Just wanted to help anyone who doesn't.  (yes I am Christian. I'm a believer and I also believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins) I wanted to share to ppl about how good God is and how much he loves us.  :)  ;)

i believe and i'm a christian but i don't believe in trying to convert anyone. your faith (or lack of) is your own. my girlfriend is a wiccan and my best friend is an asatru, i love them as they are.

Just wanted to help anyone who doesn't.  (yes I am Christian. I'm a believer and I also believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins) I wanted to share to ppl about how good God is and how much he loves us.  :)  ;)


I follow the teachings of Christ, though I am the proud namer of Absorbism.

A lot of people, like yourself, talk about how great God is and how much he loves us. Have you ever felt as though your God hates you? I often feel like God hates me, like I'm doing something to tick him off, and I'm being punished for it. Have you ever felt this way, or something similar? Like God was leaving when things got hard, or that he just didn't care? Lemme know. I guarantee in a week or so Hairspray'll have this on the political board.

No I don't. Why? I have my reasons but I don't want to get this thread all in an uproar.

Absolutely Vile

Yes, I do.

I believe in the Goddess and I believe that Hairspray or Chucky will move this thread to the political/religious boards.  ;)




Cat

I don't believe, but I am not completely closed off to the idea of Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter). However, if I do become religious again, I will end up being Unitarian Universalist or a more liberal-minded (not neccesarily in the political sense) sect.

Just wanted to help anyone who doesn't. (yes I am Christian. I'm a believer and I also believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins) I wanted to share to ppl about how good God is and how much he loves us. :) ;)


I believe as you believe. :)

No I don't. Why? I have my reasons but I don't want to get this thread all in an uproar.

Absolutely Vile

I know what you mean!
;)

I can't answer the poll because there are only two options.  I'm rather agnositic.

I follow the teachings of Christ, though I am the proud namer of Absorbism.

A lot of people, like yourself, talk about how great God is and how much he loves us. Have you ever felt as though your God hates you? I often feel like God hates me, like I'm doing something to tick him off, and I'm being punished for it. Have you ever felt this way, or something similar? Like God was leaving when things got hard, or that he just didn't care? Lemme know. I guarantee in a week or so Hairspray'll have this on the political board.


I definitely feel where your coming from, and It's not because God Hates us. It's because he's testing us. The good lord works in mysterious ways, and his goal is to see us happy in the end, and no one has a harder time believing that than me, so don't feel as if I'm some hotshot lucky bastard that's never suffered or gone through truama cause I have. I got pain inside of me that will never go away.

Jesus, think of Jesus and the amount of suffering he had to go through, never forget that.

I'm not voting on this because I'm somewhere in between. I believe in God, but I don't believe all the BS his fanatical followers spew out. Furthermore, I can't tolerate it when people want to "help" me find my faith or tell me I'm going to burn in hell because I don't believe in their stupid book written by a bunch of cranky old men way back when.


"God and I have a deal: He doesn't tell me how to run my life and I don't tell him how to run the universe."

Another one that belongs on the political/religious board.  Not that it bothers me, I just don't want to see anyone's sensitivities unwittingly encroached upon.

I know what you mean!
;)

I can't answer the poll because there are only two options.  I'm rather agnositic.


I'm proudly atheist. I believe in nothing because there's nothing to believe in. That's it. Don't try and save me. :P

Absolutely Vile

I'm another believer that this whole "God" idea is the invention of Man from start to finish.  It is the only logical conclusion, after all.


Just wanted to help anyone who doesn't.
I can do very well without your kind of help, thank you very much.

I definitely believe in God and the power of prayer. :)

I definitely believe in God and the power of prayer. :)

I can't help but wonder how many people prayed for Hurricane Ivan to stay out at sea somewhere...

I can't help but wonder how many people prayed for Hurricane Ivan to stay out at sea somewhere...


I can't help but wonder how much worse it would have been if no one did.

Are you serious?

Are you serious?


No, not in a fanaticle(sp?) way but, I have no problem believing that prayer saved some lives during the storm.

And it's like this for the rest?

There was a man whose farm was located on the banks of a flood-swollen river.  As the water rose, a neighbor drove up in a Jeep, urging him to leave before the farm was flooded.

"Oh, no," said the man confidently, "God will save me."

The water rose higher, and the man was forced to move into the second story of the farmhouse.  A police boat soon came, and the officers called for the man to hurry and get into their boat.

"Oh, no, that won't be necessary," the man insisted.  "God will save me."

Finally the house was completely engulfed in water, and a Coast Guard helicopter swooped in to rescue the man, now perched on the roof.  Again he refused.  Just then, a huge wave of water swept over the house, and the man drowned.

When he got to heaven, he stormed at the Lord, asking WHY God had let him die when his faith had been so strong.

"What do you mean?" asked the heavenly Father.  "I sent a Jeep, a boat, and a helicopter ... and you wouldn't budge!"

WTF gives Philbo ?!?!  All I did was answer (with MY opinion) a question that was posted. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone or make anybody believe what I believe.
So why the fark are you all in my arse about what I believe in!??


And it's like this for the rest?

There was a man whose farm was located on the banks of a flood-swollen river. As the water rose, a neighbor drove up in a Jeep, urging him to leave before the farm was flooded.

"Oh, no," said the man confidently, "God will save me."

The water rose higher, and the man was forced to move into the second story of the farmhouse. A police boat soon came, and the officers called for the man to hurry and get into their boat.

"Oh, no, that won't be necessary," the man insisted. "God will save me."

Finally the house was completely engulfed in water, and a Coast Guard helicopter swooped in to rescue the man, now perched on the roof. Again he refused. Just then, a huge wave of water swept over the house, and the man drowned.

When he got to heaven, he stormed at the Lord, asking WHY God had let him die when his faith had been so strong.

"What do you mean?" asked the heavenly Father. "I sent a Jeep, a boat, and a helicopter ... and you wouldn't budge!"


??? your gonna question what I believe in with a joke?

I was angry at God when my son was murdered but I never have stopped believing in him. While some people can help to spread the word of God, moreso some people hurt God by pushing what they believe on others though....ie: Mormons ::)

WTF gives Philbo ?!?! All I did was answer (with MY opinion) a question that was posted. I'm not trying to "convert" anyone or make anybody believe what I believe.
So why the fark are you all in my arse about what I believe in!??

??? your gonna question what I believe in with a joke?

Jeez... some people get so touchy - I just find the incredible optimism of the "power of prayer" brigade so hard to understand in the face of overwhelming evidence that it doesn't change anything.

prayer does nothing to alter the world He gave us. God made the universe and set things in motion. whether we die by a hurricane or eaten by a shark means nothing to him. the natural world is set. what we are suppose to do is look after ourselves and each other and honour God by doing good deeds.

thats how i get by understanding why God does nothing, i rationalised it by what i see. i still believe in Him though.

And it's like this for the rest?

There was a man whose farm was located on the banks of a flood-swollen river.  As the water rose, a neighbor drove up in a Jeep, urging him to leave before the farm was flooded.

"Oh, no," said the man confidently, "God will save me."

The water rose higher, and the man was forced to move into the second story of the farmhouse.  A police boat soon came, and the officers called for the man to hurry and get into their boat.

"Oh, no, that won't be necessary," the man insisted.  "God will save me."

Finally the house was completely engulfed in water, and a Coast Guard helicopter swooped in to rescue the man, now perched on the roof.  Again he refused.  Just then, a huge wave of water swept over the house, and the man drowned.

When he got to heaven, he stormed at the Lord, asking WHY God had let him die when his faith had been so strong.

"What do you mean?" asked the heavenly Father.  "I sent a Jeep, a boat, and a helicopter ... and you wouldn't budge!"



I've heard this one before.  ;D ;D ;D



Cat

"power of prayer" brigade


That's not me dude, I'm did not claim to be  part of some "brigade", I don't run around telling everyone that will listen that they need to pray for the world and everybody in it and God will "fix everything". I'm saying I believe in prayer and I believe it works because of something I experienced. As stated before I'm not trying to get anybody to believe what I believe. I was just answering a post.



Jeez... some people get so touchy


It's not so much touchy as it is I'm just not good with confrontation (got me in a LOT of trouble in school ;D) that's why I tend to stay out of the political/religious board. I want NOT to be removed from the board because of something I said.(I like it here) :)

moreso some people hurt God by pushing what they believe on others though....ie: Mormons ::)


Exactly...

I believe in God and Jesus Christ.

Tanya

It's not so much touchy as it is I'm just not good with confrontation (got me in a LOT of trouble in school ;D) that's why I tend to stay out of the political/religious board. I want NOT to be removed from the board because of something I said.(I like it here) :)

Sorry.

I guess I'd better make this into another vote for moving this to the politics/relgion board, then :-)

What is your definition of God? ???

I can't help but wonder how much worse it would have been if no one did.


That arises a question in me: If God knows everything that will happen, before it happens, what is the point of prayer? I have heard from numerous sources, "God know what will happen, and when it will happen". So, what does praying for something do? Does it get him to change his mind? Does it make him lessen everyone's pain, but only to a degree?

I am an athiest, however I am not hardcore.

I am open to some 'spiritual practices'(not Church though, *puke*), just for the fun of doing them, however, I don't believe that there is a creator deity.

If I HAD to embrace any religion, it would be Hinduism however. I like their idea of Brahma, the Absolute. Their idea of 'God' is very very different then the Western, Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea. Basically, life, nature, EVERYTHING is made up of a transcending force, hence why in English Brahma is referred to as the 'Abosolute' rather than 'God'.

I am an athiest, however I am not hardcore.

I am open to some 'spiritual practices'(not Church though, *puke*), just for the fun of doing them, however, I don't believe that there is a creator deity.

If I HAD to embrace any religion, it would be Hinduism however. I like their idea of Brahma, the Absolute. Their idea of 'God' is very very different then the Western, Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea. Basically, life, nature, EVERYTHING is made up of a transcending force, hence why in English Brahma is referred to as the 'Abosolute' rather than 'God'.
That's very interesting, ElDuderino..any books you might suggest?

That arises a question in me: If God knows everything that will happen, before it happens, what is the point of prayer? I have heard from numerous sources, "God know what will happen, and when it will happen". So, what does praying for something do? Does it get him to change his mind? Does it make him lessen everyone's pain, but only to a degree?

It is a bit of a paradox, isn't it?  That's why I wrote this parody

I believed in God all of my life - and stopped believing in God at the beginning of this year.  This is a big change.  When you have your faith and have had it all your life, and then you lose it - life is very different.  I wish I could believe and I wish I still had faith in God but I have lost that faith and I don't think I will ever get it back.

What makes you stop?

The world is a horrible place? - Hunger? Greed? Violence? Pure Evil is out their?


Own Self Destructions?

Unanswered Prayers? Pain? Pathos? Tragedy? Realization of Crushed Dreams? Unattainable Goals?


What is it?

We are all being Tested......

I can't believe how people can get the idea we are being tested, or that all of this sheesh has some sort of great purpose.

Tested? Tested for what? So millions of people, no billions, suffer, to be "Tested"? If there is a "God" and he feels the need to "test" people, then he sounds unfit for power, because that is arbitrary and cruel.

Also, if there is a God and he has all these powers over everything, he must be the biggest under-achiever of all-time, considering how bad things really are.


Also, what is the point of prayer? If he knows and hears all, wouldn't he already know what we want/feel/need? Or does he want us to pray to stroke his own ego?

I am an athiest, however I am not hardcore.

If I HAD to embrace any religion, it would be Hinduism however. I like their idea of Brahma, the Absolute. Their idea of 'God' is very very different then the Western, Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea. Basically, life, nature, EVERYTHING is made up of a transcending force, hence why in English Brahma is referred to as the 'Abosolute' rather than 'God'.


This raises an interesting point that I just started to consider.  None od the eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucionism, Shintoism) are "revealed religions".  The founders of none of them claimed any divine inspiration.  All emerged from the struggles on people seeking the meaning of life, and especially seeking to understand suffering.  Unlike the followers of the three "revealed" religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), believers in these don't consider themselves the chosen people, and as a result all are much more lax when it comes to dogma/doctrine.  They also all have a much more substantial record when it comes to peace.  None has ever tried to justify war on religious grounds (not that their followers have never participated in wars, but unlike Christians and Muslims, none has ever fought "in the name of God".  Nor do any preach eternal damnation for non-believers.  The conclusion I am drawn to is that revewaled religion can be especially dangerous.  

I appreciate the kind offer made at the start of this thread, and will assume it was offered in all sincerity, but I'll pass.


Apricot said



That arises a question in me: If God knows everything that will happen, before it happens, what is the point of prayer? I have heard from numerous sources, "God know what will happen, and when it will happen". So, what does praying for something do? Does it get him to change his mind? Does it make him lessen everyone's pain, but only to a degree?


This is an interesting question, an all knowing and all powerful God and yet many Christians (& Jews & Muslims) believe in free will.  If God knows what will happen, how can I doi anything other that what He already knows I will do, and than, how do I have free will?

Clearly, these are philosophical questions not ment to challange faith but stimulate thinking.

If there is a God, He understands why I don't believe in Him.  Has anyone read "God's Debris" by cartoonist Scott Adams ("Dilbert")?  He calls it a "thought experiment", not his actual belief, but the gist of it is that if an all-powerful God existed, the only thing He wouldn't know--and therefore the only reason to do anything-- is what would happen if He blew Himself up (the big bang?).  And the entire universe is simply the process of God reassembling Himself.  It's pretty cool, actually.





"There ain't no devil; there's just God when He's drunk"  --Tom Waits

I can't believe how people can get the idea we are being tested, or that all of this sh** has some sort of great purpose.

Tested? Tested for what? So millions of people, no billions, suffer, to be "Tested"? If there is a "God" and he feels the need to "test" people, then he sounds unfit for power, because that is arbitrary and cruel.

Also, if there is a God and he has all these powers over everything, he must be the biggest under-achiever of all-time, considering how bad things really are.


Also, what is the point of prayer? If he knows and hears all, wouldn't he already know what we want/feel/need? Or does he want us to pray to stroke his own ego?


It should be rather easy for you to believe that people say that theirs some purpose behind this.

If their isn't then I suggest 80% more or less of the population commmit suicide cause if your gonna live your life a good person and never get anything but heartache, trauma, pathos, and other sheesh on you, their better be a reward at the end,.

And my friend their is.



Jesus did nothing but suffer.....and no one realizes that.

Jesus did nothing but suffer.....and no one realizes that.




He did nothing but suffer...when He watched Mel Gibson's Passion...groan!
::)

It should be rather easy for you to believe that people say that theirs some purpose behind this.

If their isn't then I suggest 80% more or less of the population commmit suicide cause if your gonna live your life a good person and never get anything but heartache, trauma, pathos, and other sh** on you, their better be a reward at the end,.

And my friend their is.



Jesus did nothing but suffer.....and no one realizes that.






Why is it easy for me to realize there is a point to this? Your parents have sex, you develop in the womb, your born, you grow and then age and die. I see no great cosmic answer anywhere in that.

And that 'just be a good person' stuff is one of the biggest farces still perpetuated in human society. Who defines what makes you a good person? There are some people sillly enough to think going to Church weekly makes them a 'good person'. I think all a good person is, is somebody who tries to get the most enjoyment they can out of this life, rather than spending all of their time worrying about the next, and preaching to others about it therefore shitting upon what little time they have, making them miserable and worried as well.

I will make the decision to be a full-grown man(not many of these around anymore), deal with my own problems and not rely on an imaginary friend, and certainly not harass or belittle other people trying to make them have an imaginary friend. I don't need a pre-determined, packaged, set or morals written by people who were so primitive they didn't bathe on a regular basis, because I have what is called a spine, so I do not need to take the route of the spineless. I will use my own judgement, and my own BRAIN and INTELLECT, which is far more useful than any set of 'morals', to guide my way through life. If you choose not to have a spine, that is fine by me. Just don't dare to try and talk me out of ripping mine out. Have a nice day.

And don't use that 'my friend' crap on me to fool me into thinking you care about anything else but converting me to your religion.

Why is it easy for me to realize there is a point to this? Your parents have sex,

They WHAT?
:o

Your parents have sex




They WHAT?
:o


They do? No they don't!

Absolutely Vile

They do? No they don't!

Absolutely Vile



:P lol, yeah, funny guys.

Seriously though, I don't know how any of the religious folks will even begin to respond to what I said, I just unleashed it lol.

Why is it easy for me to realize there is a point to this? Your parents have sex, you develop in the womb, your born, you grow and then age and die. I see no great cosmic answer anywhere in that.

And that 'just be a good person' stuff is one of the biggest farces still perpetuated in human society. Who defines what makes you a good person? There are some people sillly enough to think going to Church weekly makes them a 'good person'. I think all a good person is, is somebody who tries to get the most enjoyment they can out of this life, rather than spending all of their time worrying about the next, and preaching to others about it therefore shitting upon what little time they have, making them miserable and worried as well.

I will make the decision to be a full-grown man(not many of these around anymore), deal with my own problems and not rely on an imaginary friend, and certainly not harass or belittle other people trying to make them have an imaginary friend. I don't need a pre-determined, packaged, set or morals written by people who were so primitive they didn't bathe on a regular basis, because I have what is called a spine, so I do not need to take the route of the spineless. I will use my own judgement, and my own BRAIN and INTELLECT, which is far more useful than any set of 'morals', to guide my way through life. If you choose not to have a spine, that is fine by me. Just don't dare to try and talk me out of ripping mine out. Have a nice day.

And don't use that 'my friend' crap on me to fool me into thinking you care about anything else but converting me to your religion.


I am one of those "religous" folks you seem to dislike so much.  Why should it matter to you how people decided to live their lives?  If you find it a waste of time, then don't spend your time that way.  I can understand you not wanting people trying to convert you...just tell them to go away.  Most people get the message.

Just because we believe in God and try to run our lives by His standards doesn't make us spineless.  In fact, it is quite the opposite.  We stand up for what we believe in front of people that ridicule us for our beliefs.  If we were spineless, we wouldn't say a thing to those people.

Don't assume that all Christians care about is converting you.  Christians are just like other people in that some actually care about you as a person just because you are another human being.  While there are some that are out to convert and that is all, that is not the majority of us so please don't generalize all Christians with the few that have obviously left a bad taste in your mouth.

I am one of those "religous" folks you seem to dislike so much.  Why should it matter to you how people decided to live their lives?  If you find it a waste of time, then don't spend your time that way.  I can understand you not wanting people trying to convert you...just tell them to go away.  Most people get the message.

Just because we believe in God and try to run our lives by His standards doesn't make us spineless.  In fact, it is quite the opposite.  We stand up for what we believe in front of people that ridicule us for our beliefs.  If we were spineless, we wouldn't say a thing to those people.

Don't assume that all Christians care about is converting you.  Christians are just like other people in that some actually care about you as a person just because you are another human being.  While there are some that are out to convert and that is all, that is not the majority of us so please don't generalize all Christians with the few that have obviously left a bad taste in your mouth.






I am sorry if it offended you personally.

I don't hate every Christian, I don't know every Christian. Do I dislike their religion? Yes! But, does that make me have something personal against every Christian out there? No, not at all.

And I am not biased against Christianity. I don't really like religion in general.

I see it as spineless because you are relying completely on someone, whom it is not even proven they exist. There is more proof that they don't exist. That is what I meant.

I realize that not EVERY Christian seeks to convert everyone in sight, but I think a LOT do. So like I have already stated, do not take it personal against you. Harmonica just got me riled up. He came across as very condenscending. I do not like all that 'my friend' stuff. So let me make this clear, I will discuss God/religion on here with religious folk, but I do NOT want your 'help'. Understood?

Now Dagwood, I hope its like you said, and now that I've made it known I don't want to be 'evangelized', people will respect that.

I am sorry if it offended you personally.

I don't hate every Christian, I don't know every Christian. Do I dislike their religion? Yes! But, does that make me have something personal against every Christian out there? No, not at all.

And I am not biased against Christianity. I don't really like religion in general.

I see it as spineless because you are relying completely on someone, whom it is not even proven they exist. There is more proof that they don't exist. That is what I meant.

I realize that not EVERY Christian seeks to convert everyone in sight, but I think a LOT do. So like I have already stated, do not take it personal against you. Harmonica just got me riled up. He came across as very condenscending. I do not like all that 'my friend' stuff. So let me make this clear, I will discuss God/religion on here with religious folk, but I do NOT want your 'help'. Understood?

Now Dagwood, I hope its like you said, and now that I've made it known I don't want to be 'evangelized', people will respect that.



I understand what you are saying completely. I knew this woman who was a Baptist. She once asked me, "What church do you go to?" assuming that I was a Christian. I told her, "I don't go to any church because I am a Pagan." She said, "Well, we can change that." EXCUSE YOU?? I wasn't out to try to convert her to my religion and I really expected the same from her. She did try-very subtlely but, naturally it didn't work. I believe that everyone has to find their own path. But I do know with many Christian faiths, trying to convert people is what they are told to do. "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them...." That is why there are missionaries. Personally, I think it is wrong. It is one thing to teach someone what you believe but it is another to try to convert them. Religious beliefs are very PERSONAL!!!




Cat

While we're on the subject of God, what happened to the Jews for Jesus topic? Was it deleted for some reason? I had an awesome post in it.

Why is it easy for me to realize there is a point to this? Your parents have sex, you develop in the womb, your born, you grow and then age and die. I see no great cosmic answer anywhere in that.

And that 'just be a good person' stuff is one of the biggest farces still perpetuated in human society. Who defines what makes you a good person? There are some people sillly enough to think going to Church weekly makes them a 'good person'. I think all a good person is, is somebody who tries to get the most enjoyment they can out of this life, rather than spending all of their time worrying about the next, and preaching to others about it therefore shitting upon what little time they have, making them miserable and worried as well.

I will make the decision to be a full-grown man(not many of these around anymore), deal with my own problems and not rely on an imaginary friend, and certainly not harass or belittle other people trying to make them have an imaginary friend. I don't need a pre-determined, packaged, set or morals written by people who were so primitive they didn't bathe on a regular basis, because I have what is called a spine, so I do not need to take the route of the spineless. I will use my own judgement, and my own BRAIN and INTELLECT, which is far more useful than any set of 'morals', to guide my way through life. If you choose not to have a spine, that is fine by me. Just don't dare to try and talk me out of ripping mine out. Have a nice day.

And don't use that 'my friend' crap on me to fool me into thinking you care about anything else but converting me to your religion.


You don't believe in God, I'm sure you have your purposes and I can relate to that. Me personally, I know theirs a God, I know theirs a Jesus, but to help you out from where your coming from, I don't believe in Heaven.

You know I believe in God, and I would like it if everyone did, or if they didn't to stop being Evil because of something.

I know what a Good person is, and yes the Bible say's a lot, but I know other "Good" people who don't believe in God, just because they believe in Right and Wrong.

Well My Friend, or my enemy, or my aquaintance, or my person I've said 2 things to on this message board - Most people aren't the believe in "Right or Wrong" type. They have to have meaning, hope and or fear. More fear than Hope. People fear Hell, it'll make them good. People hope for a Heaven it'll make them good.

YOu sound a lot like Marilyn Manson who has told stories of how Everything was made up back in the day to make people good.

Now made up or not I believe it and you don't.

I wanna think with all the hard work, all the sacrifice, and all the "good" things I've done that somehow, someday, it'll all be worth it.  I wanna know that this hatered I feel inside of myself day in a day out is all for a reason, so No I'm not trying to convince you into christianity, I'm just doing my best to know that all the Suffer me, and a lot of other people go through will one day end. Or as in my case never end, but have an answer to that question we all deal with "why?"

You don't believe in God, I'm sure you have your purposes and I can relate to that. Me personally, I know theirs a God, I know theirs a Jesus, but to help you out from where your coming from, I don't believe in Heaven.

You know I believe in God, and I would like it if everyone did, or if they didn't to stop being Evil because of something.

I know what a Good person is, and yes the Bible say's a lot, but I know other "Good" people who don't believe in God, just because they believe in Right and Wrong.

Well My Friend, or my enemy, or my aquaintance, or my person I've said 2 things to on this message board - Most people aren't the believe in "Right or Wrong" type. They have to have meaning, hope and or fear. More fear than Hope. People fear Hell, it'll make them good. People hope for a Heaven it'll make them good.

YOu sound a lot like Marilyn Manson who has told stories of how Everything was made up back in the day to make people good.

Now made up or not I believe it and you don't.

I wanna think with all the hard work, all the sacrifice, and all the "good" things I've done that somehow, someday, it'll all be worth it.  I wanna know that this hatered I feel inside of myself day in a day out is all for a reason, so No I'm not trying to convince you into christianity, I'm just doing my best to know that all the Suffer me, and a lot of other people go through will one day end. Or as in my case never end, but have an answer to that question we all deal with "why?"



Sorry, I just don't have to have an answer in my life. And you know what should motivate you to help people out and do good things? Neither punishment or reward, but the simple fact that it makes you feel good to do so.

And nice job of subtly comparing me to Marily Manson therefore trying to guilt trip me into thinking my ways of thinking are flawed because, afterall, Marilyn Manson is 'evil'.

Everything is relative, you don't "know" what is good. There are differing perspectives. In my opinion, a good person is someone who lives for this life not another one imagined, and who trys his best to have a good time without f**king someone over on purpose.

Live for today.

Jesus did nothing but suffer.....and no one realizes that.


If you believe in God and Jesus - you know that he suffered. There is a lot of suffering in the world every day, but until it happens to someone you love it really doesn't touch you or mean much to you.  Personal suffering is what hits you.  A lot of people turn to God when this happens to them.  I turned away.  I can't see how a loving God can allow so much suffering in his world - and it's only a question that came up when I saw someone I loved suffering.  A lot of people have tried to answer this for me, but I am yet to be satisfied with any answer.

I am sorry if it offended you personally.


Thanks. :)



I don't hate every Christian, I don't know every Christian. Do I dislike their religion? Yes! But, does that make me have something personal against every Christian out there? No, not at all.

And I am not biased against Christianity. I don't really like religion in general.

I see it as spineless because you are relying completely on someone, whom it is not even proven they exist. There is more proof that they don't exist. That is what I meant.

I realize that not EVERY Christian seeks to convert everyone in sight, but I think a LOT do. So like I have already stated, do not take it personal against you. Harmonica just got me riled up. He came across as very condenscending. I do not like all that 'my friend' stuff. So let me make this clear, I will discuss God/religion on here with religious folk, but I do NOT want your 'help'. Understood?

Now Dagwood, I hope its like you said, and now that I've made it known I don't want to be 'evangelized', people will respect that.


Fair enough.  Thanks for explaining it, and you don't have to worry about me.  I only tell people who ask me about God.  I don't wander the forums trying to convert. :)

... please don't generalize all Christians with the few that have obviously left a bad taste in your mouth.





Christians taste bad?  I guess that's why they survived the Roman Empire.

Sorry, I just don't have to have an answer in my life. And you know what should motivate you to help people out and do good things? Neither punishment or reward, but the simple fact that it makes you feel good to do so.

And nice job of subtly comparing me to Marily Manson therefore trying to guilt trip me into thinking my ways of thinking are flawed because, afterall, Marilyn Manson is 'evil'.

Everything is relative, you don't "know" what is good. There are differing perspectives. In my opinion, a good person is someone who lives for this life not another one imagined, and who trys his best to have a good time without f**king someone over on purpose.

Live for today.


Don't twist around what I say. I didn't try and make you out to be Marilyn Manson, I was just referring to the way he talks about how Satan, God, Jesus, and all of the other stuff were made up a long time ago by some old wisemen to fool people into doing things, and if that's true then it's the greatest holks of all time.

Your right I don't always know what's "good", but I do know what's evil, I do know what's wrong. Not many people do.



If you believe in God and Jesus - you know that he suffered. There is a lot of suffering in the world every day, but until it happens to someone you love it really doesn't touch you or mean much to you.  Personal suffering is what hits you.  A lot of people turn to God when this happens to them.  I turned away.  I can't see how a loving God can allow so much suffering in his world - and it's only a question that came up when I saw someone I loved suffering.  A lot of people have tried to answer this for me, but I am yet to be satisfied with any answer.


I used to feel like you, I hope one day you find your answer, and for the record I hope I find mine too.

Christians taste bad? I guess that's why they survived the Roman Empire.


Ok, that was a baaaad joke....but I did laugh. ;D

Ok, that was a baaaad joke....but I did laugh. ;D
Me too ;D

I don't believe in Good and Evil. I believe in Sensible and Stupid.


And it is 'hoax', not holks.

I don't believe in Good and Evil. I believe in Sensible and Stupid.


And it is 'hoax', not holks.


Glad to know that with all I put down in my post, you could notice that I'm not the world's best speller. After all what would the world be like without perfect grammar?

I don't believe in Good and Evil. I believe in Sensible and Stupid.


And it is 'hoax', not holks.

I recently referred to "the yolk of oppression"!
;D

I recently referred to "the yolk of oppression"!
;D


Those yolks will get you every time, eggs can be very oppresive.

But seriously folks...in addition to what I said above about revealed vrs non-revealed religions, I think we have to admit that any religion can be both positive and negative.  Whatever one's faith, it can be comforting and a source of strength, or it can be oppressive to others, and, especially with revealed religion, lead to feelings of superiority.  I've said this before on another thread, but I'll say it again here.  Believe what you like, but keep your religion out of OUR laws.

Those yolks will get you every time, eggs can be very oppresive.

But seriously folks...in addition to what I said above about revealed vrs non-revealed religions, I think we have to admit that any religion can be both positive and negative. Whatever one's faith, it can be comforting and a source of strength, or it can be oppressive to others, and, especially with revealed religion, lead to feelings of superiority. I've said this before on another thread, but I'll say it again here. Believe what you like, but keep your religion out of OUR laws.




Well-said mi compañero.

If my words came across as a bit harsh, I am sorry for that. Even though I still think it is useless, it is someone's own business if they are religious. It doesn't effect me. HOWEVER, as soon as they try to drag it in the public square and legislate morality, THEN it is my business.

I am agnostic with spiritual leanings. I believe there is a powerful force in nature but don't if there is/what kind of force (non/human form) created it.

I have been impressed by El Duderino's posts so far.  :)

I am agnostic with spiritual leanings. I believe there is a powerful force in nature but don't if there is/what kind of force (non/human form) created it.


That's about where I stand too.
:)

That's about where I stand too.
:)


That's cool, Maxwell. In that way, it rules nothing out.  ;D

That's cool, Maxwell. In that way, it rules nothing out.  ;D

Uh, some of these guys will tell you it rules out heaven because you haven't accepted Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.
:o

I guess most of us are in big trouble........  :-\\

Nope...

I quite liked this: THE OFFICIAL GOD FAQ

Nope...

Paul, why do you have to mince words and go on and on and on about stuff?

Paul, why do you have to mince words and go on and on and on about stuff?


Er...



(Actually, I like to leave it to the experts...!!)

I quite liked this: THE OFFICIAL GOD FAQ


And that was god's answer  ;)

LMAO@OFFICIAL GOD FAQ.

;D

FAQ.....unknown philosophy is never a fact

Their is a God...can't be scientifcially proven
Their is not a God....can't be scientifically  proven

OAQ  their we go

FAQ.....unknown philosophy is never a fact

Their is a God...can't be scientifcially proven
Their is not a God....can't be scientifically  proven

OAQ  their we go

Well, we ain't never got a photo of the old dude with a long white beard who lives in the sky, and we certainly don't see our dead relatives sitting on clouds playing harps....

Opinion

I am agnostic with spiritual leanings. I believe there is a powerful force in nature but don't if there is/what kind of force (non/human form) created it.

I have been impressed by El Duderino's posts so far. 

I am an agnostic but also a pagan... it's weird. I would love it if there was a unifying force in nature, and I think that there is but I could never prove it either to myself or to anyone else... so I just keep that thought in my head. There might be, and if there is the chances of any humans hitting the nail on the head about what this power is, are slim to none.

I used to have huge problems with Christianity but I sort of reconciled with them when I realised that I had no problem with Christ... only with the vast majority of his 'followers.' Also, I have a problem with what the religion has become compared to what it may have been. Anyhoo, it's the fundamentalists that I have huge issues with... I'm talking about the kind of people who would take advantage of a Buddhist monastary's hospitality by shacking up with them only to convert them one by one.

In any case, I wish the person who made this pole would have included Agnosticism in the pole.... How can someone be so oblivious as to think that the question of god could ever be as simple as "do you or don't you believe...?" In my opinion, it would be foolish to stubbornly defend either end of that pole, because there simply is no proof either way... If you're an athiest/theist then be one but please don't bother in arguing the question to death, because no one will ever prove anything either way.

I am an agnostic but also a pagan... it's weird. I would love it if there was a unifying force in nature, and I think that there is but I could never prove it either to myself or to anyone else... so I just keep that thought in my head. There might be, and if there is the chances of any humans hitting the nail on the head about what this power is, are slim to none.

I used to have huge problems with Christianity but I sort of reconciled with them when I realised that I had no problem with Christ... only with the vast majority of his 'followers.' Also, I have a problem with what the religion has become compared to what it may have been. Anyhoo, it's the fundamentalists that I have huge issues with... I'm talking about the kind of people who would take advantage of a Buddhist monastary's hospitality by shacking up with them only to convert them one by one.

In any case, I wish the person who made this pole would have included Agnosticism in the pole.... How can someone be so oblivious as to think that the question of god could ever be as simple as "do you or don't you believe...?" In my opinion, it would be foolish to stubbornly defend either end of that pole, because there simply is no proof either way... If you're an athiest/theist then be one but please don't bother in arguing the question to death, because no one will ever prove anything either way.


As to the existance of God you are, of course, correct.  Nevertheless, a discussion of religion can be enlightening.  While you seem to be well informed and, I suspect, widely read, I'll take the liberty of suggesting that you explore Eastern religions, which also seek what Einstien called the "unified field", the ultimate force of nature.  And while I'm at it I would suggest that the life force is the spiritual equivelant.

Uh, some of these guys will tell you it rules out heaven because you haven't accepted Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.
:o


Well, Maxwell, I always thought God was the one that chose who goes where not humans. I also believe that God would look into people's hearts and not necessarily just their minds. A person may like the idea and want it but may not neccessarily believe until proven fact. :)

Heaven is an odd concept anyway. I mean, everybody says it is a good place to go before they have even got there.

I have explored Eastern faiths, indeed, quite in depth. Hinduism, I think, is the most valuable
religion(s) on Earth. The contributions Hindu philosophy has made to other religions and to the spiritual realm in general are indispensable. Reincarnation, Karma, Dharma, and the concept of an eternal spirit (Brahma Negruna) all have their basis in acnient Hindu (Vedic/Aryan) thought. In fact, a significant portion of my own beliefs have their origin in the Vedas.

The religious culture I have chosen to be a part of is Neopaganism, and though I am agnostic in my approach to religion, our pagan holidays, myths, envirocentricity, ... etc, are an important part of my life. If there isn't a higher power, so what, at least I spent my life as a good person with the impulse to do the right thing. I will not have needed any preset moral code created by someone else to validate whether or not I led a good life.

I think I'm beginning to digress so I'll just stop here. Peace out.

I have explored Eastern faiths, indeed, quite in depth. Hinduism, I think, is the most valuable
religion(s) on Earth. The contributions Hindu philosophy has made to other religions and to the spiritual realm in general are indispensable. Reincarnation, Karma, Dharma, and the concept of an eternal spirit (Brahma Negruna) all have their basis in acnient Hindu (Vedic/Aryan) thought. In fact, a significant portion of my own beliefs have their origin in the Vedas.

The religious culture I have chosen to be a part of is Neopaganism, and though I am agnostic in my approach to religion, our pagan holidays, myths, envirocentricity, ... etc, are an important part of my life. If there isn't a higher power, so what, at least I spent my life as a good person with the impulse to do the right thing. I will not have needed any preset moral code created by someone else to validate whether or not I led a good life.

I think I'm beginning to digress so I'll just stop here. Peace out.




Great post man. Although I don't believe in God in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sense, and I do not want to be part of an organized religion, I do like the ideas put forth in the Vedas.

The Vedas talk about a trasncending self(an 'eternal spirit' if you will), which is part of Brahma(the Absolute). Brahma does not represent a creator being, or something of that nature from my experience. Brahma, the Absolute, is called Absolute in English because Brahma is everything, the universe is brahma, and this eternal spirit McDonald referred to, Brahma Negruna, our soul, is part of Brahma. It is my feeling that we may all be part of the same life force, that perhaps our transcendant selves are all part of one greater being, and each person's life is just a different persepctive of this being. When we die, we return to this state, and come back out again(re-incarnation), it is almost like a well of souls, when you are born, you are dipped out of the well, and then when you die, you are put back in, and naturally, when you are brought back out, although it is still you, you have changed, you have mixed with other elements.

You guys should check ou the subject of genetic memory. I think that everyone has the same collective memory, and perhaps these 'past life experiences' people have, are really these genetically stored memories, everyone has, but for reasons unknown, very few people re-call these.

That is my take on it anyway.

Genetic memory...

Well, I'm not too big on Jung and the reason is that he was such a racist. But if reincarnation is truth, then genetic memory would be an excellent companion to it.

I used to be somewhat Christian (slightly), but I got tired of the "BS"(for lack of a better word) and just quit.

I do still believe in God enough, but I also believe that God created evolution... otherwise, where'd those first organisms come from?  And why does anything exist anyway?  Seems like the best explanation to me for now...

  What is/are a god(s)?

  Does anyone have a definitive statement that describes God? If we can establish clearly what we are discussing then perhaps the discussions will take on new value.

  Of course, that doesn't help much. A few thoughts on the subject:

  * A God can be a psychological quirk.

  * I'm a fan of the classic, "God is that than which nothing greater in the Universe can be conceived." I interpret this to mean God=everything. In this sense, the "Universe" becomes the event and arena itself. God becomes the subjective mystery of the whole Universe. From this sense, I can even make heads and tails of the most part of Christianity, but like most of my interpretational methods, such ideas usually are met with resistance to the point of hostility.

  Enough ... for a question to which I have no answer...uh, more later...



 

   What is/are a god(s)?   


I believe a god is something that you worship. Even pop stars can be classed as gods if you worship them.

That is my definition anyway.  :)

If u dont believe in God then fine , I said I wanted to help those who wanted to be helped. If u dont want to be helped then y bother to leave such negative comments on this thread??

If u dont believe in God then fine , I said I wanted to help those who wanted to be helped. If u dont want to be helped then y bother to leave such negative comments on this thread??



Oh don't worry, that is MY way of helping, you know. Perhaps my 'negative comments' will help somebody else dodge that bullet as well(referring to your 'help').

Oh don't worry, that is MY way of helping, you know. Perhaps my 'negative comments' will help somebody else dodge that bullet as well(referring to your 'help').




or put them right in the way of.

Open minded, remember?

Genetic memory...

Well, I'm not too big on Jung and the reason is that he was such a racist. But if reincarnation is truth, then genetic memory would be an excellent companion to it.


Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.  You will find most great thinkers had some ideas that were
abhorrent, but that isn't a reason to dismiss them.  To dismiss his ideas because of his racism is not any more credible than a racist embracing them, because of his racism.

Good point.

Do i believe in God?

Not at all, not in the slightest.  Nope!

I believe in evolution not creation and I believe you are born you, you live, you die, you get eaten by worms...

and as for the comment regarding not leaving negative comments in a forum.  It was a question that asked for a response and no is a negative response so perhaps it shopld say believers only to prevent us non--believers from peeing on the parade.

and as for the comment regarding not leaving negative comments in a forum. It was a question that asked for a response and no is a negative response so perhaps it shopld say believers only to prevent us non--believers from peeing on the parade.


I think the comment about not leaving negative comments was meant that we don't direct negative comments at other members because they don't believe as we do.  If you read the thread you will find that others have said "no" they don't believe and no one has called that negative.

I am an agnostic but also a pagan... it's weird. I would love it if there was a unifying force in nature, and I think that there is but I could never prove it either to myself or to anyone else... so I just keep that thought in my head. There might be, and if there is the chances of any humans hitting the nail on the head about what this power is, are slim to none.

I used to have huge problems with Christianity but I sort of reconciled with them when I realised that I had no problem with Christ... only with the vast majority of his 'followers.' Also, I have a problem with what the religion has become compared to what it may have been. Anyhoo, it's the fundamentalists that I have huge issues with... I'm talking about the kind of people who would take advantage of a Buddhist monastary's hospitality by shacking up with them only to convert them one by one.

In any case, I wish the person who made this pole would have included Agnosticism in the pole.... How can someone be so oblivious as to think that the question of god could ever be as simple as "do you or don't you believe...?" In my opinion, it would be foolish to stubbornly defend either end of that pole, because there simply is no proof either way... If you're an athiest/theist then be one but please don't bother in arguing the question to death, because no one will ever prove anything either way.


I can appreciate this post, McDonald. The irony with Christianity is that there are 'channels' to God (Vicars, Ministers, Bishops, Archbishops and Pope) but it doesn't seem to be better off as a result. These people seem to be there to confuse the masses, not enlighten them and I believe that is why people who like the idea (maybe me and you?  ???) are put off by the whole thing. Besides, the Spanish inquisition and Galileo are events in history that further my disinterest in religion. A lot of countries/terrorists have fought for their cause in the name of religion and I just wonder whether it is something worth fighting over.  ::)

Somebody mentioned if there is a God s/he would look into the hearts of people as wll as the minds.  I am a good person who lives life to the law.  I have never hurt anybody and I never would.  I belive in peace, ove and unity yet I don't believe in God.  Should I go to hell if it exists?

I may be a none believer but that doesn't make me a bad person!

Somebody mentioned if there is a God s/he would look into the hearts of people as wll as the minds.  I am a good person who lives life to the law.  I have never hurt anybody and I never would.  I belive in peace, ove and unity yet I don't believe in God.  Should I go to hell if it exists?

I may be a none believer but that doesn't make me a bad person!

What the Christian fundamentalists say is: have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?  If not, to blazes you go!

Suicide bombers have a religion and have accepted their saviours.  If they go to heaven on that basis I wanna go to hell.

Religion stinks of hypocracy.

Suicide bombers have a religion and have accepted their saviours.  If they go to heaven on that basis I wanna go to hell.

Religion stinks of hypocracy.

The propaganda the terrorist organizations feed to suicide bombers is a distortion of Islamic faith.  The Koran does not condone the murder of innocent people.

I know that, BUT... it is still being claimed that they are doing what they do under the umbrella of faith and religion.  I also understand that it isn't right to kill people in the name of a war, holy or not but it still happens.  Does patriotism over rule religion?  mmm, maybe all soldiers are non believers. *shrugs*

I just think that religion is filled with loop holes and get out clauses.

I can appreciate this post, McDonald. The irony with Christianity is that there are 'channels' to God (Vicars, Ministers, Bishops, Archbishops and Pope) but it doesn't seem to be better off as a result. These people seem to be there to confuse the masses, not enlighten them and I believe that is why people who like the idea (maybe me and you?  ???) are put off by the whole thing. Besides, the Spanish inquisition and Galileo are events in history that further my disinterest in religion. A lot of countries/terrorists have fought for their cause in the name of religion and I just wonder whether it is something worth fighting over.  ::)


It's not worth it. There have been countless 'leaders' out there who wanted people to believe it was something to fight over because it offered to the leader a powerful element of control over his followers. A leader can get things done if he tells his followers that god wants it done. Likewise, a president can get elected if he promises his religious base that he'll be doing god's work.

How to manipulate a nation huh.... if you can't win them with your politics cast them to the fires of hell that'll bring em round!

I can appreciate this post, McDonald. The irony with Christianity is that there are 'channels' to God (Vicars, Ministers, Bishops, Archbishops and Pope) but it doesn't seem to be better off as a result. These people seem to be there to confuse the masses, not enlighten them and I believe that is why people who like the idea (maybe me and you?  ???) are put off by the whole thing. Besides, the Spanish inquisition and Galileo are events in history that further my disinterest in religion. A lot of countries/terrorists have fought for their cause in the name of religion and I just wonder whether it is something worth fighting over.  ::)


That's almost the whole reason I started Absorbism... although other people seem to have had the same idea  ;).

That's almost the whole reason I started Absorbism... although other people seem to have had the same idea ;).


Please, elaborate a bit further on Absorbism.

Somebody mentioned if there is a God s/he would look into the hearts of people as wll as the minds.  I am a good person who lives life to the law.  I have never hurt anybody and I never would.  I belive in peace, ove and unity yet I don't believe in God.  Should I go to hell if it exists?

I may be a none believer but that doesn't make me a bad person!


Yes, I mentioned this aspect, Cheeky Ferret and I believe it to it's entirety. What would a loving God find satisfying in torturing people who have lived a decent life on Earth, regardless of 'faith'? I believe that religion uses antithesis a lot (good/evil, angels/demons, perfection/sin . . .) and so naturally, if there is a good place to go to when we die, you can bet there's a bad one as well).

Yes, I mentioned this aspect, Cheeky Ferret and I believe it to it's entirety. What would a loving God find satisfying in torturing people who have lived a decent life on Earth, regardless of 'faith'? I believe that religion uses antithesis a lot (good/evil, angels/demons, perfection/sin . . .) and so naturally, if there is a good place to go to when we die, you can bet there's a bad one as well).


It's hypocracy to the hilt.  If I'm going to be punished because I don't believe then I may as well be a bad person if I am going south either way!

It's hypocracy to the hilt.  If I'm going to be punished because I don't believe then I may as well be a bad person if I am going south either way!

Absolutely. Essentially what Christianity is saying is morality (despite it giving us the ten commandments as a guide to proper living) is no means of survival. The Ten Commandments is known as 'The Mosaic Law' (from Moses) and apparently (according to the religion I was involved with) was defunct when Jesus got nailed up - the simple law 'treat others as you would like to be treated yourself' (from Jesus's  Sermon on the mount) was the replacement.

I am a Philosophy student, and as such have learnt a friggin ton about god  ::)

However i still Believe, because there is no logical explanation for how things came to be.
I don't believe in any sort of religion and i don't believe that jesus christ died on the cross for our sins, IN MY OPINIO (before i get yelled at lol) most holy books are just a load of b/s.. of course many people believe every word they say, and some slightly smarter people take them with a pinch of salt. They are good for guiding people in there life.

But yeah, a god is the only logical explanation for why things 'are' and even that isn't very logical.

But it will do for now  ;)

Evolution is a logical breakdown of how things got to be where that are and how it probably was in the very beginning, but there is still that one question of where everything came from to begin with...? I think a higher power had something to do with it. However, I think that any religion man has ever made is probably far off from the truth because we have this egocentricity, that everything must be the way we see it. What if there are creatures in other worlds wha are as intelligent if not more intelligent than we? What do they have to say on the matter? Of course... they would as much a chance of getting it right as anyone here would. If Earth and humans are the main focus of creation and god then why make other planets to float around the sun with us? Why make worm-like creatures that may have existed on Mars? If we ever build a spacecraft that can travel at many times the speed of light, then maybe we will be able to check out one of the neighbouring galaxies. Who knows?

I'd agree with all of that, McD... except the bit about a higher power: 'cause all that's doing is taking a simple "where did stuff come from?" and turning it into a "where did something powerful and clever enough to make that stuff come from?", which is adding several magnitudes of complexity into the system.  Which seems even more unlikely to me.

Even a blind man could see that the theory of evolution is far more logical than the theory of creationism.  Science is a more convincing arguement that the Bible!!!!

Dunno if you were referring to me there man.

But just to clarify, i believe evolution, like god didnt make the world or anything, in fact i can't think of much it would have done, however the existance of god is impossible not to prove, impossible to prove as well.. may as well keep an open mind though.

If I meant you I would have said so!  and I am not a man  ;)

I won't sit on the fence.  I don't think there is a God.  I can't prove there isn't one and they can't prove there is one but in all honesty my arguement is stronger looking at it logically.  Besides, there are so many religions and cults believing in different things that it is beyond ridicuolus.

I may start my own cult.  Join me?

I wish there were an option for "Maybe,� perhaps because I'm open to the possibility if presented with evidence.

See, I consider myself agnostic.

Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 – 1895) came up with the word ‘agnostic’ while searching for a term to describe his own beliefs. He did not consider himself “an atheist, a theist, a pantheist; a materialist or an idealist; a Christian…� and while he had much in common with freethinkers, he wanted a term to describe himself more accurately. His difference with the people who gave themselves the above labels was that he did not feel certain of his knowledge- or ‘gnosis’- that he “had successfully solved the problem of existence.�

His ideal was that everyone should be able to give a reason for his faith, or simply not claim it as his own. He said it this way: “In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable�. To put it into brief, modern words, he might have said, “Don’t claim it if you cannot explain it�.

Huxley understood and acepted that the new term would have different meanings depending on the understanding and intellect of the individual. Furthermore, he knew that the meaning for each individual would change as time goes on, to incorporate new findings in understanding or in science. He said, “That which is unproved today may be proved, by the help of new discoveries, tomorrow.�

Huxley defined agnositicism as follows, and this is perhaps, the truest definition of the term today: “… it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism.� It is not merely a matter of whether or not one knows if God exists, but it is a matter of whether one can objectively define his belief, whether in God or in anything else.

Huxley was a gifted speaker, and was known, in the course of his many debates, to quietly state that he knew nothing about the supernatural about which his opponents claimed firm belief, then, somewhat louder, to add, “And neither do you.�