Quoting:
I like a nice combination of creation and evolution personally.
End Quote

I agree with Gis on this one.  I can buy the "Big Bang" theory, and understand evolution, etc.  But the question I have that noone can answer is where did the original particle that started the "BB" come from?  OBVIOUSLY, it had to be created by someone/thing. ???

Quoting:
Evolution.Period. ;D
End Quote

before darwin there was copernicus and before him newton. all were thought to be correct (with a period). i dunno if we can be so certain.

Quoting:
Why do so many people feel the need to argue about this? Does it really matter where the universe came from? It's here, leave it at that. We evolved from apes? Well whoopdi frickin do! What does that do for me right now? Nothing, that's what.

Will finding out that we come from apes or were placed here by some divine being change the situation in my life? No. I still have bills to pay, a job to go to, taxes, a girlfriend to nag me, and certain death within the next 50 years.
End Quote

I understand your pessimistic opinion.

However, I don't believe anybody on this thread have argued at all. They have given their views on this subject in a very civil manner - in fact I'm a little surprised.  ;D

What I find quite interesting is that some people like to imagine the start of creation as a mix of different reasons and not solely one. I was perhaps expecting one or the other.

Quoting:
Occam's Razor: when two solutions for the same problem are proposed, the simpler of the two is likely to be the one that's correct.
End Quote

Hmm! Occam's Razor. Is that a theory of some kind or is it an 'Aesop's fable' type thing?

Quoting:


before darwin there was copernicus and before him newton. all were thought to be correct (with a period). i dunno if we can be so certain.
End Quote

Copernicus and Newton were correct. What's your point?

Quoting:


Hmm! Occam's Razor. Is that a theory of some kind or is it an 'Aesop's fable' type thing?
End Quote

It's called a razor because it cuts through all the BS.

Quoting:


It's called a razor because it cuts through all the BS.
End Quote

  Yuppers.

  It says that entities should not be introduced without necessity. There is no need for God in an explaination of evolution, so God is a superfluous entity in that theory.

Quoting:
  It is quite possible that a God is behind evolution. There is no way to disprove that. End Quote

There's no way of proving it, either.

Quoting:


There's no way of proving it, either.
End Quote

  And therein lies the problem...

Quoting:


  And therein lies the problem...
End Quote

Well, only if you're trying to prove the existence of God. But if you have faith in Him, you don't need to prove it. God is not a scientific concept. It's a philosophical construct. And you don't need to prove those.

Quoting:""The Babel fish," said The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is small, yellow and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from it's own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of it's carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your Babel fish."

   "Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God."

   "The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
   "But", says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
   "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
   "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."End Quote

Quoting:
If you believe in God, then The Creation is a fact.
End Quote

I believe in logic, then the above is a non sequitur

Phil

Quoting:
God exists for you, when you have some sort of experience that proves to you with all your heart that he is real. This is very different for each person - but I hope it happens to everyone.

Having said that - I believe in creation and evolution.
End Quote

I'm afraid I have never had such an experience, Gecko. Maybe I am to cynical and put everything down to coincidence. I believe in creation (for me evolution needs a source) but I am what's probably called 'spiritually lost'. I still have some form of faith in something but I am not too sure what that faith is and whether I should follow it - deep stuff in it?

Quoting:
God exists for you, when you have some sort of experience that proves to you with all your heart that he is real. This is very different for each person - but I hope it happens to everyone.

Having said that - I believe in creation and evolution.
End Quote

  See, the thing is that for all its pomp and bullsh@t, God is tremendously powerful in human affairs. Furthermore, if you strip away the religious accretions and examine the psychological and anthropological functions of gods, you'll find a number of real questions about existence and justice and self sublimated in the symbology. Just because you can't hold it in your hand doesn't mean it's not real. It's not real the way your a$$ is real, but real the way your "rights" are real; real the way your "self image" is real. Are you cool? Do you just think you are? Does it really matter? And so on and so forth.

  In the end part of it is that nothing exists in a vacuum for me; if I consider religion at all I am also aware of why. For myself, I see that certain issues pertaining to religions and belief in God complicate human progress. Certainly it began as a personal thing; I had to learn to resent God before I could abandon God, but the abandonment of the theistic assertion simply couldn't cut it. I'm fine with the idea of reality equaling Nihilism, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to make up some reason to enjoy my time in the Universe.

Quoting:
there are some historians who say the idea of god was created by kings as a way of controlling the masses. there are others who say the idea of god was created by people as a means to expalin things they can not understand (like fire or rain).
End Quote

The idea of God certainly came about as a means of explaining the unexplainable; the idea of religion is a means of controlling the masses - there is not a mass religion today that isn't used for manipulation, with Catholicism being perhaps the biggest single exponent.

Phil

Quoting:

The idea of God certainly came about as a means of explaining the unexplainable; the idea of religion is a means of controlling the masses - there is not a mass religion today that isn't used for manipulation, with Catholicism being perhaps the biggest single exponent.

Phil
End Quote

I'm not sure if Catholicism can be singled out anymore than any other major religion. Certainly all religions are manipulative even in what they allow people to think and Catholicism's history of bloodshed is unrivalled, but I'm unsure we can say that it is used any more for manipulation than any other.

Quoting:
PS TOP TEN REASONS WHY BEER IS BETTER THAN CHRISTIANITY:

10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer.

9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.

8. Beer has never caused a major war.

7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves.

6. When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.

5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured for his brand of Beer.

4. You don't have to wait more than 2000 years for a second Beer.

3. There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you.

2. You can prove you have a Beer.

1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop.

End Quote

LOL! That is excellently funny, man!

Quoting:
PS TOP TEN REASONS WHY BEER IS BETTER THAN CHRISTIANITY:

10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer.

9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.

8. Beer has never caused a major war.

7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves.

6. When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.

5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured for his brand of Beer.

4. You don't have to wait more than 2000 years for a second Beer.

3. There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you.

2. You can prove you have a Beer.

1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop.

End Quote

The same can be said for rum, although you can't drink as much of it and drive.  Come to think of it, it's time for another. ;)

Quoting:
PS TOP TEN REASONS WHY BEER IS BETTER THAN CHRISTIANITY:

10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer.

9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.

8. Beer has never caused a major war.

7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves.

6. When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.

5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured for his brand of Beer.

4. You don't have to wait more than 2000 years for a second Beer.

3. There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you.

2. You can prove you have a Beer.

1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop.

End Quote

Brilliant! Very funny. ;D :D

Quoting:
That said, I do still attend church, but not by choice.
End Quote

That is a shame, Junior. I was forced into a religion and it tried to model me into something I was not capable of living up to so I resented it in the end.

I still class myself as a religious cynic. That might be an oxymoron.  ;D

Quoting:


That is a shame, Junior. I was forced into a religion and it tried to model me into something I was not capable of living up to so I resented it in the end.

I still class myself as a religious cynic. That might be an oxymoron.  ;D
End Quote

I believe that religion is a very personal thing. No one can tell you what to believe or not to believe. I can only tell you what I believe. That is why I don't like orginized religions because they tell you WHAT to believe. But, I do know that some people need that structure-and that is fine too.



Cat

Quoting:
I believe that religion is a very personal thing. No one can tell you what to believe or not to believe. I can only tell you what I believe. That is why I don't like orginized religions because they tell you WHAT to believe. But, I do know that some people need that structure-and that is fine too.End Quote

Fine sentiments indeed, CatwomanofV.  :)

Quoting:


I believe that religion is a very personal thing. No one can tell you what to believe or not to believe. I can only tell you what I believe. That is why I don't like orginized religions because they tell you WHAT to believe. But, I do know that some people need that structure-and that is fine too.

End Quote

Organised religion needs to tell people what to believe, because that's the only way it can survive. There were religions before the modern belief structures, and they were just as real to their adherents as what God is to the Christian faith now. And yet, they faded away. Why? Because people started believing in something else. A religion only lasts as long as people follow it. The Olympian gods died because no one believed in them anymore. Gods can only exist while they have a faithful flock. With believers, they have no reason to exist.

Quoting:


I believe that religion is a very personal thing. No one can tell you what to believe or not to believe. I can only tell you what I believe. That is why I don't like orginized religions because they tell you WHAT to believe. But, I do know that some people need that structure-and that is fine too.



Cat
End Quote

I agree with Cat regarding religion, but I think religion must also confront science.  Creationists claim that God created all the animals of the earth in one act of creation.  But until recently (in Geological terms) there were no Siamese cats, no boarder collies, no merino sheep, no jersey cows, no angus bulls, - the list goes on almost indefinately.  Now I concede that these are not new "spicies", but they are the results of selective breeding, which is human manipulation of natural selection.  In short, it is evolution controlleed in our own interests.

As to your religious beliefs, as I posted elsewhere, your faith is beyond rational or factual argument.  Faith isn't suseptible to argument.  If it gives you comfort, great.  I would think, though, and I hope this isn't considered a slam, that you would try to reconcile your faith with science and reason.  As I understand it, Puritans considered it sacralige to try to determine God's will.  Maybe God's will is that we have inquiering minds because He wants us to "figure it all out".  Maybe when (if) we do, we will become Him/Her?  I know some will consider this herasy, and I apologize.  If not, then why do we have such massive brains?  Are they just for show?

Quoting:As to your religious beliefs, as I posted elsewhere, your faith is beyond rational or factual argument.  Faith isn't suseptible to argument.  If it gives you comfort, great.  I would think, though, and I hope this isn't considered a slam, that you would try to reconcile your faith with science and reason.  As I understand it, Puritans considered it sacralige to try to determine God's will.  Maybe God's will is that we have inquiering minds because He wants us to "figure it all out".  Maybe when (if) we do, we will become Him/Her?  I know some will consider this herasy, and I apologize.  If not, then why do we have such massive brains?  Are they just for show?
End Quote

I am very happy with the honesty shown on this thread. People are willing to go out on a limb to state what they truly believe - that is good. Don Carlos I extend this to you for sharing brave thoughts indeed.  ;)

I am willing to share an insecurity I have had with my faith. I was with the Jehovah's Witnesses from the age of six and they believe in something called Armageddon (a great battle, not the end of the world but the end of this current system).

What bothers me is they say that surviving Armageddon is a gift from God (backing it up with scripture) yet, as a Witness, you have to 'abide by the laws'. Essentially they are saying that even if you act like an angel, you have no guarantees of surviving. I feel this is a no win situation for believers.

Now I feel brave for mentioning this on the boards.  :)

Quoting:


I agree with Cat regarding religion, but I think religion must also confront science.  End Quote

This is great, except when certain religious organisations begin to claim that religion IS science, and that the Bible is completely factual. The Creation Science movement, for example, holds that the Earth is only 6000 years old, that Noah's flood was real (and not apocryphal, as is held by most Church leaders) and that the proof will be found atop Mt Ararat. Creation Science holds scientific tenents such as carbon dating, basic geology, astronomy and paleaontology  as untruths and lies, but has no proof of any of their claims apart from Bible quotes.
Absurd.

Quoting:


I am very happy with the honesty shown on this thread. People are willing to go out on a limb to state what they truly believe - that is good. Don Carlos I extend this to you for sharing brave thoughts indeed.  ;)

I am willing to share an insecurity I have had with my faith. I was with the Jehovah's Witnesses from the age of six and they believe in something called Armageddon (a great battle, not the end of the world but the end of this current system).

What bothers me is they say that surviving Armageddon is a gift from God (backing it up with scripture) yet, as a Witness, you have to 'abide by the laws'. Essentially they are saying that even if you act like an angel, you have no guarantees of surviving. I feel this is a no win situation for believers.

Now I feel brave for mentioning this on the boards.  :)
End Quote

Not being very familiar with your faith, and not liking to argue theology, all I can say is that I encourage you to use the brian that God gave you to analyse the world around you.  If that isn't what it is for, than why are we burdened with it?  Our lives would certainly be simpler if we could live like our cats or our dogs, conscious only of the present, without contemplation or notions of good and bad.  I will not pass judgement on the conclusions you draw - those are yours, and very personal - but the fact of your brain requires that you use it.  Otherwise, what is it for?  Explore your faith honestly - both emotionally and rationally - and draw your conclusions.  On this one, I'm affraid I can't offer any other advise.  Good luck.

Quoting:


This is great, except when certain religious organisations begin to claim that religion IS science, and that the Bible is completely factual. The Creation Science movement, for example, holds that the Earth is only 6000 years old, that Noah's flood was real (and not apocryphal, as is held by most Church leaders) and that the proof will be found atop Mt Ararat. Creation Science holds scientific tenents such as carbon dating, basic geology, astronomy and paleaontology  as untruths and lies, but has no proof of any of their claims apart from Bible quotes.
Absurd.
End Quote

Yeah, well, if you want to believe this than you have to totaly discount geology, biology, astronomy, physics, in fact ALL the historicall based natural sciences.  Might I suggest a book called Why People Believe Wierd Things by Michal Shermer (with an introduction by one of my favorite scientists, Stevel J Gould).  A very interesting (and in some ways "political" defense of sceptisism).  A good read.

Quoting:Not being very familiar with your faith, and not liking to argue theology, all I can say is that I encourage you to use the brian that God gave you to analyse the world around you.  If that isn't what it is for, than why are we burdened with it?  End Quote

LOL. Arguing theology is pointless, DC.

Thank you for your words of encouragement. I am an analytical person (perhaps too analytical at times) with a faith and it causes a conflict in my mind.

The term is called 'a crisis of conscience'. I put it in quotes because I didn't make it up. A book has been published under that name and I have flicked through it and found it very interesting. It talks about a mans struggle between believing what he thinks is right and what he wants to believe is right.

Quoting:


LOL. Arguing theology is pointless, DC.

Thank you for your words of encouragement. I am an analytical person (perhaps too analytical at times) with a faith and it causes a conflict in my mind.

The term is called 'a crisis of conscience'. I put it in quotes because I didn't make it up. A book has been published under that name and I have flicked through it and found it very interesting. It talks about a mans struggle between believing what he thinks is right and what he wants to believe is right.
End Quote

Thinking, as I understand it, is taking what I know, and believe to be factual, and  applying it to my actions and developing interpretations.  It is a process of applying rationalism to the world around me.  I would love to be able to believe, for example, that there is an afterlife.  I'd love to see my mother again, and that when I leave this earth some part of me will "go on" somewhere.  But all the evidence of the physical world in which we live suggests otherwise, so my reason, my intelligence, evaluating the evidence as I see it, mitigates against my desire to believe.  And therein lies the contradiction.  I want to be comforted with a belief in another dimension, but reason tells me that there is no evidence, no reason (in the other meaning) to hold such a belief.  So as a rationalist, I have to condemn myself the the view that, once dead, I will simply rot, and, as Joe Hill said, maybe nurish some flowers to bloom.  :'(  ?  ;D ?  ???

Quoting:
Genesis 1:1
End Quote

Amen to that....lebeiw(?) You and....dizzle....seem to be about the only edumiKated people here  ;)

I guess growing up in a small, Christian community in the Bible Belt makes it kinda weird listening to a bunch of evolutionists.  I mean ya just stick with yur good ol' Book and that's all you'll ever need.  

Hebrews 11:1&3 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Quoting:


Amen to that....lebeiw(?) You and....dizzle....seem to be about the only edumiKated people here  ;)

End Quote

That comment kind of irked me, saying that anyone who does not share the same belief with you is "uneducated", but I won't overreact. :-/

Quoting:
Sorry, I meant Biblically educated.  I didn't know someone would get so mad over a little joke.
End Quote

Sorry, I took it the wrong way, as if you were saying that non-believers were uneducated. My bad. ;)

Quoting:


Amen to that....lebeiw(?) You and....dizzle....seem to be about the only edumiKated people here  ;)

I guess growing up in a small, Christian community in the Bible Belt makes it kinda weird listening to a bunch of evolutionists.  I mean ya just stick with yur good ol' Book and that's all you'll ever need.  

Hebrews 11:1&3 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

End Quote

And here in lies the dispute.  You believe that the bible (and I assume you mean the King James Version" is the word of God.  I just can't accept that a British Monarch (1603-1625 - aka James 6st of Scotland) had the word of God in his ear as he rewrote the bible to serve his political interests.  Nor can I believe that ANYBODY'S "bible" is divinely inspired.  In the past, when I have written for publication, I asked for divine inspiration, and got nothing, written or published.  When I relied on my smarts, my analysis, my knowledge, I got published.  So, when I ask for God's inspiration, I get nothing.  When I don't I get published.  Whats that about?

Look, if you want to believe, believe.  Just don't disparage those of us who don't.  It is a pointless argument that can only lead to bitterness, which I think you will agree, is not the aim.  As I said above, if your beliefs lead you to positions on ISSUES similar to mine, than I care not how you come to them.  We can struggle together to achieve the results we both seek, although from different perspectives.

On a more scientific level, if you reject evolution, than how do explain the siamese cat, the merino sheep, the boarder collie etc?  They are all creatures of man made natutral selection, ie evolution in action.  We created them, through selective breeding, in other words, by manipulating evolution.

Quoting:
The best argument for God I have heard came from a Rene Decartes (I will paraphrase): "How can man, being imperfect, have such a perfect thought as God?
End Quote

I'd argue that a second reading of that one works the other way: if you look at Man's idea of God, it is far from perfect - conversely, it is full of all the foibles of Man him(her)self: jealousy, pettiness, annoyance at not getting his own way (I mean, he was so pissed off, he razed two whole cities).  And then Man decides to call this perfect... perverse would be closer, IMO.

An interesting thread in an atheism forum "Would God allow religion" gives another take on the same principle argument.

Phil

Quoting:
There's a fiction book I read years ago called "Flatworld", about a group of scientists who make contact with an alien culture who live on a two-dimensional planet. The 2D aliens have real problems understanding our 3D World. It's a bit like that for me trying to understand the multidimensional concepts of theoretical physics.
End Quote

I think you mean "Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions" by Edwin Abbott.. amazon have got it for £1.25 at the moment: a must-buy for anyone who hasn't got it already.

I know what you mean about trying to understand multidimensional concepts - I did a bit of research for my parody N-Dimensional Space, which was kind of confusing...

Flat
Like an angle in a triangle
A plane upon a plane
Euclidian geometry's
Not too hard to explain
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a path upon a sphere
Once you hit that third dimension
It all becomes less clear
Like a tiny 1-D superstring
That's infinitely small
It exists in ten dimensions,
Or is it really there at all?
These are problems that you face
When pondering n-dimensional space

Quoting:
He also mentioned Schroedinger's Cat (I believe it was something to do with the cat being in and out of a box at the same time).
End Quote

Schroedinger's idea was that we couldn't know whether the cat in the box was alive or dead without opening the box, so the putative cat was in a mid-way state between being alive and dead until the box was opened, at which point the cat resolved into either a live one or a dead one.

AFAIK, he never actually tried this with a real cat, he was trying to give a comprehensible example of what electron-wave/particle duality is like: that an electron can be thought of as either a wave, or a particle, but at the point where you look at it, it will behave as just the one.

Here endeth the physics lesson ;-)

Phil

Quoting:
Flat
Like an angle in a triangle
A plane upon a plane
Euclidian geometry's
Not too hard to explain
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a path upon a sphere
Once you hit that third dimension
It all becomes less clear
Like a tiny 1-D superstring
That's infinitely small
It exists in ten dimensions,
Or is it really there at all?
These are problems that you face
When pondering n-dimensional space

End Quote

8) philbo ... I like that a lot.

Was it really Dusty Springfield orginally? I've only ever heard the Noel Harrison version.

I like the idea of string theory 'cos studying resonant frequencies with loudspeakers & sand chambers was my favourite bit of O level physics. String theory gets into harmonics and stuff which I like at a simplistic level as I think of it as the music of the Universe. Is that corny or what?

Quoting:
I think of it as the music of the Universe. End Quote

But who is the conductor? Is it God? aha! Am I disappearing up my own fundament with this line of argument?

(which is beginning to sound like the conversations I had with my mates as 15 year old teenagers drunk on Strongbow and listening to The Dark Side Of The Moon).

Quoting:




Was it really Dusty Springfield orginally? I've only ever heard the Noel Harrison version.

End Quote

Thank you thank you Maddog.  I knew a male singer had done a version of this but couldn't remember who!  (it was a PBG thread a while back)

Quoting:
8) philbo ... I like that a lot.
End Quote

:-)  I aim to please... but did you vote on it? {$shameless plug mode on}

Quoting:
Was it really Dusty Springfield orginally? I've only ever heard the Noel Harrison version.
End Quote

Must admit I couldn't remember who did it originally when I wrote this... I think I looked at Royce's parody, and copied what she said :o

Phil

Quoting:

And here in lies the dispute.  You believe that the bible (and I assume you mean the King James Version" is the word of God.  I just can't accept that a British Monarch (1603-1625 - aka James 6st of Scotland) had the word of God in his ear as he rewrote the bible to serve his political interests.  Nor can I believe that ANYBODY'S "bible" is divinely inspired.  In the past, when I have written for publication, I asked for divine inspiration, and got nothing, written or published.  When I relied on my smarts, my analysis, my knowledge, I got published.  So, when I ask for God's inspiration, I get nothing.  When I don't I get published.  Whats that about?

Look, if you want to believe, believe.  Just don't disparage those of us who don't.  It is a pointless argument that can only lead to bitterness, which I think you will agree, is not the aim.  As I said above, if your beliefs lead you to positions on ISSUES similar to mine, than I care not how you come to them.  We can struggle together to achieve the results we both seek, although from different perspectives.

On a more scientific level, if you reject evolution, than how do explain the siamese cat, the merino sheep, the boarder collie etc?  They are all creatures of man made natutral selection, ie evolution in action.  We created them, through selective breeding, in other words, by manipulating evolution.
End Quote

Yes, I am a KJV reader all the way! But James Stuart didn't "rewrite" the Bible, he just had the Bible scholars of that time to translate it from authorized texts.
About your writing, why did you ask for God's inspiration? For His glory? or for your own? Perhaps the writing was not even inspired by God at all.  Just because you ask for something you want, doesn't mean it's in His will to give it to you.
Matthew 6:33 "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."


I have a question though. What do yall mean by "organized religion"?  Like the Southern Baptist convention? Or the Catholic church? Or Mormons? Or Jehovah's Witness?  Or did it just go right over my head?

Quoting:


(1)Yes, I am a KJV reader all the way! But James Stuart didn't "rewrite" the Bible, he just had the Bible scholars of that time to translate it from authorized texts.
(2)About your writing, why did you ask for God's inspiration? For His glory? or for your own? Perhaps the writing was not even inspired by God at all.  Just because you ask for something you want, doesn't mean it's in His will to give it to you.
Matthew 6:33 "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."


(3)I have a question though. What do yall mean by "organized religion"?  Like the Southern Baptist convention? Or the Catholic church? Or Mormons? Or Jehovah's Witness?  Or did it just go right over my head?
End Quote

(1) yes, and they were "translated" so as to serve his political interests, and to fortify his position.  There are other translations of the original hebrew and aramaic.  I'm no biblical scholar, and don't intend to become one (God is just too dull), but I know enough to say that there are significan differences between these translations.  There are also religious texts, like the "Lost Gosples and the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the KJV dosent touch on (it couldn't) but also purport to be "the word of God".  

(2) This was fascitious.  I never asked for, or wanted devine intervention in my work, which is totally secular.

(3) Organized religions are established churches.  You named a few.  They typically claim that if one follows their beliefs, one will reap great rewards in the afterlife (in this regard, Islam is VERY attractive - what, 17 virgins?  Hope they are all over 18 - although that many 18 year old vigins might be hard to find - and after they are no longer vigins, do they go to hell, or am I stuck with supporting them? - irreverence intended).  If you belong to a group that advocates a set of religious beliefs and demands adherence to them for membership, than you are part of an organized religion.

Quoting:
But, understandably, this thread has wandered far from the original topic, and no one has addressed my questions regarding domesticated animals.  I assume that the pro-evolution folks see the point, but I wonder why you creationists have avoided that querstion?
End Quote

Regarding getting Angus Bulls, Border Collies and the like, I call that cross-breeding not evolution.

I have not avoided the question deliberately, Carlos.

However, to support your argument I think of the ways animals 'develop' defence mechanisms like stings and poison to keep predators away.

I find it a little difficult to stomach the insinuation that animals gradually turn into other animals via evolution.

Quoting:


(3) Organized religions are established churches.  You named a few.  They typically claim that if one follows their beliefs, one will reap great rewards in the afterlife (in this regard, Islam is VERY attractive - what, 17 virgins?  Hope they are all over 18 - although that many 18 year old vigins might be hard to find - and after they are no longer vigins, do they go to hell, or am I stuck with supporting them? - irreverence intended).  If you belong to a group that advocates a set of religious beliefs and demands adherence to them for membership, than you are part of an organized religion.
End Quote

Ok, at first I thought that your term "organized religion" meant like a "chain" of churches (aka Baptist *convention*)
Whereas I belong to an Independent Baptist church

Quoting:


Regarding getting Angus Bulls, Border Collies and the like, I call that cross-breeding not evolution.

End Quote

You are right, it IS cross breeding, that is, we breeding the animals under our control to enhance the characteristics WE want them to display.  In doing so we are using the mechanisms of evolution to achieve our ends.  One could say that we were "playing God" with our domestic animals.  Evolutionary theory says that, in one way or another, the changing environment does that, without purpose and over a longer time, and leads to new spiecies (that is, creatures that cannot interbreed (for whatever reason) and produce viable offspring).  The whole idea of selective breeding is based on the theory of evolution and genetics.

Quoting:
There was something a physisict friend told me which is scary. He said there was evidence that the Universe is not expanding as fast as they thought. They said if the universe does not expand at a fast enough rate, the gravity at the center will cause it all to all come back in untill you have a mass so small and dense that it will explode, creating the universe again.

As for your question, I would like to think we are more than some random chance, that there is a reason to life.
End Quote

Which is scarier? A universe that goes through seasons of expansion and contraction, or one that unexplainably continues forever?

Quoting:

Which is scarier? A universe that goes through seasons of expansion and contraction, or one that unexplainably continues forever?
End Quote

Either way, none of our progeny into the 1000th generation will be around to see either result.  So expansion into cold oblivian or contraction into another big bang is kind of a moot question.  Evolution, on the other hand, is an on-going process.  Imagine smarter sharks or cockroaches (not likely), or more resistant viruses and bacteria (not just likely, but documented).

Quoting:
The thing is, the bible says that 'man was made in God's image'. We can only presume that this is literal. That's why some people have the vision of an old man sitting in the clouds.
End Quote

I think it's a mistake to accept anything in the Bible as being "literal". The Bible is a collection of writings that are thousands of years old, that have been written and re-written over the course of centuries. The spirit might be still there, but I doubt very much of it is as it was originally. The image of God as the shape of a man is inherently flawed; we now know that there are uncounted stars in the sky with uncounted planets. It would be naive of us to assume that God hasn't put life on some of them, and if He did, I'd assume that He'd have made a dominant species in His image there too. So does the dominant species on all life-bearing planets look like Man? If God made Man in His own image, they'd have to. Or have we misinterpreted "image"? No, because that was written before the idea of life on other planets was conceived. So now it needs to be re-interprested to mean that God made Man to look the way he does because God saw that form as best to do His work here on Earth.
Of course this is a purely theological point of view. I don't believe there is a God, so the point is moot to me.  

Quoting:
The image of God as the shape of a man is inherently flawed; we now know that there are uncounted stars in the sky with uncounted planets. It would be naive of us to assume that God hasn't put life on some of them, and if He did, I'd assume that He'd have made a dominant species in His image there too. So does the dominant species on all life-bearing planets look like Man? . . . I don't believe there is a God, so the point is moot to me.  
End Quote

Thanks for at least accepting other people's views, Goreripper.  :)

I was wondering whether the word 'image' could be interpreted in a personality kind of way rather than a literal physical one.

It is very difficult to talk about religion because it is all subjective. The person that strongly believes in their faith is unlikely to say it is false because of the fear that they could be wasting their time. Where I used to go, there have been people going to religious meetings for 10, 20, 30 (and in extreme cases) 40 or 50 years. Anybody tells them their religion is wrong and they will defend themselves, knowing that if they don't they have wasted those precious years of their lives on a pipe-dream.

Quoting:
Thanks for at least accepting other people's views, Goreripper.  :)
End Quote

NP. Accepting them I have no problems with. Having them forced down my throat, now, that's another thing. :)

Quoting:

I was wondering whether the word 'image' could be interpreted in a personality kind of way rather than a literal physical one.

End Quote

This is what I was trying to say, but of course I had to turn it into an essay. :)

Quoting:
NP. Accepting them I have no problems with. Having them forced down my throat, now, that's another thing. :)
End Quote

You'll have no problems there. I used to hate going on the ministry (door-knocking) because I felt I was intruding on people all the time.  :D

Quoting:


You'll have no problems there. I used to hate going on the ministry (door-knocking) because I felt I was intruding on people all the time.  :D
End Quote

Door-knocking is intruding. When I'm waltzing around in my underwear listening to Iron Maiden on a Thursday morning,  I don't want to be suddenly disturbed by someone trying to tell me about the Light of Christ on my doorstep.  :)

Quoting:
Door-knocking is intruding. When I'm waltzing around in my underwear listening to Iron Maiden on a Thursday morning,  I don't want to be suddenly disturbed by someone trying to tell me about the Light of Christ on my doorstep.  :)
End Quote

LOL. Understandable.

Quoting:


Door-knocking is intruding. When I'm waltzing around in my underwear listening to Iron Maiden on a Thursday morning,  I don't want to be suddenly disturbed by someone trying to tell me about the Light of Christ on my doorstep.  :)
End Quote

What an image. Thanks for sharing (I think). Is that anything like Tom Cruise in Risky Business?



Cat

Quoting:
What an image. Thanks for sharing (I think). Is that anything like Tom Cruise in Risky Business?
End Quote

Or Mrs Doubtfire . . . Without the bodysuit and the broom?  :D

Quoting:



What an image. Thanks for sharing (I think). Is that anything like Tom Cruise in Risky Business?



Cat
End Quote

Kind of. Except with my right foot up on the coffee table and some chest-beating. :D

Quoting:
Once, while carrying a case of beer to my parent's house, I was accosted by some holy rollers who stareted telling me that I was carrying the devil's brew, and should smash the bottles.  Since there was no deposit on them at that time, I invited them in, suggesting that we empty them first, while they explained their concerns.  They left in a huff.  GOOD RIDDENCE!
End Quote

Wow! I've heard of 'Holy Rollers'. Were they a group that specialised in snake handling? I remember feeling they were very extreme in their views to everything.

Though I say that, I was forced to throw away all my wrestling videos because they were bad (I couldn't sell them on because that would be passing on badness so to speak). I really regretted, but learned from that action that I have to be pragmatic about why I do things and not to do them purely to appease other people.

Quoting:

Though I say that, I was forced to throw away all my wrestling videos because they were bad End Quote

Why are they bad?

Quoting:
Why are they bad?
End Quote

They were bad in the eyes of my religion because, even though normal people view wrestling as harmless entertainment, they promoted violence.

Quoting:


Wow! I've heard of 'Holy Rollers'. Were they a group that specialised in snake handling? I remember feeling they were very extreme in their views to everything.

End Quote

They didn't claim to be  snake handlers, but they tried to give me a copy of The Watch Tower and other religious  tracts in which I had no interest.  They were very pushy and very obnoxious.

Quoting:
They didn't claim to be  snake handlers, but they tried to give me a copy of The Watch Tower and other religious  tracts in which I had no interest.  They were very pushy and very obnoxious.
End Quote

Ah! I've got my wires crossed, Carlos. There was a religion called The Holy Rollers but these aren't the people you dealt with according to the publication you recieved. The 'Watchtower' is a publication Jehovah's Witnesses read and like to give people to read. I am surprised they called your beer 'the devils brew' as most of the Witnesses I know love a drink! You have been unfortunate to be approached by the ones that are 'a little too precious'. Some of the more established members tend to get carried away, attempting to give you the negative hard sell.

Jehovah's Witnesses are, to some degree or other, decent people who are dealing with a quirky theology. Most are honest, hardworking people who take the time to 'attempt' to practice what they preach. The majority (including myself at one time) are not fond of interrupting other people's lifestyles - they just believe in what they are talking about. However, quite often Witnesses are stubborn and don't help themselves. Rain would not stop the ministry and there was one occasion I know of when Jehovah's Witnesses went about knocking doors on Christmas Day! I was just wondering at the time whether they were looking to get their heads kicked in.

I just thought I would offer some background knowledge.  :)

Quoting:
I do understand the conflicting interest. I understand that the Bible does say, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" (Matt. 28-19). But, I am not a Christian and don't want to be (been there, done that). I don't want someone to try to sell me their religion and I don't try to sell them mine. I think it is very intrusive. I do understand that JW want to share their beliefs but I think they can do it without going door-to-door. Have signs/bumper stickers "Ask me about..." or something like that. Set up tables at fairs or flea markets. That way, if someone IS interested, they can go and ask. But not trying to get rid of someone at the door as the family just sat down to eat, or is not even dressed yet. It is as bad as telemarketers.


Cat
End Quote

Totally agree.  When you bring the horse to water, and it tells you it's not thirsty, you can't make it drink.  And if you try, he just might give you a swify kick in the...

But back to creation "theory"?