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Subject: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: thereshegoes on 02/11/09 at 1:44 pm

My friend who is 27 just told me she's dating a 65 year old man. She says he's great and treats her right but i can't help find it a little creepy.

Dating someone old enough to be your father is one thing, but a guy with grandchildren? Am i being really close minded? :-\\

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 02/11/09 at 1:47 pm

I'm going to go with 30-40, but I think I relate better to people within my so-called age bracket.  But if you truly love someone and not because they're about to kick over and leave you craploads of money...well, why not? 

I think it's different for everyone.  Depends on what you define as true love I guess.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: thereshegoes on 02/11/09 at 2:03 pm

Yeah, that makes sense. But i was a little shocked at first, i mean she likes to go clubbing all the time and i can't see them doing that together.

I don't know...the bigger i went was 20 years and it was more like a fling, we just didn't have much in common. He teached me a lot of stuff though 8)

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: karen on 02/11/09 at 2:06 pm

when I read about your friend I'll admit that my jaw dropped.  I think 25 years and upwards is probably too big a gap.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: joeman on 02/11/09 at 2:14 pm

Really depends on how you feel about a person.  Though I'd imagine someone being 20 years older to you might seem like a parental figure rather than a lover.

But age is just a number, right?

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Ashkicksass on 02/11/09 at 2:24 pm

I'm not gonna lie...I think a 20-something dating someone in their 60's is kinda creepy.  I'm sorry if that's mean of me, but I can't help it.  I've dated men that were 20 years older than me, but that was my limit. 

But if they are happy together, who are we to judge? 

Come to think of it...I would date Sean Connery in a second.

And Paul Newman. 

So...maybe it's ok.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: karen on 02/11/09 at 2:25 pm



And Paul Newman. 




Umm.  Not now I wouldn't

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 02/11/09 at 2:28 pm



Umm.  Not now I wouldn't


RIP Paul.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: thereshegoes on 02/11/09 at 2:31 pm



Umm.  Not now I wouldn't


Not into necrophilia,K?  :D

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Ashkicksass on 02/11/09 at 2:32 pm



Umm.  Not now I wouldn't


Well of course not now...you know what I mean!

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 02/11/09 at 2:33 pm


Well of course not now...you know what I mean!


Well, there was that one scene in Clerks where Dante's girlfriend had sex with the dead guy in the store bathroom...

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Ashkicksass on 02/11/09 at 2:38 pm


Well, there was that one scene in Clerks where Dante's girlfriend had sex with the dead guy in the store bathroom...


http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/eek7.gif

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Rice_Cube on 02/11/09 at 2:39 pm

It's a very good movie.  Kevin Smith's best in my opinion.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: thereshegoes on 02/11/09 at 2:51 pm

"My mom has been fudgeing a dead guy for 30 years. I call him dad"  :D

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 02/11/09 at 3:08 pm

Carlos is 17 years older than I am and I think we are so totally compatible. He may not know some of my references to pop culture but so what. We tend to agree on most things that are important.



Cat

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: tv on 02/11/09 at 4:00 pm

I think like a woman 10 years older than me would be fine to date maybe even 11-12 years older but I stricktly want to draw the line at 10 yeat older than me. I think 15 years older is way too much difference for me anyway.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Dagwood on 02/11/09 at 4:42 pm

Tough question.  I went with 20-30 years.  I think it depends on the age of the youngest member.  If they are 20, it seems weird to date someone in their 40's but I could easily see a 40 year old dating a 60 year old.  I guess it would be a maturity issue rather than an age issue.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Marty McFly on 02/11/09 at 5:24 pm

I think it depends on the person, but I'd generally also say 10-12 years (as long as they're both legally adults of course). If you're within that span you're usually dealing with someone who's not TOO different. Like they didn't grow up with what you did, but it's not a full generation away and there's bound to be a few things they have in common.

People often bring up the "oh what would you have in common, what would you do together" argument, and I think it's more valid over the course of a long relationship. The younger one might get bored after awhile if their partner is more settled down, set in their ways and less active. The older one also might find it harder to keep up with the younger one. There's also the issue of kids, and if the younger one wants to have them (especially if it's a younger guy and an older woman).

On the other hand, sometimes the differences might make it fun, if each person rubs off a little on the other, and the each have a new experience they otherwise wouldn't have.

On the same token you can't define what someone thinks, acts, feels or is interested in based only on their age. Oh sure, there's common themes but everyone is different too. This isn't quite the same example, but when I was a kid and early teenager, I enjoyed talking with adults (or older teens...say 15/16+) more than with other kids usually.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: woops on 02/11/09 at 7:47 pm

Over 10

Though I pretty much prefer women around my age range.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: coqueta83 on 02/11/09 at 11:37 pm

Just like some of you said, I think it really depends on the person. My parents were 20 years apart in age yet they really loved and cared for each other.  :)

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: danootaandme on 02/12/09 at 6:07 am



I'm not gonna lie...I think a 20-something dating someone in their 60's is kinda creepy.  I'm sorry if that's mean of me, but I can't help it. 



Big Ditto.  When you are that young going with someone that old, there is something there that is just not right, on both sides.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Don Carlos on 02/12/09 at 10:54 am

I think it depends on the direction of age difference and the expectations the couple have for the relationship.  A young guy who wants kids should probably avoid a woman over 40, and a young woman should avoid a guy who willl be too old to be an active dad.  But like Cat said, we are 17 years apart and doing fine.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Marty McFly on 02/12/09 at 11:23 am


Just like some of you said, I think it really depends on the person. My parents were 20 years apart in age yet they really loved and cared for each other.  :)


Oh right on, my parents are the same way. When they got married, mom was 24 and dad was 40 (back in 1978 and I was born three years later). Even though my dad was a bit older than normal, he was youngish enough to do typical stuff with me when I was a kid.

I guess that's one reason I've always been open to age difference relationships, since I got used to it (my mom did seem alot younger even if they were both adults, of course).

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: joeman on 02/12/09 at 11:38 am


Oh right on, my parents are the same way. When they got married, mom was 24 and dad was 40 (back in 1978 and I was born three years later). Even though my dad was a bit older than normal, he was youngish enough to do typical stuff with me when I was a kid.

I guess that's one reason I've always been open to age difference relationships, since I got used to it (my mom did seem alot younger even if they were both adults, of course).



I am glad I found someone else that had older parents.  While there there is a 4 year age difference between my parents, my dad was 43(mom was 38-39) when I was born.  That said, I have a different view what I consider old as I honestly don't consider 40-somethings old imo.

Going back to the topic, I am open for age differences too, as I see nothing wrong with it with the possible exception of a younger man looking for a mother figure. 

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 02/12/09 at 12:28 pm


I think it depends on the direction of age difference and the expectations the couple have for the relationship.  A young guy who wants kids should probably avoid a woman over 40, and a young woman should avoid a guy who willl be too old to be an active dad.  But like Cat said, we are 17 years apart and doing fine.



Just fine? I think we are doing GREAT!!!!



Cat

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: thereshegoes on 02/12/09 at 2:44 pm

Good answers everyone.

I think it does depend on the person but i know her,she was that girl who would only date hot young guys i love her to death but her relationships were always pretty shallow. And now this "sugar daddy" wannabe makes her weak in the knees? I don't wanna say she's in it for money but other than the gifts and the lifestyle i really don't get what she sees in him.
But love is strange, my father's wife is practically my age and my dad is dirty poor so she must really care for him.


Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Marty McFly on 02/13/09 at 12:18 pm


I am glad I found someone else that had older parents.  While there there is a 4 year age difference between my parents, my dad was 43(mom was 38-39) when I was born.  That said, I have a different view what I consider old as I honestly don't consider 40-somethings old imo.

Going back to the topic, I am open for age differences too, as I see nothing wrong with it with the possible exception of a younger man looking for a mother figure. 


Thanks dude, yeah I think it was cool growing up with an older dad (my mom was just about average age). They're both youthful for their ages - like my dad played Nintendo games with me when I was growing up, even liked some of the pop music and was just entertaining...but also had a certain old-fashionedness I wouldnt' have gotten if he'd been like my mom's same age. I got a really good understanding of time too, since I had relatives with alot of history.

Another pet peeve I always kinda had is when some kid called like 35 "old" - although I guess if that's how old their parents are it's kinda natural. With me I had the room to be like "oh yeah that guy's an adult but he's not like my dad's age or something".

Even today my mind still doesn't quite see people as being TOTALLY the authority figures and parents until they're in their 40s, and it's probably because of how I grew up.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: joeman on 02/14/09 at 9:43 am


Thanks dude, yeah I think it was cool growing up with an older dad (my mom was just about average age). They're both youthful for their ages - like my dad played Nintendo games with me when I was growing up, even liked some of the pop music and was just entertaining...but also had a certain old-fashionedness I wouldnt' have gotten if he'd been like my mom's same age. I got a really good understanding of time too, since I had relatives with alot of history.

Another pet peeve I always kinda had is when some kid called like 35 "old" - although I guess if that's how old their parents are it's kinda natural. With me I had the room to be like "oh yeah that guy's an adult but he's not like my dad's age or something".

Even today my mind still doesn't quite see people as being TOTALLY the authority figures and parents until they're in their 40s, and it's probably because of how I grew up.


Your right about the perception about whether one considers old has to do how old their parents are.  My best friend is about the same age as me, but her mom is only 20 years older than her, and her grandmother is 61 lol.  Her and her mom do share similiar taste in music, but laughs a bit when her mom listens to Phish.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: coqueta83 on 02/14/09 at 7:40 pm


Oh right on, my parents are the same way. When they got married, mom was 24 and dad was 40 (back in 1978 and I was born three years later). Even though my dad was a bit older than normal, he was youngish enough to do typical stuff with me when I was a kid.

I guess that's one reason I've always been open to age difference relationships, since I got used to it (my mom did seem alot younger even if they were both adults, of course).



Even with his health struggles, my dad tried to do as many fun things with me as possible. Even though he was 20 years older than my mom, he was a little more into the current pop culture than my mom was.  :)

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: statsqueen on 02/14/09 at 9:26 pm

I agree wholeheartedly that it depends on the people involved.  Having said that, speaking JUST for myself...

My last relationship was with a guy 10 yrs (2 months, 1 day) older (when we started dating I was 38).  We had so much fun together.  I found him attractive regardless of the wrinkles, grey hair, etc.  He had a great sense of humor, treated me wonderfully, and loved my daughter.  There was a difference in education that meant nothing.  He could fix anything and was a plumber by trade (which came in handy).  He knew how to do laundry, cook and clean.  We would play the "where were you in (fill in the year)".  It was fun because he was the older one and it was just in good fun.  He got on with my family and I adored his.  If I hadn't scewed up, I could have ended up married to him and I know I would have been incredibly happy.

Last weekend at jazz, I flirted with a guy I thought looked to be about 30-31 (so 10-11 yrs younger).  He ended up joining us at our table.  Turns out he was 29.  He stuck around even after finding out how old I am (yes, I told him the truth).  He had to leave, but came back then asked to go to my place to watch a movie.  He left after about 15 mins.  He mentioned wanting to date a 20 year old who just broke up w/ her b/f even though when one of his friends asked her if she would go out with him (I wondered when we went back to HS!) she said he was too old for her.  I decided he was too immature and let it go.

I figured I have a 10 year range and if I'm in a relationship again, that will probably be in it, but I think if a guy a little bit outside the range offered what I was looking for, I wouldn't ignore the opportunity if it presented itself.  Give it a chance and see what happens.

However, when I was in my 20s, I wouldn't have been interested in anyone in their 60s.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Gis on 02/15/09 at 3:44 am

Well I think it's a little creepy if one of them is very young, like still a teen, but who can say? I have a great friend at work who's Dad was 70 when he was born, his Mum was in her late 20's, they were from a small village and there was a bit of a local scandal when they got together. However his Dad  lived until he was 101 and they stayed together all that time, very, very happy so who is to say?

Himself is 5 years younger than me but it's never been an issue. 

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 02/17/09 at 11:59 pm

It really depends on the individuals involved.  From what I've observed, differences greater than 20 years are more prone to various age-difference stressors than less than 20 years.  Time of life is also a factor.  A 30-year-old and a 50-year-old will more likely have an easier time of it than a 20-year-old and a 40-year-old.  I'm not saying any length of time is morally wrong in itself provided both parties are of legal age and it's not like Anna Nicole dating the Cryptkeeper to get her hands on all his millions!

My sister did in fact date a 40-year-old man starting when she was 19.  She liked to think of herself as more mature than her peers and that's how she presented herself.  The trouble was, she really wasn't.  My father didn't like what she was doing--then again, whatever you were doing, chances are my father didn't like it anyway--but the rest of the family was supportive.  None of us thought it would last forever.  She did live with him for three years!  She broke up with him because she was bored.  He wasn't a boring fellow at all, but she was in her early twenties and wanted to go clubbing and partying and do crazy stuff people that age like to do.  Norm was in his early forties and was like, "Meh, been there, done that."  He liked his meditation, his yoga, and his gardening.  That's the story we got at the time.  I learned twenty years later the relationship was deterioratiing because she was an angry young lady and he refused to fight with her.  Been there, done that.  She'd throw a fit about him not paying enough attention to her or something, so he'd serve her some oat straw tea.  "We'll talk when you're calm."  Then he'd go work on his dissertation or fix mortar in the walkway or something.  When she dumped him and said she was moving on, Norm was hurt, but he was a big boy and just went on with his life and that was that.
::)

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: thereshegoes on 02/18/09 at 10:49 am


It really depends on the individuals involved.  From what I've observed, differences greater than 20 years are more prone to various age-difference stressors than less than 20 years.  Time of life is also a factor.  A 30-year-old and a 50-year-old will more likely have an easier time of it than a 20-year-old and a 40-year-old.  I'm not saying any length of time is morally wrong in itself provided both parties are of legal age and it's not like Anna Nicole dating the Cryptkeeper to get her hands on all his millions!

My sister did in fact date a 40-year-old man starting when she was 19.  She liked to think of herself as more mature than her peers and that's how she presented herself.  The trouble was, she really wasn't.  My father didn't like what she was doing--then again, whatever you were doing, chances are my father didn't like it anyway--but the rest of the family was supportive.  None of us thought it would last forever.  She did live with him for three years!  She broke up with him because she was bored.  He wasn't a boring fellow at all, but she was in her early twenties and wanted to go clubbing and partying and do crazy stuff people that age like to do.  Norm was in his early forties and was like, "Meh, been there, done that."  He liked his meditation, his yoga, and his gardening.  That's the story we got at the time.  I learned twenty years later the relationship was deterioratiing because she was an angry young lady and he refused to fight with her.  Been there, done that.  She'd throw a fit about him not paying enough attention to her or something, so he'd serve her some oat straw tea.  "We'll talk when you're calm."  Then he'd go work on his dissertation or fix mortar in the walkway or something.  When she dumped him and said she was moving on, Norm was hurt, but he was a big boy and just went on with his life and that was that.
::)


Nice way to bad-mouth your sister,eh?  ;)

I dated a 40 year old guy when i was 20 or so, older guys know it all. They know how to seduce a woman, they make you feel like you're one in a million and because you're younger you start to think you have the upper hand in the relationship, big big lie. I don't regret dating him but i knew what i was to him, he charmed my panties off with his poetry and his philosophical talk and treated me like his favorite student . My childish ways turned him on at first but like most men one day he had enough so he chastised me for my immaturity.
He went back to dating older women, i went back to dating...every kind of men :D

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Marty McFly on 02/18/09 at 12:47 pm

Yeah, lots of times there ARE "more often than not" scenarios, but there's always exceptions too. I know the bad ones (even if its the majority) will make the rest look bad by comparison, but it doesn't mean everyone of a certain status is all one given way.

That said I think Max has some good points. I could see alot of big age difference relationships going like that where it's cool at first but deteriorated after awhile just because they're at different places in life (heck that's how most go anyway, lol). Even if it doesn't work out longterm it could be cool for both parties because it was something different that they wouldn't otherwise have experienced.

My dad was 40 in 1978 but he wasn't the typical boring middle-aged guy (we're talking about someone who still thought flatulation was funny ;D ), which is probably one reason it worked out. On a more serious note, I think lots of times younger women are drawn to older guys because they're NOT someone who might just want to get laid and go out and party..but because they're stable and more responsible.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 02/18/09 at 10:20 pm


Nice way to bad-mouth your sister,eh?  ;)

I dated a 40 year old guy when i was 20 or so, older guys know it all. They know how to seduce a woman, they make you feel like you're one in a million and because you're younger you start to think you have the upper hand in the relationship, big big lie. I don't regret dating him but i knew what i was to him, he charmed my panties off with his poetry and his philosophical talk and treated me like his favorite student . My childish ways turned him on at first but like most men one day he had enough so he chastised me for my immaturity.
He went back to dating older women, i went back to dating...every kind of men :D


Sounds like a Woody Allen movie to me!

No, not the real Woody Allen, just one of his moves, or two or three or five...
;)

I dated a 19-year-old when I was 29.  It wasn't the age difference so much as different backgrounds.
"You're always talking down to me like I don't know anything!"
"That's because you don't know anything!"
And that was the end of that.  I had a long way to go in the how-not-to-be-an-asshole department.  I mean, I still have a little ways to go in that department...

8)

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Step-chan on 03/27/09 at 11:59 pm

30-40 years is definetly abit much. I think it's usually harder for relationships to work when age gaps like that are involved, not to say that some don't work well though.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: whistledog on 03/28/09 at 10:01 pm

I never know when it is too much, even if it's just looking at girls.  The other day at the local Cineplex Theatre, there was a girl, looked like maybe 16-17, and she was playing that Dance Dance Revolution Game. 

Young girl, tight top, big chest, jumping up and down.  How do you NOT look at something like that?  Sometimes it's not easy being a guy lol


To me, age in a relationship doesn't really matter, just so long as she is of legal age.  When love is there, age doesn't mean anything other than that.  Look at Tony Randall .. he was married to a woman who was more than half his age, and they even had a kid together and he was in his 60s if I remember

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: danootaandme on 03/29/09 at 5:43 am


I never know when it is too much, even if it's just looking at girls.  The other day at the local Cineplex Theatre, there was a girl, looked like maybe 16-17, and she was playing that Dance Dance Revolution Game. 

Young girl, tight top, big chest, jumping up and down.  How do you NOT look at something like that?  Sometimes it's not easy being a guy lol


To me, age in a relationship doesn't really matter, just so long as she is of legal age.  When love is there, age doesn't mean anything other than that.  Look at Tony Randall .. he was married to a woman who was more than half his age, and they even had a kid together and he was in his 60s if I remember


He was 75 and she was 25, so let's not kid ourselves, there is something real weird about that.  Word was that the kids were not his natural kids, but insemination from a donor. 

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: CatwomanofV on 03/29/09 at 11:38 am



To me, age in a relationship doesn't really matter, just so long as she is of legal age. 



I think that works both ways. If you have a woman and she hits on a kid who is not of legal age-that is very creepy, too.




Cat

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 04/04/09 at 8:12 pm



I think that works both ways. If you have a woman and she hits on a kid who is not of legal age-that is very creepy, too.



It makes much better tabloid news, though, especially if the chick is "hot."
::)

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: joeman on 04/10/09 at 10:49 pm



I think that works both ways. If you have a woman and she hits on a kid who is not of legal age-that is very creepy, too.




Cat


Every kid dreams is to sleep with their teacher's, and I doubt a news of a 20-something or 30-something woman sleeping with a kid will be looked down much in a say a male community.  The female community however might have a different oppinion.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: MaxwellSmart on 04/28/09 at 1:24 am

I once heard a NAMBLA guy talking on the radio about how the age of consent should be lowered.
The host asked, "Then what should the age of consent be?"
"Four!," declared the NAMBLA guy.

I'd like to believe he was just driving a golf ball....

:o

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Below Average Dave on 05/07/09 at 12:20 am

My first "lover" (relationship wise) was 50 and I was 18, and I'm yet to be in a relationship where my partner was not at least 5 years older than me, so I personally only think it's creepy when the younger person is too young to know what love is (you know the 11 and 12 year olds who think they know love)--well creepy, immoral, and illegal

Oh--where did this term "Cougar" come from, I didn't get it in Arwen's parody, and I'm really behind on the uptake on this one.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Bobby on 05/13/09 at 5:25 am


My friend who is 27 just told me she's dating a 65 year old man. She says he's great and treats her right but i can't help find it a little creepy.

Dating someone old enough to be your father is one thing, but a guy with grandchildren? Am i being really close minded? :-\\


You're not being close-minded really, you're just looking out for your friend. It's only natural to feel hesitation/apprehension about something you are not sure about.

I wasn't really sure what I thought was 'creepy' but I think I settled to around 20-30 years age difference, purely because I think that people may find it difficult to have things in common/a similar perspective of life beyond this age gap. Regardless, it's what works for the people involved and I guess they know more about what works in their relationships than any outsider ever will.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: apollonia1986 on 05/15/09 at 8:03 pm

I don't think any age difference bother's me. My father is 24 years older than my late mother. It doesn't bother me. And I've never been attracted to anyone my age. (Hello, Michael, Prince, Jimmy, Cary...) And I've been through so much in my life--having to take care of my late mother, me going through my dialysis treatment--can I really expect another 23 year old to understand me? My boyfriend now is a surprise because he is the same age as me, but he was around when things started to kind of go to hell for me. So he gets it.  But I still think I'll probably marry someone older than me. I just have always expected that.

I don't know. I just always have. And if people are creeped at me if I marry a man older than me, they don't have to look at me. There's muscles in thier neck so they can turn and look at something else. Geez.

It's all personal preference.

Subject: Re: Age Difference - When is it too much?

Written By: Bobby on 01/28/10 at 9:27 am

I agree with Marty McFly. It does depend on the individuals involved. It certainly isn't for me to judge what should or shouldn't work for people and the differences/contrasts can add spice to a relationship which may have been missing if looking for someone who is safe and compatible.

Relationships serve many different purposes to different people. Me personally, age isn't an issue but I need a deep emotional connection, a need to be on the same wave-length as the person I am in a relationship with and that usually starts with friendship.

I think the bad press with age differences is when you see old men ready to pass on take on trophy gold-diggers. Yet again, changing the perspective, if a young woman makes a really old man happy in his last days on earth then what is wrong with that too?

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