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Subject: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: EthanM on 07/09/05 at 3:51 pm

I know there have been similar discussions on this board, but I don't think the issue of how much could be registered at once. I certainly can't afford to register everything (or even everything i consider good) if it had to be done individually, but all at once would be great. I have more questions to ask once this one is answered.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: Gonfunko on 07/10/05 at 6:40 pm

There's really no need to spend money to register them - anything created after 1989 is automatically copyrighted.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: Mistress Leola on 07/11/05 at 9:50 am


There's really no need to spend money to register them - anything created after 1989 is automatically copyrighted.


???  Hmm, I don't know about that.  A lot of experienced musicians I know have been wasting a lot of money if that's the case...

Anywhoo, you can register a whole set of lyrics at once, if you send them in one packet.  I'm sure the copyright office can give you the details.  I haven't bothered to do it yet, but I have friends who have. 

There's probably a website with the info...

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/11/05 at 11:39 am

"There's really no need to spend money to register them - anything created after 1989 is automatically copyrighted."

I strongly disagree with this statement.  While you always have ownership of what you create, the mandatory penalties for unauthorized use of a copyrighted work far outweigh the penalties for the unauthorized use of un-copyrighted work.  (I think the U.S. Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. Sections 101 et seq. cover this).  Besides, you don't have to prove it with copyright protection. 

It's $30 to copyright and the forms are found on www.copyright.gov or call (202) 707-3000.  Ethan, you might want to copyright what you consider good or stealworthy.

Take it from someone who was in this situation - it could mean the difference of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.  (I believe the cap is $150,000 per infringement; plus attorneys' fees, plus any profits made by the offender.)

bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: EthanM on 07/11/05 at 12:23 pm

if i was to copyright everything i considered to be good one song at a time i think it would cost about $3000 dollars... so do you know anything about a possible bulk deal... and how do parodies apply to the derivative works section of the copyright form?

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: Mistress Leola on 07/11/05 at 12:28 pm



if i was to copyright everything i considered to be good one song at a time i think it would cost about $3000 dollars... so do you know anything about a possible bulk deal...





...Anywhoo, you can register a whole set of lyrics at once, if you send them in one packet. ...

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/11/05 at 12:57 pm

I thought it was $30 per work, but I could be wrong.  Ethan, why don't you go to the website, research this and report back to us?

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: Mistress Leola on 07/11/05 at 1:00 pm



I thought it was $30 per work, but I could be wrong.



Even if it were, there's no reason you can't send a 150 page document called "The Collected Parodies of Bobbypags, Vol. I"

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: PRobinson on 07/11/05 at 1:33 pm


Even if it were, there's no reason you can't send a 150 page document called "The Collected Parodies of Bobbypags, Vol. I"

you, sir(or madam) are one clever S.O.B. (or D.O.B., as the case may be)...

pr  ;)

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/11/05 at 1:57 pm

It's hard to argue with that logic.  My attorney is on vacation but I just asked another attorney who works primarily in the copyright arena.  He said, if the copyright office allows a compilation to be regestered, then there wouldn't be any disadvantage as far as statuatory damages go; but he wasn't certain that musical works could be registered in bulk.  (Although, essentially, that's what a CD is, right? - a bunch of songs under one copyright.)  So, Ethan, why don't you take the $30 gamble and try it?  Let us know how it works out. 
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: Mistress Leola on 07/11/05 at 2:42 pm


you, sir(or madam) are one clever S.O.B. (or D.O.B., as the case may be)...

pr  ;)


Frugality is the mother of invention.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: agrimorfee on 07/11/05 at 2:58 pm

Isn't it still a legal copyright (though by no means the strongest in a court case) to simply label the published work "Copyright 2005, John Smith"? This was what I was told 10 years ago in college and what I still do today.

FOlks with copyrights, also bear in mind that a court will take a look at how much effort an author potentially would have done or did do to gain revenue from his published work in a copyright infringement case.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: Mistress Leola on 07/11/05 at 3:16 pm


Isn't it still a legal copyright (though by no means the strongest in a court case) to simply label the published work "Copyright 2005, John Smith"? This was what I was told 10 years ago in college and what I still do today.



I wouldn't think so -- what's to stop me from simply plagiarizing someone's parody and simply typing "Copyright 1980, Leo Jay" on it? 

In fact, you may be on shaky legal ground even claiming a 'copyright' -- isn't 'copyright' a specific legal designation reserved for works that have been officially granted a copyright by the designated office?  I may be off base here, but technically, you might be able to only say "copyright pending" until it's finalized... but admittedly, I'm speculating...

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/11/05 at 3:21 pm

Again, you own what you write.  However, if your work is copyrighted, you're entitled to attorneys' fees and there is a standard penalty per infringement - mandatory.  That's the law - you also don't have the burden of proof because you have a copyright - proof.

Regarding your second statement, I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Unauthorized use is unauthorized use.  (There might be a scale for the award - $750-$150,000.)

bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/11/05 at 3:30 pm

Well Leo, you just gave a reason why one should copyright.  Without copyright protection, you have to prove that the work is yours and at your expense.  Let's say an association took your work and claimed it as theirs.  They may already have an attorney on staff, which means it costs them nothing to defend themselves.  You might be someone with a modest income who would then have to hire a copyright attorney at $650 an hour to prove it's yours and then to negotiate a settlement. 
If it's copyrighted, you have the proof, hire the lawyer because the other side is paying for it in the long run. 
Don't know what putting a copyright claim on a work without it actually being copyrighted means - perhaps it's a deterrent from stealing.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: FYI on 07/11/05 at 4:53 pm

From the US Copyright Office website
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work.

Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic?
Registration is recommended for a number of reasons. Many choose to register their works because they wish to have the facts of their copyright on the public record and have a certificate of registration. Registered works may be eligible for statutory damages and attorney's fees in successful litigation.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/11/05 at 5:17 pm

Insurance for $30.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: debminty on 07/12/05 at 8:49 am

Have you guys thought of the good old Post Office? Send yourself a package of your songs and get a (what you call it in the US? - a Notary Public? a Justice Of The Peace? Anyway, a legal eagle person) to sign across the seal. Then mail it to yourself via registered mail and DON'T OPEN IT! If you need to prove that your song has been ripped off, the package can then be opened by a judge in court. That was recommended to me by someone who works for Australian Copyright. In its favour is the fact that you are protected. It's cheap. AND no one but you needs to know what's in the package. A lot of professional writers I know use that method.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/12/05 at 9:41 am

Really, the issue is the award and attorneys' fees.  The mailing example is in essence the same thing as posting on this site.  The bottom line is that if your work is copyrighted and subsequently used without your permission, your suit is already in a different playing field than if the work was not copyrighted. 
Trust me, I work for a copyright attorney, one of my parodies was used without my persmission - I still would have been better off in the end if it had been copyrighted at the time of the infringement(s).
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: deerange on 07/12/05 at 10:12 am

I have sent in a cd full of my original songs....I think I put 18 songs on it...and it does cost only $30.00 for the lot. It is cheap insurance. Ethan, whatever you do, don't send them in individually...that would be needless expense.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: EthanM on 07/12/05 at 10:14 am

what about the derivative work section of the copyright form. What kind of crediting of the original writer/artist(s), if any, would I have to include.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/12/05 at 10:25 am

I credited the person who owns the copyright for the original work - in most of my cases it was Paul Henning who owns the copyright for the "Ballad of Jed".

Then under 'added to work" - put: parody lyrics.

bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: EthanM on 07/12/05 at 10:29 am

Any idea how i could go about figuring out who owns the copyright to individual songs?

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: ChuckyG on 07/12/05 at 11:21 am

The song "Happy Birthday" was printed in a collection of works, and they certainly prevalied in court.  I'm pretty certain that it applies to any instance of a copyrighted work, so if someone steals one or twenty of your parodies in the same collection, it doesn't really matter. 

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: PRobinson on 07/12/05 at 11:22 am

This is in response to the posts BEFORE ChuckyG's - his is actually serious and to the actual point as opposed to speculation, which I felt free to toy with -  ::)

See, and this is why I just enjoy doing this stuff for the Helluvitt...no pressure, no lawyers, no courts, no $$$...hi-diddly-dee...etc., -- would I be ticked if someone stole my stuff and made a bunch of money off of it?  I would be AMAZED...would I be ticked if someone stole my stuff and made a virtual pittance off it?  Uh...depends how they used it...but it would probably be more fun to bust them at it than to have gone through the stress and disappointment of trying to market it and making a pittance myself.  But hey, just my own personal take on it...I DO admit to having a different point of view than most on this subject.

just my 2 centavos worth...   :D

PAR    8)

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/12/05 at 11:24 am

Yes.  I believe there is a search function within the copyright registration site.  (I think that's how I double-checked ownership of "Ballad of Jed" - several people credit "Flatt & Scruggs - that's always bothered me about this site that the credit is to the "performance", not the writer or who owns the copyright.   I've always tried to credit the writer.)

Ethan, I would take your best few songs - one that ultimately might be in danger of infringement and register it (them) outside of a group registration.  

bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/12/05 at 11:32 am

Paul - there were several infringements of my uncopyrighted parody - if the maximum is $150,000 per infringement - well, you do the math.  I can tell you my settlement was no where near even $150,000.
Take the insurance on the good ones.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: PRobinson on 07/12/05 at 12:33 pm


Paul - there were several infringements of my uncopyrighted parody - if the maximum is $150,000 per infringement - well, you do the math.  I can tell you my settlement was no where near even $150,000.
Take the insurance on the good ones.

Well, that's certainly good advice...I won't deny that...I've never really considered any commercial use of my stuff...I suppose if someone ELSE wanted to try and do something with it and that required no hassle on my part I wouldn't be opposed to getting paid...

...but I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting for that to happen...

BTW - I have (almost) all my parody drafts on my PC hard drive...I haven't paid attention to whether the date shown on the file gets updated when I work on it (probably does)...if I dated the draft works would that constitute some form of proof as well? I also usually do a "copy/paste" on the "Preview" copy of my work before I click to submit and then Paste it onto a new Word Doc and title it "Final Version" with the date and time submitted. It's been mostly for my own tracking so far.  I suppose the most it might do is possibly bolster a case, but I really don't know...asking more out of curiousity than anything else...since the topic is out here and being discussed it might help someone else, too...


Thanks, bpags...

PAR

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/12/05 at 1:26 pm

I hear ya - never wrote mine for anything other than personal enjoyment and the hopes that they might make a few others laugh.  And, it's a kick when something you write appears in other places, with credit - no problem.  In my case, I discovered that a parody I wrote was taken ownership by someone else, had a few words changed, was performed, the performance was recorded and then the song won an award at this performance.  That's a weird feeling - and that's why you want the insurance.

For something that is not copyrighted and not "published" (i.e. on your hard drive), and I'm no lawyer, I would bring out anything I could to prove it's mine (if the situation arose).  This is almost where the "mailing yourself" comes into play.  (however, my guess is that things you have written stand a much better chance of being ripped off).

Finally, you might be surprised at how many people, and the type of people who believe that anything on the Internet is fair use - that was the first defense brought up in my case - although batted down easily.  My point here is that if that's the mentality - bank on something of yours being lifted sometime, somewhere - when you least expect it (oh, sorry, that was candid camera, wasn't it?).
Later,
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: MooRocca on 07/12/05 at 8:00 pm

Bob,
Under which category would parody lyrics fall? 

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 9:09 am

Hi MooRocca - hey, by the way, I'm no expert at this - I can only tell you what I've done.  If you're asking where to put the line "parody lyrics" on the copryright form, it goes under the section "Added to work" - basically, you're acknowledging on the registration that the "OS" (amiright term) is an original work by someone else and that you're registering a derivative work - what have you added to the work? - parody lyrics.
Does that answer the question?  If not, ask again and I'll pull one of my registrations.
You, of course, should be registering your work - but you have a problem as so much of it is good.
Later.
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: ChuckyG on 07/13/05 at 9:32 am


Hi MooRocca - hey, by the way, I'm no expert at this - I can only tell you what I've done.  If you're asking where to put the line "parody lyrics" on the copryright form, it goes under the section "Added to work" - basically, you're acknowledging on the registration that the "OS" (amiright term) is an original work by someone else and that you're registering a derivative work - what have you added to the work? - parody lyrics.
Does that answer the question?  If not, ask again and I'll pull one of my registrations.
You, of course, should be registering your work - but you have a problem as so much of it is good.
Later.
bob


You should scan in a copy of one of your filled in applications and post it for people to see what it looks like (blanking out your personal info of course), I'm sure people would find that useful.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 9:34 am

I can do that - my ignorance but how do I upload it to the site.  I can scan and email to myself from the scanner, but then what do I do?
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: ChuckyG on 07/13/05 at 9:49 am


I can do that - my ignorance but how do I upload it to the site.  I can scan and email to myself from the scanner, but then what do I do?
bob


if the file is on your hard drive, click the "Additional Options" link when you're posting a message, and there's an Attach function.

I think someone has a detailed tutorial on the site somewhere, anyone know where that is?

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 10:07 am

Ok, I'll try that.  Don't bother looking for the "detailed report" - I'm not going to read up on how to do it.
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 10:22 am

Bob's attempt at posting copy of Copyright Registration form . . .

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 10:25 am

Hey, I think that worked!  Anyway, because I'm at work, I don't have the registered copy of the form.  This is a copy of what I submitted and it came back with a registered stamp (and no changes to what I filled out).  Generally, I've found it takes a little more than two months before you receive the "copyright granted" and a corresponding number -- much longer before the stuff actually makes it to the database on the gov's site.
Hope this helps.
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: MooRocca on 07/13/05 at 10:49 am


Hi MooRocca - hey, by the way, I'm no expert at this - I can only tell you what I've done.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: MooRocca on 07/13/05 at 10:51 am

Ahh...  Performing Arts -- that's what I needed to know!  Thank you for uploading the form, Bob!  :) 

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 11:10 am

Mel - wow - let me go downstairs and smoke a ciggy before I digest all of that - there's a lot there.  I'll read carefully, but you may want to explore that stolen work thing - infringement is infringement - by the way, my "theft" was by a media association.  Sounds like you're licensing the use of your work - no problem there.  If applicable to your situation, perhaps I'll send you the contract that was drawn up for a one time licensing that I granted - let me know if you think it might help (it was drawn up by my attorney who is a copyright lawyer.)
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 11:52 am

MooRocca:
Really?  I wasn't aware that religious orgs get exemptions from "fair use" priveleges - seems unconstitutional to me - but I'm a blue state liberal, so what do I know about this new theocracy we're living in?

Anyway, what prevents you from copyrighting and just not displaying the copyright when you sell your work for one time use? 

I hear you on the ignoring infrinements and the not going after people and risking "implied doman" sounds plausible, but the fact would remain that if a work is copyrighted, the owner should get to choose when they feel their work has been infringed.  (I'll check on this when my copyright attorney returns from vacation.)

Funny you say that about the photographer, when it happened to me, my sister started searching the web for unauthorized use of my stuff hoping for a finder's fee.  Also, the photogrpher is an excellent example of why one should copyright one's work - the suit is so much easier with protection, the fines are mandatory, your attorneys' fees would be paid - you're in the driver's seat.

On the professional writing side, I was a reporter for a newspaper several years ago.  Many times I'd be driving to work listening to the local news station and my gf would be amazed that there would be times the station would be reading a news story and I would finish the sentences - it was because they were reading my story verbatim - without credit, of course.  I had another situation where a rival paper took an obit I had written and printed it exactly as my paper did.  I called the other paper and asked to speak to the writer, told them I thought it was a great piece of writing - the person thanked me and told me how much work they did on it.  I was pissed - my managing editor fired off a letter to his counterpart and the person was fired - and rightly so.  My point is, theft of original work is everywhere.

Free Judith Miller,
bob

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: K1chyd on 07/13/05 at 1:50 pm

On the copyright bit of this discussion I’d like to bring up what I added to a previous one on these things:

There’s strength in numbers. AmIright is a public parody think tank institution. Any John Doe with his material on a single personal site in the dark alleys of the internet is more likely to be ”robbed” (by a thief out to make money from the theft) compared to anyone here publishing regularly and (let’s not forget) receiving votes and comments that goes to prove his/hers stuff have been acknowledged upon initial posting. I.e. witnesses!

I’m no expert on criminal behaviour but I think that it is far less likely that someone with such intent would steal a parody that appears on a clearly stated parody site like AmIright, with lots of visitors. And if the thief finds it somewhere else and aren’t smart enough to check for an original source... congrats, you and your lawyer then have two dumb a**es to go after for double compensation!

And all this goes to say that the more we comment on each others parodies and the more we highlight our really good stuff by entering it in forum competitions etc the more we help each other to protect our rights.

So if/when you have to bring someone to court, check to see who did comment on the parody in question and then have those of us flown in (on the dumb stealing shmuck’s expense) to witness on your behalf.

Not only would you win, not only would we get a paid for mini-gathering, but also there’s a nice little publicity story for you in the local press in such a meet-up.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 2:38 pm

Well K1chyd, I guess you didn't read my post.  That problem, parodies have been stolen by even media-related associations.  There are many people who think that the Internet is public domain - many intelligent people. 
In reality, our comments have nothing to do with preserving our rights.  You have rights the minute a work is created - the problem then becomes proving it.  Posting on the site becomes proof.  That being said, if a piece has been up there for six moths and has generated 20 comments, for example, it backs up your published proof.
Copyright the work and you won't have to worry about bringing someone into court, your award will be higher and your attorneys fees paid for.

You are correct though, failure to check ownership is not an excuse for copyright infringement.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: EthanM on 07/13/05 at 2:58 pm

I see how to register an individual work, but not as a group. And as i've said before, registering individually costs too much money - there is no way i could select few enough to count on one hand and I can't afford more than that.

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: K1chyd on 07/13/05 at 3:02 pm


Well K1chyd, I guess you didn't read my post.  That problem, parodies have been stolen by even media-related associations.


Oh, I read your post, and I especially liked the part where you phoned them and asked to speak to the writer.  ;D

Actually it was that morons stupid mistake to steal from another professional that I saw as a setup for my comment. Given the context of obits isn't fully compatible with parodies I'd still say it was a good example of why public stuff is "safer" than the John Doe site that after its first year still has only 370 hits on the counter (before taken away the extra hits from his mother's checking up on it every day).  :D

Subject: Re: registering copyrights for parodies

Written By: bobbypags on 07/13/05 at 5:08 pm

K - Sometimes, I don't think we really know where these things end up - my friends could forward my parody via email to someone with the author credit but if it continues to be forwarded who's to say that the credit doesn't disappear at some point (maybe someone else wants it to look they they did it, or any number of other reasons). 

MooRocca many great points - but one I didn't address was the "feeling" - when I discovered my parody was plagiarized - my gut hurt - I couldn't believe that anyone could do such a thing - hell, on one of my dog's parodies, I credited the person who gave me the idea - why not?  It wasn't my idea. 
But I must also admit to a little bit of flattery that professional writers would steal something of mine - of course I went immediately back to the anger stage.  It's a weird feeling. 

There are probably people stealing work from this site that we'll never know about.  But for $30, I'll take the insurance so that I don't have to worry about proving a case nor paying a $650 per hour lawyer.

Later,
bob 

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