Is it just me or do children of today (7-16) lack manners, proper communication skills and respect? Seriously, when asked a question most simply reply “HUH?” or “YA” like the adult they are talking to is one of their buddies! Had that been me growing up, a quick backhand to the mouth would have been enough to take that huh out! Unfortunately, rearing a child is so different now then it was when I was growing up. It was nothing back then for a parent to whoop their child in a parking lot or right in the grocery store as they acted up, but today I see parents give in, trying to soothe the child with what they want instead of demanding the respect the parent so rightly deserves. I also understand that many parent by “spare the rod, spoil the child” and in some cases it works out quite nicely, but in other cases we end up with irresponsible, ignorant and down right rude children.

Case(s) in point: I was at a bowling alley last weekend with my team, when a child of no more than 8 said to his mother “gimme a dollar for the vending machine“. The mother said no, that the child had been given enough money and since he spent it all, he will have to wait until she was done. This child then turned around, smacked his mother on the arse, called her a b!tch in front of everyone, and then took off screaming through the bowling alley!

Another child I was talking to seemed to be as polite as can be. She wore a cute little dress and had her hair in pigtails. I asked her if she liked her dress and she replied “HUH?” so I said “pardon me” and she said “HUH?” Seen as she is not my child, I didn’t try and correct it further, I simply asked the question again to which she said “Ya. DUH! I wouldn’t wear it if I didn’t like it!” Note: her mother was standing to the side and laughed at her daughter's response!

If either one of these children were mine, I would have scooped them up and taken them to the restroom so fast! Of course, because we are in todays society, CPS would be called in a heartbeat! So where should the blame really be laid? The parents? Society?  Or the Special Interest Group that feels a child needs no rearing whatsoever?

I blame George Bush. ;D

Seriously, it can be blamed on all three: Parents for not having the balls or time or whatever to rein their kids in, society and it's oh-so-fine examples of what a child should do, and the special interest groups for not minding their effin' business.

Jason is almost three and he knows what's up. I will not tolerate BS behavior in public (luckily, he's always been perfect in public) or at home. He knows how to be polite (he always tells our doorman "thank you" and makes babbly talk with him) because we taught him how...and he knows I'll pinch him if he's not. :D

I don't like smacking him. I've found that pinching his arm works better. That and "THE LOOK".

While I'm not above a swat on the butt in extreme cases, I don't agree that hitting teaches any beneficial lesson at all.  Sure, it worked for my parents, but I don't want my daughter to fear me, I want her to respect me (and those things are mutually exclusive).  Positive reinforcement has proven to be the most effective.  If you're consistent with your children about which behaviors are acceptable it becomes a part of their nature. 

I know 4 year olds who lack respect.  Their parents live in a bubble and think "Well, this is the time they need to be kids" as though manners are inherent.  These same parents say I'm too tough on my daughter but I don't care.  They are in for a rude awakening in later years when they realize they have no control over their own children. 

When young children misbehave it is because of the parents.  So you cite a couple of examples, there are just as many people who are raising their children as best they can to be unspoiled and responsible.  We all run into people who should never have been able to breed, but to focus on them is to ignore all the other kids in the bowling alley that were doing the right thing, of which I am sure there were many, many, more.

Great title, Tam!  ;)

We talked about this a bit earlier today, so you already know how I feel, but, in short here, I agree with everyone above, except for Jessica: I blame Canada!

Should we blame the government?
Or blame society?
Or should we blame the images on TV?
No! Blame Canada!

...
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus!!!!

Up until age 12 or so (at least?), parents have the most influence in their children's lives. Physical disclipline isn't always necessary to have a well behaved kid. Taking a 2x4 to your kid is clearly child abuse, but these groups that want to call SS on you for necessary discipline...  ::)

Ant

Up until age 12 or so (at least?), parents have the most influence in their children's lives. Physical disclipline isn't always necessary to have a well behaved kid. Taking a 2x4 to your kid is clearly child abuse, but these groups that want to call SS on you for necessary discipline...   ::)

Ant




That's what I'm talking about. Jason does not get spanked because 1. It doesn't work on him and 2. I doubt he feels it through his diaper. The pinches are few and far between, unless he's throwing a tantrum over something stupid and getting ready to throw his toys around. That's a big no-no in this place because the floors are wooden and they dent easily. Not that I would usually care, but the condo isn't ours, and I don't want to hear about it later. ::)

I'd take what you said more seriously if you hadn't obsessed over using .... eleventy million times. ::)

Is it really that hard to use proper grammar and punctuation?


... err, to whom was this adressed... *looks at your sig again*...  ;) ;D ...

I am the grammar and punctuation butcher: I've writen several songs about my unmastery of the finer points of the English language.

Ant

... err, to whom was this adressed... *looks at your sig again*...  ;) ;D ...

I am the grammar and punctuation butcher: I've writen several songs about my unmastery of the finer points of the English language.

Ant


The teenager. I felt I shouldn't quote it because it would just give me more of a headache.

I copied my sigline from IMDb. Blame them. ;D

To be serious, I'm not picking on him. I just don't see the need to use a lot of random dots in a paragraph like that. Is it a new trend or what?

The teenager. I felt I shouldn't quote it because it would just give me more of a headache.

I copied my sigline from IMDb. Blame them. ;D

To be serious, I'm not picking on him. I just don't see the need to use a lot of random dots in a paragraph like that. Is it a new trend or what?


I must have missed a post, because you have me completely confuzzled.  ???

Everyone has their own writing style. I know I routinely abuse the hell out of parentheses. I'm not sure about elipses, though I do know one guy who uses them quite often.

Blame the IMDb for sure! (great signature, though I'm at a loss as to what movie it is from).

(yeah, I ended that sentence with a prepostion, and enclosed this one in parentheses: I'm hopeless!)

Ant

I must have missed a post, because you have me completely confuzzled.  ???

Everyone has their own writing style. I know I routinely abuse the hell out of parentheses. I'm not sure about elipses, though I do know one guy who uses them quite often.

Blame the IMDb for sure! (great signature, though I'm at a loss as to what movie it is from).

(yeah, I ended that sentence with a prepostion, and enclosed this one in parentheses: I'm hopeless!)

Ant


Ah, he self deleted. And with that, I shall delete mine.

Children learn what they live.

You want the answer to that question?  Don't look at the way the kid behave.  Look at the way adults behave.  Look at the way adults treat one another.  See the paucity of honor, faith, trust, kindness, and civility in our public sphere. 

I'm not all misty-eyed for the old days.  Every era has its problems. 

I'm not sure the "time out" philosophy of parenting is doing the job; however, that's not the crux of the problem.  I think a lot of it has to do with the lack of family structure.  Illegitamcy and divorce are at record highs. 

From what I see, parents don't give kids reasons to either respect them or fear them.  Neither one constitutes love, but without both ingredients parent-child love is impossible.  Parent-to-child love comes through structure, consistency, trust, and a positive example.  Hugs and kisses are of course necessary, but the foregoing are the building blocks.  Mind you, when I say "fear" I mean only fear of consequences for misbehaving.  Starting with my parents' generation, parents got the idea that "love" meant permissiveness and indulgence; it became important to be your child's "friend."  Hey, what can I say, the liberals got this one wrong, that's all there is to it. 

Yes, I think the trash media has something to do with it, but for the most part it's a scapegoat. 

As for good conduct in school and good manners in public, it's better to be feared than to be loved.  Mouth off, get the paddle.  It's anathema to the progressive philosophy I've believed all my life, but it just might work!
;)

When young children misbehave it is because of the parents.  So you cite a couple of examples, there are just as many people who are raising their children as best they can to be unspoiled and responsible.  We all run into people who should never have been able to breed, but to focus on them is to ignore all the other kids in the bowling alley that were doing the right thing, of which I am sure there were many, many, more.

^WSS

I go out and see an overwhelming majority of well-behaved children - yes, there's the occasional bad-mouthed terror who is much more noticeable purely because they're making a lot of noise.  Complaining about it isn't a recent phenomenon: there's a wonderful quote (which I can't find in a couple of minutes' googling) about how dreadful the children of today are when compared to fifty years ago.. the quote dates from the 16th century.  There are similar "isn't society falling to pieces" quotes from the Victorians, too.. and I wouldn't mind betting the same is true of almost every era in human history.

Even though I believe it is over-reported, it happens, and I do think it's a shame for both the parents and the children when a child is incapable of behaving well - it's going to screw up their life chances.  Sigh.

One time when I was downtown, some kid politely asked me for the time, but after I gave it to him, he told me to go f*ck myself, which is actually tame compared to some of the other things I've heard and seen kids do

One time when I was downtown, some kid politely asked me for the time, but after I gave it to him, he told me to go f*ck myself, which is actually tame compared to some of the other things I've heard and seen kids do


what the heck was the purpose for that?  ::) People can be so rude.

Most parents are afraid to discipline kids for fear of being considered abusive parents.  My sister lets her kids hit her.  Parents have it tough these days.

I know I am a great one to talk about this-not having kids myself but parents really need to start when the kids start crawling. I have seen how my step-daughter handles her daughter and I am in total awe. At the age of 2, Bailey was throwing away her diaper because that was "her job" and she was putting her toys away by herself. My step-daughter didn't coddle to her at any time. When Bailey does something wrong, my step-daughter talks to her very calmly-never raises her voice, and the big thing is that she is consistent. She doesn't allow Bailey to walk all over her. Bailey is now 4 and is very polite, and well mannered. Yeah, she has her moments when she is tired or just having a bad day, but that is normal.



Cat

Most parents are afraid to discipline kids for fear of being considered abusive parents.  My sister lets her kids hit her.  Parents have it tough these days.
That's seems like such a cop-out to me.  IMO anyone with that attitude has lost the whole plot of "parenting".  And your sister's children will probably grow up unable to respect people (especially authority figures) - what a shame. :(

That's seems like such a cop-out to me.  IMO anyone with that attitude has lost the whole plot of "parenting".  And your sister's children will probably grow up unable to respect people (especially authority figures) - what a shame. :(


I suppose you don't realize how easy it is to call a child protective service and have a kid taken away from their parent?  As for my Sister's kids, they're not as bad as they could be.  They spend a lot of time with their Grandparents.  Oh, and they do respect and are polite to most people.

I suppose you don't realize how easy it is to call a child protective service and have a kid taken away from their parent?  As for my Sister's kids, they're not as bad as they could be.  They spend a lot of time with their Grandparents.  Oh, and they do respect and are polite to most people.
Actually I do, my mother works in fostercare placement and you'd be shocked to know what it takes...  As for your sister's kids, it's great that they're respectful of most people, except their mother  ::)

Actually I do, my mother works in fostercare placement and you'd be shocked to know what it takes...  As for your sister's kids, it's great that they're respectful of most people, except their mother  ::)


We've got an epidemic of "revenge calls" here.  Kind of like "if I can't have my kids, you can't either" petty yet very harsh.  Yes well, at least they have their grandparents.

That's seems like such a cop-out to me.  IMO anyone with that attitude has lost the whole plot of "parenting".  And your sister's children will probably grow up unable to respect people (especially authority figures) - what a shame. :(


I agree.  A lot of the times people who have lost control of their children blame not being able to hit them or being afraid of social services, but they are also resistant to asking for help and/or information on how to discipline the child without hitting, yelling, or becoming punching bag for the child.  Has Nanny 911 not taught them anything?  I do not say that sarcastically, I think a lot of people could learn a lot from that show.

I agree.  A lot of the times people who have lost control of their children blame not being able to hit them or being afraid of social services, but they are also resistant to asking for help and/or information on how to discipline the child without hitting, yelling, or becoming punching bag for the child.  Has Nanny 911 not taught them anything?  I do not say that sarcastically, I think a lot of people could learn a lot from that show.


I love that show. They have some great tips, but you do wonder how many of the families "fall off the wagon" after they're gone.

I love that show. They have some great tips, but you do wonder how many of the families "fall off the wagon" after they're gone.


I would bet they all do, and the parents all seem to be one doorstep away from divorce making things worse for all involved.

I agree.  A lot of the times people who have lost control of their children blame not being able to hit them or being afraid of social services, but they are also resistant to asking for help and/or information on how to discipline the child without hitting, yelling, or becoming punching bag for the child.  Has Nanny 911 not taught them anything?  I do not say that sarcastically, I think a lot of people could learn a lot from that show.
I've never watched Nanny 911, but I think with children, you should take all the advice you can get.  Why is it one extreme or the other; either you're hitting them or they're hitting you?  That's very frightening.

Also, I don't know what state you live in Reynolds 1863, but they don't just march into a house and take the children because someone makes a phonecall.  You are allowed to spank your child, it's not against the law.  I don't know why people are so fearful of that, or worse, would use that as an excuse to not do your job as a parent. 

As for the Grandparents of your sister's children:  it's nice that they have somewhere else to go but the damage is already done as far as I'm concerned. 

I live in PA and every Counties "Children And Youth" is run different.  In the county that I just move from it has been known for quite some time that the children's protective service was getting kickbacks from adoption agencies.  They were targeting single white mothers with children under the age of 5.  Perhaps were you're from the system is not so corrupt.

As for as you're opinion of the damage you think has already been done.  I'm going to choose to let that one go, because you don't know them.

I live in PA and every Counties "Children And Youth" is run different.  In the county that I just move from it has been known for quite some time that the children's protective service was getting kickbacks from adoption agencies.  They were targeting single white mothers with children under the age of 5.  Perhaps were you're from the system is not so corrupt.

As for as you're opinion of the damage you think has already been done.  I'm going to choose to let that one go, because you don't know them.
Are you telling me that there were innocent women being set up in order to give up their children?    While I don't know the laws of PA, I don't know any state where it's lawful for Child Protective Services to take a child from a home and put them up for adoption.  Most parents (even the horrible ones) don't give up their children, they are put into foster care and become a ward of the state.  That is generally seen as a temporary situation where parents are regularly evaluated to determine if living conditions have improved enough for the child to return to the home.

As for your sister's children, I'm sorry I've offended you and from now on I'll  :-X

I've tried all sorts of discipline with Vaughn, and I have found that smacking/spanking does not work for him. He just doesn't care at all. I have found that timeouts work and taking away privileges of his. Also, if we are out in public...and he is misbehaving and I start counting....he had better shape up by the time I reach 5, or else!! ;D :D

I'd forgotten Maddox' take on discipline. Obviosuly it's not meant to be taken seriously, but he does make some good points.

*warning, some foul language*

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat

Ant

Sometimes it seems a shame that there is no IQ minimum necessary for fertility/breeding.

Sometimes it seems a shame that there is no IQ minimum necessary for fertility/breeding.


Oh of course,and only good looking people too while you're at it ::)

With kids,like with everything else in life,you need a lot of love and a little common sense,don't let em misbehave too badly but also don't expect 'em to be perfect little angels.

Oh of course,and only good looking people too while you're at it ::)

With kids,like with everything else in life,you need a lot of love and a little common sense,don't let em misbehave too badly but also don't expect 'em to be perfect little angels.


Yeah, I'm glad the boy looks more like Jess to be honest :D :D :D

Kids need love and a bit of parental vigilance in this day and age to keep them occupied and out of trouble.

I've never liked the fact that people are supposed to respect others just because they are older. I'm sure many adults say "Yeah," or "Huh" to kids, so I don't see why it can't be the other way around. If they don't mean offense, then none should be taken.

However, the thing about the kid spanking his mom isn't good.

Sometimes it seems a shame that there is no IQ minimum necessary for fertility/breeding.

I don't think it's IQ-dependent... there's a lot of academically-brilliant people who would make (and have made) lousy parents, and vice versa.

Where I think things have changed a lot in the last 50 years or so is that parents these days (in us "civilised" western nations) are a lot more estranged from their own parents by the time they start having children: a much more restricted "extended family" means that the experience of child-rearing simply isn't passed on within the family any more.  New parents generally simply don't know what the good techniques are, hence the popularity on a massive scale of books on the subject.  Problem is, these books are often contradictory as what works for one parent or child doesn't always work for another, also they rarely give a fallback if plan A doesn't work.

TBH, I've found that the biggest single thing to learn has been when to ignore & when to come in with a firm hand.  That only really comes from experience, but you can learn from other people's experiences.

The other major shame is that hardly anybody has any concept of how much your life changes when you have children until it happens.  Some people simply can't get over the culture shock.

The other major shame is that hardly anybody has any concept of how much your life changes when you have children until it happens.  Some people simply can't get over the culture shock.



I may get jumped on for this, but I have worked in a womens world, now I work in a mans world(construction) and it seems to me that, for some reason, fathers in general are confused and/or just plain foolish.  It is more likely that a man will see his worth to the family in $$ as opposed to time. It is more likely that a mother will become frustrated with a father who works overtime, then complains that he is being asked to spend time with the kids when he is so tired from working. 

I may get jumped on for this, but I have worked in a womens world, now I work in a mans world(construction) and it seems to me that, for some reason, fathers in general are confused and/or just plain foolish.  It is more likely that a man will see his worth to the family in $$ as opposed to time. It is more likely that a mother will become frustrated with a father who works overtime, then complains that he is being asked to spend time with the kids when he is so tired from working. 

You certainly won't get jumped on by me for that: there's a lot of truth in the father who sees himself working excessively hard "to provide for his family", forgetting that his family may well be better served with more time input from him and a bit less cash.

It may well seem foolish (and a bit "Cat's in the Cradle") from here, looking back, but it doesn't always seem that way, and financial pressures *are* nearly always greater with young children around.

You certainly won't get jumped on by me for that: there's a lot of truth in the father who sees himself working excessively hard "to provide for his family", forgetting that his family may well be better served with more time input from him and a bit less cash.

It may well seem foolish (and a bit "Cat's in the Cradle") from here, looking back, but it doesn't always seem that way, and financial pressures *are* nearly always greater with young children around.



A big problem I see in my area(construction) is that a lot of the families have bought into the gotta have.  This applies alot to the moms, too.  It goes beyond the basics of home, food, clothing, transportation.  Gotta have the bigger(if not biggest) house, gotta have Gucci, gotta have Lexus(for everyone) gotta have the long bed with dualies, gotta go to first class.  So there are financial pressures that are brought about by outside sources(the economy), and there are financial pressures that are just greed, pride, and poor planning, and lack of consumer education.  Way back in the olden days females took home economics, I wonder do they still teach it, and do they make the males take it, too.

<rueful smile>

Where I come in that category (having never really been into the whole "gotta have" malarkey) is the forward planning that works out that I can afford to send my child to public (what you'd call "private") school... then not rethinking the policy until the fourth child's being paid for...  trying to give all the children an equal shot, by which time it's costing megabucks.

I don't think it's IQ-dependent... there's a lot of academically-brilliant people who would make (and have made) lousy parents, and vice versa.

Where I think things have changed a lot in the last 50 years or so is that parents these days (in us "civilised" western nations) are a lot more estranged from their own parents by the time they start having children: a much more restricted "extended family" means that the experience of child-rearing simply isn't passed on within the family any more.  New parents generally simply don't know what the good techniques are, hence the popularity on a massive scale of books on the subject.  Problem is, these books are often contradictory as what works for one parent or child doesn't always work for another, also they rarely give a fallback if plan A doesn't work.

TBH, I've found that the biggest single thing to learn has been when to ignore & when to come in with a firm hand.  That only really comes from experience, but you can learn from other people's experiences.

The other major shame is that hardly anybody has any concept of how much your life changes when you have children until it happens.  Some people simply can't get over the culture shock.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was lucky in the sense that my family is very close, so when I had Jason and was a bit confuzzled about things, I knew I could turn to my mom, my grandmothers, my aunts, etc. and they would have good advice. I have always been an advocate of not reading the parenting books because they're full of crap (not feeding the baby solids until they're such and such age....hell, I had to give Jason rice cereal when he was three months old because he was a pig). I also had a bit of disciplining experience from when I had to watch three obnoxious little boys. Their mom was great and had a great method of disciplining them, but they still had their moments.


A big problem I see in my area(construction) is that a lot of the families have bought into the gotta have.  This applies alot to the moms, too.  It goes beyond the basics of home, food, clothing, transportation.  Gotta have the bigger(if not biggest) house, gotta have Gucci, gotta have Lexus(for everyone) gotta have the long bed with dualies, gotta go to first class.  So there are financial pressures that are brought about by outside sources(the economy), and there are financial pressures that are just greed, pride, and poor planning, and lack of consumer education.  Way back in the olden days females took home economics, I wonder do they still teach it, and do they make the males take it, too.


I have never figured out why people need a $500 handbag made out of a dead cow's skin. Hell, I'm happy if I get to buy myself a cheapie tshirt from Kmart once in awhile. We have the basic necessities, and if we have extra money, we splurge and get something nice (a DVD usually, or take out food). I have to budget our money down to the last penny, but we make it work, without the gas guzzling SUV, without name brand shizz, without a million dollars worth of electronics. I don't know why people can't see the greatness in just having the simplest things in life.

<rueful smile>

Where I come in that category (having never really been into the whole "gotta have" malarkey) is the forward planning that works out that I can afford to send my child to public (what you'd call "private") school... then not rethinking the policy until the fourth child's being paid for...  trying to give all the children an equal shot, by which time it's costing megabucks.


ouch.. that is a dilemma.  Once you give the best to some you have to do your best to follow through with all.  Of course, if in a weak moment the younger ones say, "I wish I could go to private school" do not hesitate a milisecond to take them up on it.   :D

<rueful smile>

Where I come in that category (having never really been into the whole "gotta have" malarkey) is the forward planning that works out that I can afford to send my child to public (what you'd call "private") school... then not rethinking the policy until the fourth child's being paid for...  trying to give all the children an equal shot, by which time it's costing megabucks.
I can't think of a better thing to struggle to give them, though.  At least it's not something wasteful like cell phone bills and the like.

ouch.. that is a dilemma.  Once you give the best to some you have to do your best to follow through with all.  Of course, if in a weak moment the younger ones say, "I wish I could go to private school" do not hesitate a milisecond to take them up on it.  :D

The decision was pretty much taken out of our hands: after takeovers and management changes, I could no longer stand working at the company, so I quit.  Three out of four children are at (very good) state schools now, the last is being educated at home.  A huge difference in money, in travel (1 walk to school rather than 30 miles of school run) and lifestyle in general is a balance against the excellent educational environment they had.  And a father who's around rather a lot (especially as at the moment I have a contract that means I'm working from home).  Swings and roundabouts...


I can't think of a better thing to struggle to give them, though.  At least it's not something wasteful like cell phone bills and the like.

I often wonder whether it was worth it: I think it works out as being best part of £150k that's been spent on their education.  And the elder two have their own cellphones, which they have to find the money for themselves :)

I may get jumped on for this, but I have worked in a womens world, now I work in a mans world(construction) and it seems to me that, for some reason, fathers in general are confused and/or just plain foolish.  It is more likely that a man will see his worth to the family in $$ as opposed to time. It is more likely that a mother will become frustrated with a father who works overtime, then complains that he is being asked to spend time with the kids when he is so tired from working. 



You certainly won't get jumped on by me for that: there's a lot of truth in the father who sees himself working excessively hard "to provide for his family", forgetting that his family may well be better served with more time input from him and a bit less cash.

It may well seem foolish (and a bit "Cat's in the Cradle") from here, looking back, but it doesn't always seem that way, and financial pressures *are* nearly always greater with young children around.



Carlos told me a story about when he was a boy (about 3). His father worked as a chef at an up-scale restaurant. Carlos was upset because his daddy had to work nights and he never saw him. His father took this to heart, quit his job and went to work in his cousin's foundry-making less $$.



Cat

Carlos told me a story about when he was a boy (about 3). His father worked as a chef at an up-scale restaurant. Carlos was upset because his daddy had to work nights and he never saw him. His father took this to heart, quit his job and went to work in his cousin's foundry-making less $$.



Cat


The result seems to be his father did well enough to take care of his family and, if Carlos is an example of the tribe, raise some good kids.  I'd say it was worth it, I'm sure Carlos and his dad do to  ;)



The decision was pretty much taken out of our hands: after takeovers and management changes, I could no longer stand working at the company, so I quit.  Three out of four children are at (very good) state schools now, the last is being educated at home.  A huge difference in money, in travel (1 walk to school rather than 30 miles of school run) and lifestyle in general is a balance against the excellent educational environment they had.  And a father who's around rather a lot (especially as at the moment I have a contract that means I'm working from home).  Swings and roundabouts...
I often wonder whether it was worth it: I think it works out as being best part of £150k that's been spent on their education.  And the elder two have their own cellphones, which they have to find the money for themselves :)


The thing is, you can get a great education from state schools.  Just as with most things you will get out what you put in.

Okay. I know of a case where the parents disciplined there son properly.  Did everything a parent should do.  They were basically good parents.  Years later their son killed 5 Amish girls and wounded 5 others.  I think that discipline or lack of is only part of raising a child.

Okay. I know of a case where the parents disciplined there son properly.  Did everything a parent should do.  They were basically good parents.  Years later their son killed 5 Amish girls and wounded 5 others.  I think that discipline or lack of is only part of raising a child.
It's obvious that this man was mentally ill and I don't think child rearing played a big part in this unless he was severly abused. 

It's obvious that this man was mentally ill and I don't think child rearing played a big part in this unless he was severly abused. 


He had no history of mental illness nor was he abused.  His parents are still trying to figure out what THEY did wrong.

He had no history of mental illness nor was he abused.  His parents are still trying to figure out what THEY did wrong.
History or not, this man was OBVIOUSLY mentally ill, wouldn't you at least agree to that? 

History or not, this man was OBVIOUSLY mentally ill, wouldn't you at least agree to that? 


Actually he left a note before he did the killings.  He claimed that he had molested his nieces and he blamed God for the death of his daughter.  The nieces said he never molested them.  We still don't know exactly why he did it.  Coincidentally you do know who I'm talking about . . . don't you?  Yes, I knew him and his parents. 

^ Sounds like he went off the deep end, which would translate to "obviously mentally ill".

^ Sounds like he went off the deep end, which would translate to "obviously mentally ill".


Right, but no one had a clue.  Back to the original topic.  Even perfect parenting with discipline and every educational advantages he ends up being a murderer.  To make a subject like this a black and white issue is not the way to go about it.

Right, but no one had a clue.  Back to the original topic.  Even perfect parenting with discipline and every educational advantages he ends up being a murderer.  To make a subject like this a black and white issue is not the way to go about it.
Bringing up the actions of someone who is obviously mentally ill only confuses the issue and doesn't really factor in unless you wanted to make a case for spanking a child (to the extent of being abused and becoming an abuser/killer, etc.).  Back to the topic however, of course it isn't a black and white issue.  Studies do show however, that spanking is not as effective as taking away priveleges.

One time when I was downtown, some kid politely asked me for the time, but after I gave it to him, he told me to go f*ck myself
Ah, it's the Cheney boy!

With all due respect, I think blanket statements are extremely offensive, no matter what it's referring to. Especially if it's trying to lump an entire group into one category. I can see saying a particular kid is bad, but to generalize every other person of that same age, just based on what a few of them do, is inaccurate.

This whole "kids are so much worse these days" argument is nothing new and has been said forever. Just look at Tipper Gore and the rest of the council trying to ban rock music if you think people weren't saying the same things about all the problems of society when the 1980s were actually the present. There's both rude and nice kids in the world and that's one thing which will probably never change. The bad ones just make the good ones look guilty by association. Don't get me wrong, I've seen my share of troublemakers, but the problem is with those individuals, not all people in general who happened to have been born in the same year. There's a million reasons something can happen and no one knows what led up to it, in fairness. Maybe some just weren't/aren't parented right to begin with if they'd say or do a certain thing? You can't just look at one event and conclude blanket answers. On the surface it might make sense that some kid is misbehaving and needs to have the law laid down, but it's like how did he get there in the first place? To solve any problem, the key is looking deeper and being able to look at it from other people's shoes. When people's gut reflex answer to punk or brat kids is to use corporal punishment, I think it's based out of good intentions of wanting them to behave. I do understand why people feel this way, so it's not that which I take issue with. It's the way it's delivered that's wrong.

Just personally speaking, I'd NEVER put a hand on my kids if/when I have them, no matter what they did (although I hope that someday I'd be the kind of dad no kid would want to rebel against in the first place). Taking away privledges, grounding them without entertainment, or other kinds of humane discipline is one thing, but I'd never want someone I loved to be afraid of their physical safety because of me.

One important thing to take into consideration is that not everyone processes or handles things the same way. Maybe that'll eventually put a stop to this whole "well I was whipped and belted until 3 in the morning if I even tied my shoes too slow and I turned out fine" argument. No offense, but that got old a long time ago. Plus, even if there are occasions where it does make a light bulb go off in some kid's head to where it inspires them to turn their behavior around and do things differently, that certainly doesn't mean it's a blanket example you want to use for everyone. That's why that kind of mindset is dangerous. What works for one person won't necesarilly have the same effect on another.

Yeah, before anyone brings it up...even though I was pretty good, I occasionally had my misbehaving moments (then again, what kid didn't?) and I got spanked a little bit. Nothing major, but I was for a few things. While it didn't have a negative longterm effect on me or anything, who's to say it might not emotionally scar one kid to death or make another one rebel out of defiance and anger later on, for example. Just taking the time to explain the consequences of their actions in a calm manner, and reasonably punishing them solves problems like these much better. Violence isn't a necesarry, appropriate answer.

What makes issues like this difficult seems to be exactly what I'm talking about. There's no easy answer and it varies by person, so it's one of those things no one ever fully agrees on. Everyone wants an answer, so I can understand that to a point. Just as with anything else, we all kinda use our own lives to base our viewpoints off of, so it may not always come off as a totally accurate representation of the entire population. That's where personal bias can come from, albeit unintentionally. To use another example I've often talked about...I've been a fan of music my whole life, so I personally at first get totally bewildered when I hear someone go "well I was only 11 then, I didn't really care about it", but then I have to remind myself they didn't live my life of being exposed to Huey Lewis when I was 3, lol.


P.S. Speaking of the '80s and the Tipper Gore thing earlier....in one of the PMRC debates with Frank Zappa, he said something to the effect of "Censoring or banning albums is like treating dandruff by decapitation." I thought that was an excellent quote which relates to this subject pretty well too. ;)

P.S. Speaking of the '80s and the Tipper Gore thing earlier....in one of the PMRC debates with Frank Zappa, he said something to the effect of "Censoring or banning albums is like treating dandruff by decapitation." I thought that was an excellent quote which relates to this. ;)

Well, it would prevent dandruff... and headaches :)

Zappa was right about that, as he was about many things.  D'you think he'd get anywhere as an independent presidential candidate?

Well when I was at school (throughout the 80s and in 2 different countries) we had canings and rulers to the hand... no-one was emotionally scarred, we still had fun at school but we knew our limits. Sure we tested them at times and we paid the price. Similarly at home - if we went too far we got the "feather duster"... haha. Once again, as long as it's within reason (ie not excessive) - smacking children is fine. We're getting too soft with each decade and we're paying the price with insolent kids hanging around street corners and ruling the neighbourhoods.

^I think the key here is balance (which is pretty much true with anything, really). I didn't say don't discipline, I'm saying there's no reason to use violence to do so. That doesn't solve anything.

P.S. I'm sorry, but corporal punishment in school gives me this image of a mean old lady teacher c. 1940 beating on kids desks with a ruler if they weren't being quiet.

Trust me, lecturing some children or giving them a talking to is useless. If that happened to us as kids we'd be thinking "suckers" and just go out and do worse. Kids test their limits - it's human nature.

And give me the juvenile crime rate of the 1940s any day.

Trust me, lecturing some children or giving them a talking to is useless. If that happened to us as kids we'd be thinking "suckers" and just go out and do worse. Kids test their limits - it's human nature.

And give me the juvenile crime rate of the 1940s any day.


That's why you do it when they're 3 or 4...the first time they misbehave. Not suddenly when they're 12.

Back when any time was actually the present, people weren't talking about how perfect it was. I'll bet you a million bucks that back in the actual 1940s, the older folks were saying, "Oh these crazy youngsters, we weren't out driving cars on fancy dates and listening to big band music when we were their age. We actually went out and worked hard in the fields all day..." and on and on and on.

Back when any time was actually the present, people weren't talking about how perfect it was. I'll bet you a million bucks that back in the actual 1940s, the older folks were saying, "Oh these crazy youngsters, we weren't out driving cars on fancy dates and listening to big band music when we were their age. We actually went out and worked hard in the fields all day..." and on and on and on.


I do agree with you but don't you think it's now gone way out of hand. I mean the crime rate for kids might be the same as in the 80s but it's the types of crimes is what I'm getting at and also how much younger they're getting. I can only speak for the UK though. Things over here are getting ridiculously out of hand - urban areas and the suburbs. Those "crazy kids" may have been teenagers in the 60s and 70s, but in the here and now they're as young as 7 and 8. I also feel the breakdown in the family unit is partially to blame.

Ah, it's the Cheney boy!


My guess was Jebby Bush, that no good punk. :P

P.S. I'm sorry, but corporal punishment in school gives me this image of a mean old lady teacher c. 1940 beating on kids desks with a ruler if they weren't being quiet.




For some reason people think that letting teachers smack pupils is a good thing.  Clueless.  Having the preacher "talk" to young boys in the vestry was thought of as a good thing, too.  Teachers are part of the general population and you get as many dishonorable ones as honorable.  I was one of the few minority children in an all white school and I had some teachers who would have found reasons to smack me around just because of the color of my skin.  As it was they had to try and make do with verbal slights.  Unfortunately for them the school did make an effort to curb that sort of thing, especially because they had my parents and grandparents to deal with.

When I was in first and second grade, there was a rumor going around that our principal had a "spanking machine". None of us knew for sure if that was true or not and none of us really wanted to find out.  ;D ;D ;D  Of course, I wouldn't have been a bit surprised if it was our principal who started that rumor. Sometimes fear could be a good deterrent-and sometimes not.  :-\\



Cat

I blame the parents. They just don't know how to or don't want discipline their kids. They think that reasoning with them or giving choices works; but it doesn't.  I guess that's why we have  parenting shows (Super Nanny, Nanny 911) on to help these dysfunctional parents. I see alot more tantrums and meltdowns in stores than when my daughter was younger. I've been a parent for 18 years and noticed the younger and newer parents raise their kids a lot more different than my generation did.

I have two " step nephews".  My step-dad has two sons in their thirties and one of them is married and has two little boys.  Their names are Brandon(7) and Logan(2).  When they come to my mother's home ( grandma and grandpa's to them of course) and miss behave my mother punishes them the same way she punished my little brother and I.  If Logan refuses to listen to my mother when she tells him specifically not to play with his cars on the glass coffee table he is punished.  How is he punished? Well, dear reader, he gets swatted on the bare butt a couple of times and made to sit in TO for about 10 minutes; just like I was.  Sure he cries but than he calms down (as much as a two year old can) and goes on with the rest of his easy breezy life.  The same can be said of the punishment Brandon receives from his parents when he is acting out of control.  My point is that there is nothing wrong with spanking or grabbing the face of, a small child to get their attention.  The reason I am so opinionated about this is because ( as one poster mentioned above) people like Super Nanny want to call that abuse. Since when in the hell did basic child discipline become abuse? Abuse, dear reader, is burning you child's flesh with cigarettes, or locking them in a closet.

I have two " step nephews".  My step-dad has two sons in their thirties and one of them is married and has two little boys.  Their names are Brandon(7) and Logan(2).  When they come to my mother's home ( grandma and grandpa's to them of course) and miss behave my mother punishes them the same way she punished my little brother and I.  If Logan refuses to listen to my mother when she tells him specifically not to play with his cars on the glass coffee table he is punished.  How is he punished? Well, dear reader, he gets swatted on the bare butt a couple of times and made to sit in TO for about 10 minutes; just like I was.  Sure he cries but than he calms down (as much as a two year old can) and goes on with the rest of his easy breezy life.  The same can be said of the punishment Brandon receives from his parents when he is acting out of control.  My point is that there is nothing wrong with spanking or grabbing the face of, a small child to get their attention.  The reason I am so opinionated about this is because ( as one poster mentioned above) people like Super Nanny want to call that abuse. Since when in the hell did basic child discipline become abuse? Abuse, dear reader, is burning you child's flesh with cigarettes, or locking them in a closet.


Yes. And there is a difference between discipline and abuse. The problem is there are many out there who don't know the difference, and you don't have to burn flesh or lock in a closet to be abusive.  It is one thing to smack a child but another thing to leave welts and bruises.  It is one thing to make eye contact, it is another thing to need dental work after that is done.  It is one thing to tell a child the difference between right and wrong, it is another thing to tell them that they unwanted, unloved, and the thousands of other things people say to mentally abuse a child.  I don't think anyone here would fault your mother, although many would not subscribe to her method, but you seem to be on the defensive. 

I have two " step nephews".  My step-dad has two sons in their thirties and one of them is married and has two little boys.  Their names are Brandon(7) and Logan(2).  When they come to my mother's home ( grandma and grandpa's to them of course) and miss behave my mother punishes them the same way she punished my little brother and I.  If Logan refuses to listen to my mother when she tells him specifically not to play with his cars on the glass coffee table he is punished.  How is he punished? Well, dear reader, he gets swatted on the bare butt a couple of times and made to sit in TO for about 10 minutes; just like I was.  Sure he cries but than he calms down (as much as a two year old can) and goes on with the rest of his easy breezy life.  The same can be said of the punishment Brandon receives from his parents when he is acting out of control.  My point is that there is nothing wrong with spanking or grabbing the face of, a small child to get their attention.  The reason I am so opinionated about this is because ( as one poster mentioned above) people like Super Nanny want to call that abuse. Since when in the hell did basic child discipline become abuse? Abuse, dear reader, is burning you child's flesh with cigarettes, or locking them in a closet.
Of course there are degrees of abuse.  OK, so you survived the bare bottom beating.  Sure your step nephew will go on with his easy breezy life.  It is possible and more effective to discipline a child without hitting though, and I don't understand why people would rather hit than learn alternate methods. 

Of course there are degrees of abuse.  OK, so you survived the bare bottom beating.  Sure your step nephew will go on with his easy breezy life.  It is possible and more effective to discipline a child without hitting though, and I don't understand why people would rather hit than learn alternate methods. 
How can you say that they haven't learned alternate methods?  Why does it have to be a "all one or the other" issue?  Most of the time, taking away privileges and talking to my kids does the job, but there are times where they get a swat on the behind or hand.  I HAVE to give my middle guy a swat when we're in a really noisy place if he's misbehaving because he has an auditory disorder where he doesn't process words in loud situations (and I'm not talking rock-concert loud, even in some restaurants, I could talk until I'm blue in the face and he'd have no idea what I was saying).  Usually, it's not even hard enough to really hurt, but it gets his attention and he knows to straighten up.

Just personally speaking, I'd NEVER put a hand on my kids if/when I have them, no matter what they did (although I hope that someday I'd be the kind of dad no kid would want to rebel against in the first place). Taking away privledges, grounding them without entertainment, or other kinds of humane discipline is one thing, but I'd never want someone I loved to be afraid of their physical safety because of me.


There's a HUGE difference between getting a swat on the butt or hand and making a kid "afraid of their physical safety."

Perhaps children are better behaved in hunter-gatherer cultures. 

"OK, Nanook, you can get out in the kayak and harpoon that seal, or you can goof around on the iceberg and get eaten by polar bears.  Up to you, bub!"

:-\\

How can you say that they haven't learned alternate methods?  Why does it have to be a "all one or the other" issue?  Most of the time, taking away privileges and talking to my kids does the job, but there are times where they get a swat on the behind or hand.  I HAVE to give my middle guy a swat when we're in a really noisy place if he's misbehaving because he has an auditory disorder where he doesn't process words in loud situations (and I'm not talking rock-concert loud, even in some restaurants, I could talk until I'm blue in the face and he'd have no idea what I was saying).  Usually, it's not even hard enough to really hurt, but it gets his attention and he knows to straighten up.There's a HUGE difference between getting a swat on the butt or hand and making a kid "afraid of their physical safety."
I haven't said it's all one or the other.  If you'll read my previous posts I've stated that I'm not above a swat on the butt (although my own daughter doesn't respond to it).  I wasn't talking about a swat on the butt, I was talking about a spanking.

My comment was a direct response to Zeb who seemed on the defensive about spanking.  He mentioned his mother and her tried and true methods for discipline.  He said they got a warning, then a swat, and it's been that way in his family = don't fix what aint broke.  It didn't seem like there was much room there for an alternate approach which is why I said "learned".  It was just don't do that, then whack.  

Look, I have a 4 year old.  I know that reasoning doesn't always do the trick.  Sometimes "the look" doesn't even work (and I have a pretty good one  ;))  I know that each meltdown needs to be handled differently.   My biggest problem with spanking is that people usually do it when THEY are frustrated and not just because they're teaching the child a lesson  :-\\.  

I understand that everyone has a different situation.  My best friend has an autistic son who will make a scene in places when they have to leave and she's literally trying to lift him off the floor and drag him home.  Strangers always have something to say and it's either about how she can't control him or how she's flipping him around like a ragdoll; it's a no-win situation for her.

A good flick on the nose usually works. =P

The teenager. I felt I shouldn't quote it because it would just give me more of a headache.

To be serious, I'm not picking on him. I just don't see the need to use a lot of random dots in a paragraph like that. Is it a new trend or what?


I do this but that's because that's how my brain works if i didn't separate my words with the dots i wouldn't be able to keep my thoughts straight. I am sure its annoying to everyone else but its how I process plus if I need to go back and read what I wrote it helps separate the words too because when I write like this on a computer screen its hard for me to follow the lines so inevitably I misread what you guys with you're long paragraphs write because the words jump all over the screen for me. it was so hard for me to write this without any ...because I use them so often I just gave myself a headache. suffer through my posts... because I am keeping them

I do this but that's because that's how my brain works if i didn't separate my words with the dots i wouldn't be able to keep my thoughts straight. I am sure its annoying to everyone else but its how I process plus if I need to go back and read what I wrote it helps separate the words too because when I write like this on a computer screen its hard for me to follow the lines so inevitably I misread what you guys with you're long paragraphs write because the words jump all over the screen for me. it was so hard for me to write this without any ...because I use them so often I just gave myself a headache. suffer through my posts... because I am keeping them


Um, first of all, I wasn't talking about you. I can read your posts fine, and I have never seen you use as many "..." as the person I was referring to did. Second of all, I don't write long paragraphs. I try to keep them short and to the point. If I need to write something longer, I try to break it up because I know what a pain in the ass it is to read a paragraph that runs on for fifty or so sentences. And last but not least, I wrote the original post you just quoted in September. Why get offended by it now?

If you had a problem with what I wrote, why didn't you just PM me and get the facts? ???

Um, first of all, I wasn't talking about you. I can read your posts fine, and I have never seen you use as many "..." as the person I was referring to did. Second of all, I don't write long paragraphs. I try to keep them short and to the point. If I need to write something longer, I try to break it up because I know what a pain in the ass it is to read a paragraph that runs on for fifty or so sentences. And last but not least, I wrote the original post you just quoted in September. Why get offended by it now?

If you had a problem with what I wrote, why didn't you just PM me and get the facts? ???


sorry didn't mean to create any drama. Its really just a self assessment I know I use.... alot more than the norm.  Peace cuz I didn't mean anything malicious by it... see that's why I use em .... otherwise my words get all twisted  ;)

sorry didn't mean to create any drama. Its really just a self assessment I know I use.... alot more than the norm.  Peace cuz I didn't mean anything malicious by it... see that's why I use em .... otherwise my words get all twisted  ;)


S'coo. Believe me, I have never even noticed you using them. :)

In response to the topic: Not exactly. I was a good-mannered person during that age period (and I still am), though I did have some behavioral problems around ages 4-13 due to me having autism. But they're not so bad now.

I do this but that's because that's how my brain works if i didn't separate my words with the dots i wouldn't be able to keep my thoughts straight. I am sure its annoying to everyone else but its how I process plus if I need to go back and read what I wrote it helps separate the words too because when I write like this on a computer screen its hard for me to follow the lines so inevitably I misread what you guys with you're long paragraphs write because the words jump all over the screen for me. it was so hard for me to write this without any ...because I use them so often I just gave myself a headache. suffer through my posts... because I am keeping them


... Please keep the dots.

... Please keep the dots.


;D


I was in Borders the other day and this 5 year kid would not leave. The mom kept following her around. "Now Honey I told you its time to go" "Honey we're leaving now" "Honey" the mom never raised her voice. She just kept talking in that annoying sing-song parents have adapted to using. My mom would have told me once, maybe twice but there would never have been a 3rd 4th or 5th time. My butt would have been dragged out of the store and if she'd purchased anything for me it would have gone in the closet until I was good and deserved it.

My mom would have told me once, maybe twice but there would never have been a 3rd 4th or 5th time. My butt would have been dragged out of the store and if she'd purchased anything for me it would have gone in the closet until I was good and deserved it.

Sounds familiar!  My mom did the one-to-ten count, which meant if I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing or stopping what I wasn't supposed to be doing when she said "ten," my ass was grass!
:o

Then I noticed other mothers did the same thing, but there would be a dramatic slow down after "seven," or fractioning--"nine, nine-and-a-half, nine-and-three-quarters"...I never got those accommodations!

I was in Borders the other day and this 5 year kid would not leave. The mom kept following her around. "Now Honey I told you its time to go" "Honey we're leaving now" "Honey" the mom never raised her voice. She just kept talking in that annoying sing-song parents have adapted to using. My mom would have told me once, maybe twice but there would never have been a 3rd 4th or 5th time. My butt would have been dragged out of the store and if she'd purchased anything for me it would have gone in the closet until I was good and deserved it.


Haha... hell yes! Tough love is what it is! Children need boundaries or else they will run riot! They don't know any better at that age.

;D


I was in Borders the other day and this 5 year kid would not leave. The mom kept following her around. "Now Honey I told you its time to go" "Honey we're leaving now" "Honey" the mom never raised her voice. She just kept talking in that annoying sing-song parents have adapted to using. My mom would have told me once, maybe twice but there would never have been a 3rd 4th or 5th time. My butt would have been dragged out of the store and if she'd purchased anything for me it would have gone in the closet until I was good and deserved it.


It is the annoying mom that needs to be dragged out of the store.  These parents drive me nuts. I was in a store and a mom threatened to get the security guard to come over and tell the child how to behave in the store.  "If you aren't good I am going to get the security guard to come over and talk to you"  I could have smacked her.

Sounds familiar!  My mom did the one-to-ten count, which meant if I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing or stopping what I wasn't supposed to be doing when she said "ten," my ass was grass!
:o

Then I noticed other mothers did the same thing, but there would be a dramatic slow down after "seven," or fractioning--"nine, nine-and-a-half, nine-and-three-quarters"...I never got those accommodations!
This is why I start at 5 and count backward  ;).  I'm forced to take action by the time I get to zero (although I don't even have to get there).  The most important thing is to stick to your guns and follow through with whatever action you've threatened.

This is why I start at 5 and count backward  ;).  I'm forced to take action by the time I get to zero (although I don't even have to get there).  The most important thing is to stick to your guns and follow through with whatever action you've threatened.



Exactly. If you don't follow through then the kids know that they are just empty threats and won't take anything you said seriously. I think if you just follow through once, that may be enough for kids to know that you are not fooling with your threats.



Cat

I actually kept my daughter home from a birthday party because she was a raging lunatic and not fit for company.  Now, before every party she asks me if we're going and I say, "that's entirely up to you".  She knows I mean it.

This is why I start at 5 and count backward  ;).  I'm forced to take action by the time I get to zero (although I don't even have to get there).  The most important thing is to stick to your guns and follow through with whatever action you've threatened.

Yeah, my sister was a little more defiant, so she would let it run to seven or eight.  I'd surrender at three!  It's one of a few things my mother got right--consequences.


"If you aren't good I am going to get the security guard to come over and talk to you"  I could have smacked her.

Really.  Paddle your own damn canoe, lady!
::)

My mom never used any physical punishment nor raised her voice with me. "The look" was more than enough to get me to realize I was doing something wrong.

If it wasn't that, it was dead silence or subtle questioning: trick me into confessing stuff she really didn't know about: psychological warfare at its finest.  :D

When I was maybe 11, I was taking money from her change jar to play the arcade. She found out and gave me "the look". Some things stick with you: that scene is as vivid today as it was 20-some years ago.

My dad once put me over his knee and gave me a good 6 or 7 whacks with his hand, and I can say that straightened me out pretty quickly.

Other disciplinarians while I was younger were met with mixed results. Most adults talked to me like I was an adult, and my responses were mainly positive. Thinking your kids are too dumb or naive to understand rational thought or 'adult speak' is only hindering them, IMO.

I remember going to see a counselor and was talked to like I was 5. I was very pissed off and remember getting the hell out of there via faking the need to take a leak.

Ant

Is it just me or do children of today (7-16) lack manners, proper communication skills and respect? Seriously, when asked a question most simply reply “HUH?” or “YA” like the adult they are talking to is one of their buddies! Had that been me growing up, a quick backhand to the mouth would have been enough to take that huh out! Unfortunately, rearing a child is so different now then it was when I was growing up. It was nothing back then for a parent to whoop their child in a parking lot or right in the grocery store as they acted up, but today I see parents give in, trying to soothe the child with what they want instead of demanding the respect the parent so rightly deserves. I also understand that many parent by “spare the rod, spoil the child” and in some cases it works out quite nicely, but in other cases we end up with irresponsible, ignorant and down right rude children.

Case(s) in point: I was at a bowling alley last weekend with my team, when a child of no more than 8 said to his mother “gimme a dollar for the vending machine“. The mother said no, that the child had been given enough money and since he spent it all, he will have to wait until she was done. This child then turned around, smacked his mother on the arse, called her a b!tch in front of everyone, and then took off screaming through the bowling alley!

Another child I was talking to seemed to be as polite as can be. She wore a cute little dress and had her hair in pigtails. I asked her if she liked her dress and she replied “HUH?” so I said “pardon me” and she said “HUH?” Seen as she is not my child, I didn’t try and correct it further, I simply asked the question again to which she said “Ya. DUH! I wouldn’t wear it if I didn’t like it!” Note: her mother was standing to the side and laughed at her daughter's response!

If either one of these children were mine, I would have scooped them up and taken them to the restroom so fast! Of course, because we are in todays society, CPS would be called in a heartbeat! So where should the blame really be laid? The parents? Society?  Or the Special Interest Group that feels a child needs no rearing whatsoever?


Liberals.

They tell us to be gentle because children are fragile. Now they're killing themselves because they never knew tough love and having toughness. This could get them into very low self-esteem.

Both of my kids were good until the magic age of 11, then wham my son who is very intelligent became more vocal and opinionated, he would tell some of his teachers they were wrong, luckily he grew out of that {oh he will still tell you his opinion but he is not as forthright as he use to be} my daughter I could go on for ages everything changed ,my husband said yesterday, what happened to daddy's little girl, where did we go wrong..well i think it was a combination of her choice of friends, she likes to hang out with kids who don't like school,kids who are mouthy, where as my son hangs out with the band kids,some athletes and just a different assortment of students.. my daughter also discovered boys and if you don't let her talk on-line or on the phone to them you are the worst parent ever..my husband and I don't agree on how to punish her..he is one to fly off the handle where I let things slide more, which my d daughter knows how to play us against each other..plus knowing that if your parents harm you in any way you can call social services ,has I believed made her or lead her to become the terror she now is.

When I was maybe 11, I was taking money from her change jar to play the arcade. She found out and gave me "the look". Some things stick with you: that scene is as vivid today as it was 20-some years ago.
Heh heh!  I used to do the same thing at that age.  I did it for a couple of years.  It never amounted to more than change or a dollar bill.  My dad never figured it out.  The man was so disorganized, I don't think he even missed it.  My mom figured out I was pilfering from her change purse and grounded me a couple of times for it, but I didn't stop until I outgrew the behavior.  Thank god I did, 'coz I'd be in jail now if I didn't!  I still feel guilty about it.  The other day I miscounted at the donut shop, the cashier said, "The coffee is $1.63, you only gave me $1.60, but don't worry about it." She reached for the take-a-penny-leave-a-penny tray.  I said, "Oh no, I can't do that to you, it's not right." I forked over the three pennies.  Guilt isn't always a bad thing.

My dad once put me over his knee and gave me a good 6 or 7 whacks with his hand, and I can say that straightened me out pretty quickly.
My dad was totally nasty to me but it was all verbal/psychological.  The one time he did that was because I was playing with my Matchbox cars in the middle of the frikkin' road!   So, I'd say I had it coming; an idiot needs a harsher kind of wake-up call!
::)

Other disciplinarians while I was younger were met with mixed results. Most adults talked to me like I was an adult, and my responses were mainly positive. Thinking your kids are too dumb or naive to understand rational thought or 'adult speak' is only hindering them, IMO.

I remember going to see a counselor and was talked to like I was 5. I was very pissed off and remember getting the hell out of there via faking the need to take a leak.

Ant

Liberals.

They tell us to be gentle because children are fragile. Now they're killing themselves because they never knew tough love and having toughness. This could get them into very low self-esteem.


just one among dozens of pitfalls in progressivist (not liberal - true liberalism is rare nowadays) ideology


(and yes, i know i never use any proper punctuation whatsoever...) :P

i have a two old and times due get hard to were i think i am wrong for displine her so i look at my mom and grandmom for support. But with the world today saying u can no longer hit ur child or u will have social service called on you or get fined for it that is straight b.s to me.. the government wants to know what goin on with our kids today killing other shooting schools up etc. ect. it cuz the parents dont give a damn what is goin on they cant do nothing but in my eyes i was raised with respected and that what i am gonna do to my daughter. just a couple of weeks ago my daughter ran away from me in the super market when i caught her i spanked her for not listen and the store clerk told me i was wrong to hit my child i reply back with mind ur own business only becuz i will be damned if my daughter will disrespect me i know goin up if i so even rasied a hand to my mother or grandnmother my dad would beat me so hard i couldnt sit.. Im sorry but i am not gonna have some stupid ass government legislater tell me how i should rasie my child if i listen to that happy crappy b.s my daughter will grow up not listening n doin what she pleases.  displine comes to an extent.

i have a two old and times due get hard to were i think i am wrong for displine her so i look at my mom and grandmom for support. But with the world today saying u can no longer hit ur child or u will have social service called on you or get fined for it that is straight b.s to me.. the government wants to know what goin on with our kids today killing other shooting schools up etc. ect. it cuz the parents dont give a damn what is goin on they cant do nothing but in my eyes i was raised with respected and that what i am gonna do to my daughter. just a couple of weeks ago my daughter ran away from me in the super market when i caught her i spanked her for not listen and the store clerk told me i was wrong to hit my child i reply back with mind ur own business only becuz i will be damned if my daughter will disrespect me i know goin up if i so even rasied a hand to my mother or grandnmother my dad would beat me so hard i couldnt sit.. Im sorry but i am not gonna have some stupid ass government legislater tell me how i should rasie my child if i listen to that happy crappy b.s my daughter will grow up not listening n doin what she pleases.  displine comes to an extent.


No offense, but that's against the law for a reason.

Whether it's going overboard on physical violence, or on the other side, parents who will let their kids run crazy like brats and do everything (or when they get arrested and five years in jail for a little spanking)...BOTH of those are extremes, neither of which is good at all.

Like I said last time, punishment should vary by the person and the action. That's what makes questions like these so controversial, because there's no simple easy answer that will solve everything, so no one ends up agreeing. All in all though, I think anything like that should be a last resort, not a first resort. That's the distinction I've been trying to make. Encouraging any kind of violence in our society (even if it's well intentioned or rightful) just isn't positive or healthy behavior. There's better ways to teach kids a lesson, and in many cases I think corporal punishment is a crutch for people who have a short fuse themselves. This is something I've seen many examples of, so I'm not pulling it out of my @ss either.

I was been spanked 3 or 4 times growing up... what I remember most is not what I did to get the spanking but how it made me feel. I felt so let down that my role model- my dad- would treat me this way...and what did- even looking back now didn't really warrant a spanking. It would've been better dealt with by talking to me.

If my father had said i am so disappointed in you because you did.... That would have been far more effective than any spanking. Plus I never learned my lesson. 

I learned I didn't want to get spanked again so I worked harder at not getting caught doing something wrong...  ;D

I was been spanked 3 or 4 times growing up... what I remember most is not what I did to get the spanking but how it made me feel. I felt so let down that my role model- my dad- would treat me this way...and what did- even looking back now didn't really warrant a spanking. It would've been better dealt with by talking to me.

If my father had said i am so disappointed in you because you did.... That would have been far more effective than any spanking. Plus I never learned my lesson. 

I learned I didn't want to get spanked again so I worked harder at not getting caught doing something wrong...  ;D


You know what, that's a really good point. I think the main reason people cling to spanking is this whole argument about it "teaching a lesson" or making the kids respect you. What they don't realize is that it actually does just the opposite most of the time. Words and simple actions tend to have much more of a psychological effect on someone, especially if it clearly disappoints a loved parent. I know the few times I got spanked as a kid, that made me think much harder and feel guiltier than the actual punishment.

Flicking your child on the nose works just as well, and it hurts less.

Flicking your child on the nose works just as well, and it hurts less.


I've found that a pinch on the arm is more effective than a spanking.

And I'm talking about Jason, not Rice Cube. :D

I've found that a pinch on the arm is more effective than a spanking.

And I'm talking about Jason, not Rice Cube. :D



yes...that does work really well! ;)

Hmm...

A pinch on the arm may be... quite condescending
But spanking is a parent's friend!
A pinch doesn't harm, well, not never-ending
Yes, it's over quick
When Johnny's been a little ..er.. OK, maybe not

I was spanked three times as a child, twice by mom, once by dad.  In all honesty, looking back at the situations/what I had done to get swatted, I have to say that all three were completely justifiable.     ;D

I remember my dad saying to my brother one time, "I'm going to slap your face so hard, you won't be able to sit down for a week".  ???  :o :o



:D ;D ;D



Cat

I remember my dad saying to my brother one time, "I'm going to slap your face so hard, you won't be able to sit down for a week".  ???  :o :o



:D ;D ;D



Cat


LOL  ;D

wasn't it Bernie Mac who said "bust that head till the white meat shows"  ;D

I received a huge box of NSPCC booklets entitled, 'Encouraging Better Behaviour' today and I am planning to hand them out to parents who are out shopping with their children very soon. the booklet contains sections such as, 'Why children misbehave,' 'Why smacking is never a good idea,' and 'Reacting to your child's changing needs ( a section that focuses on different ways to treat babies, toddlers, school-age children and teenagers).' I already wear an NSPCC wrist band and I feel that handing out the booklets will help parents to stop physically punishing their children. It's one of those ways to, 'Be the Full Stop.'

I received a huge box of NSPCC booklets entitled, 'Encouraging Better Behaviour' today and I am planning to hand them out to parents who are out shopping with their children very soon. the booklet contains sections such as, 'Why children misbehave,' 'Why smacking is never a good idea,' and 'Reacting to your child's changing needs ( a section that focuses on different ways to treat babies, toddlers, school-age children and teenagers).' I already wear an NSPCC wrist band and I feel that handing out the booklets will help parents to stop physically punishing their children. It's one of those ways to, 'Be the Full Stop.'


Or a great way to get a smack in the mouth!