX, and Fab were in that position. Nelly and Luda, on the other hand, were actually hip and cool, as well as popular.

Well, in the mid-90s, the East Coast was accompanied by gangsta rap, and even as soon as mid-1997, No Limit Records emerged as a serious contender to all of the New York-based hip hop labels at the time.

Also, what about rappers like Ja Rule, Cam'ron, and the like?  They achieved pretty consistent chart success during the early 2000s and they were also from New York.  Also, most hip hop fans took Jay-Z's The Blueprint, as well as Nas' Stillmatic far more seriously than anything coming out of St. Louis or Atlanta (aside from Outkast).

The reason why I made that statement about Gen-X hip-hop is because it's true. Menacing does not mean it isn't beautiful. Beautiful music does not always have to produce positive and happy feelings. The lyrics were more violent and rebellious, but they were also honest. I also wouldn't consider the productions of "Dear Mama", "California Love", and "How Do You Want It" as menacing. "Old School" and "So Many Tears" are a bit gritty and definitely hardcore though. Nonetheless, all of these songs are melodic. Millennial hip-hop, such as "Move Bitch", "Get Low", "Laffy Taffy", and "Freak a Leek" aren't melodic.

I think "California Love" and "How Do U Want It" are pretty menacing and street.  There were still a lot of hip hop songs in the 2000s with pretty strong melodic tendencies, like "What's Luv," "Hey Ma," and "Empire State of Mind," just to name a few.

I don't. Yes you are right about the internet, but you're placing too much emphasis on the kid culture.

Are the PlayStation 1, South Park, King of the Hill, 7th Heaven, and changing musical trends (if not teen pop, then at least Radiohead's revolutionary OK Computer) strictly "kid culture?"

Everything I write about '90s mainstream popular culture is from a Generation X perspective, as much as I can try. Almost all of the decade are classic '90s years, with the exception of the very first and the very last year of the decade. And 1995-1997 is not different from the early '90s. Songs like "Runaway", "Hand in My Pocket", "Twisted", "Hey Lover", "Doin' It", "Stupid Girl", "Mother Mother", "Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me", "You're Making Me High", "Trippin' on a Hole in a Paper Heart", "Standing Outside a Broken Phone Booth with Money in My Hand", "Lovefool", "Who Will Save Your Soul", "You Learn", "Salvation", "Missing", "Return of the Mack", "I Like It", "I Don't Want To", and "Swallowed" could all easily fit in with 1991-1993. 1994 and 1997 were both the same era.

Okay, this is totally exaggerating things.  Do you really think the above songs sound anything like these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY84MRnxVzo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyDjRd0Tjss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byEGjLU2egA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjWSMxLbbe0

Also, did you just mention how the alternative songs I listed from the early 90s sounded more jangly than the core 90s example you brought up?

Movements such as britpop, pop punk, post-grunge, and even the 90s brand of contemporary folk weren't yet mainstream in the early 90s, nor had pop and urban developed that laid-back funk that would dominate the mid-90s.

People were wearing the same clothes, listening to the same music, watching the same tv shows, saying the same catchphrases, going out to see the same movies, shopping at the same stores, and reading the same magazines and books. The biggest difference is the video games, but the franchises were almost completely the same so even that was much different.

The same clothes and tv shows?  Were these things really fashionable by 1995-1997?

http://static.awkwardfamilyphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/cache/2013/03/197785_10150262004654121_2659499_n/2067548483.jpg

http://www.rentcafe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/90s-clothing-e1347462664322.jpg

https://fanart.tv/fanart/tv/77623/hdclearart/cheers-511fe10a54ca7.png

On the flip side, the early 90s lacked a ton of important mid-90s shows like Beavis & Butthead, Friends, and The X-Files, except maybe during the transition into the mid-90s (certainly not 1991 or 1992, at least).

Ironically, video games are pretty much one of the things I think changed the least between the early 90s and mid-90s.  Both sub-eras were commercially dominated by fourth-generation systems, with the SNES in particular being huge during both periods.  Fifth generation games hadn't really taken off yet until late 1996, and even in the early 90s, there were a lot of attempts at 3D games, i.e. Star Fox, Wolfenstein 3D, and Alone in the Dark.

In my view, 1994-1997 comfortably fit into my view of the mid 1990's. Heck, 1997 has more in common with the early '90s than it does with its own chronological era - the late 1990's - all 12 months, 365 days of it.

I'm sorry, but at this point, I feel like you're just reacting against my categorization of 1997 with the Y2K era.  It's one thing to say 1997 is more of a mid-90s year (not something I agree with, but I can understand it), but that it's more similar to the early 90s than its own chronological era?  I think even most people who think 1997 was strictly mid-90s would tell you that doesn't make any sense.  Did the late 90s really evolve that quickly and the early-mid 90s that slowly?  I know you're passionate and considerate about your opinion, and I can at least understand where you're coming from in most of your response, but this statement in particular just baffles my mind.

Those aren't 90's things, those are 80's things.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on that.

Is Ronnie's presidency a 90's thing too?


Ronnie's books are '90s things.

I don't know how 1998 and 1999 are so different to you. They're both years of the late 90's/early 00's Y2K era just like 2000-2003 are.

Star Wars: Episode 1 was not the highest grossing movie of 1998.

The Star Wars prequels of the 00s were to the original trilogy what the paraquels of the late '10s and early '20s are to the it: they're both bookends

Besides, '90s shows like Geraldo, Unsolved Mysteries, and Seinfeld were over before our 1999 calendars went up.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on that.


Well, 1993 was like the last year where 80s vibes were still around. I swear to god, there were tons of things that make 1993 a bit related to the 80s. For instance, they still had the East-West division system for Major League Baseball. That was the last time when they only had the NL/ALCS and World Series. After '93, they pretty much announced that they're going to have a Central division in both leagues. Sure, you had Bill Clinton's first year as president back in '93, but George H.W. Bush was still president until January 20th of that year.

Ronnie's books are '90s things.

Ronnie's books weren't that definitive during the 90s. People were more focused on Bill Clinton than Reagan back then. Unless you were a Republican that wanted another conservative in office, just like Bush, Sr.

Star Wars: Episode 1 was not the highest grossing movie of 1998.

That still makes 1998 more related to 1999-2002. For example, if you watched HBO during the late 90s/early 00s, you'll pretty much see either Oz (1997-2003), Sex and the City (1998-2004), The Sopranos (1999-2007), Curb Your Enthusiasm (2000-present), Six Feet Under (2001-2005), and The Wire (2002-2008) on their original programming schedule.

The Star Wars prequels of the 00s were to the original trilogy what the paraquels of the late '10s and early '20s are to the it: bookends

Those prequels took place before the paraquels obviously. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Episodes VII and VIII weren't made because of the prequels. They were made because people wanted to see more of Star Wars. They wanted to see more Jedis, robots, lightsaber duels, etc.

Besides, '90s shows like Geraldo, Unsolved Mysteries, and Seinfeld were over before our 1999 calendars went up.


But that still doesn't make 1998 less comparable to 1999.

Wow, this says everything that anybody needs to know about your ridiculous theory.  I guess the Reagan Revolution and fall of the Berlin Wall were nothing but insignificant blips that were merely building up to George H. W. Bush being in his second year in office as President of the United States in 1990.

It's not as ridiculous as you think, really, nor is it a theory.  8)

Of course you're going to have "best of the eighties" compilation media at the chronological beginning of the new decade.  Were complete "best of the seventies" books being released at the start of 1978, which also included Woodstock, the Moon Landing, or anything else that had to do with the spirit of '69?  Did it take until January 1, 2011 instead of the turn of 2010 for "best of the 2000s" books, articles, and YouTube videos to arrive?

The second "Best of the Eighties" book of the Archie Americana Series was first sold at bookstores in 2010, for your information.

Awesome.  In 2003,the entire trilogy was released as a DVD set, so I guess we can call that an iconic part of 2000s culture as well:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y9N6Q32TL.jpg

It's not the same, Infinity. The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles did not premiere on Television two years after the entire trilogy was on DVD in 2003.

1990 was just the height of the Ninja Turtles craze, which began in the late 80s and started to cool off before the core 90s even took off.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles craze began and ended in 1990. They were the best selling toys of 1990 and most people over the age of 40 remember them as '90s icons.

The moonwalk is like the iconic dance move of the 80s.  Michael Jackson's Moonwalker came out in 1989, not 1990, not to mention Back to the Future Part III was filmed in 1988 (the same time as Part II from 1989).

Most importantly, when was Back to the Future Part 3 was shown in theaters?  8)

I guess there's still a strong "2000s vibe" to 2016 as well, and of course by 2000s things I mean anything that represents the spirit of '99.


Nice one, you really me there, champ.  ::)

Those prequels took place before the paraquels obviously. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Episodes VII and VIII weren't made because of the prequels. They were made because people wanted to see more of Star Wars. They wanted to see more Jedis, robots, lightsaber duels, etc.


I was not comparing them, NewYorkEagle.

But that still doesn't make 1998 less comparable to 1999.


Strongly disagree with you on that. The '90s atmosphere was dead after 1998.

Oh, goodie!  Here we go, I suppose...


It's not as ridiculous as you think, really, nor is it a theory.  8)

How is it not a ridiculous and biased theory to say 1979 to 1989 were all insignificant years in history and that their only purpose was to lead us to 1990?  You're the only person I've ever met, born before or after 1977, who makes such an obsessively big deal out of 1990 as to rule out the cultural and historic significance of the eleven years that preceded it.

The second "Best of the Eighties" book of the Archie Americana Series was first sold at bookstores in 2010, for your information.

That's not relevant to my question.  I was only asking you whether or not "best of the 70s" books started flooding stores in 1978 or if it really took until 2011, not 2010, for "best of the 2000s" media to show up.

It's not the same, Infinity. The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles did not premiere on Television two years after the entire trilogy was on DVD in 2003.

Well, the fourth movie still came out in 2008, just five years after the DVD release of the original trilogy.  I know a lot of people genuinely believe Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull is literally not of the same caliber as the first three films, but if we're going by the logic of whether merchandise continued to be produced for the franchise, it's still relevant regardless.  The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles are hardly more important or influential that the theatrical trilogy, you're just trying to associate a clearly 80s franchise with the 90s in any way you can.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles craze began and ended in 1990. They were the best selling toys of 1990 and most people over the age of 40 remember them as '90s icons.

1990 was still a predominantly 80s year though, with only bits and pieces of what would become the true 90s.  It's not controversial to call the Turtles 90s things because they were still relevant during the early 90s, but you can't deny their importance to the late 80s, either.

Most importantly, when was Back to the Future Part 3 was shown in theaters?  8)

May 1990, a month that was still quintessential late 80s and hardly had a regular 90s vibe to it.  You're the one who previously called 1990 an "extension of 1988-1989."

Nice one, you really me there, champ.  ::)

But isn't it still consistent with your argument about a so-called "70s vibe" being prominent through 1989?

It's not as ridiculous as you think, really, nor is it a theory.  8)


No, it simply isn't. 1990-93 weren't even that debatable with 1994-99 as being the 90s.

The second "Best of the Eighties" book of the Archie Americana Series was first sold at bookstores in 2010, for your information.

That's not what Infinity was talking about. She was saying that there would be a "Best of " book at every turn of the decade. Also, having a second book on the same decade wouldn't really improve your point.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles craze began and ended in 1990. They were the best selling toys of 1990 and most people over the age of 40 remember them as '90s icons.

Wasn't the TMNT craze more 1987-91ish? People wouldn't really spend 365 days on a single franchise and move on to the next. That's not how the human minds work, dude.

Most importantly, when was Back to the Future Part 3 was shown in theaters?  8)


1990. But that doesn't really make the movie look like it was from the 90s.